8-year-old son resistant to anything too difficult

[Angela Mora]

My son just turned 8 and is struggling with any subject he finds too difficult. I am trying to have him learn multiplication, but he says he will just fail at memorizing. I've tried outsourcing the subject with themes he likes (Minecraft math, etc), but eventually he gives up. He reads well, but refuses to try harder books because he doesn't want to struggle to sound it out. He says he wants to learn cursive, but then he complains it's too difficult.

I'm tired of struggling with him to do his work. I don't know if the subjects are legitimately too hard for him or he just is immature. Should I take a break? Put him back a year? I just don't know what to do. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Xahm]

Is this a new thing for him, or long-standing? I'd be trying to figure out where he got the idea that it's better not to try and address that if possible. My kid who is 9 will sometimes act really silly if he's worried that he will mess up. He's setting himself up to be able to say, "of course I messed up, I was just goofing around" because that's easier to process than, "I tried hard and still messed up." When he gets in that mode, I stop and remind him that I'm asking him to do something hard and I expect him to not get it right away. If he can do something 100% easily the very first try, we're just wasting time. My kid is great with math things but struggles a bit with spelling. I let him know it's hard for lots of people, including me, and I go over strategies that help me. It's important to be explicit with some kids that messing up is part of learning. If my kids don't try their best and mess up anyway, I don't know where they need help. It's their mistakes that I can use to help them learn. I've even said, "thank you so much for making that mistake while I was watching! I knew this was hard, but now I know why!"

[Angela Mora]

It's been a problem since last year. I've tried addressing the idea that you have to make mistakes to learn, I make mistakes, etc, but it doesn't seem to make a difference to him. We've done some growth mindset activities as well. I think it's a perfectionist thing, but I'm not sure how to get past it.

[Rosie_0801]

I found with mine when she was young that she couldn't push forward in both English and maths at the same time, so they took turns being in maintenance mode.

The other thing I tell kids is that it is impossible to be brilliant at everything, but if you are good at practicing stuff, you get a long way even if it takes ages. Some kids respond well to trying = bravery.

When I've dealt with a perfectionist type, I've been blunter about it. I've flat out told them they aren't very good at trying and they were so horrified they were immediately very good at trying. This obviously won't work on someone who would rather sook.

[lewelma]

I am of the belief that if they can, they will.  I would suggest that the content is too difficult or in some way inappropriate.   

[Not_a_Number]

20 minutes ago, lewelma said:

I am of the belief that if they can, they will.  I would suggest that the content is too difficult or in some way inappropriate.   

That can really break down with anxiety issues, though. That's what I've seen the most of in my family -- not that the content is too hard, but that the content makes them anxious and then they can't tackle it. 

[lewelma]

32 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

That can really break down with anxiety issues, though. That's what I've seen the most of in my family -- not that the content is too hard, but that the content makes them anxious and then they can't tackle it. 

My philosophy is broad. Anxiety means that they can't.  To me, when I say that someone *can* do something, it means that they have the intellectual capability, the emotional stability, and the desire to do the work.  If any one aspect is missing, than they can't do it, not that they won't, but that they can't. And the only way to make the desired outcome happen is to figure out which issue is the problem and work to resolve it. To say that a kid can, because they intellectually can, chops the whole person into pieces and isolates critical characteristics from each other even when the person experiences the problem as a whole. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

My philosophy is broad. Anxiety means that they can't.  To me, when I say that someone *can* do something, it means that they have the intellectual capability, the emotional stability, and the desire to do the work.  If any one aspect is missing, than they can't do it, not that they won't, but that they can't. And the only way to make the desired outcome happen is to figure out which issue is the problem and work to resolve it. To say that a kid can, because they intellectually can, chops the whole person into pieces and isolates critical characteristics from each other even when the person experiences the problem as a whole. 

Yeah. I’d agree with that!! 

Your post flattened it too much, I think, though. Like, to deal with anxiety, you wouldn’t necessarily change the CONTENT, just the approach. Same for other challenges.

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

Yeah. I’d agree with that!! 

Your post flattened it too much, I think, though. Like, to deal with anxiety, you wouldn’t necessarily change the CONTENT, just the approach. Same for other challenges.

Agreed that my post was flat. You know me, I could write a book. lol. However, I'm not sure I completely agree. When I have students with anxiety, the first step is to reduce expectations across the board. Make things easier for a time because in my experience success breeds success.  So have them succeed, then slowly ever so slowly build up the level of work. And while you are doing that, you are dealing with the underlying cause of the anxiety.  For me, tutoring is about 40% content and 60% emotional work. So in the OP's situation, I would consider the work too hard for her child's current state of mind.  I fundamentally believe that if a child can, they will. So the flip of that, is that if they won't that means they can't, and it is my job to figure out why.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, lewelma said:

Agreed that my post was flat. You know me, I could write a book. lol. However, I'm not sure I completely agree. When I have students with anxiety, the first step is to reduce expectations across the board. Make things easier for a time because in my experience success breeds success.  So have them succeed, then slowly ever so slowly build up the level of work. And while you are doing that, you are dealing with the underlying cause of the anxiety.  For me, tutoring is about 40% content and 60% emotional work. So in the OP's situation, I would consider the work too hard for her child's current state of mind.  I fundamentally believe that if a child can, they will. So the flip of that, is that if they won't that means they can't, and it is my job to figure out why.

You should totally write a book 😁.

Yeah, I can l see that being a good approach. I see what you mean.

[PeterPan]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:35 PM, Angela Mora said:

I'm tired of struggling with him to do his work. I don't know if the subjects are legitimately too hard for him or he just is immature. Should I take a break? Put him back a year?

What grade are you calling him this year? With his bday being very close to the cutoff, it does sound like he's struggling with the expectations. Developmental maturity is real and some of these things might come together naturally a year from now.

A typical 2nd grader turns 8 during the school year, so I would suggest calling him a 2nd grader. This will put him on the mature side of his grade and make developmentally realistic expectations.

I would then consider using approaches that decrease stress and anxiety, because stress shuts down learning. Try focusing on things he does WELL and try playing games for a while or doing things that go well. Math is super easy to work on with games, so do more games. 

If he continues to struggle with anxiety and stress in spite of the grade adjustment, I would consider evals to see what is going on and get advice specific to him. He may be dealing with some ADHD, anxiety, working memory deficits, low processing speed, etc. Working memory is necessary to get information from short term to long term memory, so low working memory can make it hard to memorize math facts, yes. In that case, simple things like PLAYING GAMES can be a great way to build working memory and improve retention.

At that age, one of my favorite games is Catan Jr. We also enjoyed cooperative games like The Secret Door, which is FANTASTIC for building working memory.  Cooperative games are great for kids who get stressed, because you win together, lose together, and can just play again if you lose. 🙂

[Angela Mora]

44 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

What grade are you calling him this year? With his bday being very close to the cutoff, it does sound like he's struggling with the expectations. Developmental maturity is real and some of these things might come together naturally a year from now.

A typical 2nd grader turns 8 during the school year, so I would suggest calling him a 2nd grader. This will put him on the mature side of his grade and make developmentally realistic expectations.

I would then consider using approaches that decrease stress and anxiety, because stress shuts down learning. Try focusing on things he does WELL and try playing games for a while or doing things that go well. Math is super easy to work on with games, so do more games. 

If he continues to struggle with anxiety and stress in spite of the grade adjustment, I would consider evals to see what is going on and get advice specific to him. He may be dealing with some ADHD, anxiety, working memory deficits, low processing speed, etc. Working memory is necessary to get information from short term to long term memory, so low working memory can make it hard to memorize math facts, yes. In that case, simple things like PLAYING GAMES can be a great way to build working memory and improve retention.

At that age, one of my favorite games is Catan Jr. We also enjoyed cooperative games like The Secret Door, which is FANTASTIC for building working memory.  Cooperative games are great for kids who get stressed, because you win together, lose together, and can just play again if you lose. 🙂

Thanks for your response. I did consider putting him in a lower grade due to him being close to the cut-off. While I do consider him 3rd grade because I know he can do the work, the more recent struggles do suggest he might be better with lower expectations. It's just hard to find a balance because if I make it too easy he complains, but then things at his level are too hard. I do believe it's mostly anxiety related. He also struggles with the emotional maturity. I will try doing more games (I did buy a lot last year when he was struggling but haven't implemented them as much this year). I will look into changing my approach as well. I appreciate all your specific suggestions!

[Angela Mora]

15 hours ago, lewelma said:

Agreed that my post was flat. You know me, I could write a book. lol. However, I'm not sure I completely agree. When I have students with anxiety, the first step is to reduce expectations across the board. Make things easier for a time because in my experience success breeds success.  So have them succeed, then slowly ever so slowly build up the level of work. And while you are doing that, you are dealing with the underlying cause of the anxiety.  For me, tutoring is about 40% content and 60% emotional work. So in the OP's situation, I would consider the work too hard for her child's current state of mind.  I fundamentally believe that if a child can, they will. So the flip of that, is that if they won't that means they can't, and it is my job to figure out why.

Thanks for all your input. I agree that I need to work on the emotional work and try to ease into the subject matter. I always believe that resistance has meaning, and much of what he's doing is anxiety-related. I will try to reduce my expectations for a time and build up his confidence.

[Not_a_Number]

I have experience with anxious kids who also get bored by easier content. Both of mine fit that mold. 

For us, this is a tricky problem. We've dealt with it in a few ways: 

* Making sure that we're working together as a team (I really like The Explosive Child for a guide on how to do this, even for non-explosive children.) 

* Approaching the same content from a different angle (I think DD11 learned to add multidigit numbers way back when she was 5 in the service of converting from binary to decimal. She didn't want to do it unless there was a REASON.) 

* Taking a break until the kid is ready to work on something. 

You have my sympathy! This is a tricky thing. 

[Not_a_Number]

27 minutes ago, Angela Mora said:

I will try doing more games (I did buy a lot last year when he was struggling but haven't implemented them as much this year).

Do you need a multiplication game? I have a favorite for that. 

[Angela Mora]

17 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

Do you need a multiplication game? I have a favorite for that. 

I bought one but haven't used it much. He's been pretty resistant to multiplication in general, so I'm considering reintroducing it at a later time. However, if you have a suggestion for a game, I would still appreciate it!

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Angela Mora said:

I bought one but haven't used it much. He's been pretty resistant to multiplication in general, so I'm considering reintroducing it at a later time. However, if you have a suggestion for a game, I would still appreciate it!

The one I like best isn't even obviously multiplication! Here it is: 

https://mathforlove.com/lesson/blockout/

You don't have to write down the values as products or anything. You just have to count the squares in the rectangle. It's adding or counting, not multiplying 😉. 

The kids in my classes like the version that Beast Academy has better, where you have to make a "blob" -- the rectangles of the same color (played by the same player!) have to be contiguous. 

[Nm.]

I use a timer.  Start small, add minutes as you go along.  Probably best to keep it capped at 15 per session.  So work up to 15 minutes of math x 2.  Same for reading.  Cursive… try sandpaper letters or an app.

[Green Bean]

What materials are you using with him? That can have a huge impact. 8 is a tough age.

[PeterPan]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:22 PM, Angela Mora said:

Thanks for your response. I did consider putting him in a lower grade due to him being close to the cut-off. While I do consider him 3rd grade because I know he can do the work, the more recent struggles do suggest he might be better with lower expectations. It's just hard to find a balance because if I make it too easy he complains, but then things at his level are too hard. I do believe it's mostly anxiety related. He also struggles with the emotional maturity. I will try doing more games (I did buy a lot last year when he was struggling but haven't implemented them as much this year). I will look into changing my approach as well. I appreciate all your specific suggestions!

Think about all the ways we can alter "hard"...

-new concepts

-interesting or creative applications of previous concepts

-sophisticated exploratory learning using a simple or familiar tool

-subject that is inherently hard due to lack of familiarity or being a weak point for them (some kind of art, whatever)

-quantity of work

-speed of work

-independence level of the work

-emotional or environmental demand of the work

-output involved in the work

It's easy as a new homeschooler to think you need to do a "good job" and that a "good job" means constantly covering new material. However it could mean things listed above! It could mean he does a simple thing but using his tools to do it with self regulation. It could means learning to do it with a list. etc. etc. 

Fwiw, rebadging his grade level is NOT merely about academics. You can call him 2nd grade and teach him CALCULUS if you want! People used to ask my ds his grade, and finally I said to spit on them and tell them he was in college. 🤣 I'm like dude, he can't write, spells 3-4 grades behind, reads above but without comprehension, and listens to college lectures for goodness knows why. Grades are SO MEANINGLESS.

The most useful thing a grade adjustment would do for him right now is to drop the DEVELOPMENTAL EXPECTATIONS. You can still teach him at any level you want, but the developmental expectations are what are not fitting. You need a way to say he's a 2nd grader, this is what 2nd graders do developmentally, and know when you're doing "enough" kwim? He might be smart like a 5th grader but he's still in a BODY that has its developmental readiness.

If you didn't have time to play games, that's sad. He's at such a delightful age! Play games. Make time every single day and sit down for 30 minutes and play games. Read aloud. Look at picture books. Talk about the people and what they're feeling and how you know what they're feeling.

What are you planning to do for that anxiety? Meds? Interventions? He sounds like someone about ready for a good psych eval, honestly. When they eval'd my dd, they had this score the neuropsych made for stick to itiveness. I had no clue they could QUANTIFY what bugged me! 🤣 You're seeing a lot of things that psychs actually put numbers to and words to. Sometimes getting those words can lead you to the right interventions. Sometimes it's meds, but there are other things. You can look into things like Zones of Regulation, Interoception, the 5 Point Scale, getting an OT eval, checking for retained reflexes, etc. We have a lot of really great tools right now, and it's a matter of finding his jumping in point and what will be the piece that helps him take the next step in self awareness and self regulation. If there are retained reflexes, those need OT to integrate. But beyond that, lots of good interventions and things that can be done.

You're going to find that for some kids that academics are less important and the personal development is the more important piece of what you're doing. That's why I'm saying to play games. Kids develop relative to themselves, which means he'll continue to grow and mature yes, but he'll still be dealing with these challenges. They will respond to good tools.

[goldenecho]

Don't know if I have an answer, but man I can say I can relate. 

My son, who I later learned had dyslexia and ADHD, had this issue.  Incorporating imaginative play (his main motivator), helped with essential things.   But it wasn't just obvious things like reading... everything from sports to music to art projects got rejected as soon as they got hard (or not even tried because they MIGHT be hard). 

Good news is, it changed around age 10.  I don't know if it was just his executive function catching up to where most kids are when they start school (executive function issues aren't "cured" but executive function does increase with age just as it does with other kids, even if it will always lag behind). 

He started both being interested in stuff and being willing to try them.  Lots of things were short lived but at least he was starting.   And with some interests he stuck with it for a long time.  Once he got to middle school, he did a 180 on his effort for nearly everything.  He still wanted to quit some optional things early, but he became very self motivated on others. 

So, my advice is push on what's necessary...but don't push too hard on the rest.  

For reading, specifically, which I knew was more of an issue than just "lack of will" even before we got our diagnosis, it was a very tentative balancing act on how far to push.   Reading lessons were essential and I wasn't going to allow him to get out of them.  Pace was where he needed it to me (and I would stop when he was tired...I learned that pushing past a certain point was lots of pain for not much gain.   But we always had to start. 

I encouraged reading outside of lessons.   Some of it was thanks to video games.   He got Zelda, and it's all reading.   I would stay and help him (but not read it for him except for stuff that was just flashed up on screen to fast for him to read it), and I would let him play as long as he was willing to read the prompts.   When he finally attempted reading books (His first was a graphic novel his brother gave him...thank you big brother!   He totally asked me to get the graphic novel from his favorite series, and as soon as he got it, took it down the hall and gave it to his little brother and said "This is for you."  I still get choked up thinking about that, cause it made him want to read it).  We took parts at first, and I only asked him to take one part (I probably would have let him let me read all of it if he had resisted that, but he agreed and picked the main character).  He soon was asking to read more characters parts.  But he would backtrack too and ask to go back to just one or have me read all of it to him and I'd let him.  That's the kind of dance we did with this...and it's necessary, cause I wanted him to know if he tried something he wouldn't be stuck always doing it. I wanted him not to feel forced...to want to do this.

 

[goldenecho]

On 8/30/2023 at 6:03 PM, Rosie_0801 said:

I found with mine when she was young that she couldn't push forward in both English and maths at the same time, so they took turns being in maintenance mode.

The other thing I tell kids is that it is impossible to be brilliant at everything, but if you are good at practicing stuff, you get a long way even if it takes ages. Some kids respond well to trying = bravery.

When I've dealt with a perfectionist type, I've been blunter about it. I've flat out told them they aren't very good at trying and they were so horrified they were immediately very good at trying. This obviously won't work on someone who would rather sook.

I agree. I was careful to never teach multiple hard concepts on the same day.  If I was teaching something new in reading, I was reviewing in math, and vice versus.   History wasn't an issue with teaching new things, since it was just progressing to the next level of the story, but sometimes I had to space out difficult topics in science too. 

You may be thinking longer gaps than that...but it reminded me of this.

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by goldenecho

[Ellie]

On 9/2/2023 at 11:22 AM, Angela Mora said:

Thanks for your response. I did consider putting him in a lower grade due to him being close to the cut-off. While I do consider him 3rd grade because I know he can do the work, the more recent struggles do suggest he might be better with lower expectations. It's just hard to find a balance because if I make it too easy he complains, but then things at his level are too hard. I do believe it's mostly anxiety related. He also struggles with the emotional maturity. I will try doing more games (I did buy a lot last year when he was struggling but haven't implemented them as much this year). I will look into changing my approach as well. I appreciate all your specific suggestions!

There's no need to mess with his "grade level." Eventually he'll "catch up," and then you'll be trying to figure out how to "skip" a grade, and it will be mess.

You can have lower expectations for awhile without mucking about with "grade level."

Have you always homeschooled? Or are you trying to make up for what he didn't get in school?

What kinds of things are you doing with him?

Also, is he your first born? We first borns tend to be perfectionists, and one of the things that happens is that if we can't do it "right" 100%, we won't do it at all.

[mathmarm]

On 8/30/2023 at 8:35 PM, Angela Mora said:

My son just turned 8 and is struggling with any subject he finds too difficult.

I am trying to have him learn multiplication, but he says he will just fail at memorizing.

I've tried outsourcing the subject with themes he likes (Minecraft math, etc), but eventually he gives up.

 

He reads well, but refuses to try harder books because he doesn't want to struggle to sound it out.

 

He says he wants to learn cursive, but then he complains it's too difficult.

I would chop down the tasks down into more manageable chunks and scaffold.

Break the times tables down into sets and work on 1, 2 or 3 multiplication facts at a time. Go over the concept of Commutative and inverse operations for a couple of days then start memorizing the times tables. Work everyday, don't begin drilling ALL of the 7s.

Skip count by 7 at the start, middle and end of each session but start memorizing with maybe 7*10, 7*5 and 7*1, (and 10*7, 5*7 and 1*7) then work on the related divisions. When he's got one or two of those mastered, add in ONE or TWO more. So maybe next he learns 7*6 and 7*9.

But he continues to drill the math facts he's covered (7*1, 7*5, 7*6, 7*9 and 7*10) every day via different exercises. Teach him to multiply 7x2-digit and 7*3-digit numbers composed of what facts knows. So 7*15, 7*51, 510*7, etc. This will prevent utter boredom and also help him see contexts that utilize the multiplication tables.

 

Gradually build up to memorizing the full 7s times tables by the time he's done, he won't need to memorize

2*7, 3*7, 4*7, 5*7,...10*7.

Then he can move on to drill the 7s daily but start memorizing a new table such as *8 or *9.

For reading: He needs to develop fluency on the advanced end of the Phonics spectrum. Use the Ultimate Phonics FREE word lists.

He needs to read more at the low-mid spectrum of his reading range. For example: If he can read at a 3.4 level, then have him build fluency at the 1.5 to 2.1 reading level for example. When he reads The Cat in the Hat and Henry and Mudge, his reading should flow. Also, go through picture books or chapters of his current chapter bookcurate a list of words to explicitly pre teach via phonics (and possibly spelling) any multisyllabic words he might need to know to read that book.

 

 

For cursive, start doing daily prewriting--curves, loops and swirls, practicing various strokes that he needs to use for cursive. You might do cursive strokes, and evaluate cursive samples for a month before he's ready to actually try.