For a non-college bound student, how do you know when they've done enough to graduate?

[ereks mom]

In my state, homeschoolers are not required to earn a given number of credits, but most homeschoolers I know usually gear their curriculum so that their children earn at least the minimum number of credits required for admission to our state's university system: 4 math, 4 science, 4 English, 3 social science, 2 foreign language. This has worked well for my college-bound children, but what if a student does NOT plan to go to college?

 

As you may already know, I'm teaching other students in addition to my own. One is a 17 year old girl who has no desire to attend college, but instead plans to study cosmetology. At cosmetology school, she will not be required to take core classes, but will go right into her program, which will take a year and a half to complete. The school's catalog states that an applicant needs a high school diploma or its equivalent, and applicants who were homeschooled must provide a diploma or proof of graduation. The admission requirements do not specify a minimum number of credits per subject area.

 

This student came to homeschool with me at the beginning of this school year after having failed 10th grade last year at a local private school. She has an EXTREMELY hard time with math and with reading comprehension. She has done pretty well with me, and is passing all subjects. Even though technically, she is a 10th grader this year, we would like to consider next year her senior year and have her graduate and go on to her cosmetology school. Even if she graduates "on time", she will be nearly 19 by the time she graduates, but if next year isn't her senior year and she has another year after that, she'll be nearly 20 years old by the time she graduates from high school! That just doesn't sound right to me. At what point do you consider a non-college bound student ready to graduate? What do you consider "enough" for your students who will not be going to college?

[regentrude]

I am not in that situation, but I would orient myself on the number of credits a non-college bound public school student would be required to have for graduation - even if the same is not mandated for homeschoolers. I would want to make sure to have at least done this minimum; I would not feel comfortable issuing a homeschool diploma if I did not meet the state requirements for a comparable ps student.

[ereks mom]

I am not in that situation, but I would orient myself on the number of credits a non-college bound public school student would be required to have for graduation

 

See, there's the dilemma. Our state has undergone a LOT of education reform in recent years, and as I understand it, public high schools in this state now consider ALL high schools students to be on the college preparatory track. It used to be that students could choose either a college prep track or a vocational track, and the graduation requirements were different for each. That is no longer the case. Now, for example, EVERY high school student is required to take 4 maths (Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, and one advanced math course beyond Algebra 2) in order to graduate. :(

[FaithManor]

In the case of the above student, I would go with whatever your state requirements are. Most states indicate an minimum number of credits to earn a highschool diploma.

 

If she doesn't have those, then I would add business classes to the list to accomplish. She could take a basic accounting course, a general business class, maybe take community college course on Quickbooks which is an accounting software package that many small businesses use, and then possibly a health class since salons do have health code regulations that must be adhered to or the stylists/owners can lose their licenses. So, I would focus on coursework that would be beneficial to her if she ever managed or owned a salon/spa.

 

Her math might be algebra, geometry, and then accounting 1, accounting 2 (unless your state requires algebra 2 in order to graduate, then you should add that so her portfolio of accomplishments is similar to the other graduates entering the program), four years of English and Comp, the usual social studies requirements, physical science, biology, and then maybe at something like marine biology or botany for her if your state doesn't specifiy anything past biology, two years of foreign language if that is required, then look at electives such as health, business management, business law, Quickbooks courses and Excel from Microsoft, etc.

 

I think in Michigan the minimum for non-exempt (those with significant learning disabilities) is algebra 1 and 2 plus geometry and then a fourth year of math but it does not have to be trig/pre-calc, US History, World History, Civics and Economics (1/2 credit for each), four years of English, Physical Science and Biology plus either a higher level science or an elective if the school offers it (our local one offers agricultural science), PE one credit - so maybe she could do a physical fitness study and log her hours (homeschoolers here are not required to really worry about documenting anything like that), 1 credit of visual, performing, or applied art, and they've added a two year foreign language requirement. That comes up to 18 and then they must have a minimum of two electives to total 20 and of course for college bound students it's recommended that they take the higher level maths and sciences plus more electives since they can take up to six classes per year plus some online options which totals 24.

 

I would consider 20 to be the minimum and if she really thinks she may want to own a business someday, I would push her more into the 24 range or use community college or vo-tech center to round out some educational options for her.

 

Faith

[Nscribe]

This may be one of those rare situations were a GED might be the answer?

[FaithManor]

See, there's the dilemma. Our state has undergone a LOT of education reform in recent years, and as I understand it, public high schools in this state now consider ALL high schools students to be on the college preparatory track. It used to be that students could choose either a college prep track or a vocational track, and the graduation requirements were different for each. That is no longer the case. Now, for example, EVERY high school student is required to take 4 maths (Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, and one advanced math course beyond Algebra 2) in order to graduate. :(

 

 

HMMMM just saw this post after I made mine. Call the cosmetology school, find out if they accept GED students. If they do, then if you take her through 20 credits, you've taken her farther than the GED students. In Michigan, the GED tests to a remedial 10th grade education meaning that it goes through pre-algebra and very basic English and reading comprehension, it is not nearly as difficult as taking the ACT. It is literally, the equivalency of what was once the third track of diplomas in Michigan...highschools offered College Prep, General (this was the track where it would be fairly easy to bump up to college prep mid-stream if one changes one's mind), and Basic/Vo-tech which did not require anything past algebra 1 or science past biology but included a LOT of vo-tech course work such as woodworking, metalworking, plumbing, mechanical work, etc and also involve apprenticeship to area business persons for credit - this diploma as been virtually eliminated in the last 20 years.

 

So, I guess I'd make some phone calls and find out what the cosmetology school requires. Also, do they take students from other states? Each state has their own graduation requirements. If a neighboring state has a general diploma that does not include a math that she is unable to complete, then graduate her according to those requirements...just make sure she's close to what your state requires and she's got the background the cosmetology school expects. Chances are, being a vo-tech school, they will not ask for a transcript with course descriptions.

 

It's tough when they really do not want to do the higher maths and so many states no longer have diploma tracks but funnel everyone through the college prep path.

 

Faith

[ereks mom]

This may be one of those rare situations were a GED might be the answer?

 

That's kind of what I'm thinking because this particular student would probably not be able to get through Algebra 2, let alone a math course beyond that. :-/

[daveswife]

Here in PA, the bare minimum credits required for a homeschooler to graduate are 4 English, 3 Social Studies, 3 Math, 3 Science, and 2 Arts/Humanities. The law further requires that the following areas must be covered in some way at the secondary level (7th-12th): geography, civics, world history, history of the United States and Pennsylvania, general mathematics, algebra, geometry, safety education (including fire safety), health and physiology, physical education, music, and art.

[Nan in Mass]

I have no idea, but something you might consider is having her take the placement tests at your local community college. If she tests into for-credit classes rather than remedial classes, then I would feel better about calling her graduated because I would have more confidence that she would make it through that program. I think I would feel better, also, if she had SOME state's basic number of required classes on her transcript, even if it isn't yours. Could you look at other states and find one that didn't require four years of math?

 

A few other thoughts - I think I would work on getting her enough basic science that she isn't swamped in her cosmotology classes, ditto with the math. Maybe make sure she can set up basic word problems and really understands fractions, percentages, decimals, and ratios and can convert between them. I think that would be more useful than algebra 2? Maybe enough history, geography, and government that she can vote intelligently and has some idea of what is going on in the world. Maybe enough health and nutrition that she can feed a family. For the rest of the credits, I would concentrate on business classes. How are her computer skills? Will she need good study skills to get through the program? Does your community college have a "how to go to college" class? That might be useful. The state of Florida used to have free curriculum for high school classes, stripped down ones suitable for dyslexic students. It was called PASS. That might be something to consider if she needs more credits?

 

I am NOT an expert at this, so be sure to take whatever I say with a giant dose of salt. : )

 

Nan

[jhschool]

Being older shouldn't matter much to the decision.

Sometimes it's good to be older. (Unless there is something I am missing.)

 

But there seem to be lots of good options:

 

1-GED

2-doing what local public school requires

3-doing what night school requires

4-doing what the graduates from other states do

 

Possible 5-Also call the cosmetology school. What do they require?

 

What you don't want is someone questioning the validity of your diploma down

the line and that messes up the cosmetology school.

 

Good luck!

[Nan in Mass]

Just wanted to add -

 

Make sure she is mature enough to get through her program when she goes, not just has enough academic skills.

And... if it were I, I would wonder whether it wouldn't be a good idea to have that GED, just in case anyone decides to question the homeschool diploma down the line? Maybe? Or just in case the program doesn't work out and she needs to be able to do something else, like community college? I don't really know... I think it would worry me until I had investigated whether it was a good idea. I wouldn't necessarily mention taking it until after she had done enough work with me that I was confident that she'd be able to get through the program, though, just in case the idea of being done more quickly derailed her? Maybe?

 

Nan

[AK_Mom4]

For a math credit for next year, have you considered having her do Practical Math for Consumers?

[MyThreeSons]

I have heard from several folks that cosmetology and other trade schools are often more picky about verifying a homeschool diploma than many community college and even four-year institutions. I would definitely check with the cosmetology school to see what they require.

[Mouseketeer67]

Here in Louisiana homeschoolers have two options - Non Approved Private School option & Approved Home Study Option. Private school option does not have to follow state graduation requirements, but in order to be admitted to cosmetology school with a homeschool diploma the student must have been in the "Approved Home Study Program". Meaning the homeshool has to be approved by the department of education. Parents shall ensure that their home study program will offer a sustained curriculum of a quality at least equal to that offered by public schools at the same grade level.

 

For incoming freshmen in 2009-2010 and beyond who are completing the Louisiana Basic Core Curriculum (non college bound courses), the minimum course requirements for graduation shall be the following.

 

1. English—4 units, shall be English I, II, III, and IV or Business English

2. Mathematics—4 units, shall be:

a. algebra I (1 unit) or algebra I-pt. 1 and algebra I-pt. 2 (2 units);

b. geometry;

c. the remaining units shall come from the following:

i. algebra II;

ii. financial mathematics;

iii. math essentials;

iv. advanced mathematics-pre-calculus;

v. advanced mathematics-functions and statistics;

vi. pre-calculus;

vii. calculus;

viii. probability and statistics;

ix. discrete mathematics, or

x. a locally initiated elective approved by BESE as a math substitute.

 

3. Science—3 units, shall be:

a. biology;

b. 1 unit from the following physical science cluster:

i. physical science;

ii. integrated science;

iii. chemistry I;

iv. physics I;

v. physics of technology I;

 

c. 1 unit from the following courses:

i. aerospace science;

ii. biology II;

iii. chemistry II;

iv. earth science;

v. environmental science;

vi. physics II;

vii. physics of technology II;

viii. agriscience II;

ix. anatomy and physiology;

x. an additional course from the physical science cluster; or

xi. a locally initiated elective approved by BESE as a science substitute.

 

(a). Students may not take both integrated science and physical science.

( Agriscience I is a prerequisite for agriscience II and is an elective course.)

 

4. Social Studies—3 units, shall be:

a. 1 unit of civics and/or AP American government, or 1/2 unit of civics or AP American government and 1/2 unit of free enterprise;

b. 1 unit of U.S. history;

c. 1 unit from the following: world history, world geography, western civilization, or AP European history.

 

5. Health and physical education—2 units.

6. Electives—8 units.

 

7. Total—24 units.

 

 

Cosmetology schools will also accept a GED.

[Mouseketeer67]

I think in your students case I would graduate her when she has taken English I, II, III & Business English; Algebra 1, Geometry, Math Essentials, & Finacial Mathematics; Physical Science, Biology, Earth Science; Civics & Free Enterprise, US History, World History; Health & PE; along with 8 electives of her choice.

[lewelma]

Having been a high school math teacher for a range of students, can I just say that it is NUTS to require all students to pass Algebra 2 to graduate. Perhaps things are way more watered down than when I took Algebra 2 in the 80s.

[ereks mom]

I think in your students case I would graduate her when she has taken English I, II, III & Business English; Algebra 1, Geometry, Math Essentials, & Finacial Mathematics; Physical Science, Biology, Earth Science; Civics & Free Enterprise, US History, World History; Health & PE; along with 8 electives of her choice.

 

Thank you. Your posts are very helpful. I think the math sequence you've mentioned might work well for us. What textbook is used for Math Essentials and for Financial Math? Thanks.

[michon]

The minimum requirements in California are: Algebra 1, 3 years of English, US History, World History, 2 years foreign language or Music, 1 physical science, 1 life science, 1 year physical education, health and electives (not sure how many). For someone that is looking into cosmetology I would add consumer/business math, bookkeeping (Quickbooks,etc.), a course in communications and a general business class. I say this with many years of small business experience.

 

I think it is important to be able to communicate with people, know her basic math (to avoid getting ripped off!), etc. than to do upper level math to graduate.

 

We really like the Teaching Textbooks for math, even for college prep students. The older level of TT is easier than the new release, which has added chapters.

[Barbara H]

You've gotten a lot of good advice. My big concern would be that in addition to meeting the requirements for graduation (so she can qualify for financial aid) is that she's also got the foundation she needs to be successful in the next step of her education. So, one idea may be to see if she could set up an informational interview (preferably with you coming along) with an advisor at the cosmetology school. It might be really helpful to hear what skills they most often see students struggle with so you know what areas that are most important to work on. Also, they could advise you on the requirements they have in place for students to qualify for financial aid. For profit schools are under a different level of scrutiny and it would be good to make sure you've got your bases covered.

 

Also, whether it is required or not, I would strongly encourage you to incorporate a personal finance course with a math focus. It is something all kids need and if she's struggled with math is is particularly important.

[Ellie]

In my state, homeschoolers are not required to earn a given number of credits, but most homeschoolers I know usually gear their curriculum so that their children earn at least the minimum number of credits required for admission to our state's university system: 4 math, 4 science, 4 English, 3 social science, 2 foreign language. This has worked well for my college-bound children, but what if a student does NOT plan to go to college?

 

As you may already know, I'm teaching other students in addition to my own. One is a 17 year old girl who has no desire to attend college, but instead plans to study cosmetology. At cosmetology school, she will not be required to take core classes, but will go right into her program, which will take a year and a half to complete. The school's catalog states that an applicant needs a high school diploma or its equivalent, and applicants who were homeschooled must provide a diploma or proof of graduation. The admission requirements do not specify a minimum number of credits per subject area.

 

This student came to homeschool with me at the beginning of this school year after having failed 10th grade last year at a local private school. She has an EXTREMELY hard time with math and with reading comprehension. She has done pretty well with me, and is passing all subjects. Even though technically, she is a 10th grader this year, we would like to consider next year her senior year and have her graduate and go on to her cosmetology school. Even if she graduates "on time", she will be nearly 19 by the time she graduates, but if next year isn't her senior year and she has another year after that, she'll be nearly 20 years old by the time she graduates from high school! That just doesn't sound right to me. At what point do you consider a non-college bound student ready to graduate? What do you consider "enough" for your students who will not be going to college?

 

 

I would graduate her and let her get on with her life.

[Nan in Mass]

Thinking about this a bit more - In my experience (I have older kids), the best program in the world won't do her any good IF SHE DOESN'T FINISH. Even half a year seems like forever at that age. I think you are right to try to find a way to graduate her as soon as possible. That means you will have to balance trying to get her as ready as possible for her cosmo program, getting her something "safe" as a high school diploma or certificate, and getting her done as soon as possible so she doesn't quit or get depressed enough that she can't finish high school. Michon's minimum California list looks good. Can she speak any Spanish (or another language)? If she can speak some, I'd give her a year's credit for Conversational Spanish. If she can speak enough to have a conversation involving things that happened in the past and things planned for the future, I'd give her credit for Conversational Spanish 1 and 2 (two years of credit) and call it done. If she doesn't, you could do Pimsleur tapes from the library and do the same thing. Can she play a musical instrument? If she can, you could give her that music credit. If not, perhaps she'd like to learn to play guitar? What else does she have experience in? Perhaps you could make those into electives for her? What about work-study credits or internship credits? It might be a good idea to find out what sort of business training her cosmo program is going to give her. If they are going to teach her accounting, then maybe you don't have to do that. You just have to make sure her basic math is solid enough that she can survive it. If her program doesn't teach any business, then you might want to make that an elective next year. Don't forget that you can graduate her mid-year. It doesn't have to happen at the end of spring.

 

Ellie is a good person to ask for advice. She has tons of experience.

 

Nan, who worries about all these struggling young people

[FaithManor]

 

Nan, who worries about all these struggling young people

 

 

I join you in your worry. I don't like the employment climate into which we currently release "baby" adults.

 

Faith

[Brenda in MA]

This may be one of those rare situations were a GED might be the answer?

:iagree:

I would look into what she would need to learn in order to pass the GED and focus on that. I also think the suggestion to make an appointment to talk with the Cosmetology school would be a good idea so she can hear what she needs to do directly from them. I also think the focus on business-type math and electives would be helpful to her in the long run. She should be able to understand why learning those things would be beneficial to her. I agree that keeping her upbeat and progressing towards a goal is the best way to go. I can see her getting depressed (since she already failed one year of school) if she is forced to do too much academic work that is a struggle for her and also not something she can see that would readily impact her future.

 

Best wishes,

Brenda

[Mouseketeer67]

Thank you. Your posts are very helpful. I think the math sequence you've mentioned might work well for us. What textbook is used for Math Essentials and for Financial Math? Thanks.

 

 

http://kenilworthst...._Essentials.pdf

I think that this book will cover most of what is listed in the pdf above. http://www.amazon.co...GED mathematics

 

 

http://www.amazon.co... Business Math:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Mathematics-Business-Applications-Activity-Workbook/dp/0078313759/ref=sr_1_11?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1362777346&sr=1-11&keywords=math+with+business+applications

[swimmermom3]

I have no idea, but something you might consider is having her take the placement tests at your local community college. If she tests into for-credit classes rather than remedial classes, then I would feel better about calling her graduated because I would have more confidence that she would make it through that program. I think I would feel better, also, if she had SOME state's basic number of required classes on her transcript, even if it isn't yours. Could you look at other states and find one that didn't require four years of math?

 

A few other thoughts - I think I would work on getting her enough basic science that she isn't swamped in her cosmotology classes, ditto with the math. Maybe make sure she can set up basic word problems and really understands fractions, percentages, decimals, and ratios and can convert between them. I think that would be more useful than algebra 2? Maybe enough history, geography, and government that she can vote intelligently and has some idea of what is going on in the world. Maybe enough health and nutrition that she can feed a family. For the rest of the credits, I would concentrate on business classes. How are her computer skills? Will she need good study skills to get through the program? Does your community college have a "how to go to college" class? That might be useful. The state of Florida used to have free curriculum for high school classes, stripped down ones suitable for dyslexic students. It was called PASS. That might be something to consider if she needs more credits?

 

I am NOT an expert at this, so be sure to take whatever I say with a giant dose of salt. : )

 

Nan

 

I think Nan is spot on in this case. My dd is currently in cosmetology school. She was glad to have had her chemistry course in high school and the Business Math course that solidified her understanding of proportions/ratios. Hair design covers knowledge of angles; hair color requires chemical bonding and adjusting color in proportion. Students spend a fair amount of time studying diseases of hair, skin, and nails and how to recognize them and prevent contamination. My dd chose a competency-based program instead of clock-hour program and she has to self-direct in studying for her practicals and her board licensing. Her final project for hair was to submit a business plan for a salon. Think about some of the skills needed to do these tasks.

 

While my dd's decision to not go on to college was difficult for me to swallow, one of the things I did her final year of high school was to push her to discuss and read books on a college level which she was more than capable of doing. I took her to plays and showed her how to seek out cultural events on the cheap. At the time, besides attending cosmetology school, she was considering marrying a soldier. Her life would have been very different than she was used to and I wanted her to be able to find beauty, inspiration, and a life of the mind regardless of where she lived or what her income was.

[Rebel Yell]

I don't have any advice on credits/graduation- but I am a non-working licensed cosmetologist. Encourage the girl to take business/accounting courses. Most of the salons I have watched go out of business, or worse: stay in business when they were costing the owner more than they were making- was due to poor business skills, usually in a phhenomenally talented hairdresser. And even if she never opens her own shop, business math skills will help her understand if she is getting a fair deal regarding her paycheck.

[Jaz]

 

I would graduate her and let her get on with her life.

 

 

I agree. She has a specific plan for her future. Let her start it.

[Tullia]

....At what point do you consider a non-college bound student ready to graduate? What do you consider "enough" for your students who will not be going to college?

 

...I wanted her to be able to find beauty, inspiration, and a life of the mind regardless of where she lived or what her income was.

 

I would agree with letting her get on with life since she has a plan. My hairdresser owns her own shop. I think she's phenomenally talented because she can make me look good even though I have "difficult" hair. She went directly to cosmetology school from high school and takes marketing and business courses geared toward salon owners through a continuing education program. She has a thriving salon that has done well at a time when lots of other small businesses couldn't make it.

 

Even if your student never owns her own shop, good business math skills could allow her to become a valuable assistant to someone else. Swimmermom3 made an excellent point about finding beauty, inspiration, and a life of the mind. Finding a way to incorporate those things into her final year of high school would be valuable to her as well.

[ereks mom]

So here's what we (mom, dad, student SJ & I) have decided: Next school year will be SJ's senior year. She will have to earn credits for:

 

-Spanish 2

 

-Working With Numbers Refresher

 

-Business & Consumer Math (some of each)

 

-Ancient History & Literature (That's what's next in my rotation & she will be learning with my other students.)

 

-Earth Science (Again, that's what's next in the rotation; I'd love for her to do chemistry, but she doesn't have the necessary math skills.)

 

-Another English/Literature credit (I'm hoping she will be able to pick up a credit in summer school.)

 

When she has finished this, she will be ready to graduate and go on to her cosmetology program.

 

Thanks for all your input. :)

 

ETA:

If she follows our plan, by next June she will have met the minimum requirements for admission to our state's university system, except for the math requirement. She would still need to take 2 math courses beyond Algebra 1. At present, however, she simply doesn't have that level of critical thinking skills. If she does decide to go to college at some later date, she would need two remedial math courses, and maybe by then she would developmentally ready for them. Right now, all she can see is getting finished with high school. :-/

[J-rap]

Here, you can access the public school site online and get the state requirements for both general high school graduation and college-bound students. We have referred to that many times.

[dragons in the flower bed]

In my state, homeschoolers are not required to earn a given number of credits, but most homeschoolers I know usually gear their curriculum so that their children earn at least the minimum number of credits required for admission to our state's university system: 4 math, 4 science, 4 English, 3 social science, 2 foreign language. This has worked well for my college-bound children, but what if a student does NOT plan to go to college?

At what point do you consider a non-college bound student ready to graduate? What do you consider "enough" for your students who will not be going to college?

 

 

I would:

 

1. Look at what is required by the career they want to have when they are done. You did this by looking at the cosmetology school's requirements. They only require a high school diploma, though. I would look up your local high school's graduation requirements. Not knowing your local school or even your state, I looked at NARHS, Clonlara and other homeschoolers' high schools. For non-college bound students, the consensus is something like: 4 English, 3 science including 1 lab, 2 social studies including U.S. gov't, 3 math credits, 1 phys ed, 1/2 health, and 4 1/2 electives to include some kind of art and music.

 

2. Make sure they have what they need to change their mind. If at age thirty this girl wants to go to college, will she be able to do so? Does she feel smart enough to do something like that? I am reluctant to write off any one as young as 18. I'd want my sons to have what the community colleges require for entrance even if they were completely certain they were never ever going to school.

[Nan in Mass]

Thank you for the update. It must be a relief to have decided on a plan. Best of luck to your student!

Nan