Algebra 1 - Thinkwell vs Derek Owens vs Mr. D vs Denison Math

[ktgrok]

Or others. This is for 13 yr old rising 8th grader.  She does NOT want live classes (anxiety), but likes videos. I want something that has notes/text/something so I can go back and help her if need be. She's very smart, average or above average in math, but zero confidence due to anxiety (in general not just math anxiety). We did Math U See for much of this year, but because of her lack of confidence rather than only use the "extra" worksheets when she needs them, she did every single one, plus took a day to study for the test, and each lesson was taking about 1.5 weeks. Then add in days we missed due to field trips and events and such and she just got very behind. We are now working through CTC 7th grade, just going through the diagnostic tests and seeing what she knows and doesn't know. So far, have not had to do more than remind her of how to do something - then she remembers and does great. ZERO problems wrong once she knows what she is doing. Same with Math U See, she got maybe one quiz question wrong every 10 quizzes. So she doesn't need a ton of practice or over teaching, but does need clear explanations without skipping important steps. 

She has dyslexia, so something wordy like saxon is likely not the best fit, plus honestly she is so methodical that it would take FOREVER to do those long lessons. I'd like something with shorter to the point lessons, since she really does pick things up quickly. 

Having me beside her helps, so I will be doing that going forward most of the time. (several times I thought she was working diligently on a problem only to realize she was drawing cats...and needed me to redirect her to the problem.)

Price is not an object at this point. 

[KeriJ]

I haven't researched the others as much, but I am just about to purchase Denison for my 3rd and 4th dc after using MUS. It seems to address everything I was hoping it would! 

[Malam]

Derek Owens' lectures can go slow an be repetitive, which some have mentioned as an annoyance but could be good for your DD's confidence. DO also assigns 10-20 problems per assignment which might be what your DD needs to build confidence, or they might bog her down. Only you can tell.

I think Thinkwell would be a better fit, as the video lessons are shorter and to the point, and there aren't as many assigned problems as DO. Given your DD's perfectionist streak, you might not have to worry as much about her breezing through the HW/quizzes with a low score and moving on without understanding her mistakes.

[KSera]

2 hours ago, Malam said:

Derek Owens' lectures can go slow an be repetitive

Some of my kids like to listen to them with the speed set faster. Like 1.25 or 1.5 speed. 

[lmrich]

Some kids with dyslexia  and ADD have a hard time writing the notes for DO's class. Or worse they write the wrong thing. My son tutors a lot of DO's classes in the Atlanta area and is stunned by how many kids have  notebooks (which is really  is their textbook) that  is not usable because the kids have not taken notes or have written  down the wrong information. 

[ktgrok]

We are trying out Thinkwell's 30 Days to Algebra 1 readiness to make sure she is prepped for Algebra 1, but also to try out the format. 

But...aftere reading a bunch of threads here I'm now considering Jacobs Algebra 1 for her next year. I just read a bit of the version that Masterbooks put out and I really found it understandable, and I LOVE that as someone here said, "it doesn't let the numbers get in the way of the concept". I HATE when curricula use stupid numbers for math teaching. (looking at you, CTC math!)

My goal is for her to understand the process, not kill any interest she has in math by making it a slog. 

[Farrar]

If you feel confident in teaching it, that's absolutely what Jacobs Algebra does. It's a beautiful curriculum.

[ktgrok]

15 hours ago, Farrar said:

If you feel confident in teaching it, that's absolutely what Jacobs Algebra does. It's a beautiful curriculum.

I think I do, in the sense that I could work through it with her. I have forgotten a lot, but it comes back to me if I have a good example to look at. Which is why I HATED the public school Algebra class my son did, the semester he was in school. OMG - NO textbook, so sample problems or examples, no solution guide, NOTHING. Just a freaking workbook! 

We just finished the first pretest (out of three) in the thinkwell 30 days to algebra 1 readiness, and there were a few times she asked me how to do something and I had to stop and think for a minute, but once I did I was fine. once I had to look something up, but only because the way they wrote the problem was confusing to me. 

I'm going to sit down with her after we finish working through this and have her give some input. 

[EKS]

On 7/9/2023 at 12:44 PM, lmrich said:

Some kids with dyslexia  and ADD have a hard time writing the notes for DO's class.

This.  My dyslexic kid took sparse notes, but they were usable.  He was older by the time we got to DO with him though, which helped immensely.  He wouldn't have been able to do it prior to age 16.  Also, I threatened him by telling him that I would lower his grade if he didn't take adequate notes.

The younger one has ADHD (which I didn't know at the time), and was completely unable to take notes and got cranky with watching lecture after lecture.  So I watched the lectures first, took notes, and presented the material to him interactively.  Occasionally I had him watch a lecture if it was an interesting overview (rather than an example).  Then I had him do the example problems with me writing on a whiteboard.  This allowed his mind to be engaged.  Frankly, I think that this is a far better way to approach math instruction, with the kid doing most of the work and the instructor giving only as much guidance as needed.  Anyway, then he did the practice problems independently.

My high school math education is essentially all from DO.  It has prepared me VERY well for my degree program (see signature).  I should note, however, that this is at a third string university (regional state school), and so I can't speak to how adequate it is a preparation for math courses at first rate universities.

[EKS]

Oh and I also wanted to say that Ed Burger's lectures are really good.  I am less enamored with the Thinkwell problem sets though.  I believe that the old Holt texts go with the Thinkwell lectures, so that could be a better source of problems.

[daijobu]

18 hours ago, ktgrok said:

But...aftere reading a bunch of threads here I'm now considering Jacobs Algebra 1 for her next year. I just read a bit of the version that Masterbooks put out and I really found it understandable, and I LOVE that as someone here said, "it doesn't let the numbers get in the way of the concept". I HATE when curricula use stupid numbers for math teaching. (looking at you, CTC math!)

 

I'm not familiar with CTC.  Could you provide an example of what you describe in the bold?  

[EKS]

20 hours ago, daijobu said:

I'm not familiar with CTC.  Could you provide an example of what you describe in the bold?  

I believe that I was the one who said the thing about Jacobs not letting the numbers get in the way of the teaching.  Since the Jacobs text was written in the 1970s when they couldn't expect students to have pocket calculators, all of the problems involve computation that can be easily done (mostly) in your head.  The modern texts apparently assume that students are going to use their calculators for everything, so they make no effort to use good numbers.

When a problem uses "good" numbers, a student can do all computations in their head without spending too much mental effort on them.  That said, the numbers shouldn't "disappear" or cause terms to "disappear" in a way that makes the concept being studied also disappear.  So, zeros and ones are used carefully, and other aspects of the problem are considered carefully as well (as in, it is apparent that someone has actually done the problem with an eye toward these sorts of issues).

When a problem uses "bad" numbers, it distracts students from learning the concept.  This generally means that the problem requires some crazy side computation that consists of a bunch of tricky and tedious arithmetic that has nothing to do with the task at hand.  Even if the student uses a calculator (and calculators these days can deal with fraction arithmetic, which is a big offender, without resorting to decimal conversions), it disrupts their train of thought.  Another thing that happens is that when these sorts of computations result in weird fractions, it makes it really hard to see the relationships between numbers or terms or whatever.

Here's an example (that I'm making up; all of my recent experience with this issue has been in college math classes):

Solve by completing the square.

x^2 +  6x - 3 = 13

versus

x^2 + 37x - 17 = 2

Now, before someone tells me that students should be able to deal with the second problem, I agree, they should.  But it needs to be scaffolded properly.  Frequently, problems like the second one will come at the beginning of a problem set.  All that does is make students even more calculator dependent than they are while obfuscating the concepts at the same time.

[ktgrok]

And the winner is.....none of the above, lol. 

I am nearly positive I'm going to go with CLE Algebra 1. I think CLE is easy to understand, easy for me to teach, easy to go back and look up a concept since they list next to review problems where it was first taught, etc. I didn't want to use it since I thought that was the only level they have for highschool, but they just came out with a Sunrise edition of Algebra II. So even if I have to switch for Geometry, if she likes it we can use it for Algebra II as well. I did email to ask if they are going to do a Sunrise version of Geometry...we shall see. 

Oh, and I also ordered Hands On Equations to play around with with the kids. 

Edited July 12, 2023 by ktgrok

[Not_a_Number]

On 7/10/2023 at 6:54 PM, ktgrok said:

But...aftere reading a bunch of threads here I'm now considering Jacobs Algebra 1 for her next year. I just read a bit of the version that Masterbooks put out and I really found it understandable, and I LOVE that as someone here said, "it doesn't let the numbers get in the way of the concept". I HATE when curricula use stupid numbers for math teaching. (looking at you, CTC math!)

What does not letting the numbers get in the way mean?? (I hope that’s not too off topic. I’m just curious!)

ETA: whoops, saw that EKS explained!

Edited July 13, 2023 by Not_a_Number

[Ad astra]

Thinkwell math courses from Pre-algebra to Algebra 2 are complete programs if you do everything including printable worksheets. The exercise problems on the worksheets are identical to the ones in Holt McDougal textbooks (by Burger), which offer enough practice for most students. Both of my kids (one gifted and the other autistic) preferred Thinkwell's layout and instructor's style to DO's.  

My older kid is currently taking Thinkwell Pre-calculus and we are bummed there are no longer any worksheets included. We added a Larson textbook to it in order to supplement it.