Desperately seeking advice/wisdom for 2nd grade math!

[farmwife]

I am hitting a brick wall right now with math for my 7yodd. Just to give you some history.

 

As a 5yo(K)-Rod & Staff 1

As a 6yo(1st grade)- MUS Alpha, Saxon 2

Over this past summer I used Addition the fun Way! because she was still struggling with her math facts.

This fall we finished with Saxon 2 and then she did a math computer program for a month and now we started Rod & Staff 2. She did pretty well with Saxon 2 although she was still struggling with her math facts. It would take her at least 5 minutes to complete 100 facts. I wasn't too worried about it but I wanted to solidify those math facts before moving on to Saxon 3.

 

Well...

 

We started with R & S 2 and it was like she didn't know any math facts, like she had forgotten them all. I thought well, it must be the new format. O.k. no big deal. It starts from the beginning anyway. Well now everytime we go from addition to subtraction she seems to forget all the addition/subtraction she learned in the prior lessons. I am using flashcards but I concentrate on what we are currently working on either addition or subtraction. And Rod & Staff teaches math families so she should be able to figure out that 5 + 3=8, and 8-5=3. But SHE DOESN'T SEEM TO GET IT!!! I am spending a lot of time each day teaching/drilling/ working with her and it's like it just doesn't sink in. I don't know what I am doing wrong!!! I feel like she is never going to get it.

 

I just don't know if it's how I teach, if she just doesn't get math, or if it's the curriculum (I'm following everything in the teachers manual!). Please someone help me. I feel like I have been doing basically the same thing for 3 years, just different ways and it isn't working. Every time she 'learns' her math facts she seems to forget them!

 

How is that possible?

 

She isn't dumb, she reads really well, plays piano beautifully, does Rod & Staff Grammer easily. Why this brick wall in Math?!?!:confused:

 

I sincerely would appreciate any insight someone may have on the situation. I should point out that all other aspects of math are not a problem. She can count well, read numbers, read clocks, count money etc. It's just the math facts.

 

Please help!!!

 

Thank you,

~Heidi

[katemary63]

Two things. I didn't require my second grader to memorize the facts in order to do her problems. She did the "speed drills" and worked on flash cards. But I kept a number line up for her to "cheat" if needed when doing her math page. In 3rd grade, I took the number line away. She seems to have a better grasp on the facts this year and has learned the new ones easily. If she ever gets stuck on a subraction or division problem, I just say, "Opposite of addition (or multiplication)." to remind her.

 

Another thing. I just received Saxon 6/5 in the mail. I checked it out and it includes a 100 problem math facts drill for EVERY DAY. Including addition and subtraction. So...I'm thinking, If 5th or 6th graders need dialy drill, then it seems it just takes a while for some kids to get them down pat. Just keep drilling.

 

Also, with speed drills, we time the test and she quits when the timer goes off. I don't let her keep working. The idea is for the kid to TRY to do more each time. We keep a record and she gets excited when she breaks it or gets 100.

[farmwife]

Two things. I didn't require my second grader to memorize the facts in order to do her problems. She did the "speed drills" and worked on flash cards. But I kept a number line up for her to "cheat" if needed when doing her math page. In 3rd grade, I took the number line away. She seems to have a better grasp on the facts this year and has learned the new ones easily. If she ever gets stuck on a subraction or division problem, I just say, "Opposite of addition (or multiplication)." to remind her.

 

Another thing. I just received Saxon 6/5 in the mail. I checked it out and it includes a 100 problem math facts drill for EVERY DAY. Including addition and subtraction. So...I'm thinking, If 5th or 6th graders need dialy drill, then it seems it just takes a while for some kids to get them down pat. Just keep drilling.

 

Also, with speed drills, we time the test and she quits when the timer goes off. I don't let her keep working. The idea is for the kid to TRY to do more each time. We keep a record and she gets excited when she breaks it or gets 100.

 

WOW! Great insight. I have never let her use a number line. Maybe that would help.

 

Thanks for your ideas!

[Karen in CO]

I feel for you. I have been in about the same place. My dd got stuck in math just after basic addition and subtraction and couldn't get over the hump of carrying and borrowing. Math became almost toxic in our house because I couldn't see what she couldn't get. There is a really long story in of our in this, but the advice I have is don't require the memorization. Just move on. Over time I found that my dd loves word problems. The basic 8+7 is boring. Doing 100 problems every day is boring. FInd a more engaging way to approach the math. Move up to something more challenging. At the beginning of this year, my dd would cry at a page of "facts" . Today, she giggled while adding 4, two-digit numbers and subtracting 6 digit numbers. My dd grew into her "facts" as she used them in more complex problems.

[farmwife]

I feel for you. I have been in about the same place. My dd got stuck in math just after basic addition and subtraction and couldn't get over the hump of carrying and borrowing. Math became almost toxic in our house because I couldn't see what she couldn't get. There is a really long story in of our in this, but the advice I have is don't require the memorization. Just move on. Over time I found that my dd loves word problems. The basic 8+7 is boring. Doing 100 problems every day is boring. FInd a more engaging way to approach the math. Move up to something more challenging. At the beginning of this year, my dd would cry at a page of "facts" . Today, she giggled while adding 4, two-digit numbers and subtracting 6 digit numbers. My dd grew into her "facts" as she used them in more complex problems.

 

Thanks for the encouragement! She does do story problems easily. Hmm....more food for thought. Maybe I do need to back down and relax.

Should I forge ahead with Saxon 3??

[PeterPan]

Give her a Flashmaster and just keep practicing. 100 problems on a page makes my dd wilt. Try cutting the page up and having her just do 20 at a time.

[farmwife]

Give her a Flashmaster and just keep practicing. 100 problems on a page makes my dd wilt. Try cutting the page up and having her just do 20 at a time.

 

I'm willing to do anything at this point. Flashmaster it is!!!

Thank you!

[PeterPan]

Yes, the Flashmaster is great because you can quantify how much she's practicing (do 3 sets on it, whatever), and then reward her. We've done various things on the advice of people here, earning beans for each time she completes a set, that sort of thing. Sometimes my dd will do 20 sets at a time, so it's not arduous. It's a good way to practice because there's no writing, meaning they can cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time.

 

Seriously consider the length of the assignments in the written drills. Sometimes it's the length of the drill, where the dc just gets overwhelmed. My dd will do 4 pages of math, no problem, if you stagger them, hehe. With the 100 problems, if it really must be done, cut them up into 1/5s and do 20, do something else, do the next 20, do something else, like that. So then she's only doing it for 1 minute. That's still a lot of writing!

 

Some things just require perserverance on our part. I know some kids learn them quickly or just by you focusing on them for a week. Unfortunately, some kids need them over and over and over for years. Just look for her to get generally faster. It's going to come, just keep working on it. :)

[farmwife]

Yes, the Flashmaster is great because you can quantify how much she's practicing (do 3 sets on it, whatever), and then reward her. We've done various things on the advice of people here, earning beans for each time she completes a set, that sort of thing. Sometimes my dd will do 20 sets at a time, so it's not arduous. It's a good way to practice because there's no writing, meaning they can cover a lot of ground in a short amount of time.

 

Seriously consider the length of the assignments in the written drills. Sometimes it's the length of the drill, where the dc just gets overwhelmed. My dd will do 4 pages of math, no problem, if you stagger them, hehe. With the 100 problems, if it really must be done, cut them up into 1/5s and do 20, do something else, do the next 20, do something else, like that. So then she's only doing it for 1 minute. That's still a lot of writing!

 

Some things just require perserverance on our part. I know some kids learn them quickly or just by you focusing on them for a week. Unfortunately, some kids need them over and over and over for years. Just look for her to get generally faster. It's going to come, just keep working on it. :)

 

Well I just placed my order! Thanks for the encouragement.

[Sara in WA]

I'm so glad you posted as I'm having a similar situation with my daughter (who is about to turn 7). She is a bright girl in so many ways and yet looks like she has amnesia when given math facts to figure out.

 

I have been going back to Ruth Beechick's An Easy Start in Arithmetic and it gives me a lot to think about. For one, she suggests we rush our children too quickly from the manipulatives (hands on) of math to the abstract (i.e. the symbols 4+5). She suggests if we slow down, it will be better in the long run.

 

So I've been letting my dd use a 100s board, counters, whatever to figure out math problems. Another idea I need to implement once again is to have a number a week for math facts. For example, this is the 1 (or 7) week and each day she has flashcards, math wrap ups or a page of +1 or -1 math facts. Also math games are a painless way to practice. Have you seen Peggy Kaye's books? I'm a big fan of her learning games.

[Wee Pip]

Similar experience with both my daughters. Here's what I learned:

 

My now 8yo can add quite quickly recently. This happened mysteriously when I finally let go of memorization drill. She still has "off" days, however.

 

All 6yos go thru an amnesia phase. Seriously. 6yos are learning so much, but then they seem to forget the simpliest things. Both my girls "forgot" how to add 1 to a number as soon as I taught them a new math concept. I was continually pulling out manipulatives and saying, "ok, let's do this again. If I add 1 to a number, then I just move up one number. So 2 + 1 is...?" (and then banging my head against the wall, wondering what on earth just happened!)

[Reya]

If your child understands the math, she cannot make many mistakes in math facts, even to begin with.

 

Your daughter never understood what addition and subtraction mean. This is a major weakness of Saxon and R&S, both. The do not require comprehension, merely going through the motions, as if they were algorithmic rites.

 

I suggest, instead, that you switch to RightStart or Singapore math--particularly RightStart at this point.

[LinRTX]

Can you please explain what you mean here. I've looked at both Saxon and R&S and to me they do explain addition and subtraction. They use manipulatives. If I take 5 beans and then take thre more, how many do I have. Count them and you have 8. That is all addition is. That is all there is to understand. And both these program explain this.

 

By the way, I used Saxon through Calculus twice now, and had both kids do well in math. My son graduated with an EE degree almost a year ago and did it with high honors. He had to have understood the math.

 

Linda

[farmwife]

If your child understands the math, she cannot make many mistakes in math facts, even to begin with.

 

Your daughter never understood what addition and subtraction mean. This is a major weakness of Saxon and R&S, both. The do not require comprehension, merely going through the motions, as if they were algorithmic rites.

 

I suggest, instead, that you switch to RightStart or Singapore math--particularly RightStart at this point.

 

Thank you! I am strongly considering the switch to RightStart! Just need time to and money to make the switch. ;)

 

Would MUS do the same thing? Should I go through Alpha again? (Thinking outloud here!)

Edited March 5, 2009 by farmwife
added comment

[chiguirre]

We hit the same wall after Unit 1 in R&S Math 2! What's worse is that ds got so frustrated and anxious, he just couldn't think about addition or subtraction at all. I went back to the beginning with Math Mammoth because it's cheap, very concrete and one page doesn't seem to overwhelm ds. I also have MUS alpha and it's been a good tool too. If ds hasn't mastered his facts by June, I am going to go ahead using a numberline or table and just keep working on them. I'm pretty sure it's a developmental thing and there's no use making us both miserable. Weirdly, ds does love doing the MUS drill page. It's free, so it's well worth trying if you haven't.

[farmwife]

We hit the same wall after Unit 1 in R&S Math 2! What's worse is that ds got so frustrated and anxious, he just couldn't think about addition or subtraction at all. I went back to the beginning with Math Mammoth because it's cheap, very concrete and one page doesn't seem to overwhelm ds. I also have MUS alpha and it's been a good tool too. If ds hasn't mastered his facts by June, I am going to go ahead using a numberline or table and just keep working on them. I'm pretty sure it's a developmental thing and there's no use making us both miserable. Weirdly, ds does love doing the MUS drill page. It's free, so it's well worth trying if you haven't.

 

I'm glad we're not the only ones!! Maybe this curriculum just doesn't work for her!?!

Thanks for the ideas!:)

[Marylou]

You might be interested in this thread

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=79861

[Ellie]

Are you doing the oral class time with her? Not extra stuff...just what's in the oral class time. Are you using the visuals? Does she do all the seatwork? the blackline masters?

 

Before changing to a different publisher...again...I'd try doing R&S exactly as written. (You might already be doing that; I just couldn't tell from what you had written.)

 

And she's just 7. If she doesn't get everything this year, she'll get it next year.

[farmwife]

Are you doing the oral class time with her? Not extra stuff...just what's in the oral class time. Are you using the visuals? Does she do all the seatwork? the blackline masters?

 

Before changing to a different publisher...again...I'd try doing R&S exactly as written. (You might already be doing that; I just couldn't tell from what you had written.)

 

And she's just 7. If she doesn't get everything this year, she'll get it next year.

 

Yep! I cut out the ships and put up the waves and we do all the oral work and the chalkboard stuff in the beginning and the end of Class and we also use the blacklines when suggested.

 

I know...I know.....I hate giving up on another curriculum. I had high hopes for R & S. I bought all the workbooks and the blossom & bee posters and everything. I HATE wasting money!!:glare:

Edited March 5, 2009 by farmwife
added comment

[Haiku]

As much as I love RightStart, I don't recommend that you switch again. It sounds like your dd has already had three different math programs, and she's only in 2nd grade. All the switching could be overwhelming, and everything I have read is that consistency is the key.

 

Were I in your situation, I would take a month off from any curriculum and just work on the facts. But keep in mind that kids sometimes do experience brain melt, where they have trouble expressing something they know. That happens to my son occasionaly, and we use RightStart, which is extremely heavy on concepts. I know he knows the stuff because I see him use it in everyday life all the time. It's when we focus specifically on it in "math time" that it seems to lose context for him and he seems like he's "forgotten." (And this doesn't happen all the time, just sometimes).

 

I think that math is a developmental thing and that a child can understand it but still not be able to display it consistently just because of how daily circumstances wonk kids up.

 

Tara

[farmwife]

As much as I love RightStart, I don't recommend that you switch again. It sounds like your dd has already had three different math programs, and she's only in 2nd grade. All the switching could be overwhelming, and everything I have read is that consistency is the key.

 

Were I in your situation, I would take a month off from any curriculum and just work on the facts. But keep in mind that kids sometimes do experience brain melt, where they have trouble expressing something they know. That happens to my son occasionaly, and we use RightStart, which is extremely heavy on concepts. I know he knows the stuff because I see him use it in everyday life all the time. It's when we focus specifically on it in "math time" that it seems to lose context for him and he seems like he's "forgotten." (And this doesn't happen all the time, just sometimes).

 

I think that math is a developmental thing and that a child can understand it but still not be able to display it consistently just because of how daily circumstances wonk kids up.

 

Tara

Great advice! I think I'm not making any concrete decisions until we take a breather. I'm going to relax and slowly reintroduce math facts so maybe she will understand them, get her started with the Flashmaster and then maybe start up again, either R & S, MUS, or Saxon 3. We'll just have to wait and see. :confused:

[Penelope]

My son is also 6 and is just not memorizing the facts. And we have been using Flashmaster, so it's not a cure all, lol. :)

 

I know he gets it, he doesn't get them wrong, he just doesn't have them memorized. So he has to figure them out every single time. I had tried going back to manipulatives, but he tells me that is babyish and wants to do math in his head! He whizzed through Singapore 1B quickly but I'm not moving to 2A for a while. On the Flashmaster I catch him trying to do multiplication facts (Singapore briefly introduces multiplication in 1B) but I feel like we need to stop and solidify addition and subtraction for the rest of this school year. What is the rush, really?

[Gretchen in NJ]

Two things. I didn't require my second grader to memorize the facts in order to do her problems. She did the "speed drills" and worked on flash cards. But I kept a number line up for her to "cheat" if needed when doing her math page. In 3rd grade, I took the number line away. She seems to have a better grasp on the facts this year and has learned the new ones easily. If she ever gets stuck on a subraction or division problem, I just say, "Opposite of addition (or multiplication)." to remind her.

 

Another thing. I just received Saxon 6/5 in the mail. I checked it out and it includes a 100 problem math facts drill for EVERY DAY. Including addition and subtraction. So...I'm thinking, If 5th or 6th graders need dialy drill, then it seems it just takes a while for some kids to get them down pat. Just keep drilling.

 

Also, with speed drills, we time the test and she quits when the timer goes off. I don't let her keep working. The idea is for the kid to TRY to do more each time. We keep a record and she gets excited when she breaks it or gets 100.

I totally agree with your assessment. The math facts will come in time. I wouldn't start to worry at this age.:001_smile:

 

My girls like doing drills this way too, exept I have mine complete the rest after the timer has rung. They find them fun.