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Seriously what is wrong with (some) people?


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#51 Mergath

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:53 AM

If they had zero success, how did they get into that class?  That's what I don't understand.  They are forking off and bragging.  That is all there is to it I think.

 

I know there are tons of other reasons and scenarios, but not in this case.

 

Stuff happens. You can do really well in school for years and then life decides to drop kick you and suddenly you're struggling. It's not all that unusual.


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#52 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:54 AM

And it's impossible that something could have happened to one of them since class begun that's now causing them to struggle?

 

I understand what you're saying, but I think that, given that you don't know these kids or their situation, calling them losers is unnecessarily harsh.

 

Ok..so now you are telling me that anytime someone says something ridiculous I must assume they have some situation I need to be sympathetic towards?  No, I think sometimes some people have craptastic attitudes.  Maybe it comes from being handed everything on a silver platter.

 

It's hard for me to try to be sympathetic towards that kind of attitude. 

 

In general I think I am pretty sympathetic and I do know what hardship is.  But sometimes I just think what on earth is wrong with people's attitudes?! 



#53 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:55 AM

Stuff happens. You can do really well in school for years and then life decides to drop kick you and suddenly you're struggling. It's not all that unusual.

 

And you think I have no idea about that?

 

My life has been one big fat pile of struggle.  I still don't have that kind of craptastic attitude. 



#54 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:57 AM

Maybe they are just young and silly compared to you.


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#55 Mergath

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:58 AM

And you think I have no idea about that?

 

My life has been one big fat pile of struggle.  I still don't have that kind of craptastic attitude. 

 

Calling college kids you don't know weird losers because of a thirty second interaction in an elevator is pretty craptastic. I won't argue with you about it any more, though.


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#56 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:58 AM

Then they should not be teaching it. Period. Not even at elementary level.

 

Parents would not hire a violin teacher who said "violin is not really my thing". Why would that be acceptable in a school teacher?

 

Here is one link about the math anxiety being contagious. No time to google for the original article.

 

https://www.noodle.c...e-contagious132

 

Totally agree.  Attitudes seemed to have changed towards teachers since I was a young student.  I only have my parents to go by, but they felt like teachers were the expert.  You don't question them.  Now I think people do question and do demand more.



#57 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:00 PM

Maybe they are just young and silly compared to you.

 

Probably

 

I'd be very disappointed if my kid talked like that.  I actually did tell him about it and told him there is nothing cool about their attitude. 



#58 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:02 PM

Calling college kids you don't know weird losers because of a thirty second interaction in an elevator is pretty craptastic. I won't argue with you about it any more, though.

 

Their attitude is craptastic.  Yes I stand by that comment.

 

If all four of them have some extenuating circumstance (doubtful) then I apologize for thinking so.



#59 Catwoman

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:03 PM

Ok..so now you are telling me that anytime someone says something ridiculous I must assume they have some situation I need to be sympathetic towards? No, I think sometimes some people have craptastic attitudes. Maybe it comes from being handed everything on a silver platter.

It's hard for me to try to be sympathetic towards that kind of attitude.

In general I think I am pretty sympathetic and I do know what hardship is. But sometimes I just think what on earth is wrong with people's attitudes?!


I can't speak for anyone else, but my thought is that I have certainly had moments where I was a college student joking with friends that probably made me sound like I had a terrible attitude toward my classes. At other times, I was a lot more serious and if you'd heard me talking at those times, I would have sounded like a model student. I'm not going to say which one was the "real" me, because the truth was somewhere in the middle. ;)

Maybe what people are saying is that it's hard to judge anyone based on a minute in the elevator, especially a couple of goofy college guys. :)
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#60 Catwoman

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

Maybe they are just young and silly compared to you.


I was thinking the same thing. Sometimes I think it would be nice to feel that silly and carefree again.

#61 Murphy101

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

And it is especially detrimental when this attitude about math emanates from the teacher. There have been studies about how contagious it is when elementary math teachers dislike math or are afraid of it - and even voice that out loud.
Sadly, that seems to be rather prevalent.


I have flat out forbidden certain phrases from my house. To the point that even if visitors say them, I will stop them, correct them and tell I don't allow that talk in my house.

Phrases such as:

I'm just not a math person. Some people just aren't math people.

It's a dumb thing to say. There's no such thing as Math People or science people. Or essay people. Or Readers. It's not an ethnicity! There's people who work to learn math or whatever subject. That's it. Some have to work harder than others. But everyone who does math is just someone who works to learn math. I have dyscalculia. Don't tell me I'm not a math person just bc it takes me three times as long to do the problem. And no, I don't allow calculators in my home school either.

I also don't allow phrases like "____ is hard." It's not hard. It's time consuming. It's confusing. It's new. It's boring. It's a lot of things. But it is not something that they can't do.

It turns learning into some kind of ridiculous identity crisis that it absolutely does not have to be, but once a difficulty becomes not a challenge to be gotten through but an inherent part of who someone is, it's damned hard to ever convince that person it's even a possibility. It's absolutely a form of learned helplessness in my not so humble opinion and that's why I won't allow it in my house.
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#62 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:05 PM

Its human nature to laugh when uncomfortable.

Remember, these are students who have been on easy street for a long time..they have to move from being spoon fed pap to chewing solids. And grades...earning grades and asking questions is new after attending K12 where you were told to be quiet and go sit down, while students who really need the teacher are in reteach. When I hear that carp from high schoolers, I tell them its free tutoring at my house after school. One kid did take me up on it for A2, and he grads college this Spring. My neighbor kid did not, she is now a drop out from private U with the loans to show for it.
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#63 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:06 PM

I can't speak for anyone else, but my thought is that I have certainly had moments where I was a college student joking with friends that probably made me sound like I had a terrible attitude toward my classes. At other times, I was a lot more serious and if you'd heard me talking at those times, I would have sounded like a model student. I'm not going to say which one was the "real" me, because the truth was somewhere in the middle. ;)

Maybe what people are saying is that it's hard to judge anyone based on a minute in the elevator, especially a couple of goofy college guys. :)

 

yes, I can see this

 

Sure, I'm judging.  I just wonder where the bad attitude comes from.  It's strange to me.  It could be protective talk for feeling bad about flunking.  HOWEVER, nobody has to talk about their grades to others either.  Nobody asked what others got.  The talk was this very "dude, I'm the coolest because I got a 35"...and "way to go dude"...  

 

Maybe I'm just too old.  LOL



#64 regentrude

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:08 PM

I have flat out forbidden certain phrases from my house. To the point that even if visitors say them, I will stop them, correct them and tell I don't allow that talk in my house.

Phrases such as:

I'm just not a math person. Some people just aren't math people.

It's a dumb thing to say. There's no such thing as Math People or science people. Or essay people. Or Readers. It's not an ethnicity! There's people who work to learn math or whatever subject. That's it. Some have to work harder than others. But everyone who does math is just someone who works to learn math. I have dyscalculia. Don't tell me I'm not a math person just bc it takes me three times as long to do the problem. And no, I don't allow calculators in my home school either.

I also don't allow phrases like "____ is hard." It's not hard. It's time consuming. It's confusing. It's new. It's boring. It's a lot of things. But it is not something that they can't do.

It turns learning into some kind of ridiculous identity crisis that it absolutely does not have to be, but once a difficulty becomes not a challenge to be gotten through but an inherent part of who someone is, it's damned hard to ever convince that person it's even a possibility. It's absolutely a form of learned helplessness in my not so humble opinion and that's why I won't allow it in my house.

 

Absolutely agree.

And I cringe every time a parent on this board talks about a kid who is not even 14 "he is not a STEM person" or "She is a humanities girl". Those labels, especially when given by parents, tend t become self fulfilling prophesies.


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#65 Catwoman

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:09 PM

yes, I can see this

Sure, I'm judging. I just wonder where the bad attitude comes from. It's strange to me. It could be protective talk for feeling bad about flunking. HOWEVER, nobody has to talk about their grades to others either. Nobody asked what others got. The talk was this very "dude, I'm the coolest because I got a 35"...and "way to go dude"...

Maybe I'm just too old. LOL


:lol: I'm definitely too old!!!
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#66 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

the teacher asked the weirdest question

 

he asked...does anyone here actually enjoy school and want to be here....

 

there was a sort of context to the question...he likes to talk about himself as a student a lot....

 

either way...hells no did I raise my hand and say me...that comes from years of having it pounded into me just how not cool that is...but why can't it be cool?  Why can't I say yeah man...I love this class.  : )

 

 



#67 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:12 PM

Absolutely agree.

And I cringe every time a parent on this board talks about a kid who is not even 14 "he is not a STEM person" or "She is a humanities girl". Those labels, especially when given by parents, tend t become self fulfilling prophesies.

 

This is off topic, but I'd love to be wrong about this.  I come from a family where math comes naturally to everyone.  When I see the extent to which my kid is clueless about math, I'm sorry, I have to be honest, at least to myself, and eventually to her.  I'm super proud of her for doing her best and keeping a good attitude.  But I do believe some people aren't cut out for higher maths.  If you disagree with me, then perhaps there are some resources I could use to correct my approach.  Nobody would be happier than me if I found myself wrong here.


Edited by SKL, 20 March 2017 - 12:13 PM.

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#68 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:13 PM

but several here are defending the boys' comments more than mine....so maybe I have my answer...a lot of people really just feel this way and I'm the weirdo

 

 



#69 regentrude

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:14 PM

the teacher asked the weirdest question

he asked...does anyone here actually enjoy school and want to be here....

 

Poor man - but he set himself up for disappointment by asking a question like this.

 

I ask mine who is here because it's a required class. Most hands go up. Then I ask who thinks physics is actually fun. At least a few hands go up. Yeah. I'll settle for that. Maybe at the end of the semester, a few more have come around.


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#70 heartlikealion

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:14 PM

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and saying the attitude is learned. Their role models don't care about math so they don't. Or something along those lines. I think, "how sad" more so than, "what losers." How sad they grew up without appreciation for this or that. But then again, I don't appreciate all things. I liked math, but how often do I use trig in real life? So I can see how they might develop a dismissive attitude.


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#71 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:16 PM

yes, I can see this

Sure, I'm judging. I just wonder where the bad attitude comes from. It's strange to me. It could be protective talk for feeling bad about flunking. HOWEVER, nobody has to talk about their grades to others either. Nobody asked what others got. The talk was this very "dude, I'm the coolest because I got a 35"...and "way to go dude"...

Maybe I'm just too old. LOL


They may just be talking about a class where the curve was that severe and they are realizing the implications. I know my kid was stunned when he recd those kind of grades and still earned a C. He talks now of how he scored relative to average. And he has had classes where there is no mercy...fail the first test due to the prof assumimg you have had the AP version in high school, score a curved B+ on everything else including a comprehensive final and you get a D.

#72 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:17 PM

but several here are defending the boys' comments more than mine....so maybe I have my answer...a lot of people really just feel this way and I'm the weirdo

 

No, it sounds to me like you are just in a different season of life than they are.  It is very normal for a student of your age to take school excruciatingly seriously.

 

I see folks on this board announcing that they did well on a test etc.  It is a whole different feeling than what it would have been 20? years ago.  I also saw it in my parents.  They were so serious about stuff I would blow off.  And I wasn't a poor student at all.



#73 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:18 PM

Poor man - but he set himself up for disappointment by asking a question like this.

 

I ask mine who is here because it's a required class. Most hands go up. Then I ask who thinks physics is actually fun. At least a few hands go up. Yeah. I'll settle for that. Maybe at the end of the semester, a few more have come around.

 

I didn't raise my hand.  Too many years of having it pounded into me that it's not cool to enjoy school.



#74 Murphy101

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:19 PM

Then they should not be teaching it. Period. Not even at elementary level.

Parents would not hire a violin teacher who said "violin is not really my thing". Why would that be acceptable in a school teacher?

Here is one link about the math anxiety being contagious. No time to google for the original article.

https://www.noodle.c...e-contagious132

Yes. Well. In Oklahoma the teacher shortage means you get what you get. Expecting them to also be both degreeed in it and actually like it is almost fantasy fiction level expectation.

Edited by Murphy101, 20 March 2017 - 12:38 PM.


#75 heartlikealion

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:19 PM

but several here are defending the boys' comments more than mine....so maybe I have my answer...a lot of people really just feel this way and I'm the weirdo

 

You could say I'm defending their attitude, but more so I just feel like I'm trying to explain it. I don't like their attitude at all. It just makes it less harsh to hear if I explain it away lol. Even if my explanations are wrong! lol.

 

For all I know they are in school on a scholarship in a completely unrelated field or have a major that is seemingly unrelated so it gives them all the more reason to not take it seriously.


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#76 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:19 PM

No, it sounds to me like you are just in a different season of life than they are.  It is very normal for a student of your age to take school excruciatingly seriously.

 

I see folks on this board announcing that they did well on a test etc.  It is a whole different feeling than what it would have been 20? years ago.  I also saw it in my parents.  They were so serious about stuff I would blow off.  And I wasn't a poor student at all.

 

I have always felt this way and wondered why so many others do not.  This is not a new feeling. 

 

I have no particularly new reason to take it seriously.  I'm just serious.



#77 heartlikealion

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:21 PM

I have always felt this way and wondered why so many others do not.  This is not a new feeling. 

 

I have no particularly new reason to take it seriously.  I'm just serious.

 

Was education highly valued in your home? Were expectations higher in your household than others? I know it was for me. Like, my parents expected As and Bs but I might have a neighbor where Cs were considered good/fine. I really think it starts at home with expectations.

 

ETA: I did get some Cs in college and I was disappointed in myself. I don't remember having discussions about those with my parents. I was talking about earlier years above.


Edited by heartlikealion, 20 March 2017 - 12:23 PM.

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#78 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:22 PM

Was education highly valued in your home? Were expectations higher in your household than others? I know it was for me. Like, my parents expected As and Bs but I might have a neighbor where Cs were considered good/fine. I really think it starts at home with expectations.

 

no, not at all

 

there were no expectations



#79 regentrude

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:24 PM

This is off topic, but I'd love to be wrong about this.  I come from a family where math comes naturally to everyone.  When I see the extent to which my kid is clueless about math, I'm sorry, I have to be honest, at least to myself, and eventually to her.  I'm super proud of her for doing her best and keeping a good attitude.  But I do believe some people aren't cut out for higher maths.  If you disagree with me, then perhaps there are some resources I could use to correct my approach.  Nobody would be happier than me if I found myself wrong here.

 

I agree with the bolded. Not everybody will succeed in higher math - very abstract topics, topology, differential equations, etc.

But when talking about school, no, I think every neurotypical child is able to handle the math covered in school.

 

Some kids need a longer time to mature their abstract thinking abilities. Some kids need more time to develop number sense.

Different kids need different styles of teaching - whole to parts/parts to whole, some go from abstract to specifics, some the other way. Some need more drill, for others drill and busywork makes things worse, and they would benefit from a thorough conceptual explanation much more than from another ten pages of similar practice problems. I have found neither the materials used in school particularly inspiring, and I have encountered math teachers who were not inspiring either.

Also, some kids just hate arithmetic - because it is boring. I never liked math until 6th grade when we started doing geometrical proofs and algebra, and had a teacher who loved math and radiated enthusiasm. Sadly, the latter seems to be rare.

 

Now,as I said above, I am talking about neurotypical children. If I had a child who really struggled with arithmetic, despite me experimenting with different teaching styles, and despite being of normal intelligence, I would get an evaluation for dyscalculia.


Edited by regentrude, 20 March 2017 - 12:25 PM.

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#80 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:24 PM

Which is not necessarily a bad thing in my mind.  I can imagine having parents being too hard on kids.  Where the kid rebels against that.  But it is also rather odd to have such a radically different view from one's parents about something.

 

 


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#81 heartlikealion

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:25 PM

no, not at all

 

there were no expectations

 

That's cool. Maybe they need the external pressure that you did not.
 


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#82 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:27 PM

I have always felt this way and wondered why so many others do not.  This is not a new feeling. 

 

I have no particularly new reason to take it seriously.  I'm just serious.

 

And I'd probably still be a rebel in my old age.  :)  I'm weird though.

 

I'll give you an example.  My mom and I both took "Vocabulary Improvement" together.  She would study a lot because she wanted to be sure she got 100%.  I would read the material over once, quickly, and expect to get in the 90s.  An A was an A on the transcript.  My mom would say, "did you study?"  And I'd say "no, I know enough."  We both got As.  I guess you could say we both enjoyed the class too, each in our own way.

 

There were other times where I would take a B rather than suck up to a stupid rule.  My parents would work 10x harder in hopes of an A.  They also took it a lot harder when they didn't get the A they wanted.

 

I don't think it was because their grades mattered more for their jobs etc.  I just think they felt the grades defined them more or something.
 


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#83 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:30 PM

That's cool. Maybe they need the external pressure that you did not.
 

 

probably

 

I just think...why spin your wheels with this....school is SO EXPENSIVE...if you have to keep borrowing money and/or paying paying paying...yikes....that's just nuts.

 

I had to pay for my own education.  At the time most of that was in the form of loans.  I didn't feel the pressure quite as much as if it had come directly out of my own pocket at that moment, but I still knew this was all on me not to waste my time and money. 

 

Maybe that's it.  I didn't have stuff handed to me.  I didn't have anyone expecting anything out of me.  The fact I did it was all on me.  I took the initiative to do it. 

 

Just gives me something to think about with my own kids I guess.  I just so badly want things to be easier/better for them because they could go so much further than I was able to.  But maybe there isn't anything I can do to control that. 



#84 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:32 PM

And I'd probably still be a rebel in my old age.  :)  I'm weird though.

 

I'll give you an example.  My mom and I both took "Vocabulary Improvement" together.  She would study a lot because she wanted to be sure she got 100%.  I would read the material over once, quickly, and expect to get in the 90s.  An A was an A on the transcript.  My mom would say, "did you study?"  And I'd say "no, I know enough."  We both got As.  I guess you could say we both enjoyed the class too, each in our own way.

 

There were other times where I would take a B rather than suck up to a stupid rule.  My parents would work 10x harder in hopes of an A.  They also took it a lot harder when they didn't get the A they wanted.

 

I don't think it was because their grades mattered more for their jobs etc.  I just think they felt the grades defined them more or something.
 

 

Hah...my son is taking the same class (different instructor).  It's the same.  I study beyond the point of needing to.  He barely studies.  Drives me nuts.  I'm like yeah but you need to keep studying.  Yet I don't have much of an argument.  LOL  I wanted to give him some motivation so I gave him money for getting a good grade on his exam.  There was nothing else to motivate him! 

this parenting gig is not for the faint of heart...



#85 Murphy101

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:36 PM

This is off topic, but I'd love to be wrong about this. I come from a family where math comes naturally to everyone. When I see the extent to which my kid is clueless about math, I'm sorry, I have to be honest, at least to myself, and eventually to her. I'm super proud of her for doing her best and keeping a good attitude. But I do believe some people aren't cut out for higher maths. If you disagree with me, then perhaps there are some resources I could use to correct my approach. Nobody would be happier than me if I found myself wrong here.

I do not even know what that even means.

Not cut it for higher maths.

It's all just math.

They learn this step in math and then the next step in math and so forth.

If math is like a mountain, I will readily admit that:

-the PACE at which people climb will vary widely (I personally think an inability to accept this is the biggest failure of the education system in general. If you have not reached X placement by 11th grade, you are considered a lost cause. There's ZERO reason for that. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that a late blooming teen can't ever do trig or go into science bc they don't have enough math by that point. But our idiotic system is set up in such a way that by the end of MIDDLE SCHOOL, most people have been steadfastly placed into a track they can't really ever get out of on their own.)

-some, many even, will look up at some point in their climb and decide oh hells no they have other things they'd rather do and decide to climb no further.

-Some will suddenly reach the top and think that was fun and easy little trail walk

-Some will reach a point, or many points, along the way where they take a snack break & a nap to recharge or decide it's time to use a walking stick or other tools to help them through a rough area.

-Some will decide this entire mountain is a total PITA but by golly they are going to climb it anyways and they will get some mountain climbing gear and kick that mountains butt.

But none of that means a person is or is not a "math person".

Edited by Murphy101, 20 March 2017 - 12:36 PM.

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#86 heartlikealion

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:37 PM

probably

 

I just think...why spin your wheels with this....school is SO EXPENSIVE...if you have to keep borrowing money and/or paying paying paying...yikes....that's just nuts.

 

I had to pay for my own education.  At the time most of that was in the form of loans.  I didn't feel the pressure quite as much as if it had come directly out of my own pocket at that moment, but I still knew this was all on me not to waste my time and money. 

 

Maybe that's it.  I didn't have stuff handed to me.  I didn't have anyone expecting anything out of me.  The fact I did it was all on me.  I took the initiative to do it. 

 

Just gives me something to think about with my own kids I guess.  I just so badly want things to be easier/better for them because they could go so much further than I was able to.  But maybe there isn't anything I can do to control that. 

 

That definitely sounds like it could be an element. Even if money was no factor, I'd hate to repeat a class and have the first grade average in with the second. Depending on what school it is and their policy, it may not matter. It still irks me the way they calculate my GPA between my transcripts. I don't think the community college grades get averaged in (had better grades there).



#87 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:42 PM

That definitely sounds like it could be an element. Even if money was no factor, I'd hate to repeat a class and have the first grade average in with the second. Depending on what school it is and their policy, it may not matter. It still irks me the way they calculate my GPA between my transcripts. I don't think the community college grades get averaged in (had better grades there).

 

Good point, my mom was furious when all her As from community college didn't get figured into her GPA at the state university.

 

So if this is essentially a "pass-fail" course with no GPA impact, I could see why some people don't care much about their grades.


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#88 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:44 PM


-the PACE at which people climb will vary widely (I personally think an inability to accept this is the biggest failure of the education system in general. If you have not reached X placement by 11th grade, you are considered a lost cause. There's ZERO reason for that. There's absolutely nothing to suggest that a late blooming teen can't ever do trig or go into science bc they don't have enough math by that point. But our idiotic system is set up in such a way that by the end of MIDDLE SCHOOL, most people have been steadfastly placed into a track they can't really ever get out of on their own.)
 

 

This is so so so SO true.  When I started struggling with math I dropped down to a different level (at the time we were tracked).  I was under the impression that the lower level only meant a slower pace.  I could have done fine with a slower pace.  Nope.  That's not what that meant.  It meant doing a much lower level of math.  I understood the lower level already.  I just could not keep up with the pace of the new material.  But there was no option of a slower pace.  So I did go back up to the higher level because I did want to go to college and knew I wouldn't likely make it in without that math.  I didn't do that well, but somehow eked by.  I just never understood why they couldn't have offered something different.  When I was there they even only required 2 math courses to graduate!  I would have been fine spending a longer time in each course to actually learn the material, but that was not an option.

 

And sure I could have studied on my own, but this was before the day of everything you ever wanted to learn about is there for the taking on the internet. 



#89 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:47 PM

That definitely sounds like it could be an element. Even if money was no factor, I'd hate to repeat a class and have the first grade average in with the second. Depending on what school it is and their policy, it may not matter. It still irks me the way they calculate my GPA between my transcripts. I don't think the community college grades get averaged in (had better grades there).

 

I am not sure how they do it, but I know for many programs that in order to transfer you must get a minimum GPA.  If the boys are taking that math class they will need it for something like engineering, science, etc.  They won't get into programs with just passing grades.  That I do know. 



#90 Heigh Ho

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:52 PM

I am asking myself this question every time I have a repeated repeater. I get flunking a class once; I don't get flunking it three times for the same reason, which in my course is usually lack of attendance/ not doing assignments.
My 4 credit hour course costs $1,600. Who throws away that kind of money? Not somebody who pays his own bill.

ETA: A student with the kind of problem like a pp mentioned would have accommodations to help to set her up for success. These are not the students I encounter.


I had a roommate who took a class three times..she needed five years to earn her degree, but she has had no problem staying employed in her major. She simply did not understand prof number one and couldn't get help in time, went to summer school,at a cc for second round, back at school for third round and a pass. had she been a member of a frat with extensive files and more tutoring help things might have been different the first time.
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#91 SKL

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 12:56 PM

I agree with the bolded. Not everybody will succeed in higher math - very abstract topics, topology, differential equations, etc.

But when talking about school, no, I think every neurotypical child is able to handle the math covered in school.

 

Some kids need a longer time to mature their abstract thinking abilities. Some kids need more time to develop number sense.

Different kids need different styles of teaching - whole to parts/parts to whole, some go from abstract to specifics, some the other way. Some need more drill, for others drill and busywork makes things worse, and they would benefit from a thorough conceptual explanation much more than from another ten pages of similar practice problems. I have found neither the materials used in school particularly inspiring, and I have encountered math teachers who were not inspiring either.

Also, some kids just hate arithmetic - because it is boring. I never liked math until 6th grade when we started doing geometrical proofs and algebra, and had a teacher who loved math and radiated enthusiasm. Sadly, the latter seems to be rare.

 

Now,as I said above, I am talking about neurotypical children. If I had a child who really struggled with arithmetic, despite me experimenting with different teaching styles, and despite being of normal intelligence, I would get an evaluation for dyscalculia.

 

Well I think my kid "can pass" the college prep high school math courses if she works 3x as hard as her classmates.  But is it worth it ... will it matter if she can pass 12th grade calculus, if she isn't going to build on that in college or use it in her career ....

 

I will say she isn't exactly "neurotypical" though she does not have a diagnosis.
 


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#92 creekland

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:04 PM

If they had zero success, how did they get into that class?  That's what I don't understand.  They are forking off and bragging.  That is all there is to it I think.

 

I know there are tons of other reasons and scenarios, but not in this case.

 

They got into that class because their high school math grades were essentially inflated.  They got credit for homework being done - not necessarily done correctly - just done.  If they are in our school, half of the tests are team tests.  All they needed was one member of the team who understood the material.  The individual tests are completely watered down.  But still, if they did poorly on the test, then they could do test corrections and get half the credit missed back again.

 

Graduating with an A or B in our school doesn't mean one knows the math involved.  We used to offer AP Calc, but most students got a 1 on the test at the end of the course - even if they got an A in the class.  Now we offer it as a CC (DE) course.  Students get the A... but honestly don't know the material any better.  Then those who didn't know the material go off to college thinking they are well prepared with that A or B on their transcript - and end up joking in the elevator.

 

I work in a statistically average public school... 50% are better (technically), but 50% are also worse.


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#93 creekland

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:08 PM

Well I think my kid "can pass" the college prep high school math courses if she works 3x as hard as her classmates.  But is it worth it ... will it matter if she can pass 12th grade calculus, if she isn't going to build on that in college or use it in her career ....

 

I will say she isn't exactly "neurotypical" though she does not have a diagnosis.
 

 

Not all kids need Calculus... my youngest never took it or needed it - even for his college degree.

 

Most colleges have differing levels of Calc too - levels appropriate to what students need (or want).


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#94 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:10 PM

They got into that class because their high school math grades were essentially inflated.  They got credit for homework being done - not necessarily done correctly - just done.  If they are in our school, half of the tests are team tests.  All they needed was one member of the team who understood the material.  The individual tests are completely watered down.  But still, if they did poorly on the test, then they could do test corrections and get half the credit missed back again.

 

Graduating with an A or B in our school doesn't mean one knows the math involved.  We used to offer AP Calc, but most students got a 1 on the test at the end of the course - even if they got an A in the class.  Now we offer it as a CC (DE) course.  Students get the A... but honestly don't know the material any better.  Then those who didn't know the material go off to college thinking they are well prepared with that A or B on their transcript - and end up joking in the elevator.

 

I work in a statistically average public school... 50% are better (technically), but 50% are also worse.

 

Ah actually this is an explanation that makes sense to me.

 

Somehow when I took the placement (many moons ago) I tested out of remedial.  HOW.  Believe me...HOW.  I still ended up doing ok in my math courses, but with my major I wasn't required to take anything too challenging. 

I dunno.  I find compared with other profs I've had (and I've had a zillion in my life) he is one of the more hand holding.  He could not make it easier to succeed.  Really.  I've had profs that I felt only wanted to find ways to trip students up rather than teach them something.  This has not been the case.  So I think...wow how lame can you be not to be thankful for that.  But they may just not have had that experience.  OR maybe they really don't have the prerequisite skills. 


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#95 creekland

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:24 PM

 OR maybe they really don't have the prerequisite skills. 

 

It's this.  I know - at least as far as my school is concerned.  Their Alg (and overall math) skills are often quite dismal.  I've had students in Alg 2 not be able to do 4x100 without a calculator.  I've seen their lack of "basic" skills in SAT prep.  I've had to teach basic Alg when they've had questions in Pre-Calc...

 

Some do well, don't get me wrong, but often they put a bit of time into it themselves making sure they know the material.  Those won't be the students you saw in the elevator.


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#96 amy g.

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:27 PM

In regards to the professor making it easy, some kids do much better when they are being challenged.

My son was that way.

The other day, my husband had dinner with my son's boss. The boss was saying how it is a joke in the office to give the impossible tasks to my son. Soon he has figured it out, written training materials and is in charge of training for the entire international company.

He said Ds puts out as much work as the next 3 most valuable employees combined, so the company understands that to keep him they are going to have to put him on a management track and pay for the rest of his degree.

Then he added the kicker. "And to think, I almost fired him for falling asleep at his desk!"

Yep. That is how he was homeschooling too. Give him a challenge and he would be on fire. Make it easy and hold his hand and he would be sleeping and failing.

Edited by amy g., 20 March 2017 - 01:31 PM.

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#97 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 01:29 PM

In reguards to the professor making it easy, some kids do much better when they are being challenged.

My son was that way.

The other day, my husband had dinner with my son's boss. The boss was saying how it is a joke in the office to give the impossible tasks to my son. Soon he has figured it out, written training materials and is in charge of training for the entire international company.

He said Ds puts out as much work as the next 3 most valuable employees combined, so the company understands that to keep him they are going to have to put him on a management track and pay for the rest of his degree.

Then he added the kicker. "And to think, I almost fired him for falling asleep at his desk!"

Yep. That is how he was homeschooling too. Give him a challenge and he would be on fire. Make it easy and hold his hand and he would be sleeping and failing.

 

True.  I've added stuff to stay a bit more challenged. I'm doing this for fun.  So that makes me odd anyway.  But yes I can certainly see being bored and unmotivated by a lack of a challenge.



#98 Gaillardia

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 10:39 PM

SparklyUnicorn,

 

Were you meaning that they were weird losers because of their attitudes?

I didn't get the impression that you thought they were losers because they were failing the class or getting poor test scores. I got the impression it was because of their attitudes. Laughing about math, like it was a joke and that the failing was nothing serious yet it was a hard class in which to be accepted...how could they be so flippant?

I think it is a sign of embarrassment. And I understand about being brought up to think education was not important. It is not like it was unimportant, but just, "do your school stuff. You'll end up like the rest of the family anyway." (That wasn't said, it seemed implied). I was sick a lot and missed a lot of school, but I learned so much at home.

 

 


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#99 Sadie

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Posted 20 March 2017 - 11:55 PM

I actually love maths now, and have even thought about becoming a maths teacher.

 

But when I was in high school, I was mortified by being this smart kid who somehow had managed to fail maths, so of course I 'hated math, and maths was weird' because face, save.

 

 

 

 


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#100 SparklyUnicorn

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:33 AM

SparklyUnicorn,

 

Were you meaning that they were weird losers because of their attitudes?

I didn't get the impression that you thought they were losers because they were failing the class or getting poor test scores. I got the impression it was because of their attitudes. Laughing about math, like it was a joke and that the failing was nothing serious yet it was a hard class in which to be accepted...how could they be so flippant?

I think it is a sign of embarrassment. And I understand about being brought up to think education was not important. It is not like it was unimportant, but just, "do your school stuff. You'll end up like the rest of the family anyway." (That wasn't said, it seemed implied). I was sick a lot and missed a lot of school, but I learned so much at home.

 

Yes, absolutely. 

 

I think part of it for me too is I feel like they have this opportunity that not everyone has and they are bragging about squandering it.

 

Of course I don't know ALL of their details.  I could have it completely wrong.  But the attitude was just over the top bad.


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