Question for Parents of Serious Musicians

[wendyroo]

Around the upper elementary ages, how and how much were you organizing/scaffolding/enforcing music practice?

Spencer is 9, and is a very advanced pianist and a quickly advancing violinist. He has very clear dreams and aspirations of being a concert pianist and a composer, and puts in huge (if disorganized) amounts of effort. He LOVES performing and competing...far more than his teacher or I would encourage him to do.

He also has very severe ADHD and less severe anxiety which are only partially improved by medication. It is suspected that he might also have autism like his siblings.

Getting Spencer to play his instruments isn't an issue...in fact, getting him to do other things is the struggle. But left to his own devices, he can't or won't prioritize and practice the things that are assigned or urgent.

A cycle repeats:
- He begs to perform in a competition, and he chooses a piece
- He learns it in earnest for several weeks, and then wants to move on to new, new, new, always something new
- He is talented enough that he does improve week after week, but as time goes on he resists practicing that piece more and more
- The competition nears and I start really pushing him...he realizes that he has lost ground and isn't prepared any more
- Tears, regrets, overwhelm...I step in and heavily scaffold practicing to get him prepared
- He triumphs and wins

He is young, and non-neurotypical, so I'm not opposed to helping structure his practice and preparation, BUT
1) I'm not sure how to do so with the amount of mental energy I can spare...like, logistically how to plan his practice day to day and how to record and convey that to him via notebook or sticky note or ??, and
2) I don't want to be a tiger mom pushing him and being more invested than he is. I want to offer accommodations to help him succeed in his goals, but I don't want to be the practice police and harp on him to the point he loses the joy of playing.

Any experience would be appreciated.
Thanks!

[freesia]

I think in your place I would decide with his teacher on maybe doing one or two competitions. I think what you are seeing is as much about his age and immaturity as anything else. I have NT kids and I know that cycle with at least one of mine. The best thing for me to do is stay out of the cycle. So, let him do one or two and if you see him maturing out if the cycle, let him do more. I wouldn’t explain it all—I would just say that teacher and I feel that x amount is an appropriate number for nine year olds. 

[8filltheheart]

Well, I'm not sure how serious you'd consider my 13 yod (violinist) bc when she was 9, she would consider 10-15 mins serious practice.  (Actually, that was true at 10, 11, and probably most of 12, too.)  She didn't really start practicing more until she was almost 13.  Bc she masters things easily (and advanced quite quickly), she was able to get away with it.   Even now, she gets bored of songs very quickly and wants to move on and not look at old songs again. 

But, I also have nothing to do with motivating her to play violin.  IOW, it is completely on her to be self-motivated to play.  She asked to learn and the onus is on her to do that.  At 13 the mental shift has been dramatic.  She is really blossoming into herself and her accomplishments.  She practices in a way she has never practiced before. (but equally, her practices sound like they are less than what your ds might already be doing!)

IOW.....even with a completely neurotypical kid, what you describe seems normal.  I agree with @freesia that I would limit the competitions.  Are there other ways to find motivation?  Local youth orchestra?  (dd loves playing in orchestra)  Dd also started playing violin for the choir at church and that is another huge motivator for her.

 

[lewelma]

My older boy is a serious musician (national level here in NZ), but at age 9 he was still doing the suzuki style and did all his playing with his father who was also learning. At about the age of 12, we were told that he needed to begin the process of learning independently. We were told that he would slow down at first (like for 6 months) and then speed up as he learned to self regulate and self-teach. 

If he/you want to do competitions, then you need to have the focus be about making a plan and keeping/adjusting the plan. Continual evaluation and self-reflection is key.  How did it go yesterday?  What should you change?  Are you overpractising?  If it is getting boring, how can you fix that?  What schedule will allow you to meet your goals?  How can you handle set backs?  How will you deal with frustration?  Etc.  You need to be doing this type of conversation all the time. Like every day. My older started ABRSM exams at the age of 9, and this is the process we went through.  It took until about 16 for him to master it, and be able to prepare himself for one of these exams (they require a LOT of prep - as in 100+ hours).

So, basically, at the age of 9, you need to be heavily involved. But your role is not to convince him to practise, rather your goal is to teach him how to self-reflect, self-evaluate, set daily goals. Rince and repeat. This is an outstanding long-term goal and one that will serve him well in all areas of life.

[8filltheheart]

Ruth, did your ds pass the grade 8 exam at 16?  There is nothing like that here.  I have been looking at their levels, though, and ordered some theory books bc violin teachers here do not teach theory.  In guesstimating dd's playing level, I'd estimate grade 5.  Her theory level, otoh, is all over the place in looking through the books (I bought 2-5).  Some things she knows just from playing.  Other things are completely new (so probably grade 2.)  She is going to work through the lower level books this summer.  FWIW, I showed them to her violin teacher (who is Russian) and she said she thought dd didn't need to know most of what is in them.  But, we have a piano and she plays around on it, so I'm going to have her learn it anyway.  She also studies voice, so I think knowing it in case she really does decide to go down the music path in the future that it will be beneficial to have had the exposure.  Anyway, violin here is very different than ABRSM.

[Not_a_Number]

I don't think DD10 is anywhere near as serious a musician -- no ambitions to make it her life work -- but she has played by choice since kindergarten and is fairly advanced. 

We used to push her pretty hard. However, our goal over the last year and a half has been to work on her ability to self-regulate and motivate herself. As a result, we help her plan things out but try as hard as we can to lay off, including with her piano. 

Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in less academic and musical progress . . . but it has also resulted in a level of engagement and ownership that we're very, very proud of and that we have never seen before. 

For us, that's worth far more than how quickly she advances. She'll be able to use these skills all her life. 

[lewelma]

23 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

Ruth, did your ds pass the grade 8 exam at 16?  There is nothing like that here.  I have been looking at their levels, though, and ordered some theory books bc violin teachers here do not teach theory.  In guesstimating dd's playing level, I'd estimate grade 5.  Her theory level, otoh, is all over the place in looking through the books (I bought 2-5).  Some things she knows just from playing.  Other things are completely new (so probably grade 2.)  She is going to work through the lower level books this summer.  FWIW, I showed them to her violin teacher (who is Russian) and she said she thought dd didn't need to know most of what is in them.  But, we have a piano and she plays around on it, so I'm going to have her learn it anyway.  She also studies voice, so I think knowing it in case she really does decide to go down the music path in the future that it will be beneficial to have had the exposure.  Anyway, violin here is very different than ABRSM.

Yes, Grade 8 at 16, and Diploma at 17. And he is still taking weekly lessons 5 years later! My ds's highschool teacher thought that going through the exams rounded out a musician's skill set.  The 4 areas are: performance (with accompaniment), scales, sight reading, and oral skills. I think ds would agree that these were incredibly valuable skills to learn and was very glad that he learned them.  Scales with a violin force you to learn to hear the notes, sight reading allows you to learn new pieces faster, and oral skills teach you how to play with other musicians and appreciate music by ear.  

As for Theory, ds only did up to grade 5 theory which is the minimum required to move ahead with the higher level exams. Theory helped him to understand how music is put together. Sure he could just play it if he can read music, but to really understand why something sounds good requires some theory. 

Also ABRSM is not just designed for performers, it is also designed for people who want to compose music. For that, theory and oral skills are pretty important. 

Edited May 13, 2023 by lewelma

[Not_a_Number]

46 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Continual evaluation and self-reflection is key.  How did it go yesterday?  What should you change?  Are you overpractising?  If it is getting boring, how can you fix that?  What schedule will allow you to meet your goals?  How can you handle set backs?  How will you deal with frustration?  Etc.  You need to be doing this type of conversation all the time. Like every day.

I absolutely agree with having those conversations, although for us, having conversations anywhere NEAR every day wouldn't have worked. It would have spiked resistance and anxiety and decreased ownership. (We've tried this for other things we were working on and that's what happened.) 

For us, letting her try something for a few weeks or a month and then checking in has worked best. 

I'm sure it depends on the kid, though! 

[8filltheheart]

I'm laughing at your scales comment. Dd's violin teacher places scales, arpeggios, double stops, and etudes at a higher level of daily practice importance than her piece that she us working on. Dd, otoh, doesn't agree, but has learned she better do it if she doesn't want to spend her entire lesson on them accompanied by a lecture.

ETA: When dd was playing with her Suzuki teacher, sight reading was non-existent. It has taken 3 yrs to get her sight reading to catch up to her playing. It was rough bc orchestra placement requires a sight reading component. She has finally started to level out. It is still her weakest skill, though.

Edited May 13, 2023 by 8filltheheart

[Amoret]

I was pretty involved with DS15's piano and violin lessons in terms of scaffolding and support until he was about 11 or 12, and then he took over and is now completely independent. Even as an NT kid with pretty decent EF skills, a rigorous practice schedule, lessons, and competitions, would have been too much for him to manage on his own.

As far as the specific issues you have with the competitions, you might try three things:

1. Perhaps ask the teacher to consider having your DS start on the competition pieces later -- closer to the competition itself. With my DS's teacher, most of the kids in her studio took months to learn a piece and still struggled to get it polished in time for the competition. DS would learn it in a matter of just a few weeks, which caused some of the same problems you are describing.

2. Encourage your DS to develop methods for keeping a piece in "maintenance" mode. This is really important if there is a significant time gap between when the piece is ready and the date of the competition or when he would need to play the piece for different events (such as a competition and a recital several weeks later). For DS, this means that he only plays it through (in performance mode) once or twice per week. For the rest of the time, he will focus on some small part each day  -- the last ten measures, a hard run, just the right hand, just the left hand, switch hands (play the right hand part with the left hand), big jumps, scale passages, 10-20 measures in the center, the "A" section of a sonata, change the voicing in something like a Bach fugue, practice starting at different points in the piece, etc. This method works for him to keep the piece fresh and it gives him new things to think about/work on without getting bored. When it is really solid, he might not practice it every day, just enough to keep it up. You might be able to make a deal with him -- you can do the competition, but once the piece is ready, you need to work on it for 5-10 minutes (or whatever seems appropriate) every day in order to keep itup, and then you can move on to new stuff. That's not much time, and should be manageable.

3. Video record the piece periodically and have him critique it himself, making notes in the score and figuring out what he thinks he needs to focus on. You might also have him find recordings of other performers and critique their playing. What did he like? Do they interpret the piece differently? How did they play a particular passage? What did they do with voicing? How was the pedaling? Did they miss any notes? Is there anything you could imitate or try out?

 

Edited May 14, 2023 by Amoret

[lewelma]

17 minutes ago, Amoret said:

I was pretty involved with DS15's piano and violin lessons in terms of scaffolding and support until he was about 11 or 12, and then he took over and is now completely independent. Even as an NT kid with pretty decent EF skills, a rigorous practice schedule, lessons, and competitions, would have been too much for him to manage on his own.

As far as the specific issues you have with the competitions, you might try three things:

1. Perhaps ask the teacher to consider having your DS start on the competition pieces later -- closer to the competition itself. With my DS's teacher, most of the kids in her studio took months to learn a piece and still struggled to get it polished in time for the competition. DS would learn it in a matter of just a few weeks, which caused some of the same problems you are describing.

2. Encourage your DS to develop methods for keeping a piece in "maintenance" mode. This is really important if there is a significant time gap between when the piece is ready and the date of the competition or when he would need to play the piece for different events (such as a competition and a recital several weeks later). For DS, this means that he only plays it through (in performance mode) once or twice per week. For the rest of the time, he will focus on some small part each day  -- the last ten measures, a hard run, just the right hand, just the left hand, switch hands (play the right hand part with the left hand), big jumps, scale passages, 10-20 measures in the center, the "A" section of a sonata, change the voicing in something like a Bach fugue, practice starting at different points in the piece, etc. This method works for him to keep the piece fresh and it gives him new things to think about/work on without getting bored. When it is really solid, he might not practice it every day, just enough to keep it up. You might be able to make a deal with him -- you can do the competition, but once the piece is ready, you need to work on it for 5-10 minutes (or whatever seems appropriate) every day in order to keep itup, and then you can move on to new stuff. That's not much time, and should be manageable.

3. Video record the piece periodically and have him critique it himself, making notes in the score and figuring out what he thinks he needs to focus on. You might also have him find recordings of other performers and critique their playing. What did he like? Do they interpret the piece differently? How did they play a particular passage? What did they do with voicing? How was the pedaling? Did they miss any notes? Is there anything you could imitate or try out?

 

This is great advice.  It is easy to over play a piece.  Our ds's teacher had him learn a piece for the performance early, then take a break for a month and do other things, then loop back around before the exam and perfect it. We also used video recording so that ds could critique himself. 

[wendyroo]

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Well, I'm not sure how serious you'd consider my 13 yod (violinist) bc when she was 9, she would consider 10-15 mins serious practice.  (Actually, that was true at 10, 11, and probably most of 12, too.) 

Spencer's violin teacher limits him to 15 minutes of practice at a time so he maintains proper form (he has only been taking lessons since January, so there are a lot of new muscles being used). But he tends to do three 15 minute sessions a day.

His piano is...more. He tends to play for about 2-3 hours a day during the week and up to 5+ hours on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, wendyroo said:

Spencer's violin teacher limits him to 15 minutes of practice at a time so he maintains proper form (he has only been taking lessons since January, so there are a lot of new muscles being used). But he tends to do three 15 minute sessions a day.

His piano is...more. He tends to play for about 2-3 hours a day during the week and up to 5+ hours on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

It sounds like he must love it to play so much.  Maybe it is time to stop competitions and just embrace the love. 

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

My older started ABRSM exams at the age of 9, and this is the process we went through.  It took until about 16 for him to master it, and be able to prepare himself for one of these exams (they require a LOT of prep - as in 100+ hours).

They don't have ABRSM exams here, but they do have a similar achievement test that has performance (3 memorized pieces), theory, technique, sight reading, aural awareness, and transposition subtests.

Spencer tested level 7 this year, and earned 99.25 points out of 100, which regionally was the highest score at that level. We went into the test knowing that level 7 would be very easy for him, but kept him there since it was his first year. Next year he will test level 9.

[Not_a_Number]

4 minutes ago, lewelma said:

It sounds like he must love it to play so much.  Maybe it is time to stop competitions and just embrace the love. 

It sounds like he chooses to compete, though. 

But perhaps it'd be best to let him manage it himself more. Doing badly in a competition might be a useful lesson. 

[8filltheheart]

2 minutes ago, wendyroo said:

Spencer's violin teacher limits him to 15 minutes of practice at a time so he maintains proper form (he has only been taking lessons since January, so there are a lot of new muscles being used). But he tends to do three 15 minute sessions a day.

His piano is...more. He tends to play for about 2-3 hours a day during the week and up to 5+ hours on Saturdays and Sundays.

 

Whoa!  That is some serious practicing/playing.   Does he obsess?  That is more like our Aspie ds and drawing and attempting to make something perfect.  He would draw that same thing over and over and over for hours.  It was not a good thing.  It was very unhealthy.  If his practicing is healthy playing, then I would probably leave it alone.  But, I would equally not worry about competitions or at least how he does at them.  If he fails at a competition bc he didn't practice bc of how he was approaching practicing, I'd use natural consequences be how he learns.  Failure does not necessarily mean failure.  It can actually lead to huge growth.  I am huge on natural consequences doing the teaching if there is any conflict involved vs. simple reminders.  If failing is too traumatic, I wouldn't compete.

[wendyroo]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

Whoa!  That is some serious practicing/playing.   Does he obsess?  That is more like our Aspie ds and drawing and attempting to make something perfect.  He would draw that same thing over and over and over for hours.  It was not a good thing.  It was very unhealthy.  If his practicing is healthy playing, then I would probably leave it alone.  But, I would equally not worry about competitions or at least how he does at them.  If he fails at a competition bc he didn't practice bc of how he was approaching practicing, I'd use natural consequences be how he learns.  Failure does not necessarily mean failure.  It can actually lead to huge growth.  I am huge on natural consequences doing the teaching if there is any conflict involved vs. simple reminders.  If failing is too traumatic, I wouldn't compete.

His playing is definitely one of the main reasons that his psychiatrist thinks he may have ASD like his siblings. OTOH, his entire "team" (parents, grand parents, therapist, psychiatrist, one incredibly caring lower level piano teacher, one perceptive higher level piano teacher, one violin teacher, and one composition teacher) are all keeping a watchful eye on him, and don't deem his playing unhealthy at this point. He definitely uses it for coping and self-soothing, but he also has a balanced life full of biking, friends, extracurriculars, chores, art, school, Pokémon, reading, etc.

The feedback I get from the musical professionals in his life is that he hovers on the edge of being a prodigy. He just knows music theory. When he started piano lessons two years ago, his teacher tried to find his theory level. She had to teach a little vocabulary along the way, but other than that, she has yet to find a concept that he does not just intuitively know. His composition teacher says that Spencer fluently recognizes, discusses and uses college level theory.

He picked up a violin for the very first time in January, and immediately (like, within 5 minutes) started sight reading from Suzuki book 1 without anyone ever actually teaching him how to play different notes. He has only had 8 lessons so far, and he is deep into Suzuki book 2 and has shown that he is capable of playing many scales without ever being taught, or even really thinking about it himself. His fingers just know how to do it.

All that said, I'm not sure I'm ready to take a sink-or-swim approach to competitions right now. Whether or not he officially has ASD, he is very, very non-neurotypical. He does not learn from consequences like a neurotypical child might. It's not that failing is too traumatic, he has handled it relatively well, but "allowing" him to fail when I could have provided executive function support allowing him to succeed seems pointless if he is not mentally capable of learning from the failure and modifying his behavior to meet his goals.

[wendyroo]

2 hours ago, Not_a_Number said:

I don't think DD10 is anywhere near as serious a musician -- no ambitions to make it her life work -- but she has played by choice since kindergarten and is fairly advanced. 

We used to push her pretty hard. However, our goal over the last year and a half has been to work on her ability to self-regulate and motivate herself. As a result, we help her plan things out but try as hard as we can to lay off, including with her piano. 

Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in less academic and musical progress . . . but it has also resulted in a level of engagement and ownership that we're very, very proud of and that we have never seen before. 

For us, that's worth far more than how quickly she advances. She'll be able to use these skills all her life. 

I don't really think of myself as pushing Spencer. In fact, I held him back from lessons for a couple years because his enjoyment was my highest priority. It still is, but now I feel like I have to balance his current, right-this-minute enjoyment (playing through the book of Bach's inventions cover to cover because that is what strikes his fancy at the moment), with his opportunities for long term enjoyment in the occupation of his choice (which sometimes means putting aside the Bach for 20 minutes to practice a Sonata for a competition the next day).

Thankfully, we don't have to worry about Spencer's level of engagement...he has that in spades. And he definitely has a sense of ownership...he is the one choosing competitions, performances, teachers, pieces, etc. What he lacks is the maturity to know how to manage and organize that ownership to continually progress toward his goals. And I'm trying to find ways to help in that limited capacity without diminishing his sense of ownership.

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, Amoret said:

I was pretty involved with DS15's piano and violin lessons in terms of scaffolding and support until he was about 11 or 12, and then he took over and is now completely independent. Even as an NT kid with pretty decent EF skills, a rigorous practice schedule, lessons, and competitions, would have been too much for him to manage on his own.

As far as the specific issues you have with the competitions, you might try three things:

1. Perhaps ask the teacher to consider having your DS start on the competition pieces later -- closer to the competition itself. With my DS's teacher, most of the kids in her studio took months to learn a piece and still struggled to get it polished in time for the competition. DS would learn it in a matter of just a few weeks, which caused some of the same problems you are describing.

2. Encourage your DS to develop methods for keeping a piece in "maintenance" mode. This is really important if there is a significant time gap between when the piece is ready and the date of the competition or when he would need to play the piece for different events (such as a competition and a recital several weeks later). For DS, this means that he only plays it through (in performance mode) once or twice per week. For the rest of the time, he will focus on some small part each day  -- the last ten measures, a hard run, just the right hand, just the left hand, switch hands (play the right hand part with the left hand), big jumps, scale passages, 10-20 measures in the center, the "A" section of a sonata, change the voicing in something like a Bach fugue, practice starting at different points in the piece, etc. This method works for him to keep the piece fresh and it gives him new things to think about/work on without getting bored. When it is really solid, he might not practice it every day, just enough to keep it up. You might be able to make a deal with him -- you can do the competition, but once the piece is ready, you need to work on it for 5-10 minutes (or whatever seems appropriate) every day in order to keep itup, and then you can move on to new stuff. That's not much time, and should be manageable.

3. Video record the piece periodically and have him critique it himself, making notes in the score and figuring out what he thinks he needs to focus on. You might also have him find recordings of other performers and critique their playing. What did he like? Do they interpret the piece differently? How did they play a particular passage? What did they do with voicing? How was the pedaling? Did they miss any notes? Is there anything you could imitate or try out?

 

Thank you for all this advice.

1. We've had to find a bit of a work around for this, because it is always Spencer that is chomping at the bit to start on new pieces. Like right now, he has already chosen his sonata to perform at a festival in November. Our new strategy is to go along with that, but then when this one is mostly performance-ready, then we suggest he set it aside and work on a different sonata. Once we are a month out from the performance, then he can choose which of the 3-4 recent sonatas he wants to finish perfecting.

2. This has been a huge struggle. His only practice technique is playing a piece start to finish. He can take direct instructions to practice differently, ie "Play through the transition 10 times", but he can't assess his own playing or generate those practice strategies on his own. And I am not a musician, so I struggle to offer the concrete directions he needs. He is perfectly willing to maintain pieces (typically by playing through them a couple times a day), but he gets so caught up in playing for fun that he can't remember to do it on his own. Hence my search for concrete ways to support his executive function.

3. We do most of these things, and they work well for Spencer. Language is Spencer's huge weakness (another sign that points to ASD), so when watching other's performances, often he can only communicate his thoughts and analysis through piano. And since, again, I am not a musician, Spencer's comments are often a bit lost on me: "He played it like this, but she played it like this." When I can't for the life of me hear a difference in how he is playing the two...but his teachers can, so I trust him. 😆

[8filltheheart]

I think your conversation is at a completely different level than serious musicians and requires different answers. I think all the involved adults you mentioned would be better situated to help you find a path.  They know him and you. I would trust their insights.

I only have the one non-neurotyical kid, and his obsessive traits were all unhealthy. If one of my neurotypical kids wanted to practice that much at 9, I wouldn't let them.  That much of a hyper focus doesn't fit what I want for my young kids. But our scenario isnt yours and you need to find and what is best for him. That takes way more than a post's worth of information bc you have a lot going on with him.

 

[lewelma]

2 hours ago, wendyroo said:

It's not that failing is too traumatic, he has handled it relatively well, but "allowing" him to fail when I could have provided executive function support allowing him to succeed seems pointless if he is not mentally capable of learning from the failure and modifying his behavior to meet his goals.

I sure you know all about asymmetries in highly gifted kids.  Mine struggled with executive function skills for years (as in until he was 20 or even 21). For my high asymmetric kid, I acted as his executive function piece of his brain for years, but I did it *while* training him to do it himself.  I described above the types of questions I needed to ask. We tried writing it, drawing it, orally talking, sticker charts, paper chains, self-rewards, we basically tried every single thing I could think of. For us it was an unbelievably long process -- 10+ years.  My ds was taking grad-level math classes at MIT as a freshman while still calling me for help on trying to figure out how to prioritise homework each day.  But slow and steady wins the race, and it is obviously a valuable/critical skill to learn. IMHO, there is some indication that your ds may have a learning disability in executive function skills or at least a major asynchrony.  I would suggest you meet him where he is at and work every so carefully and slowly to help him master these skills.

I will also agree with 8. You have people in your life who can see your son and give you feedback as to how to handle this very special situation.  However, I will tell you that when my ds was about 9, he got super intense with his math. Hours upon hours a day.  In the end, I hid the book until we could come to an agreement.  Now, he was pushing himself so hard that he would cry for hours while continuing to work and would refuse all help.  But I could see that the intensity was unhealthy.  Sounds like this is not the case for your ds, but I did want to say that if you see it heading towards something unhealthy, you should intervene. It is just a circuit breaker, not an end to the passion.  My ds just needed a week off and a new, more balanced approach. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by lewelma

[Amoret]

9 hours ago, wendyroo said:

His piano is...more. He tends to play for about 2-3 hours a day during the week and up to 5+ hours on Saturdays and Sundays.

One other thing that you might want to watch out for is pain in his hands and wrists, particularly given the fact that he is still growing. I say this because I know of at least one student (she studied with DS's first teacher) who practiced piano for long hours like that and developed severe tendonitis, to the point where she had to give up playing altogether (this was at the college level; she was at a top program with a really demanding teacher at that point). With things like the Inventions or any of the early sonatas, he is probably fine, but when he gets into pieces like Liszt's transcendental etudes, big concertos, or others with many extended large chord sequences, loud octave runs (where the hand is stretched to an octave or more), and similar movements that strain the hands, you might just check in from time to time to make sure he is okay.

[wendyroo]

1 hour ago, Amoret said:

One other thing that you might want to watch out for is pain in his hands and wrists, particularly given the fact that he is still growing. I say this because I know of at least one student (she studied with DS's first teacher) who practiced piano for long hours like that and developed severe tendonitis, to the point where she had to give up playing altogether (this was at the college level; she was at a top program with a really demanding teacher at that point). With things like the Inventions or any of the early sonatas, he is probably fine, but when he gets into pieces like Liszt's transcendental etudes, big concertos, or others with many extended large chord sequences, loud octave runs (where the hand is stretched to an octave or more), and similar movements that strain the hands, you might just check in from time to time to make sure he is okay.

His teachers are pretty firm about limiting some pieces that they think are not good for his hands. And a big emphasis in his lessons right now is being very conscious of where he is holding tension in his shoulders, arms and fingers. Especially his higher level piano teacher, who has performed around the world, focuses on exact proper form to reduce strain and injury.

[wendyroo]

10 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I think all the involved adults you mentioned would be better situated to help you find a path.  They know him and you. I would trust their insights.

I understand what you are saying, unfortunately, none of the other adults are involved in the whole picture.

His mental health team certainly can advise about fixation and executive function scaffolding, but they don't have the musical background to actually help me know how to scaffold and support the tasks he is faced with. (Often the problem is that I am not even clear about what the tasks are exactly since I am not a musician and have never had to practice or perform at nearly this level.)

And his music teachers constantly tell me that they have never met a student like Spencer and don't know how to balance and support his talents and asymmetries. Hence how we have found ourselves with two piano teachers...one "normal" piano teacher who has a ton of experience working with nine year olds, but very little working with students at Spencer's level, and another a college professor who has experience teaching at a high level and performing as a concert pianist, but very little experience teaching nine year old, especially non-neurotypical ones.

I think I got some of what I was looking for from Amoret and lewelma as they broke down some of the mental and physical steps to practicing...exactly what questions to consider and techniques to try as I scaffold his practice.

[wendyroo]

10 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

If one of my neurotypical kids wanted to practice that much at 9, I wouldn't let them.

Oh, and I wanted to clarify that he certainly doesn't "practice" for that many hours a day. He only "practices" for about 30 minutes a day. This is the time he works on scales and pieces that have been assigned by his teachers. The rest of the time he plays is entirely during free time, and is a leisure activity. It is the same as if a child was reading for a couple hours a day, or playing basketball or watching a movie. I am certainly not enforcing or even encouraging that much playing, but I am also not forbidding it as long as he is 1) following his teachers' rules about limiting strain and protecting his body, 2) fulfilling his other responsibilities, and 3) taking part in a wide range of other recreational activities.

[lewelma]

6 hours ago, wendyroo said:

His teachers are pretty firm about limiting some pieces that they think are not good for his hands. And a big emphasis in his lessons right now is being very conscious of where he is holding tension in his shoulders, arms and fingers. Especially his higher level piano teacher, who has performed around the world, focuses on exact proper form to reduce strain and injury.

My older boy played enough that he developed fiddler's neck, an infection of the practice mark on the neck of violinists. In the end, the solution was a antimicrobial silver-infused cloth that he wears every time he plays/practices. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiddler's_neck

[lewelma]

7 hours ago, wendyroo said:

Often the problem is that I am not even clear about what the tasks are exactly since I am not a musician and have never had to practice or perform at nearly this level.

I say this carefully and with full understanding of the ramifications. You may need to learn. It really depends on how much you want to support your son. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, more your parenting philosophy.  Philosophically, do you want to support his weakest skills so his best skills can fly; or do you want him to develop more evenly and with more of a focus on independence?  Both are valid choices, and both lead to good outcomes. I think it depends on the parent and the child. 

For my family, we chose the first option.  I learned how to support his violin. I could not play, but I could study what needed to be done during practice, what I should look for with how he was playing the violin so he didn't fall back into bad habits.  At one point, after he broke his arm at age 11 and it finally came out of the cast, I stood with him for Every. single. moment. of. every. single. practice and held a pencil next to his wrist to make sure his wrist did not pancake. That was for 4 full weeks. My dh even researched how to support him develop a better vibrato. Because ds had broken his arm, it was tricky to do vibrato (his was too jerky because the nerves had been impacted by the break) and his teacher was struggling to give specific instructions as he had never taught a kid vibrato who had a broken arm heal that way. My dh watched videos of different techniques, and then worked for 2 full years, trying this and that with our ds until he was successful.

As for preparing for competitions, ABRSM is similar to competitions, in that there are winners (ds won top scorer for all instruments and all grades k-12 when he was 13).  To prepare, I went through the syllabus and studyied what the judges were looking for, how each step could improve his ability (not just his score). I sat with him while he memorized 50 scales (which on the violin is quite a thing), we tracked with a little chart how each one was progressing, what he could remember first time accurate. It took him 8 weeks of 30 minutes a day on scales only to get them done (separate from all the other preparation). The chart was a very visible remind of what needed to be accomplished. In addition, my dh did all the ear work *with* him at night - 100s of hours. My dh didn't know the ear work, but learned it with him. My boy had an auditory processing disorder, so ear work was close to impossible to master. In fact, violin itself was close to impossible to master given he couldn't hear the notes. He could not hear what was in tune. He became such an amazing violinist through sheer drive and intellect. He used other parts of his mind to compensate for his learning disability, and then slowly every so slowly rewired his brain to overcome it. And throughout all this work, we were in it WITH him.  BUT we did not force him to play, we did not nag him, it was all directed by him.  We would tell him what needed to be done by the exam date, then lay out the plan together that we thought would work. We talked about buffer time at the end, and mental well-being in the middle of the frustration of the picky details. We drove him to lessons, rehearsals, string group, orchestra, and performances. We lived violin.  

This was our choice to be this involved. There are different parenting philosophies and the above was our choice, made with much reflection and self-evaluation along the way to make sure we were the parents we wanted to be.  But I will say that there is NO WAY that my ds would be so accomplished and find violin his best friend if we had not walked this path with him. The auditory processing disorder was a major hurtle to overcome, and it was not one he could have done by himself. 

So I guess what I am saying, is that maybe you need to sit down and have a good hard think as to what it is you believe about the role of a parent, and what you think is best for this specific child. And then implement that approach. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

@lewelma Your boys are so incredibly blessed to have you and your dh for parents.  What you have managed to help them overcome is amazing.  

[lewelma]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

@lewelma Your boys are so incredibly blessed to have you and your dh for parents.  What you have managed to help them overcome is amazing.  

Thanks so much for that, 8. So few people truly understand the difficulties and struggles of homeschooling. As you know, it is a long hard road but incredibly rewarding.

[lewelma]

I wanted to add one more thing. Violin for my ds was more than just an instrument, it was his pathway into friendships and camaraderie. He was an akward child whom many thought was on the spectrum. Music was critical to his social development. Here is one of his university application essays about what music meant for him, and the impact it has had on his life:

-------

Prompt: Describe the world you come from; for example, your family, clubs, school, community, city, or town. How has that world shaped your dreams and aspirations?

Throughout my life, maths and music have been my constant companions. Maths has given me passion and purpose, while music has given me my community. 

I am lucky to be a part of a family who appreciates mathematics and loves science and technology. However, from the age of twelve, I have outpaced both my parents and my peers in maths, requiring me to study independently. 

My peers came from music. For the past six years, I have been actively involved in a series of chamber music groups and small string orchestras. These ensembles have given me my community -- a collection of quirky, outgoing individuals who aspire to become professional musicians. Through their friendship, I have become more outgoing and less self conscious. I have learned how to handle disasters on stage: I have forgotten pieces of music played from memory, had to improvise when my trio skipped a section, and had to reassemble twelve pages of sheet music off of the floor. Music has also given me opportunities to practice public speaking, lead a small string orchestra, and mentor younger students. The music community has helped me to develop the people skills critical to all endeavors, and has convinced me that I love working in groups. I love the people and the camaraderie.

Music has made me realise that I don’t want to do mathematics in isolation, that I want to be a part of a collaborative project, working together towards a common goal.

Edited May 14, 2023 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

That's such a heartfelt description!  Beautiful.  I am so glad he found his community.  (My dd feels the same way about the music people she is around.)

[madteaparty]

I guess it’s classical music we are talking about. Paging  @Roadrunner

my kid never practiced. I can say with conviction that all those years of piano lessons were a waste. He asked for guitar in high school and that went better because he wanted it.  Certainly I was not going to learn music from scratch to support anything.   But now he produces music and concerts and has thousands of followers on Spotify. Sometimes it’s a fate thing 🤷‍♀️

Edited May 14, 2023 by madteaparty

[lewelma]

Who had a dd who was the irish-style fiddler? She was touring throughout the country really young, like age 12. I bet she would have some good advice. 

[8filltheheart]

9 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

I guess it’s classical music we are talking about. Paging  @Roadrunner

my kid never practiced. I can say with conviction that all those years of piano piano lessons were a waste. He asked for guitar in high school and that went better because he wanted it.  Certainly I was not going to learn music from scratch to support anything.   But now he produces music and concerts and has thousands of followers on Spotify. Sometimes it’s a fate thing 🤷‍♀️

Same.  (My dd is currently very motivated.  She was just hired today to play for a June wedding.  She plays for our church choir and they heard her playing and came up and asked if she would play for them.  She is super psyched today.   Good thing bc her motivation and progress has to be 100% her. )

That said, I am very impressed by Wendy and Ruth.  Their kids are very lucky to have them as moms.  I am utterly amazed by what they do for their kids.

[lewelma]

53 minutes ago, madteaparty said:

Certainly I was not going to learn music from scratch to support anything.  

I think that is the point. It really depends on the parents' philosophy and the child's needs. For us, if we were not doing violin, we would have needed to be in therapy for his auditory processing problem. I worked quite a bit back in the day with the learning-disabilities section of this board, and they were all about therapy and metronome work and other remediation methods -- hours and hours a week to deal with it. Violin was fulfilling all these remediation needs. We had known about ds's auditory processing problem since he was 4 when he had developed a major speech impediment which required intensive therapy. And it had impacted his spelling in a horrible way because he learned to read while he had the speech impediment, so he had mapped the wrong sounds to the letters (that was a massive remediation in and of itself!). Plus, with the on-the-spectrum-thing, music seemed the most efficient way to attack all these problems at the same time. By the time he was 9, we realised that we could also use music to remediate his executive function issues and teach him these critical skills.

I think that homeschooling is rarely silo-ed in skill development. We weren't supporting his music, we were supporting the child. And violin allowed for a synergy that was extremely effective.  But the weightings would be completely different for other families and other children. That is why IMHO parents need to take some time to *think* about what they need to accomplish and how they plan to go about it. 

Edited May 14, 2023 by lewelma

[8filltheheart]

2 hours ago, lewelma said:

Who had a dd who was the irish-style fiddler? She was touring throughout the country really young, like age 12. I bet she would have some good advice. 

https://forums.welltrainedmind.com/search/?&q=Fiddle&author=Donna&search_and_or=or

[Roadrunner]

Well, I am not sure I have anything to add. So much has been said. I have a serious musician but not if one judges by the time spent on the instrument. He picked up a cello at 11 and in five years won a concerto competition against kids who have played twice as long and practice three times as much. I would say the perfect sauce here has been an extraordinary talent coupled with an extraordinary teacher who approaches every tiny imperfection as a technician. I wouldn’t say he practices much. Maybe an hour. Sometimes two. But he approaches his practice as a technician. Dvorak concerto needed several measure to be worked through. Two of them (teacher and my kid) worked it out as almost like a math problem understanding why/what was giving trouble. The rest just comes naturally. 
I don’t tell him to practice. Ever. But when he plays, he gives his 100%. And he irons out every tiny imperfection. 
I guess in short, if you have an amazingly skilled teacher, there isn’t much you can do. He has talent and desire. I wouldn’t mess with the rest. But I have a very neurotypical kid, so my advice might not be as useful since I have never worked with kids who aren’t. 

[Ting Tang]

We've heard your son play, and he is indeed a brilliant pianist!  My pianist has been playing for a year and is nowhere near your son's level. He genuinely enjoys playing, though somedays he doesn't even sit down and play.  He is 9 going on 10.

Then I have my daughter, who is 8, and she is an artistic athlete.  I posted within the last year about her, and ultimately, I was upset by her lack of desire to be self-motivated.  I nailed it down. I realized it wasn't developmentally appropriate to expect that just yet of her.  She relies on me to plan her practices.  She does not complain--but she is famous for dwadling and wasting time.  I suspect she has attention/focus issues.  Sometimes it is upsetting to me, and I just wish I didn't have to be as involved because I have other children who need my time and attention.  I make a daily list for her, and I highlight what she can do on her own.  Due to risk of injury, I do feel I need to supervise her practices.  She has made a lot of progress quickly this last year, but there are also kids her age who are far more advanced.  I cannot fathom any 8 year old putting in more than 3-4 hour per day, so I assume those kids are more effective and efficient in their practicing than my daughter, combined with natural ability.  And you know...it should be about the enjoyment, but there is an emphasis on competition...and sometimes I just cannot imagine having to "manage her" like this for years to come. 

Also, we both get bored of routines she spends months on.  They often get revised, but sometimes they just need an overhaul.  Do piano competition pieces need to be selected so far ahead of time?  Maybe your son just doesn't need so much time to prepare and be ready, especially since it seems he enjoys learning new pieces. 

I'm going to see where all of this goes as she grows older.  If it makes you feel better, her coach did tell me that kids with involved parents do progress faster and easier.  She said it is okay, though, for a parent NOT to be involved for whatever reasons.  

I find some of this so consuming mentally.  And I get tired.  While I do not have advice, I do hope as time goes on, kids can take on more of the responsibility. Sorry I have no good advice.  I think a lot of people go through what you are going through.  

 

Edited May 15, 2023 by Ting Tang

[wendyroo]

18 hours ago, lewelma said:

I say this carefully and with full understanding of the ramifications. You may need to learn. It really depends on how much you want to support your son. And I don't mean that in a snarky way, more your parenting philosophy.  Philosophically, do you want to support his weakest skills so his best skills can fly; or do you want him to develop more evenly and with more of a focus on independence?  Both are valid choices, and both lead to good outcomes. I think it depends on the parent and the child. 

I think this post was part of me trying to learn...without really even knowing exactly what I need to learn.

Philosophically we are fully committed to providing accommodations, for as long as necessary, to allow our kids to thrive and succeed. Realistically, Spencer's neuro-divergence, even medicated, would make music lessons virtually pointless without me sitting there the whole time acting as a one on one aid helping him focus, make choices, transition, and remember instructions. Spencer's primary piano teacher, who is an absolute gem, recognized his unique situation very quickly, and over the last two years we have learned to work together very well.

So the lessons are pretty well squared away, and now I am working on finding the right level and type of support for at home.

[Amoret]

Since you are so actively involved in his lessons, would it be feasible for you to sit with him for the 30 minutes each day that he practices his lesson material in order to provide continuity and guidance? Perhaps you already do this, but it was helpful in our case. Like you, I am no musician (right now, I am muddling through pieces that DS could sightread at 5), but I was a good student and learned a lot from his teachers about how to help guide DS.

Honestly, it sounds like you are very much on the right track, that you have some excellent teachers, and that your son is really thriving.

On tangentially related note, and since you say that your DS has an intuitive knowledge of theory, has he tried any composing?  Does he improvise? He might really enjoy composing, in particular and then playing some of his own pieces. Programs like Finale are really easy to use. He might also like chip-tune composing (i.e. video game music). I know nothing about how this works, but it is another area of music that DS has really enjoyed and that has been a great complement to his playing.

Edited May 15, 2023 by Amoret

[wendyroo]

25 minutes ago, Amoret said:

Since you are so actively involved in his lessons, would it be feasible for you to sit with him for the 30 minutes each day that he practices his lesson material in order to provide continuity and guidance? Perhaps you already do this, but it was helpful in our case. Like you, I am no musician (right now, I am muddling through pieces that DS could sightread at 5), but I was a good student and learned a lot from his teachers about how to help guide DS.

Honestly, it sounds like you are very much on the right track, that you have some excellent teachers, and that your son is really thriving.

On tangentially related note, and since you say that your DS has an intuitive knowledge of theory, has he tried any composing?  Does he improvise? He might really enjoy composing, in particular and then playing some of his own pieces. Programs like Finale are really easy to use. He might also like chip-tune composing (i.e. video game music). I know nothing about how this works, but it is another area of music that DS has really enjoyed and that has been a great complement to his playing.

I can...kind of...supervise practice, but I realistically can't give him full attention. I have four very special needs kids, and for better or for worse, Spencer is pretty far down the list in terms of severity of needs. It already takes a huge amount of juggling making sure no one else falls apart while I attend lessons for 3-4 hours a week with Spencer. Right now I try to meet with him for 5 minutes at the beginning of practice to decide what needs to be worked on. And that helps him, but I still struggle every day figuring out for myself what he should be working on. I am pretty good at keeping a mental list of what he will be performing when, but I need a system for keeping track of and rotating through smaller goals...and remembering what progress he has made, what issues he has had, what advice he has been given, etc.

As for composing, YES! Spencer spends a ton of time composing, and he is very good at it. He recently finished a sonata for piano and violin, and his teachers decided that helping him improve it was beyond their level and recommended he start composition lessons with a member of the symphony. 

[Ting Tang]

1 hour ago, wendyroo said:

I can...kind of...supervise practice, but I realistically can't give him full attention. I have four very special needs kids, and for better or for worse, Spencer is pretty far down the list in terms of severity of needs. It already takes a huge amount of juggling making sure no one else falls apart while I attend lessons for 3-4 hours a week with Spencer. Right now I try to meet with him for 5 minutes at the beginning of practice to decide what needs to be worked on. And that helps him, but I still struggle every day figuring out for myself what he should be working on. I am pretty good at keeping a mental list of what he will be performing when, but I need a system for keeping track of and rotating through smaller goals...and remembering what progress he has made, what issues he has had, what advice he has been given, etc.

As for composing, YES! Spencer spends a ton of time composing, and he is very good at it. He recently finished a sonata for piano and violin, and his teachers decided that helping him improve it was beyond their level and recommended he start composition lessons with a member of the symphony. 

He sounds amazing.  Can his teachers make practice sheets for him in detail with required content?  Check off what he completes.  It's really hard to balance something rather advanced/intense with other children's needs.  I can empathize.  Also, music education covers fine arts and history.  One thing I got out of the Kirk Cameron homeschool documentary (as perfect as them seemed) is that family are OK with prioritizing this sort of thing in the child's school day.  There was a girl who was a talented cake decorator as a teen, and they said, yes---it does come first!  

[Eos]

On 5/14/2023 at 6:22 PM, lewelma said:

We weren't supporting his music, we were supporting the child.

This.  Dd is a serious musician and a lot of her high school was supporting her need to be in almost constant contact with music in some way.  We never had her diagnosed but we knew she has synesthesia and so just assumed she was wired a little differently, nothing profound.

 

17 hours ago, Amoret said:

Honestly, it sounds like you are very much on the right track, that you have some excellent teachers, and that your son is really thriving.

Seconding this. It might just feel harder than the excellent support you give all of your special needs kids because it's music and you're not inside it in the same way as he is?

 

16 hours ago, wendyroo said:

I am pretty good at keeping a mental list of what he will be performing when, but I need a system for keeping track of and rotating through smaller goals

Dd's teacher had her keep a notebook with a very specific checklist.  We were many hours away from her teacher and took lessons once a week. To this day dd uses the notebook system for both music and academics, it's almost a self-soothing thing when she gets it out and maps her week.

Edited May 16, 2023 by Eos

[Dmmetler]

One thing I'd strongly suggest-get connected to a sports medicine center with orthos, OT, PT, etc. Music at the level Spenser is working towards/at is the same sort of physical stress. This was something I hadn't realized even with good instructors until I ended up going to the medical center in grad school and had the doctor refer me to sports medicine-and had the Ortho ask "so, gymnast, musician, or dancer?"-because those were the three categories he saw with that type of injury.  If he starts experiencing pain AT ALL, it needs to be evaluated, particularly when he starts heading into puberty.

 

 

It sounds like he's keeping up with his theory, which is good, and violin will really build his ear training and be a good complement. 

 

Overall, I think you're doing everything right.