Pre-Algebra Advice

[Masers]

My son has been using TGATB math the last few years (4th-6th grade) with great success. He loves it, I love it, I am very happy with the curriculum. However, he needs to move on to pre-algebra next year for 7th grade, and they won’t release their pre-algebra course until the following year. BOO. I’m really disappointed, especially because I was hoping we had landed on our long-term math curriculum.

I’ve been looking into pre-algebra curriculums and I think I have it narrowed down to the following:

1) Derek Owens

2) Mr. D

3) Life of Fred (maybe as a supplement? We have used the elementary ones as supplemental)

4) Masterbooks—Principles of Mathematics, Jacobs Algebra and Geometry

5) Saxon with Nicole the Math Lady

I think Mr. D is probably my top choice as of now. However, I’m very interested to hear what other people have used and loved. 

I think I have ruled out: Teaching Textbooks, Math Mammoth, Math-U-See, Thinkwell, VideoText, Abeka, and BJU at this point, although I’m interested in any thoughts!

A little more info:

My son is mathy and does well with the subject. However, he has a low frustration tolerance and some programs, like Singapore and Beast Academy, didn’t work for him. He could DO it, but he didn’t like it at all. He liked Masterbooks Math Lessons for a Living Education because it was easy and fluffy and fun, but it wasn’t rigorous enough. What he likes about TGATB: the lesson layout, the video instruction, and like the little stories and activities they weave in there. For instance, a review might be like, traveling through the national parks and solving questions along the way. He likes that type of thing. I think the spiral method works well for him. The clean and beautiful visual layout is appealing. Their videos are really well done, both instructionally (he always gets it from the lesson, so it is hands-off for me!), but also just very modern and professional. 

I am NOT mathematically inclined and I really need someone else to teach the lessons. Right now, my role is simply checking the work and going over any wrong answers to make sure he gets it. The more hands off for me, the better (although I wouldn’t mind checking the work. I just do not feel confident at all in teaching at this point.)

He REALLY wants to be an engineer (and has since preschool), so he’ll need to do pre-algebra next year, then up through calculus by the time he graduates. We are hopefully going to homeschool all the way through. So I want to make sure he is very prepared for higher level courses…I definitely don’t want any decision I make to hinder his success in college, or getting into an engineering program! Eek. 

Anyway—that’s SUPER long, sorry! I am very interested to hear any thoughts about curriculum for the higher levels!

[ScoutTN]

Derek Owens

[EKS]

My son really enjoyed Derek Owens.  I sat with him and listened to the lectures, and when he already knew how to do the example problems, I had him do those orally with me writing so it went quickly.  We found that this sort of interaction made it more enjoyable for him.  He then did the practice problems, quizzes, and tests on his own.  

Anyway, a great thing is that DO provides grading.  If you aren't confident in math, you're going to find that very quickly, you won't be able to grade his work properly.  It stops being about just right answers in algebra--it's also about how it's worked out.  And in geometry, there can be many correct ways to write a proof.

DO is truly excellent.  His precalculus and calculus classes in particular were fabulous preparation (for me) for the program I'm doing now (see signature below).

[Masers]

Awesome—thank you both!! I’m glad to hear that!

[Masers]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:18 PM, EKS said:

My son really enjoyed Derek Owens.  I sat with him and listened to the lectures, and when he already knew how to do the example problems, I had him do those orally with me writing so it went quickly.  We found that this sort of interaction made it more enjoyable for him.  He then did the practice problems, quizzes, and tests on his own.  

Anyway, a great thing is that DO provides grading.  If you aren't confident in math, you're going to find that very quickly, you won't be able to grade his work properly.  It stops being about just right answers in algebra--it's also about how it's worked out.  And in geometry, there can be many correct ways to write a proof.

DO is truly excellent.  His precalculus and calculus classes in particular were fabulous preparation (for me) for the program I'm doing now (see signature below).

One quick question—how long does it take to get corrections back? Do you think it detracts from understanding by having a “gap” in learning/completing the work and getting the grading back? Also, maybe I’m just not getting it, but are the lectures all live? It sounds like there is a self-paced version as well…i probably just need to poke around a little more. I did listen to a couple sample lectures, and was impressed. I *think* it will be a good fit, and this is now at the top of my list. Thank you for your help. 

[EKS]

2 hours ago, Masers said:

One quick question—how long does it take to get corrections back? Do you think it detracts from understanding by having a “gap” in learning/completing the work and getting the grading back? Also, maybe I’m just not getting it, but are the lectures all live?

The lectures are recorded unless you're in the Atlanta area and then you can choose to attend an actual class.

With regard to getting corrections back, it usually takes a few days.  However, there are solutions provided for the practice problems.  So DO grades what he calls "homework" but what are really open book quizzes as well as tests and semester exams.

It is also possible for practically any sort of computational problem you encounter in high school math to get an answer (and frequently even all the steps) by using various online calculators.  

Edited January 24 by EKS

[Masers]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

The lectures are recorded unless you're in the Atlanta area and then you can choose to attend an actual class.

With regard to getting corrections back, it usually takes a few days.  However, there are solutions provided for the practice problems.  So DO grades what he calls "homework" but what are really open book quizzes as well as tests and semester exams.

It is also possible for practically any sort of computational problem you encounter in high school math to get an answer (and frequently even all the steps) by using various online calculators.  

Gotcha! Thank you. I like the sound of it!!

[Asker123]

Good decision. If he did not like beast academy than AOPS pre algebra could be a challenge.

[Green Bean]

Isn't TGTB releasing Math 7 this summer? That might be an option to consider if your guy is loving it. We use teaching textbooks for our pre-algebra to algebra 2 sequence. Clear, easy to understand, and use.

[Masers]

On 2/8/2024 at 8:53 AM, Asker123 said:

Good decision. If he did not like beast academy than AOPS pre algebra could be a challenge.

That’s what I was thinking. It seems like AOPS is the gold standard around here, but beast academy was a miserable flop for us. Again, it was less a matter of his ability to do it and more about how it was taught and practiced. Each lesson was a struggle with tears. 

[Masers]

18 hours ago, Green Bean said:

Isn't TGTB releasing Math 7 this summer? That might be an option to consider if your guy is loving it. We use teaching textbooks for our pre-algebra to algebra 2 sequence. Clear, easy to understand, and use.

They are! But, unfortunately, Math 7 is not considered pre-algebra, which is what he needs to take next year. Their math 7 is going to be more of a review/strengthening of the concepts taught in math 6. They won’t release their pre-algebra course until 2025…too late for us! 
 

I’ll probably use something more like teaching textbooks for my second son, who is more oriented towards language arts and less math inclined. But since my oldest is very adamant about engineering for a career, i feel pressured to make sure he has a very strong math background. Teaching textbooks reviews are just a little top mixed on that for me to feel comfortable! It’s great to hear you love it…my friends who use it irl also love it. 

[ktgrok]

On 1/22/2024 at 9:30 PM, Masers said:

My son has been using TGATB math the last few years (4th-6th grade) with great success. He loves it, I love it, I am very happy with the curriculum. However, he needs to move on to pre-algebra next year for 7th grade, and they won’t release their pre-algebra course until the following year. BOO. I’m really disappointed, especially because I was hoping we had landed on our long-term math curriculum.

I’ve been looking into pre-algebra curriculums and I think I have it narrowed down to the following:

1) Derek Owens

2) Mr. D

3) Life of Fred (maybe as a supplement? We have used the elementary ones as supplemental)

4) Masterbooks—Principles of Mathematics, Jacobs Algebra and Geometry

5) Saxon with Nicole the Math Lady

I think Mr. D is probably my top choice as of now. However, I’m very interested to hear what other people have used and loved. 

I think I have ruled out: Teaching Textbooks, Math Mammoth, Math-U-See, Thinkwell, VideoText, Abeka, and BJU at this point, although I’m interested in any thoughts!

A little more info:

My son is mathy and does well with the subject. However, he has a low frustration tolerance and some programs, like Singapore and Beast Academy, didn’t work for him. He could DO it, but he didn’t like it at all. He liked Masterbooks Math Lessons for a Living Education because it was easy and fluffy and fun, but it wasn’t rigorous enough. What he likes about TGATB: the lesson layout, the video instruction, and like the little stories and activities they weave in there. For instance, a review might be like, traveling through the national parks and solving questions along the way. He likes that type of thing. I think the spiral method works well for him. The clean and beautiful visual layout is appealing. Their videos are really well done, both instructionally (he always gets it from the lesson, so it is hands-off for me!), but also just very modern and professional. 

I am NOT mathematically inclined and I really need someone else to teach the lessons. Right now, my role is simply checking the work and going over any wrong answers to make sure he gets it. The more hands off for me, the better (although I wouldn’t mind checking the work. I just do not feel confident at all in teaching at this point.)

He REALLY wants to be an engineer (and has since preschool), so he’ll need to do pre-algebra next year, then up through calculus by the time he graduates. We are hopefully going to homeschool all the way through. So I want to make sure he is very prepared for higher level courses…I definitely don’t want any decision I make to hinder his success in college, or getting into an engineering program! Eek. 

Anyway—that’s SUPER long, sorry! I am very interested to hear any thoughts about curriculum for the higher levels!

I don't know if it is rigorous enough for a really mathy kid, but Dennison math is a huge hit here. Very well done, very clear, absolutely NO frustration with anything as far as videos/solutions/etc. It's designed to be VERY predictable - There is a short video lesson where the concept is taught and then he works out sample problems. The sample problems are in the student notebook - it is always a 2 page spread, and always EXACTLY what is on the screen. They work them out along with the teacher. Then they work a problem out and see if they get it right (pausing the video). Then they see the solution. Then the actual assignment is also always a 2 page spread. That predictability seems silly, but it really helps math anxious kids feel confident - they don't waste brain power wondering how long the lesson is, they can just focus on the math. Every single problem is worked out in the solution manual PLUS there is a solution video for every lesson - where every problem is worked out on the video. Every test has a review first, and practice test. Then each test has a second version - if they don't do well on the first try they can retake it using the "version B" which is same format but different numbers/problems. Again, relieves anxiety knowing there is a do-over which frees them up to just focus on math. 

Sounds like your kid doesn't need that - but wanted to mention it in case. 

[Masers]

On 2/9/2024 at 3:19 PM, ktgrok said:

I don't know if it is rigorous enough for a really mathy kid, but Dennison math is a huge hit here. Very well done, very clear, absolutely NO frustration with anything as far as videos/solutions/etc. It's designed to be VERY predictable - There is a short video lesson where the concept is taught and then he works out sample problems. The sample problems are in the student notebook - it is always a 2 page spread, and always EXACTLY what is on the screen. They work them out along with the teacher. Then they work a problem out and see if they get it right (pausing the video). Then they see the solution. Then the actual assignment is also always a 2 page spread. That predictability seems silly, but it really helps math anxious kids feel confident - they don't waste brain power wondering how long the lesson is, they can just focus on the math. Every single problem is worked out in the solution manual PLUS there is a solution video for every lesson - where every problem is worked out on the video. Every test has a review first, and practice test. Then each test has a second version - if they don't do well on the first try they can retake it using the "version B" which is same format but different numbers/problems. Again, relieves anxiety knowing there is a do-over which frees them up to just focus on math. 

Sounds like your kid doesn't need that - but wanted to mention it in case. 

It doesn’t sound like this kid…but it does sound like my second kid! Thank you! I’ve never heard of Dennison! 

[ByGrace3]

We have been very happy with Mr. D Math. My oldest completed Algebra 1 through Precalc. DS pre algebra through currently doing Precalc. YDD preagebra through currently doing Algebra 1. Happy to answer any questions you have! 

[Masers]

3 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

We have been very happy with Mr. D Math. My oldest completed Algebra 1 through Precalc. DS pre algebra through currently doing Precalc. YDD preagebra through currently doing Algebra 1. Happy to answer any questions you have! 

That is great to hear! Thank you. He goes through calculus, right? I am going to a homeschool conference next month and they are having someone from Mr. D come to talk. I’m going to go to all the math talks before I make a final decision. Leaning towards Derek Owens, but Mr. D is a strong contender. 

[ByGrace3]

10 hours ago, Masers said:

That is great to hear! Thank you. He goes through calculus, right? I am going to a homeschool conference next month and they are having someone from Mr. D come to talk. I’m going to go to all the math talks before I make a final decision. Leaning towards Derek Owens, but Mr. D is a strong contender. 

Mr D does go through Calculus. Mr D's convention talks are always excellent -- not sure if he is the one going to be there but if he is, he is great! 

[Masers]

6 hours ago, ByGrace3 said:

Mr D does go through Calculus. Mr D's convention talks are always excellent -- not sure if he is the one going to be there but if he is, he is great! 

Thanks! Are your older kids graduated? Did you feel Mr. D adequately prepared them for college? (If they went?)

[ByGrace3]

23 hours ago, Masers said:

Thanks! Are your older kids graduated? Did you feel Mr. D adequately prepared them for college? (If they went?)

My oldest graduated last year. She completed College Algebra, Precalc and Statistics through DE all before she graduated. She felt very prepared. 

[8filltheheart]

I don't have any real suggestions for you if you want completely hands off.  One recommendation I would make for the rest of 6th grade might be to supplement with something like Hands On Equations Verbal Problems Book.  I use the book with my 3rd-5th or 4th-6th graders (depends on their general math abilities).  The word problems are great way to start thinking about how equations work and simple algebraic thinking with working on both sides of an equation or simple substitution.  There is a completely worked out solutions manual, so you don't have to understand yourself.  The SM provides great explanations.

Fwiw, my kids have only ever used DO's pre-cal and physics courses.  2 of my kids had zero problems with his approach and excelled.  One felt there were gaps in his explanations and she couldn't bridge the information without finding explanations. So, I had to work with her in addition to his teaching to make sure she understood and help explain concepts that were not as well developed.

[Masers]

8 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I don't have any real suggestions for you if you want completely hands off.  One recommendation I would make for the rest of 6th grade might be to supplement with something like Hands On Equations Verbal Problems Book.  I use the book with my 3rd-5th or 4th-6th graders (depends on their general math abilities).  The word problems are great way to start thinking about how equations work and simple algebraic thinking with working on both sides of an equation or simple substitution.  There is a completely worked out solutions manual, so you don't have to understand yourself.  The SM provides great explanations.

Fwiw, my kids have only ever used DO's pre-cal and physics courses.  2 of my kids had zero problems with his approach and excelled.  One felt there were gaps in his explanations and she couldn't bridge the information without finding explanations. So, I had to work with her in addition to his teaching to make sure she understood and help explain concepts that were not as well developed.

Thanks for this. Did you feel like DO’s stuff was hands off for the two kids that didn’t need extra help?

I do hate being *that mom* who is l Ike, “I don’t want anything to do with math, has to be totally hands off,” but I really feel like for his benefit, I should not be doing much. Ha. When he runs into trouble with a problem even NOW, in 6th grade pre-algebra style math, I’m like, “hmmm…” Usually I can figure it out, but, not going to lie…today I couldn’t. I finally had to just give him the answer, and then he worked backwards from that and figured it out and explained it to me. Ha. Like I don’t want to do him a disservice!! He needs someone way better than me!

That supplement sounds great!! I appreciate the suggestion! 

[Masers]

On 2/12/2024 at 12:50 PM, ByGrace3 said:

My oldest graduated last year. She completed College Algebra, Precalc and Statistics through DE all before she graduated. She felt very prepared. 

Excellent! Did she go into any sort of STEM/math field, by chance?

[8filltheheart]

15 minutes ago, Masers said:

Thanks for this. Did you feel like DO’s stuff was hands off for the two kids that didn’t need extra help?

I do hate being *that mom* who is l Ike, “I don’t want anything to do with math, has to be totally hands off,” but I really feel like for his benefit, I should not be doing much. Ha. When he runs into trouble with a problem even NOW, in 6th grade pre-algebra style math, I’m like, “hmmm…” Usually I can figure it out, but, not going to lie…today I couldn’t. I finally had to just give him the answer, and then he worked backwards from that and figured it out and explained it to me. Ha. Like I don’t want to do him a disservice!! He needs someone way better than me!

That supplement sounds great!! I appreciate the suggestion! 

Yes. Completely hands off. But, they were high achieving high school students.

Once you hit algebra, you might try Math without Borders with the Foerster's alg 1 and 2 texts. They are pretty self-teaching and provide an excellent foundation for kids pursuing STEM careers.

[ByGrace3]

On 2/13/2024 at 5:58 PM, Masers said:

Excellent! Did she go into any sort of STEM/math field, by chance?

She is doing her undergrad in exercise science with the goal of physical therapy school. 

[seemesew]

Have you thought of doing Thinkwell? I've heard some great things about it.

[Masers]

On 2/14/2024 at 8:34 PM, ByGrace3 said:

She is doing her undergrad in exercise science with the goal of physical therapy school. 

That’s awesome! Thanks!

[Masers]

23 hours ago, seemesew said:

Have you thought of doing Thinkwell? I've heard some great things about it.

I looked at it! It looked good, too!

[OakParkOwlets]

My daughter wants to be an Engineer as well and keeps telling me how much she loves algebra and wants to get to calculus ASAP. LOL. She did Math Mammoth for grades 1-6 but didn't want to do their pre-algebra this year so we went kind of a random route.  She did Learn Math Fast books 1-2 as a review.  Then did the free Pre-Algebra class at Easy Hard Science https://learnwithdrscott.com/course/free-pre-algebra-won/, which only takes about 6-8 weeks.  Now she is doing Learn Math Fast books 3-4, then we will move directly into algebra.  We are planning on doing the Algebra I/II classes at Easy Hard Science since she likes his video format. I emailed the person who presents the courses, because it looked honestly too short and easy, and he assured me that, as a chemical engineer himself, it was plenty of algebra preparation for a child who wants to pursue an engineering degree with the exception of proofs if they are interested in that.  We have a MiaPrep lifetime subscription so my plan was to have her take the Algebra tests they have on their site just to confirm she was retaining the information and just keep moving forward. 🙂

 

[Masers]

On 2/16/2024 at 4:54 PM, OakParkOwlets said:

My daughter wants to be an Engineer as well and keeps telling me how much she loves algebra and wants to get to calculus ASAP. LOL. She did Math Mammoth for grades 1-6 but didn't want to do their pre-algebra this year so we went kind of a random route.  She did Learn Math Fast books 1-2 as a review.  Then did the free Pre-Algebra class at Easy Hard Science https://learnwithdrscott.com/course/free-pre-algebra-won/, which only takes about 6-8 weeks.  Now she is doing Learn Math Fast books 3-4, then we will move directly into algebra.  We are planning on doing the Algebra I/II classes at Easy Hard Science since she likes his video format. I emailed the person who presents the courses, because it looked honestly too short and easy, and he assured me that, as a chemical engineer himself, it was plenty of algebra preparation for a child who wants to pursue an engineering degree with the exception of proofs if they are interested in that.  We have a MiaPrep lifetime subscription so my plan was to have her take the Algebra tests they have on their site just to confirm she was retaining the information and just keep moving forward. 🙂

 

Interesting! I have never heard of this! I looked at the site. It does look fairly easy….I looked at the algebra 1 worksheets and it was stuff he is doing now in sixth grade math? I think? I also have no clear understanding of the scope and sequence of pre-algebra/Algebra/algebra2. That’s awesome that it’s a chemical engineer doing it! I’ll keep this in mind! It looks fun and pretty self-explanatory. 

[OakParkOwlets]

9 minutes ago, Masers said:

Interesting! I have never heard of this! I looked at the site. It does look fairly easy….I looked at the algebra 1 worksheets and it was stuff he is doing now in sixth grade math? I think? I also have no clear understanding of the scope and sequence of pre-algebra/Algebra/algebra2. That’s awesome that it’s a chemical engineer doing it! I’ll keep this in mind! It looks fun and pretty self-explanatory. 

Subscribe to his email list if you haven't already.  I have seen at least two 50% off coupons sent out for the Algebra I/II bundle in the past few months, and I know there is a coupon at the end of the free pre-algebra course for just Algebra I if you try that and like the format.

[Masers]

23 hours ago, OakParkOwlets said:

Subscribe to his email list if you haven't already.  I have seen at least two 50% off coupons sent out for the Algebra I/II bundle in the past few months, and I know there is a coupon at the end of the free pre-algebra course for just Algebra I if you try that and like the format.

Thanks!!