discussing college fit

[Okra]

First, I must say that I do not post very often, but I have been reading all the threads for many months now.  One of the things that I am struck by is how many nice and knowledgeable people there are on this board.  It seems such a safe and wonderful place to ask questions.

 

I have a high school sophomore.  She is my oldest and so we are all in the learning process.  I really want to try to figure things out with college so we don't stumble in blindly. 

 

We live right next to our big state university.  It's a fine school, and I certainly wouldn't mind if she attended it.  I have talked to several parents at our high school, and I find that many of them haven't really looked around at other places.  The State University that is right there is very convenient and they haven't explored anything else.  While this is a great safety school to apply to, I want to explore all options.

 

My daughter typically scores very well on standardized tests, she scored a 202 on her PSAT, and she excels in her public high school, and takes as rigorous classes as she can. She would definitely have some great teacher recommendations.  I just want to make sure we have an idea what we are doing.

 

Questions are muddling up in my head so much, it's hard to concisely write them down.  I have read about finding a good fit, but I don't really know how to do that.

 

She is so shy and quiet.  It is hard for her to meet new people, something she struggles with a bit.  She has said she definitely wants to apply to other schools, but right now she can't imagine moving away from family and friends.

 

She is not sure what she wants to major in, but she loves science (biological sciences) and History.

 

We have decided against the other smaller state schools, as they don't seem as academically a good fit.  College navigator is such a wonderful tool.

 

We live in the midwest.  How does one figure out schools to apply to?  How do you know if a college is "good" at something like Biology or History, or say something like Environmental Science?  How does one figure out a good fit when the child is so unsure of everything also?  She doesn't know if she wants a small or large college, she doesn't know if she wants it to be in a city or rural, she doesn't know if she wants to wants to move away, or just attend the State University next to our house.

 

I'm confused at how people narrow down their choices?

 

Thanks so much.

 

 

[Beth in OH]

I think it is perfectly appropriate for your dd not to know answers to the school search questions yet.  For my oldest, we started about this time in her sophomore year by doing a prospective student tour at a couple of different types of schools.  We kept them convenient--no need to overwhelm with travel, etc. at this point.  (My dd would have shut down if we had done a full-on search of multiple options at this point. YMMV).  For us, this was the stage where we wanted to get her thinking.  Early in her junior year, she knew that she did not want a rural setting.  We went to a college fair (useful for displaying options, not so much for getting a feel of a school.) and did more touring during spring of her junior year.  We saved the serious touring for her senior year.  

 

It was a high priority for us to keep this process manageable for our oldest.  By the time #3 got to this stage, the process looked very different.  She was a different kid with different life experience.  In the end, #1 chose to start at the CC.

[creekland]

How does one figure out schools to apply to?  How do you know if a college is "good" at something like Biology or History, or say something like Environmental Science?  How does one figure out a good fit when the child is so unsure of everything also?  She doesn't know if she wants a small or large college, she doesn't know if she wants it to be in a city or rural, she doesn't know if she wants to wants to move away, or just attend the State University next to our house.

 

I'm confused at how people narrow down their choices?

 

Thanks so much.

 

Starting with her as a sophomore is a good time.

 

My suggestion is to visit several types of colleges nearby whether you think she will like them or not.  Do an official visit for the big state school.  Do a search and find some small LACs near you and visit them.  Find a small or medium sized research U and visit it.  If interested in a religious school (vs secular) visit those too.

 

After you've done a few visits, you will almost always find a preference for a "type."  It might be research schools.  It might be small LACs.  It might be Greek heavy (or not).  It might be rural/suburban/urban.  It really does take a few visits to figure out "fit" and going to those you don't care for is just as informative as those you do care for.

 

THEN start to look at the types (that pass muster) that have majors you're interested in.  This can be more difficult to winnow down as ALL schools will tell you they are great for that major - as will students in that major at that school.  We preferred to look for outside info for "greatness" within a major - and chose folks currently in certain jobs my guys liked to question (what schools do they recommend and/or hire from?).  Some of these were in person.  Others were via e-mail.  Everyone we checked with was more than willing to offer an opinion.

 

Some majors have respected outside scholarships associated with them.  (Marine sciences is one of those.)  We looked for schools producing winners of those scholarships.

 

Some majors have Major Field Tests that some schools participate in with graduating seniors.  We looked for - and sometimes asked for - scores on those to compare.

 

We always looked at where recent graduates in desired majors got jobs or got accepted to grad/prof schools.

 

And, since the economic downturn hit right before my oldest started looking at colleges (wiping out a hefty bit of our savings and current income), we also looked at finances.  I wanted mine to have merit aid in case our income returned (savings was not returning).  Not all schools offer merit aid... we needed some that did.  Then we also wanted need-based aid to cover our lower income at the time, so we chose schools that were known to be good for it too.  It worked well.  We stayed at our EFC (affordable for us) without needing parent loans (my kids do have basic student loans - but not high student loans).

 

If you are full pay, you can skip the financial part.  If not, that factors in a bit.

 

It can take a bit of study, but honestly, no "search company" is going to do it better than you can IMO.  You know all your data.  You can run Net Price Calculators on every school's website to give you an idea of cost (those aren't perfect though).  It does take time.  Feel free to ask questions and glean from the board.  Once you know more specifics of fit, come back on and ask.

 

You may decide that Big State U is exactly what you want.  You may decide small intimate LAC is preferable.  Who knows at this point?  The three schools my boys chose were all unknowns to me prior to us "finding" them through our searches.  It's been fun... and they enjoy their schools.  If it had been up to us parents, they'd have just gone to our Alma mater (a big state U), but upon visiting, all three decided it wasn't "their" school...  It's their life.  We had our choice.  They've gotten theirs.  We've no regrets.

[Hoggirl]

Already great advice (as usual) from Beth in OH and Creekland.

 

I am a big fan of the Fiske Guide. At the beginning is a short - maybe 30 - 40 questions - survey that might help you decide the "type" of school your daughter would like. Many factors go into "fit," and this short survey hits many of them. While my ds likes looking at college websites, I always remind him that their websites are MARKETING efforts!

 

Other resources that we have liked are Choosing the Right College and 8 First Choices. You can find them on Amazon. One other thing to remember is that many Big State U's have Honors Colleges within them that can potentially provide your dd with a small school atmosphere within a big school.

 

The rule on College Confidential is to "love they safety." Sounds like you have that covered with your nearby Big State U (we have one of those as well!). We found three safeties. I like having at least two so the student still has a "choice."

 

Since your dd received a 202 on her PSAT as a sophomore and you say she generally tests well, I would have a goal of scoring high enough to qualify for National Merit her junior year. I do not know what state you are in, and the score you need to qualify varies by the state you live in (as I am sure you know). I have read that the *average* increase between sophomore and junior year is 10 points. My ds had a solid score his sophomore year and increased that by 17 points his junior year. While you may not wind up choosing a school that offers big awards for National Merit, it is awfully nice to have that in your pocket. All three of my ds's safeties give nice merit $$$ for National Merit.

 

You are wise to start early. One detriment we encountered was that some colleges will not do interviews before senior year. We visited three schools junior year that would not interview my ds. Just keep that in mind. Some schools place a lot of emphasis on demonstrated interest, and if one of those schools won't interview junior year, you might want to wait visiting.

 

I would also advise determining if she would be applying to any schools that would require SAT Subject tests and plan those accordingly. Take Math II right after completing Pre-Calculus. Take Chemistry right after completing AP Chem, etc.

 

Enjoy the roller coaster ride of college admissions!

 

ETA: Should have said to take Math II right after completeing Pre-Calculus. Had earlier written "Calculus."

[Nan in Mass]

Mine had trouble thinking about college when they were sophomores. I was the one who did the initial thinking about how to structure their high school education to fit their interests and make them able to go to whatever sort of college I thought would fit those interests. For example, we were fairly sure youngest was headed for engineering school, so I had a look at what sorts of requirements engineering schools had as far as math and lab science classes and standardized testing, and kept in mind that with this path, he would not get much other than technical classes in college. Spring of sophomore year, we took a week and made visits to different types of local schools - alternative-y, large state, small state, and private LAC, and we talked about things to begin thinking about, like large or small and near or far. Junior year, we worked on community college classes and standardized testing because we were fairly sure ours would apply early action, which means senior grades and classes aren't available yet to be looked at. Spring of junior year, we made visits to the colleges they thought they wanted, and fall of senior year, we did their open houses and interviewed. I think the most important things we talked about were interests, possible careers, and the advantages and disadvantages of near/far, large/small, general education/career specific education, and conventional/alternative. I'm glad we talked about them earlier rather than later because although that shifted as the child grew, it is the sort of thing that takes lots of thinking about. For example, one thought far would be nice until he watched us deal with the realities of having an older brother several states away. Once they had that figured out, then the large books, word of mouth, search engines, and local guidance counselor were useful to produce a visiting/applying list. One tip somebody here gave was that if you are looking at far away schools, it is possible to apply first and then only visit the ones that accept you. That way, you don't waste plane fares. Also, by then the student will probably be old enough to be comfortable visiting alone, which also saves money.

 

One other tip - right now, before your daughter has begun to think too much about college, is the time to tell her of any limits you are imposing. If you have no money for her college and she is going to have to rely on loans and scholarships, tell her now. If you don't want her going to a school that involves plane rides, tell her. If you have religious restrictions, tell her now. If you are sure she would be better off at one type of school and don't want to pay for the other, tell her now. That way, she is less likely to fall in love with an impossible school. These sorts of discussions go better if you yourself have done some research and are aware of the different options.

 

Mine were completely appalled at the idea of their current lives ending, so any college discussions were super stressful. I designed their education with their future in mind, so I thought about their future constantly. It seemed like I made decisions on a daily basis that invovled the issue of college and a career - what sorts of writing and problem-solving and skills to teach, projects to tackle, study skills to emphasize, books to read, tests to sign up for, etc., and I had to be careful not to talk constantly about college and whatever else came after high school. It made it hard for them to think and focus on learning what they needed to learn. And yet, talking about the future was a necessary step in preparing them for it. It was a tricky balance.

 

Nan

[plansrme]

There is a thread right now on College Confidential about shy students and the type of college that might fit them. It is one of the "features discussions" on the home page. It might be a good starting point or at least provide some good things to think about at this stage.

[ChristineP]

I am in the Midwest also.  Does this state university have an honors program?  My dd is attending the University of Kansas in their Honors Program.  She loves it!  We visited a lot of different schools.  She is very glad she chose the one she did.

 

[Okra]

Thank you all so much!  

 

I really appreciate your time to help newbies like me try and figure it all out.  

 

 

[Okra]

Since your dd received a 202 on her PSAT as a sophomore and you say she generally tests well, I would have a goal of scoring high enough to qualify for National Merit her junior year. I do not know what state you are in, and the score you need to qualify varies by the state you live in (as I am sure you know). I have read that the *average* increase between sophomore and junior year is 10 points. My ds had a solid score his sophomore year and increased that by 17 points his junior year. While you may not wind up choosing a school that offers big awards for National Merit, it is awfully nice to have that in your pocket. All three of my ds's safeties give nice merit $$$ for National Merit.

 

I would also advise determining if she would be applying to any schools that would require SAT Subject tests and plan those accordingly. Take Math II right after completing Pre-Calculus. Take Chemistry right after completing AP Chem, etc.

 

Enjoy the roller coaster ride of college admissions!

 

ETA: Should have said to take Math II right after completeing Pre-Calculus. Had earlier written "Calculus."

 

 

Could you explain to me the difference between taking the AP tests and the SAT Subject tests?  Does DD need to take the AP World History and also the SAT World History Subject test?  I am a bit confused in that area.

[Hoggirl]

The answer is, "It depends." They serve different purposes, too. Success on APs (usually scores of 4 or 5) may or may not be rewarded with college credit. Usually the higher up the food chain one goes, the less likely credit will be given. Many state schools will give credit for APs (usually limited in total to the equivalent of a year's worth of study). APs are usually self-reported by students on their college applications, and at many top schools many applicants will have taken and done well on many APs! There is often controversy about how much "weight" AP classes and tests carry in the world of college admissions. Colleges are supposed to look at the context of the applicant - some students will have more access to APs than others. That is something outside of their control. I would say that if APs are available, and a student did not avail himself of them, that could be detrimental when compared to other applicants who did avail themselves. However, if one attends a high school that only offers 3 APs, there's not much a student can do about that.

 

Some colleges require SAT Subject tests. Usually the top-ranking schools. My ds took three. Some schools want just the ACT with writing, some schools want the SAT AND two SAT Subject Tests. Some schools want either the ACT or SAT and two SAT Subject Tests. My son applied to one school which "recommended" (read - "you better do it") three Subject Tests in addtion to either the SAT or ACT with writing. Note that some schools will require you to send ALL your standardized test scores, so it is worth it to prepare for any subject tests you take. Thus, to the best extent possible it is good to know as far ahead of time as possible what schools might want what! One of my mantas is "Better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it." We were pretty sure ds would apply to schools that wanted them.

 

HTH

 

Edited to fix all my crazy typos! Was typing while fixing dinner!

[Okra]

Thank you for your info regarding SAT subject tests.  It is SO NICE to be able to get information from people that have been there before me.

 

 

[Lolly]

The best way to figure out fit is to visit the school. Don't write off a school just because it is big and she is shy. Shy people sometimes prefer to be able to blend in. It can be hard to blend in in a small school. My dc have all "just known" which school they wanted to attend after visiting the campuses. One just stood out in their minds beyond the rest. It clicked.

[Susan in TN]

The best way to figure out fit is to visit the school. Don't write off a school just because it is big and she is shy. Shy people sometimes prefer to be able to blend in. It can be hard to blend in in a small school. My dc have all "just known" which school they wanted to attend after visiting the campuses. One just stood out in their minds beyond the rest. It clicked.

And don't be in a panic if the visits don't click with her right off. In fact, my ds has been accepted into 5 schools, 4 of which he has visited, and he still has no idea where he wants to attend. We will be visiting them all at least one more time, if not more, until he feels he can make a decision. Of course, financial aid will also play a role, and it will be a few more months before that is all worked out.

 

FWIW, 4 of the schools are within 2 hours of home, including one which is less than 2 miles away, and only one is out of state.

 

My second oldest, a freshman, is benefitting a great deal from her older brother's college search - not only seeing the testing and application process, but being able to hear the conversations over different schools and their features and "personalities".

[Elisabet1]

The midwest has an incredible assortment of schools, you will not be short on looking. I am unsure where you are in the midwest, but my husband and I have talked several times about how if only we still lived in the midwest, we would have every variety of college choices so close by compared to where we are now. 

[Elisabet1]

By the way, I should add that I did just simply attend a state university and it was awful for me.

 

Take in to consideration how your daughter likes to learn more than socialize. That will be a better measure of fit. Does your child prefer to have conversations about what she is learning? Then a school with small classes would be a better fit. Does your child prefer to take in a lecture and work independently? If so, then a large university could be a better fit. 

 

My daughter prefers to be in a collaborative environment. Every time she is in a situation where she is just supposed to listen to a lecture and study on her own, she hates it. She doesn't even do well. But when she is in the classroom and can interact and discuss everything at length, then things go great! So she would be much better where she can have small classes.

 

Some people, shy or not, prefer to sit in a lecture hall, listen to lectures, and then do the work. So it really is not about introvert vs extrovert so much as it is learning style.