Second year of Algebra 2

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

DD2 struggles with math. We started in Singapore but switched to CLE in 5th grade. Singapore was just too intense for her and DD3 was catching up to her, causing problems. CLE was perfect. I had no idea that math concepts could be broken down into such small pieces but it really worked for her. I had heard mixed reviews of CLE secondary math curriculum so in 8th grade I switched to MUS. It was fine, mostly, until this year. The first half of the year was ok, not great, but ok. But the last few months have been rough. She misses almost every problem. She’s often forgetting basic things like how to multiply fractions. She was solid on the basics before, but it seems that the more complicated the problems get, the more confused she gets about the simple things. 
 

My original plan for her senior year was to move on to MUS Pre-calculus but that doesn’t seem like a good idea now. I think we need to back up. But I’m not sure to where. Just repeat Algebra 2 again with a different curriculum? Back up further than that? Does anyone know how CLE’s high school math courses are? I’m going to the HEAV convention in VA in a couple weeks so if anyone has suggestions of things to look at I’d appreciate it. 

[8filltheheart]

It sounds like Saxon's incremental approach might be a good fit for her.  Maybe have her take their alg 2 placement exam and see if she places into it? saxon placement exams

[mathmarm]

I think you are wise to shore up Algebra rather than press on with such a high frustration rate and error rate.

When she worked through Algebra 1 -- did she do all of the problems?
When she worked through Algebra 2 -- did she do all of the problems?

As she used MUS Algebra, did she use the program fully and as prescribed, or did she modify the program so that she was doing only some of the work?

[EKS]

Lial's Intermediate Algebra may be a good choice.  It is a great big review of Algebra 1 that is extended a bit.  I'd present the material to her and then assign two similar batches of problems, one that you sit with her while she does and the other, which is substantially the same, that she does on her own with you sitting across the room.  Have her check her answers with you verbally as she goes.

[BusyMom5]

I would look at Saxon Algebra 2.  My girls were ready for College Algebra after taking it.  It has the same spiral as CLE.

My math struggler actually spent 1.5 years in this book.  We got to lesson 100- with setbacks and review.  The next year I started back at lesson 70 and we worked through it again.  That second time through really helped!  

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

On 5/16/2023 at 9:14 AM, mathmarm said:

I think you are wise to shore up Algebra rather than press on with such a high frustration rate and error rate.

When she worked through Algebra 1 -- did she do all of the problems?
When she worked through Algebra 2 -- did she do all of the problems?

As she used MUS Algebra, did she use the program fully and as prescribed, or did she modify the program so that she was doing only some of the work?

We’ve done every problem. She watched the videos and then worked through one problem at a time. I’d go over any wrong answers with her. I guess the only part that we didn’t do exactly as prescribed was the step where the student is supposed to teach the parent. I’d sit with her and go over things asking questions about what step came next and why, but I’ll admit to rushing this part or sometimes just explaining it to her so we could get through it faster. Math at this level takes a while and I’m doing it x3. Otherwise, we haven’t skipped a single problem. 
 

On 5/16/2023 at 9:13 AM, 8filltheheart said:

It sounds like Saxon's incremental approach might be a good fit for her.  Maybe have her take their alg 2 placement exam and see if she places into it? saxon placement exams

 

On 5/16/2023 at 9:47 AM, EKS said:

Lial's Intermediate Algebra may be a good choice.  It is a great big review of Algebra 1 that is extended a bit.  I'd present the material to her and then assign two similar batches of problems, one that you sit with her while she does and the other, which is substantially the same, that she does on her own with you sitting across the room.  Have her check her answers with you verbally as she goes.

I have Saxon and Lial‘s on my list to look at at the convention in a couple of weeks. I’ve heard that people skip some problems in Saxon because there’s so many, but that it was designed to do every problem. How long does a lesson take if the student does every problem? 

[8filltheheart]

Sorry, I can't answer.  We have never used Saxon.  

[Melanie32]

I love MUS for k-prealgebra and their geometry as well. However I find their algebra programs aren’t a great fit for non intuitive math learners. We like teaching textbooks for algebra 1 and 2. 

[Tanager]

Saxon was designed for school so it takes a normal class session and homework. My daughter benefits from Saxon, she does every problem and probably spends 2 hrs a day on it, but she does do extra work if she gets a problem wrong which is not recommended by John Saxon (she does seem to have ADD and mild dysgraphia so sometimes she’s daydreaming or taking longer to write neat.) For the tests the student should get 80% or need to redo the last five chapters. My daughter has almost never got 80% due to silly mistakes and forgetting, but she has never redone the chapters as she would’ve never made it anywhere, but we do go over every problem that’s wrong until I’m sure she’s good and at the end of the book she is solid. One year we did review one type of problem she was still struggling with.

She is very solid on her math and has been using Saxon since 5/4. She actually likes it despite the work. She does self teach, but did sometimes use video lessons if she was stuck and I was working. 

Also she does math flash cards about once a year for a few weeks as she says some math facts fade over time. Doing a review of forgotten steps might help, you could make flash cards that said “How do you multiply fractions” with the steps on the back. Then do a couple problems each day a week past when she gets it again.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Tanager

[EKS]

Whatever resource you decide to use, I think the most important thing is to teach her yourself and check each problem she does on her own as she does it.  You don't want there to be a lag between mistake and correction.

[Brittany1116]

We went from CLE 600s to Saxon Alg 1. We have spent 1.5 years on Alg 1 because he was 11 for most of it. It takes him 50-60 minutes to do a lesson now that he is in the last 8 or so lessons. It is very similar to CLE in spiral and we liked that about it. 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

2 hours ago, EKS said:

Whatever resource you decide to use, I think the most important thing is to teach her yourself and check each problem she does on her own as she does it.  You don't want there to be a lag between mistake and correction.

I probably do need to do this. She is very resistant to doing anything with me though. The thought of doing math everyday with a reluctant teenager….ugh….maybe I’ll feel different about it when it’s NOT the end of the school year. I do want her to be successful. 

[Kendall]

On 5/18/2023 at 7:17 PM, Tanager said:

 

Also she does math flash cards about once a year for a few weeks as she says some math facts fade over time. Doing a review of forgotten steps might help, you could make flash cards that said “How do you multiply fractions” with the steps on the back. Then do a couple problems each day a week past when she gets it again.

I was going to suggest something similar, though what I have done is put a representative problem on one side of an index card and the worked out solution on the other. Every day spend a set amount of time "doing cards" working the problems and checking the answer right away-which she can do largely on her own with some monitoring by you as needed. Any that she misses go back on top. 

I started over with Algebra 1 doing chapter tests and slowing down and reteaching as needed. Then do the same with Algebra 2. Make problem cards for any type of problem that she doesn't remember how to do. 

I also agree with EKS "Whatever resource you decide to use, I think the most important thing is to teach her yourself and check each problem she does on her own as she does it.  You don't want there to be a lag between mistake and correction"

First I would sell it to her as a joint adventure, you are both learning math and both learning how to help her remember it. I had an ongoing I don't like math, slight negative attitude in general while doing math (I was not enjoying this Lol!) So I told this 14 year old child that we learn to like things that we get better at, she needs more time to get better so that she would like it better and so we added a 10-15 minute math time to every evening and to every weekend day. It didn't take long of doing that before she liked math better Lol!!!  

Also try not to express frustration when she doesn't remember. (Maybe you don't have this temptation, but I do!). Just go in adjusting your mindset so that you expect her to forget everything that was learned even if it was that day. 

 

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

9 hours ago, Kendall said:

I was going to suggest something similar, though what I have done is put a representative problem on one side of an index card and the worked out solution on the other. Every day spend a set amount of time "doing cards" working the problems and checking the answer right away-which she can do largely on her own with some monitoring by you as needed. Any that she misses go back on top. 

I started over with Algebra 1 doing chapter tests and slowing down and reteaching as needed. Then do the same with Algebra 2. Make problem cards for any type of problem that she doesn't remember how to do. 

I also agree with EKS "Whatever resource you decide to use, I think the most important thing is to teach her yourself and check each problem she does on her own as she does it.  You don't want there to be a lag between mistake and correction"

First I would sell it to her as a joint adventure, you are both learning math and both learning how to help her remember it. I had an ongoing I don't like math, slight negative attitude in general while doing math (I was not enjoying this Lol!) So I told this 14 year old child that we learn to like things that we get better at, she needs more time to get better so that she would like it better and so we added a 10-15 minute math time to every evening and to every weekend day. It didn't take long of doing that before she liked math better Lol!!!  

Also try not to express frustration when she doesn't remember. (Maybe you don't have this temptation, but I do!). Just go in adjusting your mindset so that you expect her to forget everything that was learned even if it was that day. 

 

She’s been pretty resistant to my helping her. And it’s pretty difficult to force a grumpy 17yo to cooperate when they don’t want to. But the past few school days I’ve insisted that we do math together and she’s been a bit more cooperative. I’m not sure she’d agree to doing it this way regularly but maybe she’ll see the benefits. It certainly is faster. Rather than her doing a whole lesson, missing almost every single one, and then doing it again with me, we’re just skipping to the end of that process. I think it’s helping her understanding as well to not have a chance to do it wrong. We’re splitting it up into several 30-45 minute sessions a day which also seems to be helping. And I’m being as patient as I can and just expecting to need to explain things each time. 
 

Starting back at Algebra 1 and doing chapter tests might be a good idea. I can make sure any holes are plugged while also not spending time on things she already knows. Might build her confidence too. Thanks for the idea. 

[Kendall]

9 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

She’s been pretty resistant to my helping her. And it’s pretty difficult to force a grumpy 17yo to cooperate when they don’t want to. But the past few school days I’ve insisted that we do math together and she’s been a bit more cooperative. I’m not sure she’d agree to doing it this way regularly but maybe she’ll see the benefits. It certainly is faster. Rather than her doing a whole lesson, missing almost every single one, and then doing it again with me, we’re just skipping to the end of that process. I think it’s helping her understanding as well to not have a chance to do it wrong. We’re splitting it up into several 30-45 minute sessions a day which also seems to be helping. And I’m being as patient as I can and just expecting to need to explain things each time. 
 

Starting back at Algebra 1 and doing chapter tests might be a good idea. I can make sure any holes are plugged while also not spending time on things she already knows. Might build her confidence too. Thanks for the idea. 

 That sounds encouraging. I get it about the grumpiness. The child I mentioned in my post turned around quicker and easier than some of my other children!

I've taken mine out to ice cream or out to lunch after a hard book(Paradise Lost Lol!) or AP test. Maybe you could have a joint reward of some kind when you've completed several review chapters or something. 

Hang in there!

[Not_a_Number]

On 5/18/2023 at 11:05 PM, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I probably do need to do this. She is very resistant to doing anything with me though. The thought of doing math everyday with a reluctant teenager….ugh….maybe I’ll feel different about it when it’s NOT the end of the school year. I do want her to be successful. 

Could you get her a tutor? I agree with EKS that human feedback is important.

[2ndGenHomeschooler]

18 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

Could you get her a tutor? I agree with EKS that human feedback is important.

I don’t know that a tutor is in our budget. I can work with her at this level but not too much higher. I do have a friend who tutored math in college she’s a bit of a drive from me but maybe we could use Zoom or something if I really need the backup. I’m going to try getting us in a routine where we work on math together first and see if that helps. 

[Not_a_Number]

4 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I don’t know that a tutor is in our budget. I can work with her at this level but not too much higher. I do have a friend who tutored math in college she’s a bit of a drive from me but maybe we could use Zoom or something if I really need the backup. I’m going to try getting us in a routine where we work on math together first and see if that helps. 

I think your friend on Zoom is a great idea. I do all my tutoring on Zoom right now and it works very well! And your daughter may have an easier time with another adult.

[maize]

4 hours ago, 2ndGenHomeschooler said:

I don’t know that a tutor is in our budget. I can work with her at this level but not too much higher. I do have a friend who tutored math in college she’s a bit of a drive from me but maybe we could use Zoom or something if I really need the backup. I’m going to try getting us in a routine where we work on math together first and see if that helps. 

You might check into online math tutors on preply.com (ignore the fact that it advertises as a language tutoring platform, tutors can offer any subject). My son has been working with a tutor from Pakistan for a couple of years, he charges $8 per hour and teaches my son for three hours a week. We can't afford tutoring at US rates, but $8 an hour is pretty decent pay in Pakistan.