Advice about my little sister

[Not_a_Number]

Hey all, 

I could use some wise hive advice. 

As a lot of you know, DH and I have had a turbulent few years, some of which we've spent living apart so we could deal with his issues. Fingers crossed things are better now -- we're living together and things feel WAY better. We still have heaps of unresolved issues from all the years he spent stonewalling, but it feels like the lines of communication are going to stay open. (Knock on wood.) 

So this question isn't about DH. It's about my 21-year-old (half-)sister. I've always told her to consider our family her family -- her own parents are pretty worthless. When DH and I were living apart the first time, I told her we were having problems. (Sometimes I wish I hadn't. I didn't feel able to hide it back then, but maybe I should have. I am not sure.) She had no clue before and I think was profoundly shocked and discombobulated by the revelation. 

Well, here we are 1.5 years later. She's spent the whole time being REALLY uncomfortable with everything but pretending not to be. She's uncomfortable with the changes we've made to our communication style. She's obviously angry that we had issues but won't say it. Every time we spend time with her in person, she acts incredibly sulky and like it's a chore to be with us. (We've only hung out with her on two separate occasions in the past 1.5 years.) She won't say that anything is wrong -- she keeps maintaining that she's fine, just fine, and we're the ones with the problem because we point out that she seems unhappy and to be having a hard time. 

I felt pretty hurt about how she was acting for quite a while, not least because things were hard enough with DH that I just didn't have the bandwidth to have other relationships crash and burn. I've taken some time to process, though, and I don't feel that anymore -- I just feel sad that I don't know how to help here. I'm sad she feels betrayed by how things went with my DH (even though obviously I wasn't doing this TO her) and I'm sad she won't talk to us and make it possible for us to troubleshoot together. 

I'm giving her lots of space. I know that's part of what she needs. She also needs to feel no pressure from me, which is a tall order, because the way she's brought up means that lots of things that are simply boundaries or statements of needs feel like pressure to her. 

Has anyone been in her shoes? Does anyone know what she needs from me, space aside? 

Edited July 17, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Rosie_0801]

I think you are right to give her space. She doesn't want what you can give.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

I think you are right to give her space. She doesn't want what you can give.

For sure. I'm not going to message her. 

I expect she'll reach out eventually and I want to think about how to deal with that. I do best with situations I'm prepared for. 

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

I expect she'll reach out eventually and I want to think about how to deal with that. I do best with situations I'm prepared for. 

Don't we all? 

Do you have any idea how long it will take her to reach out? I have a person who can take years to get comfy enough to resume small talk. If she's anything like my person, there's no planning ahead because ahead is too far away to guess at what strategies will be needed.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Don't we all? 

Do you have any idea how long it will take her to reach out? I have a person who can take years to get comfy enough to resume small talk. If she's anything like my person, there's no planning ahead because ahead is too far away to guess at what strategies will be needed.

Oh, I'm sure it'll be in a month or two at the most. She's still talking to my DH, for one thing. And for another, she's annoyed at me for telling her she seems unhappy and will want to yell at me. 

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Oh, I'm sure it'll be in a month or two at the most. She's still talking to my DH, for one thing. And for another, she's annoyed at me for telling her she seems unhappy and will want to yell at me. 

It sounds like handing the phone to your husband might be the best plan.

 

[KSera]

15 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She's obviously angry that we had issues but won't say it. Every time we spend time with her in person, she acts incredibly sulky and like it's a chore to be with us. (We've only hung out with her on two separate occasions in the past 1.5 years.) She won't say that anything is wrong -- she keeps maintaining that she's fine, just fine, and we're the ones with the problem because we point out that she seems unhappy and to be having a hard time. 

Are you sure that the way she is behaving around you has anything to do with you? A lot of young adults can go through some very difficult, moody periods and don't want to talk to anyone about it. Each of mine my older ones has had times like this, and very rarely has it turned out to be because of anything about us, though there were times it felt very personal to me. But once they did open up, I had been over personalizing it and it wasn't directed at me at all. For the last part of your sentence, I wouldn't continue to "point out that she seems unhappy." My own mom likes to ask all the time if we're happy, if we're sure we're happy, we don't look happy, etc, etc, and I really dislike that. It's one thing with a little kid, but with a 21 year old, I'd make sure she knows you're open for discussion, but otherwise just love on her and don't hound her.

[Not_a_Number]

Honestly, the dynamics feel familiar to me. That's what my DH was like as well -- he'd get mad that I was calling him out for things he did and then we'd never talk about the original issue or why he was doing the things he was doing, because everything was FINE, thank_you_very_much. 

I think it's an issue with trust and attachment style and being brought up by people who don't prioritize a kid's emotional (or even other!) needs and feeling like it's not OK to have negative feelings. 

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, KSera said:

Are you sure that the way she is behaving around you has anything to do with you? 

Yes. I'm absolutely sure. 

[catz]

I have 2 young adult kids and sometimes they just be this way.  I think space and time are good.  Looking for postive connections and interactions when you can have them is good.  I think it's easy to be hurt by this type of behavior.  But I also think young adults are processing a lot of things and aren't always aware they are being OTT.  Try not to take it personally.  

I think it isn't unsual for family relationships get shook up and reset with young adults.  Even without your own turmoil mixed in there which undoubetdly makes it feel harder.  If you both had emotionally unhealthy upbringing, it may be possible that the changes feel off to her and she doesn't know why.

I'd just occassionally reach out and tell her you'd love to catch up when she's ready.  But at the same time, your marriage is your marriage and not really her business so I'd also be enforcing emotionally healthy boundaries with that.  I really think you could get this from a young person at this age even without your own background.  I'd catch up on her terms with open ended questions when she was open to talking.  What classes are you taking next semester?  Try any new restaurants?  How's your friend Bob?  What's your weather like?  I wouldn't be applying any labels like "you're unhappy".   If she were obviously rude or snippy, I'd wrap it in a "Wow, you seem upset.   Do you want to talk about it or maybe later?"   I'd not give her opinions unless asked for them.  

The fact that she is speaking to your spouse and not you is interesting.   In some ways almost reads like younger teen behavior.  But I do think some of this kind of stuff was delayed due to covid.  I was talking to a college prof not long ago who was saying her students were just much less emotionally mature in general.

[Rosie_0801]

Please excuse my bluntness, but it sounds like it is a whole lot more about her immaturity than about you. There's nothing you can really do to hurry her up on that score. I think you're just the safest place for her to behave as her not-best-self.

[catz]

2 minutes ago, KSera said:

Are you sure that the way she is behaving around you has anything to do with you? A lot of young adults can go through some very difficult, moody periods and don't want to talk to anyone about it. Each of mine my older ones has had times like this, and very rarely has it turned out to be because of anything about us, though there were times it felt very personal to me.

Agree.  And by the same token, I think they can look for reasons to be difficult.  So looking at them funny might be reason enough to be irritated and give them an excuse to pull away for a time.  

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, catz said:

In some ways almost reads like younger teen behavior.

She's definitely emotionally immature. 

 

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

Please excuse my bluntness, but it sounds like it is a whole lot more about her immaturity than about you. There's nothing you can really do to hurry her up on that score. I think you're just the safest place for her to behave as her not-best-self.

I think you hit the nail on the head. So maybe the question is really what does someone who's testing boundaries need from one? 

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, catz said:

Agree.  And by the same token, I think they can look for reasons to be difficult.  So looking at them funny might be reason enough to be irritated and give them an excuse to pull away for a time.  

You'll have to trust me that this is about me.

[catz]

Yes - bingo Rosie.  I think the closest mom figure often just gets the brunt of teen/young adult drama.  Especially with young women.

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

So maybe the question is really what does someone who's testing boundaries need from one? 

I'm not sure that's the right question either. You can't fix this because you are not the problem. She doesn't want to fix this because she doesn't think she is the problem. You just have to wait it out. Anything you try to do will reinforce the problem because (probably subconsciously) she wants it that way.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, catz said:

Yes - bingo Rosie.  I think the closest mom figure often just gets the brunt of teen/young adult drama.  Especially with young women.

I do see that. 

The heartbreaking thing is the lack of trust, though. 

My kids aren't old enough for these issues, obviously, but they have an essential faith that I want what's best for them. My sister simply has no concept that a parent could be looking out for her and not for themselves. 

 

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

I'm not sure that's the right question either. You can't fix this because you are not the problem. She doesn't want to fix this because she doesn't think she is the problem. You just have to wait it out. Anything you try to do will reinforce the problem because (probably subconsciously) she wants it that way.

That hasn't been my experience in other relationships. 

[freesia]

3 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

She's definitely emotionally immature. 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head. So maybe the question is really what does someone who's testing boundaries need from one? 

She needs you to be a non-anxious presence. Just be there calmly. Don’t try to get her to talk but be there if she wants to. She isn’t used to the adults in her life having drama and still being healthy with her, right? So you being calm she’s her that. She can act badly and you are still there loving her. 

[freesia]

2 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I do see that. 

The heartbreaking thing is the lack of trust, though. 

My kids aren't old enough for these issues, obviously, but they have an essential faith that I want what's best for them. My sister simply has no concept that a parent could be looking out for her and not for themselves. 

 

That hasn't been my experience in other relationships. 

Fortunately the lack of trust isn’t static. She’s asking non-verbally if you are worthy of her trust. You teach her by being the non -anxious presence I mentioned above. You are there for her no matter what in a no drama way. 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, freesia said:

Fortunately the lack of trust isn’t static. She’s asking non-verbally if you are worthy of her trust. You teach her by being the non -anxious presence I mentioned above. You are there for her no matter what in a no drama way. 

The thing I've seen in this dynamic is that you wind up doing things without knowing that betray someone's trust. Since they will not speak or indicate that you're betraying them, they will then nurse grievances you don't even know about. 

It's a really unhealthy feedback loop. 

[Rosie_0801]

8 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

The thing I've seen in this dynamic is that you wind up doing things without knowing that betray someone's trust. Since they will not speak or indicate that you're betraying them, they will then nurse grievances you don't even know about. 

It's a really unhealthy feedback loop. 

Yep, and that's a choice they are making even if it's subconsciously, which is not your responsibility however much they want it to be. You can't help it if their boundaries are in the wrong place. At this stage of their development, they possibly can't either though it'd be nice if someone they are willing to listen to would say so.
Your responsibility is to decide which hits you're willing to take, and which methods of delivering "no" will suit your goals best. 

With my person, if I want something, I get my daughter to ask because she is too young to trigger the "Mother is oppressing me" response, which is has a much quicker reaction time than the "I love this person and she loves me and I am perfectly happy to lend her my tools" response. In your case, it seems your husband is the best person to deal with your sister, if he is willing.

As irritating as it is to be unable to cure what seems like a simple enough problem, sometimes the timing isn't right or we're not the right person. Complicated problems require a team effort to solve.

[Not_a_Number]

6 minutes ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yep, and that's a choice they are making even if it's subconsciously, which is not your responsibility however much they want it to be. You can't help it if their boundaries are in the wrong place. At this stage of their development, they possibly can't either though it'd be nice if someone they are willing to listen to would say so.
Your responsibility is to decide which hits you're willing to take, and which methods of delivering "no" will suit your goals best. 

With my person, if I want something, I get my daughter to ask because she is too young to trigger the "Mother is oppressing me" response, which is has a much quicker reaction time than the "I love this person and she loves me and I am perfectly happy to lend her my tools" response. In your case, it seems your husband is the best person to deal with your sister, if he is willing.

As irritating as it is to be unable to cure what seems like a simple enough problem, sometimes the timing isn't right or we're not the right person. Complicated problems require a team effort to solve.

You’re absolutely right that she’ll listen to my DH better than to me right now. That’s a good thought.

As for the relationship between us, I believe there are wrong and right things to do to help nudge dynamics out of their grooves, even though I can’t fix it myself.

[Rosie_0801]

1 minute ago, Not_a_Number said:

As for the relationship between us, I believe there are wrong and right things to do to help nudge dynamics out of their grooves, even though I can’t fix it myself.

You have my sympathies.

I just blasted to pieces the trust I spent three and a half years rebuilding with my person, so I'm starting over again. You can imagine how thrilled I am.

[Not_a_Number]

Just now, Rosie_0801 said:

You have my sympathies.

I just blasted to pieces the trust I spent three and a half years rebuilding with my person, so I'm starting over again. You can imagine how thrilled I am.

I’m really sorry, Rosie. That sucks.

[Katy]

I'd just give it time and no more thoughts.  Definitely no more talking to her about it. She's acting like a petulant child because she is one, and her brain won't fully mature until the age of 25 or so.  If young people didn't get irritated with the people who are stable in their lives, they'd never be able to really start lives of their own.

[Lecka]

It sounds like she’s treating you like a mom figure, and currently she’s testing you to see if you are going to give up on her or not?

 

So she’s seeing if she can trust you or not?

 

Like — this is how I acted with my step-father?  

[Rosie_0801]

12 minutes ago, Not_a_Number said:

I’m really sorry, Rosie. That sucks.

Yup. Especially since the original breach was not my doing. But I can't do anything about that, so I've been doing as @freesia was saying up thread. I seem to have cured the anxious part of anxious-avoidant since I haven't abandoned them even though they think I should have. I don't know what to do about the avoidant part. Maybe I can't do anything about that.

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, Rosie_0801 said:

Yup. Especially since the original breach was not my doing. But I can't do anything about that, so I've been doing as @freesia was saying up thread. I seem to have cured the anxious part of anxious-avoidant since I haven't abandoned them even though they think I should have. I don't know what to do about the avoidant part. Maybe I can't do anything about that.

Interesting.

So they don’t chase you but they still run away?

[freesia]

6 minutes ago, Katy said:

I'd just give it time and no more thoughts.  Definitely no more talking to her about it. She's acting like a petulant child because she is one, and her brain won't fully mature until the age of 25 or so.  If young people didn't get irritated with the people who are stable in their lives, they'd never be able to really start lives of their own.

I agree. @Not_a_Number I may be wrong, but while I get why you keep seeing this through the lease you have regarding your dh, I’m not sure it applies on the same way. Your dh is older and you’ve had a peer relationship with him. I think the dynamics are different so they need a different approach. One thing I learned parenting my teens was that a method or philosophy of relationship that worked great with one could spectacularly backfire with another.

Edited July 18, 2023 by freesia

[Lecka]

Or she’s mad that she has no control of an important relationship in her life, and blames you — like how kids feel when their parents get a divorce.

 

This all seems really like a “child of divorce” thing to me.  
 

Kids can feel like they need to establish a relationship with one side or the other, sometimes they feel hurt with the more reliable parent, or they feel sorry for the more needy parent (who maybe is not as sympathetic to another adult).  
 

Expecting her to be more mature and have a more “you’re 21 you’re an adult” relationship does not seem like it’s where she is at right now.  
 

How much you want to put up with and take on is something to think about, if you want to have some boundaries while also wanting to maintain a relationship or having an older sister/younger sister relationship.  
 

I don’t think there should be a requirement that you get yelled at.  

[Not_a_Number]

1 minute ago, freesia said:

I agree. @Not_a_Number I may be wrong, but whole I get why you keep seeing this through the lease you have regarding your dh, I’m not sure it applies on the same way. Your dh is older and you’ve had a peer relationship with him. I think the dynamics are different so they need a different approach. One thing I learned parenting my teens was that a method or philosophy of relationship that worked great with one could spectacularly backfire with another.

I definitely need a different approach. I don’t know how to explain this, though… some ideas are abstract and essential and generalize to many different situations. 

It’s like in math… fraction addition and the standard algorithm for base 10 are very different, superficially, but they’re still addition. 

So I’m seeing threads in common here and am musing about how to apply the same ideas. 

It helps me to think through what she wants from me. Some things she wants from me I can’t give, of course. I have to think about what to do about that, too.

[Lecka]

I think she sounds like she’s normal, too.  
 

Were you really over-functioning as a young person?  Did you have no safe person to be petulant towards?  (Hypothetical questions.)

 

Well, she has you!  
 

I think parents can also have some response to yelling like “I will talk about it when we are less upset” or something — just off the top of my head.  
 

[Not_a_Number]

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

This all seems really like a “child of divorce” thing to me.

Absolutely.

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Expecting her to be more mature and have a more “you’re 21 you’re an adult” relationship does not seem like it’s where she is at right now.  

You’re right.

 

2 minutes ago, Lecka said:

I don’t think there should be a requirement that you get yelled at.  

I don’t mind productive yelling at all.

[Lecka]

Yes some things she wants from you and you can’t give — that is common for teens and young adults, because they don’t know what is reasonable to ask for from another person.  
 

[Lecka]

Just putting this out here — if you are the person in your sister’s life who might teach her that she can disagree or have conflict without “productive yelling” maybe consider it.

 

I am definitely saying this as if you are in a “parent/teacher/mentor” role that may not be what is right for you (for yourself) to take on.
 

She’s not your child that you chose to have and she is 21, some things aren’t fair to you.  But still I’m sure you want to help her as much as you can.  

[Rosie_0801]

Just now, Not_a_Number said:

Interesting.

So they don’t chase you but they still run away?

Person might not want to talk to me, but they haven't deleted my number either. They want the security of knowing I'm still around, but are usually too fragile to cope with me (or pretty much everyone, really. It's not just me.) They live with their dad, so I visit him. The dad and I have a good old chat, which allows me to keep tabs on my person without direct contact, but the bugger can see loyalty and reliability. 

It's a crying shame, because they are adorable when they're not working so hard at being messed up. It boggles my mind that the sweetest person I ever met has such a poor self image.
 

I am shitty that I had to break the trust I'd built, but he had crossed an unacceptable line in his primary relationship and I was the only person who was properly positioned to say so. It was appropriate for me to take that hit.

[Not_a_Number]

3 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Just putting this out here — if you are the person in your sister’s life who might teach her that she can disagree or have conflict without “productive yelling” maybe consider it.

 

I am definitely saying this as if you are in a “parent/teacher/mentor” role that may not be what is right for you (for yourself) to take on.
 

She’s not your child that you chose to have and she is 21, some things aren’t fair to you.  But still I’m sure you want to help her as much as you can.  

It isn’t my experience that it’s a good idea to stifle most kinds of expression when someone feels silenced already.

[Melissa Louise]

Give space

Be calm and non-anxious

Reach out - quick, light messages when you feel moved, that need no response

Let her come closer when she's ready

Assume you know less than you think you do about the why of it all

Deal with own feelings about it with self or other

 

 

[Melissa Louise]

And prob think about your own boundaries. You don't like it when she is saying one thing but communicating another. What's your boundary ( what you do) around that?

[Lecka]

Maybe we have different ideas of the word “yelling.”
 

I am okay with “heated” and “showing emotion” as I would call them, and I have seen these called “yelling.”