What to do when you are fully convinced/disagree with family member?

[Melissa Louise]

The only person you have real influence over is yourself, so I vote, go to counselling to work out what this dynamic triggers in you, and why you might be 'appeasing the gods' in your responses.

Once you get clear, and are interacting out of desire (could just be a desire to do one's duty) my experience is opportunities do arise where you can speak genuinely to the person about what you are finding hard in the relationship, without great expectations of change. And then, depending on response, that's info you can use to refine your boundaries.

 

[Shoeless]

3 hours ago, sheryl said:

Another poster mentioned grey lock.  What the heck is that?!?!! See, I can NOT avoid being around this person as B is a close relative of mine.  I don't have to see them every chance but I will see them and want to.  I love B and want to see B - but it's just usually a difficult visit b/c something happens.

Grey rock is basically being really dull and not giving detailed answers to questions, because information fuels drama with some people. 

I grey rock with my family of origin because any details about my life because starting points for debate and arguing.

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, wintermom said:

It may be hard to believe, but there are people who thrive on drama. You said that you assumed B is unhappy. That may not be the case AT ALL. This could be what they love and how they like to interact with others. If this behaviour is constant, then why not assume it's intentional. 

Well, that really depends on definition and one's interpretation.  I do agree with you that this is how B interacts and I do believe many times it's intentional.  I just go further to say that B seems unhappy.  Just can't get in to details but B seems to be trying to live life through another person.   There are so very many variables.  Bizarre.  But, if approached B's immediate response would be self-preservation and would find any reason to support her.  Not worded well but that gives you an idea.

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Yes, the lying, deceit and manipulation keeps everyone off balance and builds drama. It is intentional.

But, why?  Why does someone want to live their life that way?  Control?  Attention?  

[sheryl]

3 hours ago, Harriet Vane said:

A similar dynamic is behavior in front of “outsiders.” Many years ago, I had some unhappy, dysfunctional people in my life. (That generation has since passed away.) I started inviting my darling mother-in-law to gatherings. She was such a pleasant, laughing, smiling, chatting, lovely person. She was an outsider, which put everyone on best behavior. Awesome. And she was such a likeable, encouraging person that the group would relax in spite of themselves. 

Outsider? DId she act differently privately? That's interesting.

[sheryl]

19 minutes ago, importswim said:

Biblical conflict resolution is important! Is this family member a believer? If not then Matthew 18 doesn't really apply, though speaking truth in love and gentleness can sometimes go down well. Praying like you're already doing is the best thing. When we're praying for the difficult people in our lives it serves two purposes: Petitioning with the Lord to change their hearts (and call them to Himself if they're not believers), and gives us a special kind of love for that person.

However, you can easily have boundaries and also be peaceable with them so you don't always have to say something or get yourself involved in a drawn out conflict (which it might be if you confront). Be praying for discernment. I think it's wise to not jump in and correct, like you've already been doing.

I would definitely say that it's helpful to see a biblical counselor if only to just get some tools to use. Difficult people are so hard. I have a couple of them in my life!

Yes, B is a believer.  I just can't imagine not saying something because this has been B's "m.o." for decades and everyone has put up with it.  Oh dear!

[Melissa Louise]

4 minutes ago, sheryl said:

But, why?  Why does someone want to live their life that way?  Control?  Attention?  

Because not every person is functional.

Sometimes people have disturbances (often trauma-initiated but not always) in their personality that are difficult to understand, and to change.

You know, with kids, we say 'all behavior is communication' ? So yes, maybe the behavior is communicating a need for control, or a need for attention...sometimes people are driven by these needs. It's usually because they are in some way, damaged AND lack a capacity for reflection on self.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Melissa Louise

[sheryl]

22 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

The only person you have real influence over is yourself, so I vote, go to counselling to work out what this dynamic triggers in you, and why you might be 'appeasing the gods' in your responses.

Once you get clear, and are interacting out of desire (could just be a desire to do one's duty) my experience is opportunities do arise where you can speak genuinely to the person about what you are finding hard in the relationship, without great expectations of change. And then, depending on response, that's info you can use to refine your boundaries.

 

I feel I'm already there as I've been contemplating for at LEAST 5 years!  Just truthful, non-confrontational, non self-righteous dialog that perhaps when you tell someone "I wish so and so would have never married you" to an audience and many other "like" attacks, hopefully B will understand another angle.  B did NOT say this to me re: my dh.  Again, this is B interacting mostly within B's immediate circle but attacks can be showered on others as well.

[Melissa Louise]

26 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I feel I'm already there as I've been contemplating for at LEAST 5 years!  Just truthful, non-confrontational, non self-righteous dialog that perhaps when you tell someone "I wish so and so would have never married you" to an audience and many other "like" attacks, hopefully B will understand another angle.  B did NOT say this to me re: my dh.  Again, this is B interacting mostly within B's immediate circle but attacks can be showered on others as well.

Begin from the perspective this person is unlikely to change.

They may not have the capacity.

Two ways of communicating the dialog - the most powerful, through your actions.  Withdraw. You'd like to see them but they are not a good person to see.

Or, have a short 'record player' statement - you wheel out this one statement when person exhibit the target behavior. The statement needs to calmly communicate that the behavior isn't acceptable. Phrase it positively if you can.

 

[prairiewindmomma]

39 minutes ago, Melissa Louise said:

Because not every person is functional.

Sometimes people have disturbances (often trauma-initiated but not always) in their personality that are difficult to understand, and to change.

You know, with kids, we say 'all behavior is communication' ? So yes, maybe the behavior is communicating a need for control, or a need for attention...sometimes people are driven by these needs. It's usually because they are in some way, damaged AND lack a capacity for reflection on self.

This.

 

47 minutes ago, sheryl said:

But, why?  Why does someone want to live their life that way?  Control?  Attention?  

Manipulating others does give some people a sense of control they may feel is lacking in their own lives. Manufacturing drama where they become the victim can give them attention.

We’re not dealing with normal and healthy right? These aren’t normal or healthy behaviors so the person expressing them isn’t having a normal and healthy thought process behind that.

[lauraw4321]

@sheryl What would you be trying to accomplish?

[Faith-manor]

6 hours ago, TexasProud said:

What if the person is your adult child? (Which might be the close family member) That would be hard for me. 

The thing is, it is pretty awful to have to keep an emotional distance from your child. But, the thing is, as we age, we do not handle the stress and anxiety of being regularly tied into knots by people who act as the OP has described. It causes our adrenal glands to wear out, our arteries to shred, on top of all of the regular wear and tear of aging. Adult kids do have a responsibility to seek help, or at least be polite and not create unnecessary drama. My own grandparents cut their daughter, the youngest, out of their lives with only limited phone contact for twenty years because my grandfather's health could not handle it. She kept them tied in knots, walking on eggshells, and he developed heart problems at the age of 50 much of which was attributable to her. Very sad. But it had to be done all three of the other children agreed. It was potentially the only time in my entire childhood that my aunt, uncle, and dad were in full agreement.

I do not think that the OP needs to go no contact, hard and fast. Just limit the instances and length of time, try not to engage.

 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

Well, that really depends on definition and one's interpretation.  I do agree with you that this is how B interacts and I do believe many times it's intentional.  I just go further to say that B seems unhappy.  Just can't get in to details but B seems to be trying to live life through another person.   

 

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

But, why?  Why does someone want to live their life that way?  Control?  Attention?  

Insecurity is the main factor why my MIL and my aunt acts that way. They also have slight mercenary tendencies. FIL is less insecure but does like getting attention. The lying part is mercenary driven for all three as in they lie with hopes of benefitting themselves.

[sheryl]

1 hour ago, Melissa Louise said:

Begin from the perspective this person is unlikely to change.

They may not have the capacity.

Two ways of communicating the dialog - the most powerful, through your actions.  Withdraw. You'd like to see them but they are not a good person to see.

Or, have a short 'record player' statement - you wheel out this one statement when person exhibit the target behavior. The statement needs to calmly communicate that the behavior isn't acceptable. Phrase it positively if you can.

 

OK, I understand where you are coming from.  This is good!  Thanks!

1 hour ago, prairiewindmomma said:

This.

 

Manipulating others does give some people a sense of control they may feel is lacking in their own lives. Manufacturing drama where they become the victim can give them attention.

We’re not dealing with normal and healthy right? These aren’t normal or healthy behaviors so the person expressing them isn’t having a normal and healthy thought process behind that.

Because these negative expressions are habitual I would say it's not normal.   If once in a blue moon to make a point, maybe it's different?    IDK.   To make that point.   

40 minutes ago, lauraw4321 said:

@sheryl What would you be trying to accomplish?

IDK Laura except I love this person and am thinking after DECADES maybe B needs to see the light!   
 

[sheryl]

23 minutes ago, Faith-manor said:

The thing is, it is pretty awful to have to keep an emotional distance from your child. But, the thing is, as we age, we do not handle the stress and anxiety of being regularly tied into knots by people who act as the OP has described. It causes our adrenal glands to wear out, our arteries to shred, on top of all of the regular wear and tear of aging. Adult kids do have a responsibility to seek help, or at least be polite and not create unnecessary drama. My own grandparents cut their daughter, the youngest, out of their lives with only limited phone contact for twenty years because my grandfather's health could not handle it. She kept them tied in knots, walking on eggshells, and he developed heart problems at the age of 50 much of which was attributable to her. Very sad. But it had to be done all three of the other children agreed. It was potentially the only time in my entire childhood that my aunt, uncle, and dad were in full agreement.

I do not think that the OP needs to go no contact, hard and fast. Just limit the instances and length of time, try not to engage.

 

That is a sad situation as well.  I've mentioned this is NOT my DD.  B and immediate family are my extending family (well some, I have more extended family too).

[sheryl]

16 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Insecurity is the main factor why my MIL and my aunt acts that way. They also have slight mercenary tendencies. FIL is less insecure but does like getting attention. The lying part is mercenary driven for all three as in they lie with hopes of benefitting themselves.

But, lies are usually found out.  Why lie?  Swallow and speak up with truth.  Most people are gracious and will work with the other person.   I've caught B in 2 lies this year.  No, I'm not keeping track although it seems like it but I was dumbfounded.  B escapes being found out but both of those lies were in/directly related to me.  Not about me.  

[sheryl]

DH and I have been talking last night and today about yesterday's get together.  After I explained my perspective as outlined here he thinks I shouldn't say anything because he doesn't think it will yield any result.  

So, maybe on to a counselor for advice.  Will reread these responses and likely group "like" responses to share with the therapist (no names)!  

I guess I'm touchy because I grew up with a dear family member who make scenes usually at a restaurant and embarrass EVERYONE!  Flirting with the waitress and becoming angry with cooler temperature food and coffee and habitually sending it back to be heated.    There may be a connection here.

Getting ready to delete and THANK YOU ALL for not quoting.   I'm wiped out over this.   MY THANKS!

[lauraw4321]

@sheryl You won’t be able to make them see the light. I speak from experience. Focus on what you can control and change - which is just yourself. 

[Carol in Cal.]

Just now, lauraw4321 said:

@sheryl You won’t be able to make them see the light. I speak from experience. Focus on what you can control and change - which is just yourself. 

While this might be true, it's also true that they might mitigate that behavior at times.  That would be quite an improvement right there.

[Arcadia]

8 minutes ago, sheryl said:

But, lies are usually found out.  Why lie?  

They lie to look good. For example, MIL lie about breastfeeding because it is supposed to boost IQ of babies. So she would claim that her children are smart due to breastfeeding to acquaintances. FIL’s sister won’t know who she brag to and FIL would of course not call her out if he heard since he likes the compliments too. 

[Harriet Vane]

2 hours ago, sheryl said:

Outsider? DId she act differently privately? That's interesting.

By outsider, I mean someone who is outside the intimate little group. It's not really a good or bad thing, just a fact of who is in the group and who is not in the usual group. So in this case, the group was composed of relatives on one side of the family. My mother-in-law was from dh's side of the family, of course, so she was not a member of my family of origin. She was her own, authentic, lovely self with everyone. But since she was not one of the group of my relatives--in other words, since she was an outsider to them--the group of my relatives felt they needed to behave. Kind of like when kids in a classroom all go quiet when the principal visits the room? So mil's presence sparked "company manners," but her friendliness and her smiles and her chatting helped them relax and enjoy and treat each other well rather than making ugly, catty comments at each other. Does that make sense?

[sheryl]

2 minutes ago, Harriet Vane said:

By outsider, I mean someone who is outside the intimate little group. It's not really a good or bad thing, just a fact of who is in the group and who is not in the usual group. So in this case, the group was composed of relatives on one side of the family. My mother-in-law was from dh's side of the family, of course, so she was not a member of my family of origin. She was her own, authentic, lovely self with everyone. But since she was not one of the group of my relatives--in other words, since she was an outsider to them--the group of my relatives felt they needed to behave. Kind of like when kids in a classroom all go quiet when the principal visits the room? So mil's presence sparked "company manners," but her friendliness and her smiles and her chatting helped them relax and enjoy and treat each other well rather than making ugly, catty comments at each other. Does that make sense?

Oh yes, got it!  Interesting take.  DH told me tonight B acts differently to me than others.  I'll press him on that to ask what he means by that.  

[catz]

I don't think trying to get someone "to see the light" is likely to be productive.  Shutting down inappropriate behavoir in the moment consistently may "train" this person to change their behavior when you are together as a group.  If laying down these types of boundaries is difficult for you, maybe counseling is in order because it's likely to affect other areas of your life as well.  

I don't think we're under any obligation to meet with someone regularly who causes a lot of stress.  But over time I've gotten good at just letting other people ridicuous behavior and mental health issues go and not engaging in it because there are some relationships worth maintaining at least at a surface level.  Like in the case of someone embarassing at a restaurant regularly, I just wouldn't meet that person at restaurants any more.  I'd invite them over for dessert or meet at a park or go bowling.  

[Shoeless]

On 5/12/2023 at 5:53 PM, sheryl said:

I feel I'm already there as I've been contemplating for at LEAST 5 years!  Just truthful, non-confrontational, non self-righteous dialog that perhaps when you tell someone "I wish so and so would have never married you" to an audience and many other "like" attacks, hopefully B will understand another angle.  B did NOT say this to me re: my dh.  Again, this is B interacting mostly within B's immediate circle but attacks can be showered on others as well.

My experience is no, they won't understand. 

Their behavior isn't a bug; it's a feature. They get something valuable from these interactions. What they get may not be anything you understand, so don't beat yourself up trying to make sense of it. Trying to get them to change their behavior is unlikely to be fruitful because they will see you as the bad guy, trying to take something from them.