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Grade 5 Teacher is a One-Woman Show - need ideas


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#1 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 09:49 AM

 My son has a dynamic grade 5 teacher - she thinks outside the box - has them doing fabulous hands-on projects. 
 HOWEVER and this is a big HOWEVER... she is a one-woman show. She is openly and verbally against the children doing work at home UNLESS she has given the okay (usually when all of the in-class allotted time is completed and the student still hasn't completed their work). She does not like the students bringing home their hardcopy work - which is always kept in duotangs at school per subject. 
In our family - learning doesn't just happen in those 6 hours at school - we want our son to be able to show us and discuss his work at home and work further on it - where he will be distraction-free. We are also trying to encourage study and review habits - which he can't do if his work is at school. We feel that his teacher's philosophy of "what happens in school stays in school" does not allow our son to full "own" his education or to develop good study habits while he is still young. 
Despite the fact that I've explained this to her in length - she is still not willing to cave unless he has an IEP.  

As mentioned - she is dynamic in other ways - but this attitude is very frustrating. The principal backs her and has also encouraged us to submit an IEP. I don't feel an IEP should be necessary for this. Parents SHOULD be able to partner with teachers in their children's education without it being a special need. Teachers need to stop being fearful that parents are doing their childrens work (apparently this is a very rampant fear - I have 8 friends who are teachers and they ALL tell me that this is a main reason why work is not encouraged to be completed at home!).

Some tactics I am implementing - 1) are to encourage my son to share at the dinner table what he has learned as well as to ask him for ideas on how we can 'extend' the learning taking place there. 2)  We have also had family discussions on how we don't agree with the teacher's stance on this issue. 3) And finally, I have openly encouraged my son to work on his projects that are online (lots of his work is done in google docs that are accessible from home) despite his teacher's dissent. She resents this and has written notes home in his agenda - and I actually believe his report card will reflect her negativity - but that's another story! 1f603.png

What other ideas and feedback might you have for me? Changing schools is not an option, nor is changing teachers.  I know its late in the year - but these ideas will help me for next year as well.  

Thanks in advance for any ideas you may have!

 



#2 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:30 AM

JAWM

Edited by Heigh Ho, 31 January 2017 - 07:15 PM.


#3 Tanaqui

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 10:49 AM

Actual studies repeatedly show that doing schoolwork at home or homework is not actually associated with any increase in learning until high school. I think your kid's teacher is on the right track here.

 

Why not have your kid focus on his own projects at home, things he chooses to learn that aren't connected to what he's doing at school? There's no need the only think he learns needs to be what he's doing at school, is there? All this free time in the afternoon and evenings could be a real boon for him to study something off the curriculum. That would really be "owning" his own learning, because this would be HIS choice - not yours, not the teacher's.


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#4 arctic_bunny

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:00 AM

I agree that this is a great opportunity to develop interests outside of school. An opportunity to emphasize that not all learning happens at school, that there are ideas to explore outside of those walls. There are books to be read that won't be covered in school. Models to be built. Instruments to be played. Sports to be tried. Art projects to be delved into. There is so much more to do than school work, why insist that he bring his work home? We spend a lot of time telling grown ups to find a work/life balance, and this seems like a great time to start.
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#5 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:09 AM

Actual studies repeatedly show that doing schoolwork at home or homework is not actually associated with any increase in learning until high school. I think your kid's teacher is on the right track here.

 

Why not have your kid focus on his own projects at home, things he chooses to learn that aren't connected to what he's doing at school? There's no need the only think he learns needs to be what he's doing at school, is there? All this free time in the afternoon and evenings could be a real boon for him to study something off the curriculum. That would really be "owning" his own learning, because this would be HIS choice - not yours, not the teacher's.

  

While I agree with you about the studies regarding homework,  I am talking about something different here.

There is a disconnect that happens (at least in my son's case) when students are expected to keep learning within the confines of their classroom.  When my son does his work in school, closes his duotang and hands it to his teacher to care for.... when "what happens in class stays in the class" is the norm - he is not in effect OWNING his education.... he never gets the chance to show his work and discuss it with us (thus reinforcing what he's learned and taking OWNERSHIP of it)... his work doesn't belong to the teacher.  He should have unfettered access to it for whatever reason he chooses.  

With regards to the comment about needing help with distractions -   one doesn't necessarily have problems with distractions if they work better in a distraction-free environment - with the means to think in a quiet place.... don't MOST of us work better in a distraction-free environment?  

Further to that - if my son is going to be graded on a book report (as an example) but is not given distraction-free time to do multiple drafts (which he is not) - why should he NOT be allowed to have access to work on it when the inclination arises?  As a case in point - with the time he was allotted in school - his efforts on a biography were a C+ level effort at best.  Since this was an online project with access to it through google docs - i was able to coach him through the rewriting phase.  5 drafts later he was able to produce an A+ product which boosted his self esteem AND gave him a valuable lesson in "keeping at it and perfecting it".  This would not have happened with the time allotted for this project in school.   Some people just need to stew on things longer than others do, I guess.  :) 

This IS posted in an after-schooling forum, is it not - where the folks here are advocates for their children doing afterschool work?  I am looking for suggestions on how to foster that environment and extend the learning he is doing IN school....  despite the teacher's refusal to work with us.   Thanks in advance.  



#6 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:13 AM

I agree that this is a great opportunity to develop interests outside of school. An opportunity to emphasize that not all learning happens at school, that there are ideas to explore outside of those walls. There are books to be read that won't be covered in school. Models to be built. Instruments to be played. Sports to be tried. Art projects to be delved into. There is so much more to do than school work, why insist that he bring his work home? We spend a lot of time telling grown ups to find a work/life balance, and this seems like a great time to start.

 

Thank you!  He does have oodles of time to work on other interests.   We are wanting him to also be able to have unfettered access to his own learning and his own efforts.    We don't believe that the learning that takes place in the school must stay there.   We have a culture of discussing our day and sharing our ongoing educations with the other members of our family around the dinner table.   

Just looking for ideas on how to make that happen beyond the ideas I am already trying.  Surely this is the right board for this type of thinking?  :) 



#7 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:44 AM

One last thought, to try and convey where I am coming from, and what we are trying to achieve?  

In the workplace - or the "real" world.... on the whole - which is more preferable and lends itself to success more often?  The employee who goes to work, puts in his 8 hours, does what is asked of him but never really takes ownership of his job - never really thinks on his/her own on ways to improve or learn more or produce more?  

Or is it the employee who comes home - perhaps discusses his work with his family, friends.... takes ownership of what he is asked to do and makes it HIS (even though he might not have chosen a particular project) - does further research on his own, brainstorms on his work, maybe reworks or redoes a draft as a thought occurs to him?   

While this employee may not be able to choose what projects he gets to work on at work- the taking "ownership" of it anyways (on his time away from work even!!)  is what will distinguish him from the rest.  

This is the culture we try to foster in our family. It takes time to cultivate this outlook on life.  I am looking to brainstorm ways to make this happen despite a teacher who does not subscribe to this.   

Thanks again for any tips you may have!!  


Edited by Momma2Luke, 31 January 2017 - 11:44 AM.


#8 Janeway

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:44 AM

I would prefer that. I hate when children bring home homework. I would rather do whatever I want at home and not be run by homework from the school. I know someone with a preschooler who faces homework every single night. It is awful.


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#9 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:49 AM

I would prefer that. I hate when children bring home homework. I would rather do whatever I want at home and not be run by homework from the school. I know someone with a preschooler who faces homework every single night. It is awful.

Having a preschooler with mandatory homework everynight WOULD be awful.   

Again though -  the issue for me is not that his teacher does not assign homework!  The issue is that he does not have access to his OWN work so that he MIGHT work on it further if he wants to improve it... .or to share it or to review it.  Or to teach it to us.  Isn't that a sign of mastery anyways?  The ability to teach it to someone else? 


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#10 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:50 AM

I agree that some people work better in a quiet place, but todays classroom is full inclusion, which means nonstop noise. What students who have learned to focus in the midst of chaos do here is move to a safe position (back to wall) and prop books up (blocks thrown objects, discourages wanderers), effectively making a study carrel. If its a calmer classroom, they put ear protection on. They then dive in to the academics. You will not be able to get a quiet place without an iep unless the school psych observes and thinks its a good solution...that is how most here get the ok for ear protection...its a game of conflicting needs and the law sides with those on iep who have the need to scream,walk around, knock objects over, and be noisy as a resut of their medical condition.

I personally agree with you,.and had my child tjat needed peace placed in a quiet classroom. It was very nice...walls weren't visually distracting either.
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#11 happysmileylady

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 11:58 AM

What is her actual reasoning on this?  Have you actually asked her "permission" to do X or Y or Z?  Like "Hey Mrs Smith, DS got a C on his spelling test last week, I would like to see what the spelling list is so I can help him figure out how to get a better grade this week." 

 

Also, once the items are graded, do they come home?  If they are (and they should be) then can you just use that to figure out what they are working on....or at least in combination with discussing it with him. 

 

Does your school have an open door policy that would allow you to visit the classroom whenever?  This used to be very common years ago, but now with school security so tight and lots of schools requiring background checks and stuff, it's more difficult.  But if it's possible to just visit whenever (or maybe to do so under the guise of volunteering to help) that would give you a great idea of what is actually going on. 


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#12 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:04 PM

What you are explaining as your goal...giving your child more time and and more resources on the side to help, is viewed as making an unlevel playing field by many teachers. They want the best that the students can do with the resources available at school. That requires the student to focus, and the teacher to make the correct resources available. And it may mean no one achieves mastery.

Your description sounds like your child needs tutoring as well as the motivation and ability to focus on his lesson and tasks while in school, plus more time on task. Is that a fair summary? Or do you feel the teacher is not offering adequate instruction? What does the teacher say the distractions are?

In afterschooling, most seem to get into it because the school is putting their child in study hall after the basics are shown to be known rather than offering enrichment or work at the childs instructional level or the child is in need of tutoring to keep up with the class, but isn't eligible for the school's tutoring resources.

Edited by Heigh Ho, 31 January 2017 - 12:23 PM.

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#13 wapiti

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:06 PM

If this teacher's views are rather entrenched, I would not hold my breath on accomplishing anything with the school.  I would conduct any afterschooling without regard for what is happening in the classroom in general or with my child's individual work.  I would look ahead to middle school and consider what skills I want my child to have (being realistic) and work on those.  I would be glad not to have homework that gets in the way of accomplishing my own afterschooling.

 

In 5th grade, at home I'd want to work on math (my own way, thank you teacher) and I'd prefer to see lots of reading.  I may also want to add in some writing, probably some effort to understand how to make an outline, but that depends on where the student is with those skills.

 

In my area, nothing about the 5th grade report card matters.  The only thing that really matters for starting middle school is placement for math, usually done by exam in the spring or late summer.


Edited by wapiti, 31 January 2017 - 12:08 PM.

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#14 Lecka

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 12:47 PM

I think if the principal is encouraging an IEP, maybe consider the IEP. 

 

Honestly I think sometimes they do this b/c they DO see a need for an IEP, and the parents don't want it or don't see it, so they just do things "by the book" until the parents will get an IEP.

 

And, I don't think that is the worst thing in the world. 

 

I think if he can get a C+ at school but an A at home, he should have the supports at school to let him do A work at school. 

 

And maybe that means he gets supports. 

 

I think there is a lot that is mentally healthy there for a child.  B/c he does need to be independent and feeling like he has to take work home might mean he thinks he needs help at home, but maybe if he can do it at school he feels more independent and capable.

 

And maybe he does need an IEP.

 

It is really vague to know that, but if they see him as needing an IEP and you as not wanting to get him one, and maybe they suspect ADHD and think he needs ADHD supports (which does not mean just medication at all, and does not have to mean medication) then I think maybe take a hint.

 

Maybe the principal is just putting you off by saying "get an IEP."  That is possible too.

 

But if it is more they see that your child needs IEP supports at school then it could be they would like you to do it. 


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#15 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:07 PM

 

 

Does your school have an open door policy that would allow you to visit the classroom whenever?  This used to be very common years ago, but now with school security so tight and lots of schools requiring background checks and stuff, it's more difficult.  But if it's possible to just visit whenever (or maybe to do so under the guise of volunteering to help) that would give you a great idea of what is actually going on. 

 

Ooh - great idea!!  I believe that they tout an open door policy - so perhaps I will take them up on that offer since this may be the only way I can see the work being done   Thank you for this suggestion!



#16 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:25 PM

Oooh - I think I just figured out how to do multiquotes! LOL!!   :D

If this teacher's views are rather entrenched, I would not hold my breath on accomplishing anything with the school.  I would conduct any afterschooling without regard for what is happening in the classroom in general or with my child's individual work.  I would look ahead to middle school and consider what skills I want my child to have (being realistic) and work on those.  I would be glad not to have homework that gets in the way of accomplishing my own afterschooling.

 

In 5th grade, at home I'd want to work on math (my own way, thank you teacher) and I'd prefer to see lots of reading.  I may also want to add in some writing, probably some effort to understand how to make an outline, but that depends on where the student is with those skills.

 

In my area, nothing about the 5th grade report card matters.  The only thing that really matters for starting middle school is placement for math, usually done by exam in the spring or late summer.

Thanks for the reminder about placement tests for math for middle school!  Math is a huge priority for us, for sure... not overly worried as he's a grade ahead in math (via afterschooling).  AND thanks for the reminder about the weightlessness of grade 5 report cards!   :laugh: 

I am thankful for the lack of homework actually - I don't think I initially was clear about that.  I just want access to his completed work at school AND work in progress to be able to help him with the skills that he is learning.   This may sound cynical - but having homeschooled up till grade 4, I'm not impressed with the depth covered with the curriculum (and not so thrilled with the curriculum to begin with - its not as robust as I would like).  Rather than inventing the wheel with afterschooling - I'd like to take his existing work and improve upon it, helping him gain the skills to go deeper and to work to full capacity - something that I'm not seeing evidence.   

 

What you are explaining as your goal...giving your child more time and and more resources on the side to help, is viewed as making an unlevel playing field by many teachers. They want the best that the students can do with the resources available at school. That requires the student to focus, and the teacher to make the correct resources available. And it may mean no one achieves mastery.

Your description sounds like your child needs tutoring as well as the motivation and ability to focus on his lesson and tasks while in school, plus more time on task. Is that a fair summary? Or do you feel the teacher is not offering adequate instruction? What does the teacher say the distractions are?

In afterschooling, most seem to get into it because the school is putting their child in study hall after the basics are shown to be known rather than offering enrichment or work at the childs instructional level or the child is in need of tutoring to keep up with the class, but isn't eligible for the school's tutoring resources.

 

Now doesn't that suck?  Excuse my language - but an unfair playing field is not something that teachers should be concerned with!  They should be throwing their arms, in relief around the parents that want to BUILD on what they are teaching!!  

My son doesn't need tutoring on what is being covered.   He IS quite advanced.  BUT he could use more time on task in some areas and more encouragement slowing down and reviewing, perfecting his work in other areas.  I view this as normal.  We don't all work at the same speed or with the same focus in such large classes.  

I think if the principal is encouraging an IEP, maybe consider the IEP. 

 

Honestly I think sometimes they do this b/c they DO see a need for an IEP, and the parents don't want it or don't see it, so they just do things "by the book" until the parents will get an IEP.

 

And, I don't think that is the worst thing in the world. 

 

I think if he can get a C+ at school but an A at home, he should have the supports at school to let him do A work at school. 

 

And maybe that means he gets supports. 

 

I think there is a lot that is mentally healthy there for a child.  B/c he does need to be independent and feeling like he has to take work home might mean he thinks he needs help at home, but maybe if he can do it at school he feels more independent and capable.

 

And maybe he does need an IEP.

 

It is really vague to know that, but if they see him as needing an IEP and you as not wanting to get him one, and maybe they suspect ADHD and think he needs ADHD supports (which does not mean just medication at all, and does not have to mean medication) then I think maybe take a hint.

 

Maybe the principal is just putting you off by saying "get an IEP."  That is possible too.

 

But if it is more they see that your child needs IEP supports at school then it could be they would like you to do it. 

 

thanks for pointing this out! :)  We totally are getting a psycho-ed assessment done, just to make sure  we aren't missing anything. There was a time early on when I thought he may have ADHD, and I'm not discounting it - but he seems to have outgrown many of the minor concerns I used to have when he was younger.   But again, I believe access and ownership to his own work shouldn't be a special need!!  It should be a basic right!  
I think you are on the money when you said that I am being put off by asking for an IEP.   The classrooms already have so many IEP's that they HAVE to accommodate - why complicate things and accommodate everybody elses wishes? KWIM?  At least that's where I think they are coming from.   

Still, as an advocate for my son, I don't really want to buy into that.  If I want to see what my son is working on, or if I want him to have access to it - it should be a given.   


Edited by Momma2Luke, 31 January 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#17 Tanaqui

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:28 PM

In the workplace - or the "real" world.... on the whole - which is more preferable and lends itself to success more often?  The employee who goes to work, puts in his 8 hours, does what is asked of him but never really takes ownership of his job - never really thinks on his/her own on ways to improve or learn more or produce more?

 

The more you work past 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week, the less productive you become and the more the quality of your work declines. Humans need breaks.


Edited by Tanaqui, 31 January 2017 - 01:29 PM.

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#18 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:34 PM

The more you work past 8 hours in a day or 40 hours in a week, the less productive you become and the more the quality of your work declines. Humans need breaks.


I understand your stance on this. I feel like you are deliberately trying to misunderstand mine.   But thank you. 



#19 Tanaqui

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:44 PM

I assure you, I am not. You are upset because you want your kid to get more help at home for schoolwork, and you're deliberately undermining what the teacher is doing in order to get that done. You want him to "own his work" because you think that's a better mindset, despite the fact that decades of evidence show that working overtime, in school or at work, actually decreases learning and productivity. Does that about sum it up?

 

I mean, seriously, you do you - but I gotta say, when the kids were in school, we didn't have them do more of their in-school work at home. They did things that the school wasn't teaching (cursive) and tutoring on the subject they needed help in (math). The rest of their afternoon was for their own self-education or for downtime, which helped them learn more the next day.


Edited by Tanaqui, 31 January 2017 - 01:46 PM.

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#20 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:50 PM

I assure you, I am not. You are upset because you want your kid to get more help at home for schoolwork, and you're deliberately undermining what the teacher is doing in order to get that done. You want him to "own his work" because you think that's a better mindset, despite the fact that decades of evidence show that working overtime, in school or at work, actually decreases learning and productivity. Does that about sum it up?

 

Yes, I want him to own his own work.  And yes, I want him to be able access it whenever he wants so that he is able to review it when he wants, create study notes, discuss it,  show his parents (heaven forbid!), pursue rabbit trails,  etc, etc.  

Yes I have undermined his teacher's wishes to keep total control of his work because we believe it doesn't belong to her.  My son's efforts and work belong to him.  ( After lengthy discussions on this topic as a family) BUT I have come to this AFTERSCHOOLING forum for further ideas.    

THAT about sums it up.  

ETA:  Thank you again for your input. Got it now!  


Edited by Momma2Luke, 31 January 2017 - 01:52 PM.


#21 eternalsummer

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 01:52 PM

Especially since you homeschooled until last year, the teacher may be wary of over-involvement on your part.  I'd respect her request that his learning of classroom work be restricted to the classroom (as it is for other students, presumably) and if you want to do afterschooling, just don't insist on "fixing" his classroom work or having him "own it" by perfecting it at home.  Possibly what she is trying to do is teach and ascertain what he can do within the classroom setting at this point in school; he owns it at school, as it is schoolwork.

 

If you want him to have more time on task than is standard for his grade level and classroom, an IEP is a good idea.  If you just want him to have more time to work on things so that he does better in relation to the other kids (because of having extra time),  I don't know if you'll get far.

 

Otherwise, for afterschooling that closely relates to what they're doing in school, I'd just ask him what they're working on - learning about Australia?  cool, here's a great fiction book set in Australia, or let's make meat pie, or something.


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#22 Where's Toto?

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:04 PM

While I agree with you about the studies regarding homework,  I am talking about something different here.

There is a disconnect that happens (at least in my son's case) when students are expected to keep learning within the confines of their classroom.  When my son does his work in school, closes his duotang and hands it to his teacher to care for.... when "what happens in class stays in the class" is the norm - he is not in effect OWNING his education.... he never gets the chance to show his work and discuss it with us (thus reinforcing what he's learned and taking OWNERSHIP of it)... his work doesn't belong to the teacher.  He should have unfettered access to it for whatever reason he chooses.  

With regards to the comment about needing help with distractions -   one doesn't necessarily have problems with distractions if they work better in a distraction-free environment - with the means to think in a quiet place.... don't MOST of us work better in a distraction-free environment?  

Further to that - if my son is going to be graded on a book report (as an example) but is not given distraction-free time to do multiple drafts (which he is not) - why should he NOT be allowed to have access to work on it when the inclination arises?  As a case in point - with the time he was allotted in school - his efforts on a biography were a C+ level effort at best.  Since this was an online project with access to it through google docs - i was able to coach him through the rewriting phase.  5 drafts later he was able to produce an A+ product which boosted his self esteem AND gave him a valuable lesson in "keeping at it and perfecting it".  This would not have happened with the time allotted for this project in school.   Some people just need to stew on things longer than others do, I guess.   :) 

This IS posted in an after-schooling forum, is it not - where the folks here are advocates for their children doing afterschool work?  I am looking for suggestions on how to foster that environment and extend the learning he is doing IN school....  despite the teacher's refusal to work with us.   Thanks in advance.  

 

Is this part of the issue for the teacher?  Does she want to see what he can produce independently, without coaching?  So she has an accurate assessment of his capabilities, not his capabilities with you coaching him through it?

 

I don't see that owning your work is contingent on what you do outside of the classroom or workplace.  I owned my work, took initiative about improving things, took pride in what accomplished but I didn't have to put in time outside of my 8 hours to do that.  Taking away from my family time wouldn't have made me own my work more. 


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#23 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:05 PM

Especially since you homeschooled until last year, the teacher may be wary of over-involvement on your part.  I'd respect her request that his learning of classroom work be restricted to the classroom (as it is for other students, presumably) and if you want to do afterschooling, just don't insist on "fixing" his classroom work or having him "own it" by perfecting it at home.  Possibly what she is trying to do is teach and ascertain what he can do within the classroom setting at this point in school; he owns it at school, as it is schoolwork.

 

If you want him to have more time on task than is standard for his grade level and classroom, an IEP is a good idea.  If you just want him to have more time to work on things so that he does better in relation to the other kids (because of having extra time),  I don't know if you'll get far.

 

Otherwise, for afterschooling that closely relates to what they're doing in school, I'd just ask him what they're working on - learning about Australia?  cool, here's a great fiction book set in Australia, or let's make meat pie, or something.

No doubt she is wary.  But I figure that her insecurity talking.  I DO understand your point though, and its a good one.  I may bring this up for further discussion with her.  Perhaps if I agreed that he only brings his work home to share it with us and to create study notes (as opposed to working further on it) she will feel better about it.   It's not an ideal concession on our part - but one i'd consider if she agrees to meet us half way.  Thank you for that idea!! Appreciated!  

Oh and regarding your second paragraph - how about a third reason?  To want to simply help your child work to their full capacity in relation to the things that they are already learning and taking interest in.  We are not wanting him to do better in relation to other kids(we're not competitive in that way). :) We just want him to do his personal best and reach his full capacity within an overstuffed environment that doesn't really allow for personal coaching and mentoring.  



#24 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:13 PM

Is this part of the issue for the teacher?  Does she want to see what he can produce independently, without coaching?  So she has an accurate assessment of his capabilities, not his capabilities with you coaching him through it?

 

I don't see that owning your work is contingent on what you do outside of the classroom or workplace.  I owned my work, took initiative about improving things, took pride in what accomplished but I didn't have to put in time outside of my 8 hours to do that.  Taking away from my family time wouldn't have made me own my work more. 

 

This likely could be a part of the issue for his teacher.   In which case, fine - go ahead and assess the work he has done independently in class.... Let him earn that C in the report based on what he accomplished in class (and because you don't have the time to mentor each student individually to bring out their best work in whatever way that means for that particular student) But then let him bring home his work so that I CAN coach him on how to turn that C into an A!!  Because guess what?  I'm his parent and I care!  

 

Owning your work (in our family's definition of it) means that YOU can make the decisions on whether to continue working on it, change it up, review it, share it with others, use it as a basis for a rabbit trail.   How does one do this without access to it?  

Truly, and i mean this with the utmost of respect peeps, but I truly thought I'd find people on an afterschooling board who understand this mindset!  
 



#25 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:35 PM



Now doesn't that suck? Excuse my language - but an unfair playing field is not something that teachers should be concerned with! They should be throwing their arms, in relief around the parents that want to BUILD on what they are teaching!!

My son doesn't need tutoring on what is being covered. He IS quite advanced. BUT he could use more time on task in some areas and more encouragement slowing down and reviewing, perfecting his work in other areas. I view this as normal. We don't all work at the same speed or with the same focus in such large classes.


An unclassified fifth grader that needs five revisions plus coaching to get a book report done after being given instruction and time in class needs help on whatever issue is holding him back. You have ducked all the questions asked about what is distracting him and affecting his ability to focus, so really no one can help you help him. If he is advanced, book reports should be old hat since they have been done for years. You should be meeting with the iep team and finding out what is really going on that means he can't get his easy work done.

Edited by Heigh Ho, 31 January 2017 - 02:36 PM.

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#26 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 02:54 PM

An unclassified fifth grader that needs five revisions plus coaching to get a book report done after being given instruction and time in class needs help on whatever issue is holding him back. You have ducked all the questions asked about what is distracting him and affecting his ability to focus, so really no one can help you help him. If he is advanced, book reports should be old hat since they have been done for years. You should be meeting with the iep team and finding out what is really going on that means he can't get his easy work done.

 

I haven't ducked any questions! LOL!!  But here are my answers again, just in case they were missed or in case I didn't do a good job of explaining the first couple of times: 

No, in my opinion he doesn't have distraction issues that don't fall within the realm of normal for a very large and busy class.  But yes we are seeking a psycho-educational assessment all the same in case we are missing something.   My son is a very normal 10 year old who sometimes needs encouragement to do his best in some areas and not so much encouragement in other areas.  Believe me when I say he is a very normal 10 year old who is advanced in areas, not so advanced in others and is actually lazy sometimes! (Shocking, right?!!)    When I say 5 revisions, I don't mean I sent him to start over 5 times.... but rather - after working on it, he let it sit and marinade for a while, then I encouraged him to go back to it 5 different times to see if it could be improved, giving him things to think about.   I did this because as his mentor, I knew that his work wasn't up to his usual standard.  Its what good mentors do.   It was a great experience for him and one that he wouldn't have had at school because he doesn't have unfettered access to his work.   I disagree with your blanket statement:  children in grade 5 don't necessarily produce A+ reports like robots each and every time.   That's just ridiculous. 

 

So in short, I am NOT concerned about his abilities and I am NOT concerned with the lack of homework. 
I was SIMPLY looking to bounce ideas off of fellow AFTERSCHOOLERS for ideas on how to help my son gain access to his own work  so that we can build on it- thinking that you guys would be great at thinking outside the box! 

Anyone have any constructive ideas on what I am asking? 


 



#27 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:05 PM

You are not going to get the assignment before its been graded,.school doesn't work that way. If you want it afterwards, ask for an appointment and you will have an opportunity to review it. In the meantime, you need to acquaint yourself with the idea of academic honesty. Good luck.
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#28 wendyroo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:05 PM

So is he not getting any of his work back even after it is completed and graded?


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#29 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:10 PM

So is he not getting any of his work back even after it is completed and graded?

 

He has only brought home 2 math tests (that he got 97% and 94% on respectively).   
He has only brought home worksheets once because she wasn't able to allot more time in class to them - and she needed to mark them before the first report card came out.  My son only had 2 questions left to complete on them.  

Other than that, and other than a few items online in his google drive, I have seen nothing - not even at our first parent teacher interview because they were held in the gym and she didn't bring samples.   



#30 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:21 PM

You are not going to get the assignment before its been graded,.school doesn't work that way. If you want it afterwards, ask for an appointment and you will have an opportunity to review it. In the meantime, you need to acquaint yourself with the idea of academic honesty. Good luck.

 

I am aware of academic honesty.  That's just insulting.. and again, ridiculous.    

His teacher was informed of my intentions via a note in his agenda.   I was not dishonest - I did everything in stages:  1) Wrote a note asking to see work 2) met with teacher  3) met with principal  4) wrote letter to both of them letting them know of my intentions regarding the online work i WAS able to access.   There was no response to this letter.   

I didn't mention any of this because it is besides the point. 

By the way, i'm not sure if anyone is aware of Google docs - but teachers are able to see all revisions and when they were done.  She could have chosen to grade only his first draft, especially since she was warned AND she was able to see what his in-class work was. Again, not really the point - but some people on here seem to want to choose assign negative intent.  

Sure, this may be seen as undermining the teachers efforts - but I wasn't dishonest.   And besides,  I view their stance as undermining my child's ability to reach his full potential.  

ETA: while my letter has not been answered (the one I wrote to the principal and a copy to the teacher) - the teacher has written notes in his agenda on 2 separate occasions to say things like "X tells me he is already completed so-and-so at home. He had nothing to work on during in-class time and chose to draw".   I responded with: "X knows he is not completed his project.  Thank you for the information.  We had a talk and he knows that he is not to ask to draw instead of working on his  project.  "  Again, not relevant information regarding the help I was seeking.. but since my honesty was in question......   :D


Edited by Momma2Luke, 31 January 2017 - 03:27 PM.


#31 wendyroo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:29 PM

He has only brought home 2 math tests (that he got 97% and 94% on respectively).   
He has only brought home worksheets once because she wasn't able to allot more time in class to them - and she needed to mark them before the first report card came out.  My son only had 2 questions left to complete on them.  

Other than that, and other than a few items online in his google drive, I have seen nothing - not even at our first parent teacher interview because they were held in the gym and she didn't bring samples.   

 

That would annoy me too.  I would be thrilled that he didn't have homework, but frustrated that I could not see even completed work.

 

I do not agree that he should have access to all of his work at all times.  IMO, it is fully within the rights of the school to not let school work wander off until it is graded.

 

I agree with you fully, though, that parents should be allowed access to their children's work after it is graded.  The class will move on even if my kid gets an 88% on a math test or forgets to punctuate half of an essay or clearly doesn't understand photosynthesis, but that doesn't mean that I cannot work with my child afterward to achieve mastery of those subjects.

 

Is he moving to the middle school next year?  If so, and since he does seem to be doing well and thriving in the class, then I would probably lay low and count down the days until the end of the year.

 

Wendy


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#32 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:42 PM

That would annoy me too.  I would be thrilled that he didn't have homework, but frustrated that I could not see even completed work.

 

I do not agree that he should have access to all of his work at all times.  IMO, it is fully within the rights of the school to not let school work wander off until it is graded.

 

I agree with you fully, though, that parents should be allowed access to their children's work after it is graded.  The class will move on even if my kid gets an 88% on a math test or forgets to punctuate half of an essay or clearly doesn't understand photosynthesis, but that doesn't mean that I cannot work with my child afterward to achieve mastery of those subjects.

 

Is he moving to the middle school next year?  If so, and since he does seem to be doing well and thriving in the class, then I would probably lay low and count down the days until the end of the year.

 

Wendy

thank you for your thoughtful response Wendy! Greatly appreciated!!  Okay - so it seems like I am in the minority to think its my right to see what my son is working on as he's working on it.   :D  I guess I might need to let go of that control... at least for this year.  

But yes, I think he should at the very least be able to bring home the work as its marked -but its all kept in duotangs (one for each subject) which are to never leave the classroom.   

He will be at that school for one more year (grade 6) before moving on to middle school.  

I had thought about laying low until the rest of the year... and I still might - but first I might just make numerous appointments to come and see his completed work.  Maybe she'll come to the realization that its easier just to send his work home if we PROMISE to send the duotang back!   :D 

Unless anyone thinks of something else that we haven't thought of??



#33 EndOfOrdinary

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 03:46 PM

I do not know why you decided to place your child in school, but it sounds like that might not be the best place for him, for you. Once in school, it is not about what you want his education to look like. He is in 5th grade. Next year and through middle school, the parents need to be pretty darn hands off. It is definitely a struggling time for kids because they have to self support. It has very little to do with academics, and much more to do with owning their education as you have so drastically said you want. Let him own it.

Your child cannot own his education if he has to present it to you for approval. However much that might not be your intention, that is what you are saying. Somehow his work at school is not being owned, because he is not sharing it with you. In that situation, you are the deciding factor of the value. Gently, it has nothing to do with you anymore. It is his.

I cannot understand why you need to see his assignments. Even the completed ones. Just let him do his work. If he is repeatedly not understanding why he is getting the grades he is, then a joint conference with the teacher is needed. If he is unhappy with his performance, then HE needs to talk with the teacher about it. If you are worried he is not doing well, it sounds like the teacher (and possibly the principal) have encouraged an IEP evaluation. Where in any of this is it necessary for you to see his assignments?

As someone who was a para for elementary and taught middle/high school, assignments do not go home because when they come back they are VASTLY different or they get forgotten. Parents think they are helping. Parents want to help. You are not helping. You are not being "involved." Your child has to be able to perform these tasks without you or learn how to self advocate. Often, that homework assignment which has been helped, cannot be repeated by the child. They cannot explain why it is different, what they need to do, or how to even come close to doing it. In wanting to despirately to be involved, you are hindering his progress because it is not his anymore. You took it.

If you want to help your child in school and be involved in his life, then take a family karate class, do art together, go to a concert, give the car a wash, talk about his friends, take him to the movies, make dinner together. Just about anything other than rehashing school. If your family does not have other things to do or discuss, that is not about the school. FTW, this is true for couples as well. Studies are fairly conclusive that discussing your work at home (other than a specific incident or issue) is actually quite damaging to the relationship compared to quality time.

If you are wondering why everyone is saying that in an afterschooling forum, you are missing what the titke means. Parents has SEPARATE curriculum they use with their kids. They are afterschooling because what happens at school stays at school.
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#34 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:17 PM

I do not know why you decided to place your child in school, but it sounds like that might not be the best place for him, for you. Once in school, it is not about what you want his education to look like. He is in 5th grade. Next year and through middle school, the parents need to be pretty darn hands off. It is definitely a struggling time for kids because they have to self support. It has very little to do with academics, and much more to do with owning their education as you have so drastically said you want. Let him own it.

Your child cannot own his education if he has to present it to you for approval. However much that might not be your intention, that is what you are saying. Somehow his work at school is not being owned, because he is not sharing it with you. In that situation, you are the deciding factor of the value. Gently, it has nothing to do with you anymore. It is his.

I cannot understand why you need to see his assignments. Even the completed ones. Just let him do his work. If he is repeatedly not understanding why he is getting the grades he is, then a joint conference with the teacher is needed. If he is unhappy with his performance, then HE needs to talk with the teacher about it. If you are worried he is not doing well, it sounds like the teacher (and possibly the principal) have encouraged an IEP evaluation. Where in any of this is it necessary for you to see his assignments?

As someone who was a para for elementary and taught middle/high school, assignments do not go home because when they come back they are VASTLY different or they get forgotten. Parents think they are helping. Parents want to help. You are not helping. You are not being "involved." Your child has to be able to perform these tasks without you or learn how to self advocate. Often, that homework assignment which has been helped, cannot be repeated by the child. They cannot explain why it is different, what they need to do, or how to even come close to doing it. In wanting to despirately to be involved, you are hindering his progress because it is not his anymore. You took it.

If you want to help your child in school and be involved in his life, then take a family karate class, do art together, go to a concert, give the car a wash, talk about his friends, take him to the movies, make dinner together. Just about anything other than rehashing school. If your family does not have other things to do or discuss, that is not about the school. FTW, this is true for couples as well. Studies are fairly conclusive that discussing your work at home (other than a specific incident or issue) is actually quite damaging to the relationship compared to quality time.

If you are wondering why everyone is saying that in an afterschooling forum, you are missing what the titke means. Parents has SEPARATE curriculum they use with their kids. They are afterschooling because what happens at school stays at school.

 

There are a number of reasons why people choose to after-school. Pretty sure It is not ONLY with the intention of using a separate curriculum. What an odd blanket statement!   Or to do something completely separate from what is going on at school.   I have stated that my reason for after-schooling is because I can already tell my son is not working to his full capacity (which I fully believe is due to lack of quality mentoring)  in some areas and because I don't think that there is enough depth with the curriculum.   My intention is not to reinvent the wheel or to give my son extra or new work -but to deepen what he is already learning.  
 

Why is it necessary to see his assignments?  Have you ever truly mentored a student in a subject without seeing their work? I can't imagine being a very effective mentor without that!    His teacher is not his only mentor and is not even the main mentor.  We (his parents) are.  And many homeschooling, after-schooling parents see it that way.  We'd prefer to work WITH his other mentors though!! 

Another reason for wanting to see his assignments is to help with his study skills.  Going to school is quite different from being homeschooled.   Schools do not do a great job of teaching study skills.  They go from having their teacher take care of EVERYTHING for them to being immersed in middle school where all of a sudden you have a multitude of different teachers each with their own style and none of them are hanging on to his work for him.   

So, yes, in this process of trying to get my child to own his own work (seems like that phrase surely does bug you!) and to create a mindset of reviewing, creating study notes, sharing etc - we have to start SOMEWHERE.... and for us that is a) getting our son to realize the importance of him having access to his work (which thanks to that report incident, he now does :) )  b) helping him to actually HAVE access to his work (which we are currently trying to work on c) discussing it around the dinner table and d) helping him to organize his work in order to obtain maximum benefit from it.  So that by the time he is actually IN high school we will actually be able to be more hands off and he'll have taken complete control over his own education.   

 

 Btw - you can spew stats all you want - but my husband and I have been married for 25 years and we discuss our work over the dinner hour all of the time - we brainstorm, he's helped me on proposals, i've helped him with issues,  we have helped each other  countless times in many ways -and I am here to tell you that we are HAPPILY married! And not only that but our careers have prospered because of it!  Maybe you just aren't doing it right??  :lol: 


EDITED TO FIX TYPOS = gahhh!  :D

 


Edited by Momma2Luke, 31 January 2017 - 04:19 PM.


#35 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:33 PM

Was just pondering EndofOrdinary's post above.  Maybe it was not her intent - but it seems to me as though she believes homeschooling has to be all or nothing.  Either you homeschool completely or you relinquish ALL mentoring rights to your child.   Is this what most of you think?  Do any of you believe that you can share mentoring rights with school teachers?    Perhaps this might need to spin off into its own thread - but I am surprised that there are mainly fulltime homeschoolers answering my questions and they all seem to distrustful of the idea of actually working WITH school teachers (and not relinquishing all teaching aspects to them) in mentoring your child.   In your mind - does it have to be all or nothing?  That what goes on in school has to stay in school?   That you are undermining a teacher if you choose to deepen their teaching?  

I've been fascinated today by all of the responses.  And thankful too... there have been a couple of good suggestions in keeping with what my husband and I are trying to achieve.  Thank you! 



#36 EndOfOrdinary

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:34 PM

Okay, you are actually not hearing me. You do not get to make the choice of when he is on his own. That is what you are not hearing. You do not get to make that choice once he is school. They get to make that choice. You do not get to make the choice of how he is taught whatever level of study skills. You do not get to make any of his academic choices anymore. You placed him in school. They make those choices now.
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#37 EndOfOrdinary

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:38 PM

Was just pondering EndofOrdinary's post above. Maybe it was not her intent - but it seems to me as though she believes homeschooling has to be all or nothing. Either you homeschool completely or you relinquish ALL mentoring rights to your child. Is this what most of you think? Do any of you believe that you can share mentoring rights with school teachers? Perhaps this might need to spin off into its own thread - but I am surprised that there are mainly fulltime homeschoolers answering my questions and they all seem to distrustful of the idea of actually working WITH school teachers (and not relinquishing all teaching aspects to them) in mentoring your child. In your mind - does it have to be all or nothing? That what goes on in school has to stay in school? That you are undermining a teacher if you choose to deepen their teaching?
I've been fascinated today by all of the responses. And thankful too... there have been a couple of good suggestions in keeping with what my husband and I are trying to achieve. Thank you!


Did you read the materials you signed when you signed your student up for school? It literally says "in loco parentis." You do not get to "mentor" in a way that undermines the teacher no matter what. Either you un-enroll your child or you relinquish to who you have designated to teach them. It is an all or nothing. You can help, but you are NOT helping. That is what you seem to be missing. Your current route is not helping.
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#38 Heigh Ho

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 04:55 PM

I am aware of academic honesty. That's just insulting.. and again, ridiculous.


Academic honesty in elementary school is phrased as 'do your own work'. It is dishonest to take an assignment that will be graded home and have it reviewed and coached by a mentor when the teacher has specifically said it stays in the classroom and will only be worked on in class.

Obviously you disagree which is fine. Take that up with the teacher.
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#39 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:20 PM

Did you read the materials you signed when you signed your student up for school? It literally says "in loco parentis." You do not get to "mentor" in a way that undermines the teacher no matter what. Either you un-enroll your child or you relinquish to who you have designated to teach them. It is an all or nothing. You can help, but you are NOT helping. That is what you seem to be missing. Your current route is not helping.

 

 

Okay, you are actually not hearing me. You do not get to make the choice of when he is on his own. That is what you are not hearing. You do not get to make that choice once he is school. They get to make that choice. You do not get to make the choice of how he is taught whatever level of study skills. You do not get to make any of his academic choices anymore. You placed him in school. They make those choices now.

Wow, yep... I heard you loud and clear.  

AND I heartily disagree. Actually the province I live in has a Parent Engagement Policy in tandem with our education act.  I am a full partner in my son's education. The school educators are mandated to work WITH me for the well-being of my son.    I actually do have some say in what he is taught in school (as one example, I can opt to keep my son home if there is something that is being taught that I don't want him taught)  and  I certainly DO have the choice to expand on his curriculum and deepen it out of class.  I do know my rights very well.   

Wanting my son (and his mentors)  to have access to his work is In no stretch of the imagination undermining the teacher.    No wonder there has been nothing but distrust for my wanting my son to have access to what he's working on: ie Surely there must be a learning disorder or attention issues.  Surely you must have control issues for wanting to continue to mentor your son to achieve the best that he's capable of.    I find it very disconcerting that many of you think that (or live in a place where) you must relinquish all mentoring rights to your children if they are placed in school. 

Thank you to the couple of you who have actually been helpful in suggesting ideas on how to access my son's work.   Greatly appreciated.  

 


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#40 happysmileylady

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:26 PM

Yeah, I would not be pleased about not getting any completed and graded work back either.   In fact, last year, I was getting DD8's work back....at least I thought I was.  Then at the end of the year, there were piles and piles of papers that came home.  Math tests from October, science worksheets, etc.  It was kind of crazy.  How am I supposed to know if my child understands or not, how am I supposed to know what she needs help with, if I never see the papers!

 


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#41 happysmileylady

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:31 PM

Did you read the materials you signed when you signed your student up for school? It literally says "in loco parentis." You do not get to "mentor" in a way that undermines the teacher no matter what. Either you un-enroll your child or you relinquish to who you have designated to teach them. It is an all or nothing. You can help, but you are NOT helping. That is what you seem to be missing. Your current route is not helping.

 

I find the idea that sending a child to school means relinquishing all rights to have any say in the child's education (which it certainly sounds like what you are saying) to be crazy.  Just because I might choose to send my child to school, that doesn't mean the school owns that child or that child's education.   In the end, as a parent....I AM responsible for my own child.


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#42 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:36 PM

Yeah, I would not be pleased about not getting any completed and graded work back either.   In fact, last year, I was getting DD8's work back....at least I thought I was.  Then at the end of the year, there were piles and piles of papers that came home.  Math tests from October, science worksheets, etc.  It was kind of crazy.  How am I supposed to know if my child understands or not, how am I supposed to know what she needs help with, if I never see the papers!

 

 

I find the idea that sending a child to school means relinquishing all rights to have any say in the child's education (which it certainly sounds like what you are saying) to be crazy.  Just because I might choose to send my child to school, that doesn't mean the school owns that child or that child's education.   In the end, as a parent....I AM responsible for my own child.



Ahhhhh.....finally!! A voice of reason!  LOL!!  In all seriousness though, it surely is a relief to know that I'm not the ONLY one who thinks along these lines! Thank you for chiming in!   



#43 Where's Toto?

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:48 PM

I don't think homeschooling has to be all or nothing, but there are things you give up by placing them in school.

 

In GENERAL (there are exceptions), you should not try to work with your child in a manner that is completely opposed to the teacher's methods.  This can cause confusion in your child, frustration in the teacher, and in the long run is unlikely to offer much benefit.

 

Teachers need to see what the student is capable of.  Too much mentoring or assistance at home gives the teacher a false impression of what your child can do.  They are then expected to maintain that level of work and when they can't, it causes confusion in the child, and frustration in the teacher.  If the teacher can see what the child is able to do without assistance, they are better able to adjust the class work to the level the child needs.

 

I'm currently homeschooling my kids.  I've also had them homeschooled by a private teacher in the past, and I had a child in public school for 13 years.   Public (or private school) can't be handled in the same way as homeschooling.  It's very different and you give up control when you put them in school.


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#44 happysmileylady

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 05:59 PM

I don't think homeschooling has to be all or nothing, but there are things you give up by placing them in school.

 

In GENERAL (there are exceptions), you should not try to work with your child in a manner that is completely opposed to the teacher's methods.  This can cause confusion in your child, frustration in the teacher, and in the long run is unlikely to offer much benefit.

 

Teachers need to see what the student is capable of.  Too much mentoring or assistance at home gives the teacher a false impression of what your child can do.  They are then expected to maintain that level of work and when they can't, it causes confusion in the child, and frustration in the teacher.  If the teacher can see what the child is able to do without assistance, they are better able to adjust the class work to the level the child needs.

 

I'm currently homeschooling my kids.  I've also had them homeschooled by a private teacher in the past, and I had a child in public school for 13 years.   Public (or private school) can't be handled in the same way as homeschooling.  It's very different and you give up control when you put them in school.

 

Generally speaking I do agree with this.  HOWEVER...that's not what I see the OP trying to do in this case, unless I am reading it wrong.  In fact, the way I understand it...the OP WANTS to know what the teacher is teaching so that she can work WITH the teacher's methods and teaching, not completely opposite. 

 

It's true that there are some things you give up control of when your kids are in school.  I HATED the math curriculum that my daughter's school used last year (well, they still use it, she's just not there this year lol)  I would never presume try to get the teacher to change that curriculum or try to teach my child in a completely different manner.  However, I do think I should have the right to know what IS being taught, so that if my child is struggling to understand I can help, or if they are super interested in learning more, I can help with that, OR, even be able to discuss with the teacher "ok, DD is having trouble with XYZ of this curriculum, this is what I am seeing at home, is this what you are seeing at school?  Have you tried XYZ, she responds well to that."  Or on the flipside.."Ok, I see DD really really liked and understood ABC, I would never have thought to try that, thanks, I am going to try that with 123 extracurriculuar we are doing, thanks!"


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#45 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:03 PM

In GENERAL (there are exceptions), you should not try to work with your child in a manner that is completely opposed to the teacher's methods.  This can cause confusion in your child, frustration in the teacher, and in the long run is unlikely to offer much benefit.

 

Teachers need to see what the student is capable of.  Too much mentoring or assistance at home gives the teacher a false impression of what your child can do.  They are then expected to maintain that level of work and when they can't, it causes confusion in the child, and frustration in the teacher.  If the teacher can see what the child is able to do without assistance, they are better able to adjust the class work to the level the child needs.

 

 

 

I totally agree with you on the first point (1st paragraph)! Thank you for bringing that up!   We have always taught our son to be respectful of his mentors and the people in his life. BUT we have also taught him to stand up for what he believes to be right.  Rest assured that we did not enter into the decision to allow him to work on his online projects at home without a lengthy decision and without first attempting to engage the school in a conversation and finally without a respectful letter outlining why we would be doing what we did.    We are not a family to disagree for the sake of disagreeing :) 

As to your second paragraph - I am not doing my child's work - I am consistently holding him to a standard to which I know he is capable of.  Something that a teacher cannot logically do for each of her students personally.   



#46 EndOfOrdinary

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:17 PM

I find the idea that sending a child to school means relinquishing all rights to have any say in the child's education (which it certainly sounds like what you are saying) to be crazy. Just because I might choose to send my child to school, that doesn't mean the school owns that child or that child's education. In the end, as a parent....I AM responsible for my own child.


Actually, no, that is legally not true in the United States. That is why I asked if you read the paperwork you signed when you sent your child to school. That is why I mentioned "in loco parentis." It has gone to court. That latin phrase means "in lieu of parent." You quite literally signed away your rights. You can google it. Your child has no right to privacy, no right to assembly, no right to speach, no right to medical treatment they request. It is completely the school's discernment. Those are exaggerated examples, and I do not wish to derail this thread, but it is catagorically not true that you are reponsible for your child at school. You need to look it up. You relinquished those rights.
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#47 wendyroo

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:22 PM

I find the idea that sending a child to school means relinquishing all rights to have any say in the child's education (which it certainly sounds like what you are saying) to be crazy.  Just because I might choose to send my child to school, that doesn't mean the school owns that child or that child's education.   In the end, as a parent....I AM responsible for my own child.

 

I agree, and I am very glad that my parents felt the same way, because that is the only reason I was (semi-) ready for a top tier university upon graduation.

 

We know that statistics show that many graduates who got high grades in high school are still woefully unprepared for college.  It seems ridiculous to then say that parents should not try to shore up the gaps.  Not is a way that interferes with a teacher's ability to assess the student's independent work, but in a way that builds the student's skills.

 

From elementary all the way through high school, essays I wrote were always subjected to "peer editing".  To put it bluntly, my peers were really crappy editors, and if anything, that editing worsened my writing skills.  I would bring home essays and papers with big A+'s and nothing but praise from the teacher, and then my mom and I would sit down and rework them and edit them with a fine tooth comb.  Inevitably, the teacher would have missed a ton of grammar and punctuation issues; I would have never had the opportunity to learn from my mistakes if my parents were not allowed to see my graded work.

 

In math, the teacher would assign only the easy problems, because the word problems were "too hard" (mostly too hard for her to explain), but my parents looking through my assignments, would insist I do them all.  In science when I brought home tests with short answers marked correct, but which clearly showed shoddy understanding of the material, my parents would help me find the relevant section of the textbook and work with me until I fully grasped the concept.

 

I owe my education to my parents, and I am forever grateful they did not take a hands off approach.  And for the record, I have two degrees from MIT, so I don't think them staying heavily involved in my schooling hindered my ability to learn to guide my own education and to advocate for myself.

 

Wendy


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#48 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:40 PM

I agree, and I am very glad that my parents felt the same way, because that is the only reason I was (semi-) ready for a top tier university upon graduation.

 

We know that statistics show that many graduates who got high grades in high school are still woefully unprepared for college.  It seems ridiculous to then say that parents should not try to shore up the gaps.  Not is a way that interferes with a teacher's ability to assess the student's independent work, but in a way that builds the student's skills.

 

From elementary all the way through high school, essays I wrote were always subjected to "peer editing".  To put it bluntly, my peers were really crappy editors, and if anything, that editing worsened my writing skills.  I would bring home essays and papers with big A+'s and nothing but praise from the teacher, and then my mom and I would sit down and rework them and edit them with a fine tooth comb.  Inevitably, the teacher would have missed a ton of grammar and punctuation issues; I would have never had the opportunity to learn from my mistakes if my parents were not allowed to see my graded work.

 

In math, the teacher would assign only the easy problems, because the word problems were "too hard" (mostly too hard for her to explain), but my parents looking through my assignments, would insist I do them all.  In science when I brought home tests with short answers marked correct, but which clearly showed shoddy understanding of the material, my parents would help me find the relevant section of the textbook and work with me until I fully grasped the concept.

 

I owe my education to my parents, and I am forever grateful they did not take a hands off approach.  And for the record, I have two degrees from MIT, so I don't think them staying heavily involved in my schooling hindered my ability to learn to guide my own education and to advocate for myself.

 

Wendy

Thank you thank you for sharing your example!!  I feel like printing this off as a reminder for myself when I feel like caving! :) 



#49 eternalsummer

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:43 PM

I think taking home finished work, or graded tests, is a very different animal from taking home unfinished work that the teacher doesn't want the child's parent's help on and then turning it in later for a grade.

 

I agree that your child should be given his finished work, or completed tests, so you can remediate any problem areas and fix mistakes, etc.  If you focused your efforts on convincing the teacher or admin. to let you have this work, instead of work in progress, I think you'd get a lot farther.


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#50 Momma2Luke

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Posted 31 January 2017 - 06:46 PM

Actually, no, that is legally not true in the United States. That is why I asked if you read the paperwork you signed when you sent your child to school. That is why I mentioned "in loco parentis." It has gone to court. That latin phrase means "in lieu of parent." You quite literally signed away your rights. You can google it. Your child has no right to privacy, no right to assembly, no right to speach, no right to medical treatment they request. It is completely the school's discernment. Those are exaggerated examples, and I do not wish to derail this thread, but it is catagorically not true that you are reponsible for your child at school. You need to look it up. You relinquished those rights.

Scary!   :crying: