Uh Oh. If honey is a no for babies, can she not eat my whole wheat bread?

[momee]

Too late.

 

I just read about botulism in infants - and am worried I may be putting her at risk by feeding her my supposedly super healthy homemade homeground wheat bread.

 

I was researching because we just put the cans of tomatoes and tomato sauce in the fridge cuz the littler ones didn't know to put them into a food storage container and I need to know whether to toss them or not.

 

It's a question - is it ok for her to eat wheat bread made with honey? 10 mos if it matters...

 

Ya know, nothing's safe is it?????? Corn syrup, sugar, too many refined flours, saturated fat, etc.

 

Grass, maybe all we should eat is grass. No, the neighbors use fertilizer!

 

Grrrrrrrr - rant over

[East Coast Sue]

I think that honey is fine if it is baked or cooked into a recipe. The raw, uncooked form of honey can carry bacteria but cooking/baking should remove the risk.

[Ria]

You'd want to research it, I think. I know a child who, as a baby, got infant botulism and ended up on a respirator at the local children's hospital for 6 weeks. It was very scary (he's fine now...he's 11 and is thriving).

 

There are sections of the country that are "hot spots" for infant botulism (airborne as far as they can tell), and we live in one of them. The baby mentioned above was only 12 weeks old when he got sick; he'd had nothing but breastmilk.

 

Ria

[Ria]

I think that honey is fine if it is baked or cooked into a recipe. The raw, uncooked form of honey can carry bacteria but cooking/baking should remove the risk.

 

It's not bacteria, it's botulism spores that are the concern. The spores are ingested, and the botulism produces a neurotoxin as it grows in the child's intestine.

 

I just Googled - the spores are NOT destroyed in cooking. So, honey in any form is a no-go for babies.

 

Ria

[Jumping In Puddles]

Try making your bread without the honey, or substitute brown rice syrup or agave nectar for the next couple of months.

 

It would be even healthier without the added sugar.

[Janice in NJ]

When I run out of honey, I put maple syrup in my ww bread. Don't know for sure if that's safe either, but you could search to find out.

 

Peace,

Janice

[tricia]

I have always fed my babies food with honey in it. All 12 of them and have had no problem. Even warm cereal with a little honey drizzled and melted in. But I also know that using raw honey is different from pasteurized honey so if that's the kind of honey you are using I would just give it to baby in baked and cooked foods rather than the cereal.:001_smile:

[abbeyej]

I would not. Heat does not reduce the threat, and *if* a child got botulism, it could be devastating. Yes, most of them won't have any problem -- but if one did, it would be horrible, and it's so simple to avoid.

 

I guess I consider it about like car seats / seat belts. Sure, the vast majority of us would never have been horribly injured if we'd never used a seat belt. Really dangerous accidents happen frequently, in terms of the entire population and compared to other risks, but individually, many of us have never been in a significant accident (one that's worse than bumps and bruises) and never will be. But I still make my kids use car seats and wear a seatbelt *every*time* we're in the car. The risk is out there, and steps towards mitigating that risk are easy -- and far more important to me than the mild annoyance of having to deal with car seats and seat belts.

 

Sure, if we fed honey to babies, the vast majority would be okay. But the few who get botulism? ... (shudder)

 

I avoid giving honey to my kids till they're two. I love honey, but as foods to avoid go, it's pretty simple.

 

Perhaps consider maple syrup as an alternative in your bread for now?

[Shelly in the Country]

This link claims that neither cooking nor pasteurization destroys all botulism spores. Botulism in infants is rare, but does happen. I have a friend who told me she had a relative whose baby got botulism from being fed honey.

[iquilt]

You have to use some sugar to feed the yeast. I've been baking bread of all varieties for years and have never had success with the yeast without sugar and a tsp of salt. The yeast needs to eat something in order to work. Until baby is old enough I would substitute brown sugar, but you don't need much. I think for two loaves I only use 3 TBSP for success. HTH

[Tree House Academy]

Raw honey...not cooked is what I have always been told.

 

I asked the same question after feeding my now 5 yo honey nut cherrios when he was a baby. :) Doc told me then that it was honey from the hive or from the jar...not once it has been cooked or baked into something.

Edited May 2, 2009 by Tree House Academy

[Suzannah]

Yep, cooked honey is o.k. And I think it's only until age 1 that they are supposed to avoid raw honey.

 

Blessings!

[Ria]

Yep, cooked honey is o.k. And I think it's only until age 1 that they are supposed to avoid raw honey.

 

Blessings!

 

You are wrong, and posting such information could result in the illness of a child. I don't mean to sound harsh, but what you have posted could cause harm.

 

From the World Health Organization:

 

Human botulism is a serious but relatively rare disease. The disease is an intoxication caused by extremely potent toxins preformed in foods. The toxins are produced by the bacterium Clostridium botulinum. Person to person transmission of botulism does not occur. There are seven recognized types of botulism. Four of these (types A, B, E and rarely F) cause human botulism. Types C, D and E cause illness in mammals, birds and fish. The sporulated form of the bacterium is commonly found in soils, aquatic sediments and fish. The spores are heat-resistant. Under anaerobic conditions, botulinum spores can germinate, and the bacterium grow and produce the toxin. Ingestion of the toxin present in improperly prepared food is dangerous and may be fatal. Botulism is mainly a foodborne intoxication but it can also be transmitted through wound infections or intestinal infection in infants.

 

And, from the University of Florida's EDIS site:

Clostridium botulinum spores are extremely heat resistant, so while cooking at proper temperatures would destroy most foodborne pathogens, it does not destroy C. botulinum. While heat resistance is increased with higher pH and lower salt content medium, many of these spores can survive preservation methods which usually kill nonsporulating organisms.

 

Honey is a risk factor for infants. Cooking does NOT kill the spores which are the source of the infection.

 

Ria

Edited May 2, 2009 by Ria

[DarlaS]

Cooking is not baking. Water boils at 212 degrees and pasteurization is only 165/170 degrees (some go as high as 180).

 

It is definitely heat resistant but you can kill it if you get the temperature high enough, or none of us would survive eating canned vegetables - store bought or otherwise. Honey is not the only thing botulism is or would be in. Bot can kill adults too.

 

Using a pressure canner raises the temperature further to 240, baking is usually done @ 350 degrees or higher. Most bread recipes I've seen tend to be about 400 degrees. If 240 can kill them, I can't see how the little buggers would survive 400 degrees.

 

Of course, there are plenty of alternatives to honey to sweeten your bread. How about turbinado or organic sugar? It'd give your bread a nice molasses like kick. :001_smile:

[LaxMom]

:iagree:Yes, what Ria said, including the "harsh" bit.

 

For the WW bread, I would just use any other sugar you have lying around - except agave nectar. In my experience, the yeast do not love it like they do other sugars - the proofing seems a bit retarded and there's an off smell to the dough. (Smells perfectly normal after baking, but the loaves don't rise as well)

 

Other syrups (maple, brown rice, agave) are fine. The botulinum concern is a product of the hive, not because honey is liquid. Also, the reason we can eat it without concern is that our guts are acidic enough to kill the spores, but an infant's isn't.

[Ria]

Cooking is not baking. Water boils at 212 degrees and pasteurization is only 165/170 degrees (some go as high as 180).

 

It is definitely heat resistant but you can kill it if you get the temperature high enough, or none of us would survive eating canned vegetables - store bought or otherwise. Honey is not the only thing botulism is or would be in. Bot can kill adults too.

 

Using a pressure canner raises the temperature further to 240, baking is usually done @ 350 degrees or higher. Most bread recipes I've seen tend to be about 400 degrees. If 240 can kill them, I can't see how the little buggers would survive 400 degrees.

 

 

 

Baked good do not reach oven temperature on the inside. In fact, the average loaf of bread only reaches between 200 and 210 degrees in the center. Even the lowly baked potato has been linked to botulism infections... the spores were on the outside of the potato, which was wrapped in foil. The spores were not killed during baking.

 

To post that honey is safe if cooked is to spread misinformation that could harm or kill an infant.

 

Ria

[Renai]

You have to use some sugar to feed the yeast. I've been baking bread of all varieties for years and have never had success with the yeast without sugar and a tsp of salt. The yeast needs to eat something in order to work. Until baby is old enough I would substitute brown sugar, but you don't need much. I think for two loaves I only use 3 TBSP for success. HTH

 

I also use brown sugar in my wheat bread-- 1/4 cup, which I believe is 2 TBSP.

[wulfbourne]

I have a question along these lines then. I typically use honey in my bread as well. I was told it helps naturally preserve the bread a little longer. Do any of the other sweeteners help preserve as well?

[Shelly in the Country]

Even the lowly baked potato has been linked to botulism infections... the spores were on the outside of the potato, which was wrapped in foil. The spores were not killed during baking.

 

 

Wow, I never knew that. Thanks for posting that! I used to feed my kiddos part of my baked potatoes in restaurants when they were under two and not really big enough for their own meal. Of course, my youngest now is too picky to eat such things (he only likes breastmilk and Gerber sweet potato puffs), but still good info.

[Shelly in the Country]

I have a question along these lines then. I typically use honey in my bread as well. I was told it helps naturally preserve the bread a little longer. Do any of the other sweeteners help preserve as well?

 

 

I don't know about sweeteners, but I have a great bread making book called "The Laurel's Kitchen Bread Book" that has a list of breads that are "good keepers". They say that potato breads, breads with overnight rises, breads made of cooked cereals and breads made with honey and fat are all good keepers.

[Mom-ninja.]

I never would have thought twice about cooked/baked honey being a problem. My eyes have been opened.