What do you NOT like about Apologia Science

[Caryl]

I read many positive reviews about Apologia, but rarely a negative one. Is the program that good? We tried general science last year and my kids were bored, but I've read that this course is the least liked. I'm also wondering how well the Apologia sequence prepared for AP tests (from folks that have BTDT).

 

Thanks!

[Lori D.]

I read many positive reviews about Apologia, but rarely a negative one. Is the program that good? We tried general science last year and my kids were bored, but I've read that this course is the least liked.

 

 

Well, it's important to preface my comments: we've always been VERY visual/hands-on people when it comes to science, so the extremely "textbooky--heavy vocabulary memorization--notetaking" style of learning of Apologia is really NOT going over too well here -- especially for ME! (lol)

 

We're working our way through Apologia Biology (last year AND this year -- 9th/10th grades) as our first Apologia, and while there's nothing wrong with the content, I really dislike it. It's working okay for the older auditory son, but younger son and myself are both very visual and hands-on, so the very "textbook-y" approach is not the best fit for us after all the *great* visual books and loads of hands-on experiments we've done in all the years up until now.

 

Here's what I don't like and why:

- too wordy -- the author knows his science, but is NOT a good textbook writer

- very vocabulary memorization-heavy (with terms you'll never use again unless you take college microbiology) -- rather than a focus on hands-on experiments and the how/why of concepts/processes

- not enough experiments

- and what experiments there are have been dull (at least until we got to dissections)

- not enough visuals or sidebars to break the material into more manageable "bites"

- poor layout

(the book is wide and the text runs from margin to margin, which is both visually tiring and it makes you lose which line to pick up when your eye has to jump down and back to the far left to pick up the next line of type

 

 

 

I'm also wondering how well the Apologia sequence prepared for AP tests (from folks that have BTDT).

 

I would think all that memorization, college-like text style, note-taking practice, and tests would be helpful in preparing a student for an AP course.

 

 

 

Last year was the first year we tried Apologia -- and it was the first year in our (then) 8 years of homeschooling where we really disliked science, and had to *make* ourselves do it. Even then, we only got through the first 10 of the 16 chapters. We're finishing it this year, folding in the second son for these last 6 chapters, so I'll still have to go through the "micro" biology portion (cells, fungi, etc.) with him next year -- BUT we're going to use the second-hand Prentice Hall high school biology textbook instead, and just read a few sections on evolution out of the Apologia Biology.

 

Since neither of our boys have expressed interest in pursuing the science or math fields, I'd rather we skip the vocabulary and boring presentation of Apologia, and learn the real/practice science stuff of processes, cause/effect, and see it for ourselves with experiments. I'm already trying to decide what alternate route we'll take for Chemistry...

 

Whew! I didn't realize I had such a big "rant" building up about Apologia -- sorry your post released it and got in the line of fire! :tongue_smilie: Once again, nothing wrong with Apologia's content -- it's just Apologia's presentation doesn't really fit *our* family. BEST of luck in finding what works for your family! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[SonshineLearner]

I've bought some of their books; what I don't like is reading the author's opinions on his website. He comes off as a little cocky to me about his opinions on things like vaccinations. Since many homeschoolers think for themselves about issues, whether they decide to vaccinate or not, I don't think that he should come off as he does.....

Oh well, the books look good...

[Caryl]

I had heard that the new editions improved the layout and graphic design of the book to make for easier reading. My General Science is the first edition, and my daughters also complained about the long line length.

[Lori D.]

Yep.

[Jeannie in NJ]

my dd, age 14, really dislikes Apologia Physical Science. She says that it is just too wordy, she believes that he (Dr. Wile) could have gotten the information across with a lot less words. She says that she likes the summaries of each chapter that are located in the back of the book, that the summaries really teach the facts without all the unneccesary words.

[periwinkle]

so I won't list the negatives; however, Lori D. has given you a great summary of Apologia's limitations.

 

As far as the AP tests, I believe you will be better off picking one of the approved AP textbooks from the college board if this is your goal. IF you choose to use Apologia, you should be prepared to work through BOTH the introductory and advanced courses (this is possible in one year-one book per semester) PLUS a prep test book. I know one poster's son did this successfully with chemistry; biology would be more difficult to supplement with evolution. Has anyone done this with physics?

[Miss Marple]

I'm not an Apologia fan. So far we have used Physical Science, Biology, and Chemistry and I have previewed the General Science text. I have issues with all of them but I do think they can play a positive role in the homeschool science market. The texts are easy to teach although most of what I see and hear is that the student really works independently. However, I don't think the skill level they work towards is equivalent to a good public school text. The tests mirror the examples in the textbook and require little critical thinking or application of previously learned knowledge.

 

We are now using BJU Biology and Singapore Chemistry. The texts are much more engaging, include applications of science (lacking in the Apologia series - at least the editions we used), and require the student to think through various multi-step processes. In addition, they offer a lot more in the way of charts, graphs, and illustrations for interpretation which is a major part of the science section on the ACT. My oldest did Apologia and was blown away by the science section the first time he took the ACT. After that, we added in "science interpretation".

 

The problem with using something that is written for schools is that it requires a little more work to pull together a course, put together a laboratory, etc. Also, many moms are unfamiliar or insecure with science and, unless they outsource it, many families don't get science done because of the effort involved. This is where Apologia can be a good program.

 

Another big negative, IMO, about Apologia Biology is the lack of human body unless one wants to devote 2 years to the study. We did the first text and then used TTC's Understanding the Human Body to complete it.

 

In making your decision, consider your own background, your ability to commit time and effort, and what your goals are for science. Having been a science major, I cannot agree with those who say Apologia is a stellar educational program. But I'm not convinced, either, that a student cannot succeed in college science without a stellar science program.

[chanda7]

After so many glowing recommendations, I always pick up these books at curriculum fairs to flip through, only to put them back down again. They just look like a standard textbooks to me, nothing special aside from the Christian perspective. My children are in the grammar stage, and I just didn't feel these would appeal to them at all.

[Michelle in GA]

Well, one VERY positive review of Apologia comes from the lady on this board(I don't remember her name), whose son was just accepted to MIT! Her son used the Apologia texts.He did use both books(regular and advanced) in one year. He aced the AP exams! I think this is wonderful news for those who like Apologia, but fear it isn't as good as secular texts.

[Lori D.]

Hey Cynthia, do you think I should take a look at BJU Chemistry? I've always pulled together our science labs/equipment, and love being involved in doing the science along with the boys. Any suggestions links for looking at it? Thanks! Lori D.

[Beth in SW WA]

After piecing together a Bio course w/ PH Bio Exploring Life by Dr. Campbell, I can see why folks buy Apologia. Its pick up & go. We are enjoying Bio EL, but it's more work to assemble the program in the beginning.

 

We are doing Apologia Chem w/ TTC Chemistry lectures next year. It's so nice to buy one kit w/ everything you need.

 

We had great success w/ Apologia General Science in 7th.

[Miss Marple]

I have only seen a very old copy of BJU chemistry. It was, IMO, user unfriendly. I know that they have revamped all their sciences since that time but I haven't seen the chemistry. I liked the biology, but it was taught in our co-op by a retired vet. I think that helped the kids.

 

I'm teaching Singapore chemistry right now and really like it. The only problem is that there is no teacher manual, hence no solutions to the text problems. I'm simply making mine up as I go. The test and workbook have an answer key. I may end up using Singapore biology next time around because our vet will no longer be with us.

 

If you got the DVD program with the BJU chemistry I think you would have an excellent program that is very do-able.

[Caryl]

I appreciate all the feedback thus far! I guess what holds me back from Apologia is that it seems boring. Those who have used Apologia-- did it foster a fascination and interest in the natural world in your kids? Or was it just an easy way to get science under their belts?

 

It may not be fair to judge the whole program from the General Science book, but I was under-impressed. My husband and I are both science-types, and we live in a beautiful place (central Idaho) and spend quite a bit of time outdoors. My kids know about geology and fluvial geomorphology (easy to see 'cause we have so few trees!), and weather, and animals, and plants. They are inquisitive and interested in their surroundings.

 

I want them to make connections in science, to become good observers of the natural world and to come up with reasonable "I wonder why" questions, and know how to find the answers if they want to.

 

I appreciate that Apologia is "get and go," but it seems like there must be a better way to continue my kid's love of making observations, wondering why, and finding answers.

 

The AP test is not that critical to our schooling. I'm not trying to guide my kids into science (so far it seems I have more artsy and literature types), but I do want them to have the ability to appreciate the world around them, and to be able to intelligently read science reporting. And if one of them shows a bent or interest in it, I want to have given them enough preparation so as to not hold them back.

 

One of my favorite classes in science was a graduate-level plant ecology class. We read seminal papers and recent papers and DISCUSSED them! It was a "great books" approach to science, and it did more to enhance my scientific thinking than any of the memorization-based classes I took as an undergrad. All my other favorite classes were field biology classes, but I have yet to find a homeschool field biology curriculum (other than the Charlotte Mason nature walk approach- which I think is excellent for younger kids, and is essentially what we have been doing).

 

Any thoughts?

[anissarobert]

Hello from another Idahoan! (Although it isn't nearly as pretty down here in Boise.) My dd is in 9th grade and is using Apologia Biology. As you noted nearly everyone seems to be using it here. I have a degree in Philosophy, and neither dd or I are science types. I am worried that the book is not thourough enough and I am planning to supplement it, but I have to have the handholding because I have no background in science. However, my dd thinks it is challenging and she is learning. We have always done science TWTM way before this, so this is her first traditional science course.

[Kareni]

It was a "great books" approach to science, and it did more to enhance my scientific thinking than any of the memorization-based classes I took as an undergrad. All my other favorite classes were field biology classes, but I have yet to find a homeschool field biology curriculum (other than the Charlotte Mason nature walk approach- which I think is excellent for younger kids, and is essentially what we have been doing).

 

Any thoughts?

 

It occurs to me that you may wish to read Nan in Mass's posts about her use of the Mother of Divine Grace Natural History syllabus. Here are a few threads that mention it:

 

Anyone used the MODG Natural History Syllabus?..

 

More high school science questions

 

and

 

Making your own science

 

Regards,

Kareni

[FloridaLisa]

I guess what holds me back from Apologia is that it seems boring. Those who have used Apologia-- did it foster a fascination and interest in the natural world in your kids? Or was it just an easy way to get science under their belts?[?QUOTE]

 

My oldest three have enjoyed Apologia biology the most. That could partly be because I've put together a study group for the labs. More than that, though, they seem to have found the text and labs interesting. I've added in several hands-on projects also and there are many books you could add in.

 

It may not be fair to judge the whole program from the General Science book, but I was under-impressed.

 

General Science is my least favorite in the Apologia series of all that we've used so far (all of the elementary, General, Physical Science, biology, chemistry). I don't consider it essential at all in the middle grades.

 

 

I appreciate that Apologia is "get and go," but it seems like there must be a better way to continue my kid's love of making observations, wondering why, and finding answers.

 

See, to me this is where a good teacher comes in. It's not so much what material is used as *how* it is used. I'm not even that much of a science geek, but I loved adding in science in the news and many hands-on projects to our biology. And the four dissections in Apologia are fodder for any curious student. Apologia never squashed ds1's love for science. He's also the kind of kid that would look for bugs and snakes while he was supposed to be playing left field. :001_smile: But, admittedly, I haven't looked at a wide range of high school science texts, though he went on to use Campbell's for AP bio.

 

One of my favorite classes in science was a graduate-level plant ecology class. We read seminal papers and recent papers and DISCUSSED them! It was a "great books" approach to science, and it did more to enhance my scientific thinking than any of the memorization-based classes I took as an undergrad. All my other favorite classes were field biology classes, but I have yet to find a homeschool field biology curriculum . . .

 

Oh my. My kids would *love* some natural history or field biology. But then, can't you continue doing that on your own anyway, even if you are using a text? One of the classes I considered for ds1 was a master naturalist series through our local parks, but we haven't found the time. Perhaps there is the same type program near you (somewhat like the master gardener program IIRC).

 

HTH,

Lisa

[cathmom]

My son did Apologia Biology and Chemistry. I believe he thought they were boring, but he usually got 100 on the tests. His main complaint was Dr. Wile constantly writing, "But we'll get to that in a later chapter..."

[Christine]

I'm going to jump in here. . .

 

I use Apologia, and I like them, but, of course there are things we don't like about them.

 

I think a good number of the things we don't like have been mentioned.

 

They have brought out a number of great conversations amongst me and mine. My eldest has been known to do a lot of research, on his own, based on comments in the text.

 

I'm not partial to religion being thrown into a science book. Which I find terribly funny, as I use all the Apologia science books -- and, to top it off, they are all very "young earth" and I am *not*.

 

Sometimes, we have gone to the website to find information on a subject discussed in the books, and they in turn send us to a site for further research. . . I have found a number of those referrals to be to "biased sites" (sites where it is heavily evident where the author stands before you even enter). Which I just think is fundamentally wrong in the field of science.

 

However, these books have lead to great discussions regarding religious beliefs, biases, statistics, critical thought, etc.

 

And, overall, I like their program the best of all the others I've looked at, even with all their "faults".

[Miss Marple]

My son,, at the time, had no problem with the texts. He put in minimal work and got excellent scores - that was his idea of success. Since he's home from college (pursuing a science/engineering field) on break, we have had some discussion of this subject because I'm looking towards a physics program for his younger brother.

 

Several things have been brought up. He looks back at the texts and thinks they were probably fine, but they didn't interest him and therefore he wasn't very motivated to really learn the material. He said it was easy to learn for the test and then forget it (my main gripe about Apologia). His college texts, he says, are much more interesting. I do think, though, that his experience with lectures now is adding to his interest. I know that a good science professor can really liven up a course. And I don't think I quality for a really interesting science teacher.

[Rhondabee]

I do think, though, that his experience with lectures now is adding to his interest. I know that a good science professor can really liven up a course. And I don't think I quality for a really interesting science teacher.

 

One of the items on my "If I ruled the world wishlist" is that Jay Wile had actually taped himself giving the lectures that are in the Apologia books, rather than writing them out. Then, ds could watch the "lecture", and a simpler book could review the main points, with the study guide questions sprinkled throughout the chapter (rather than all at the end).

 

My only real "complaint" (easily dealt with) is that my ds tends to imitate Wile's writing style excessively.

[Beth in SW WA]

I do think, though, that his experience with lectures now is adding to his interest. I know that a good science professor can really liven up a course. And I don't think I quality for a really interesting science teacher.

 

I can't imagine doing Bio w/o the Thinkwell Bio lectures. They are wonderful! Ds gets more out of them than his text. Dr. Wolfe makes science come alive.

 

For chem, we will use TTC Chemistry lectures taught by Frank Cardulla. I bought them already and hope to watch them w/ him.

 

Lectures are paramount for me. Maybe its because I am visual/auditory and my kids are also. We use lectures often to help make a subject come alive.

[Storm Bay]

I've looked at it at a homeschool fair and wasn't thrilled with it. What I really want for high school biology hasn't yet been written, and that is a biology text without all that interpretation--I'd like to teach that separately. Plus one that isn't so wordy as Apologia, etc.

 

We have not yet decided on which biology to use, but are leaning towards Campbell's at the moment. However, we have a couple of years to decide since we'll do it in dd's junior year, unless she whips through Chem & Physics faster than I anticipate based on her 13 yo work ethics.

[Lori D.]

These look AWESOME Beth! Just what we needed without me realizing it! THANKS!! Big hugs, Lori

[lwilliams1922]

DD is doing apologia physical science this year.

 

she's a visual learner/right brained. This course is not interesting to her at all. She doesnt seem to be digesting the materal either.

 

Genereally she LOVES vocab but the words in the chapter just don't paint a picture for her to grasp.

 

We are plugging though it because we started but without telling her, I would love to find an alternative.

 

She has more intrest in writing and language and I don't see Science and math in her future (beyond any collge requirements).

 

I looked briefly at the teaching company web site and I wonder...

 

Is it feasible to just use the video lecture for science and no text book?

I would rather her enjoy physical science then complete a text book that is dry.

 

any thoughts?

[Melissa in CA]

My older son used Apologia's Biology and disliked it very much. He found it dull. It needed more human body stuff (anatomy).

 

My middle son used the Apologia Physical Science and the Biology. He liked the Phy Sci. OK, but very much disliked the Biology. At the time he was doing the Biology though, he was also completing BJU's Chemistry on HomeSat (dvd). BJU's DVD class was 100x better and more interesting than Apologia's Biology. After using a BJU course, he had zero desire to pick up another Apologia testbook. It took me fighting him tooth and nail to get his Apologia Biology done.

 

I now own BJU's Life Science, Space & Earth Science, Physical Science, Biology, Chemistry, and Physics all on DVD. Starting next year, my youngest ds will be doing BJU all the way. ;) In my opinion, Apologia doesn't even compare.

 

How's that for a negative review? :D

[Caryl]

...At the time he was doing the Biology though, he was also completing BJU's Chemistry on HomeSat (dvd). BJU's DVD class was 100x better and more interesting than Apologia's Biology. After using a BJU course, he had zero desire to pick up another Apologia testbook. It took me fighting him tooth and nail to get his Apologia Biology done.

 

 

 

Melissa - are these the DIVE series with David Shormann as the instructor?

[mamaof2andtwins]

Raising my hand for my son! He disliked General Science. We only finished half the book. He didn't feel the chapters were broken down into logical increments. He felt there was a lot one day, and then not a lot on another day. He didn't care for the general layout of the book.

 

This year we are using BJU Physical Science, and he really likes that. We are using it on our own without the DVD's. I am thinking about doing BJU's biology next year with the DVD's, but the cost is quite a bit for something I have to lease. I am not sure what we will do.

 

Jennie

[Rhondabee]

Melissa,

 

Which BJU would you recommend for someone who had finished Apologia Physical: BJU Physical or Biology?

 

Thanks,

Rhonda

[Melissa in CA]

Melissa - are these the DIVE series with David Shormann as the instructor?

 

No, we have the BJU HomeSat Satellite (which is ending this May). The classes were taught by actual BJU teachers. These would be the same classes as one would get if using BJU's DVD kits listed in their [bJU's] catalog.

 

The DVD option is a lease. It is pretty expensive. If you have two children you could combine to use it at the same time, that would be ideal. If I did not already have the classes recorded from our Satellite, I would not hesitate to lease the DVDs though. I like them that much. Plus, when you calculate the cost of all the books/tests/quizzes & schedule they provide within the total cost, your really not paying as much as it seems. The Physics teacher/student schedule packet and note taking sheets alone were, if I recall correctly, over 900 pages. I, using the satellite, had to pay $40 for them, but I believe they come with the DVD package already. So, $399 for ONE class seems like a lot, and for some it just is. But when you start breaking it down, it's not so terribly bad for those who can afford it. I feel the teacher instruction is well worth the price. AND, you can sell your TE's, and anything else you do not need to keep, to recover some of your initial cost. The DVDs, of course, belong to BJU.

 

I wish BJU would do away with the lease option and allow people to actually purchase the DVD classes. There are rumors that, since they have had to cancel their satellite service, that they are looking into another way to provide classes. Possibly online video or some such venue. Perhaps they can offer their individual course cheaper that way.

[Melissa in CA]

Melissa,

 

Which BJU would you recommend for someone who had finished Apologia Physical: BJU Physical or Biology?

 

Thanks,

Rhonda

 

I wouldn't think a child would need to retake Physical Science after using Apologia, so I would say go with the Biology. My son went right into BJU's Chemistry after Apologia Physical Science with no problems.

[Rhondabee]

Thanks!

[Melissa in CA]

Thanks!

 

I wanted to add that the Biology teacher, Mrs. Ericson, is a hoot! She is young and very energetic. Though we haven't used the class yet, I have watched several of the classes out of sheer interest. She's a wonderful, interesting teacher. Miss Lacy, who normally helps her, is teaching this years Satellite Biology LINC class as well as Physical Science. She is also a young, interesting, energetic and fun ( I am currently taping her physical science course). I'm not sure which teacher they will have for the Biology DVD option, but I don't think you could go wrong with either of them. Mrs Ericson is not teaching this year....I can't remember why.

 

Anyhow, I hope that if you decide to go the BJU route that it works out as wonderfully for you as it has for us.

 

BJUs 2009 catty will be available in March. Look for new long distance options. Perhaps they'll offer something internet down-loadable and cheaper than the DVD option.

 

Blessings,

[StaceyinLA]

And the wordy complaint makes sense, but, in Wile's defense, he did write these for the overwhelming majority of hs students whose parents are NOT science majors. He wanted something that kids could pick up and learn on their own without the benefit of a teacher filling in the gaps. And yes, when you use a standard text, you will have to fill in the gaps. A standard text is written for a classroom and with the intention of having a teacher give a lecture. Apologia is written strictly for a student who has no one to fill in those gaps.

 

For some, that means wordiness and some unnecessary reading. For others, it is a lifesaver. I fell somewhere in the middle, but my kids have enjoyed Apologia. Oldest dd took the Bio and Advanced Bio and had no problem passing the CLEP for her college bio course. And yes, I think if you want to do AP you may want your student doing both the regular and advanced books, but, for general college entry, I believe the regular books are fine (possibly with the exception of the bio due to the lack of anatomy). FWIW though, I found that my dd learned a lot more in Bio than I ever did. There are many ways to add in human body study. His bio book covers a lot of material.

 

Also, I think Jay Wile would consider Chemistry his "best" text. He is a chemist after all, and that is the book he started with. My niece is a high school Chemistry teacher (and a Chemistry major) in the Katy, Texas, area and she was impressed with the book.