homeopathy ingredient and dilution question

[wathe]

If a product contains: Atropa Belladonna 4X 75 mg 4.6X, and Mercurius solubilis 8X 30 mg 9X per dose, how much atropine and mercury is actually in each dose?

I know very little about homeopathy, other than that dilutions often result in super-tiny-so-tiny-as-to-be-meaningless amounts of the listed substance actually in the product.   I also know that X means ten-fold dilution

So 75mg*10^-8.6=2.5*10^-9mg of atropine (or of a plant extract that contains atropine, so even less atropine than that)?

And 30*10^-17mg of mercury?

Meaning almost none?  I hope?  

[Jean in Newcastle]

My understanding is that it’s more the “memory “ of the substance in there than the actual substance. (Doesn’t make sense but that’s how a homeopathic doc explained it to me.). 
 

The belladonna was diluted ten fold and agitated four times. Not sure about the rest of the math. https://www.nelsons.net/en-us/footer/homeopathic-dilution/

[Spy Car]

Homeopathic dilutions are typically so high that there are no molecules of the supposedly active substance left in the mix.

As Jean said, homeopathic practitioners are claiming the water or sugar pill hold a vestigial memory of whatever ingredient is claimed.

Does any of that make a lick of sense? Heck no. It is pure flim-flam.

If homeopath theory held, all water whould such vestigial memories of all the substances it had ever come in contact with.

Don't get scammed. Homeopathy is a hoax and a fraud on the public.

Bill

[maize]

Did someone give this to someone (a child) without your permission? I'm trying to imagine what would prompt the post since OP seems wary of this homeopathic remedy so I'm guessing isn't thinking if choosing it for herself!

In any case, there's not likely any concern. You're right in thinking it is super diluted to the point of being meaningless.

[maize]

I ran your question through gpt4, here is its response:

 

Atropine & Mercury Dosage

Model: GPT-4

If a homeopathic product says it contains: Atropa Belladonna 4X 75 mg 4.6X, and Mercurius solubilis 8X 30 mg 9X per dose, how much atropine and mercury is actually in each dose?

ChatGPT

To determine the amount of atropine and mercury in each dose of the homeopathic product, we need to understand the homeopathic dilution notation. In homeopathy, a "C" or "X" is used to represent dilutions. "C" stands for a 1:100 dilution, and "X" stands for a 1:10 dilution. The number before the "X" indicates the number of times the dilution has been performed.

1. Atropa Belladonna 4X 75 mg 4.6X: Atropa belladonna contains the compound atropine. The product has two dilutions mentioned: 4X and 4.6X. The first dilution is 4X, which means a 1:10 dilution performed 4 times.

To calculate the amount of atropine in the 4X dilution: (1/10)^4 = 1/10,000 Atropine in 4X dilution: 75 mg * (1/10,000) = 0.0075 mg

The second dilution is 4.6X. To approximate this, you can perform a linear interpolation between 4X and 5X:

4X: (1/10)^4 = 1/10,000 5X: (1/10)^5 = 1/100,000

4.6X is 60% of the way between 4X and 5X, so you can calculate the dilution factor as follows:

Dilution factor at 4.6X = 1/10,000 + 0.6 * (1/100,000 - 1/10,000) = 1/16,000

Atropine in 4.6X dilution: 75 mg * (1/16,000) = 0.0046875 mg

2. Mercurius solubilis 8X 30 mg 9X: Mercurius solubilis contains mercury. The first dilution is 8X:

(1/10)^8 = 1/100,000,000 Mercury in 8X dilution: 30 mg * (1/100,000,000) = 0.0003 mg

The second dilution is 9X:

(1/10)^9 = 1/1,000,000,000 Mercury in 9X dilution: 30 mg * (1/1,000,000,000) = 0.00003 mg

In summary, each dose of the homeopathic product contains approximately:

• Atropine: 0.0075 mg (from the 4X dilution) + 0.0046875 mg (from the 4.6X dilution) = 0.0121875 mg
• Mercury: 0.0003 mg (from the 8X dilution) + 0.00003 mg (from the 9X dilution) = 0.00033 mg

What if the dilutions are sequential, meaning that the mercury is diluted 8x and then 9x, and the belladonna 4x and then 4.6x

ChatGPT

If the dilutions are sequential, we would need to calculate the cumulative dilution for each substance.

1. Atropa Belladonna 4X followed by 4.6X: First, we have the 4X dilution: (1/10)^4 = 1/10,000

Then, the dilution factor for 4.6X is calculated as explained previously: Dilution factor at 4.6X = 1/16,000

Now, since the dilutions are sequential, we can multiply the dilution factors: Cumulative dilution factor for Atropa Belladonna = (1/10,000) * (1/16,000) = 1/160,000,000

Atropine content in each dose: 75 mg * (1/160,000,000) = 0.00000046875 mg

2. Mercurius solubilis 8X followed by 9X: First, we have the 8X dilution: (1/10)^8 = 1/100,000,000

Then, the dilution factor for 9X: (1/10)^9 = 1/1,000,000,000

Cumulative dilution factor for Mercurius solubilis = (1/100,000,000) * (1/1,000,000,000) = 1/100,000,000,000,000

Mercury content in each dose: 30 mg * (1/100,000,000,000,000) = 0.0000000003 mg

In summary, if the dilutions are sequential, each dose of the homeopathic product contains approximately:

• Atropine: 0.00000046875 mg
• Mercury: 0.0000000003 mg

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, maize said:

Did someone give this to someone (a child) without your permission? I'm trying to imagine what would prompt the post since OP seems wary of this homeopathic remedy so I'm guessing isn't thinking if choosing it for herself!

In any case, there's not likely any concern. You're right in thinking it is super diluted to the point of being meaningless.

As a nurse, and a person of science, perhaps wathe has encountered an patient who has been talked into using poisons like belladonna and mercury (for crying out loud) as "cures." Hopefully the dilutions are so complete that there are no molecules of things like mercury remaining.

Bill

[Danae]

9 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

As a nurse, and a person of science, perhaps wathe has encountered an patient who has been talked into using poisons like belladonna and mercury (for crying out loud) as "cures." Hopefully the dilutions are so complete that there are no molecules of things like mercury remaining.

Bill

I’m pretty sure wathe is a doctor.

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, Danae said:

I’m pretty sure wathe is a doctor.

If so, I regret my mistake. I suppose she may have encountered a parent who believes they have taken Mercury or Belladonna?

The good news is most homeopathic "medicines" are so diluted that they are mearly sugar pills or plain water.

Bill

Edited May 5, 2023 by Spy Car

[wathe]

Does anyone know if the notation means sequential dilution?  

You all are close with your guesses re circumstances.  @Spy CarI am not considering this for myself!  

I often run  into alt-med substances on med-lists at work that I'm not familiar with.  My jaw just about hit the floor when I read the ingredient list this particular one and saw that it contained mercury and atropine, and wondered just how dilute is dilute (and just how poisonous is this stuff).  I'm not sure if the notation means sequential dilution or something else.

[Jean in Newcastle]

2 minutes ago, wathe said:

Does anyone know if the notation means sequential dilution?  

You all are close with your guesses re circumstances.  @Spy CarI am not considering this for myself!  

I often run  into alt-med substances on med-lists at work that I'm not familiar with.  My jaw just about hit the floor when I read the ingredient list this particular one and saw that it contained mercury and atropine, and wondered just how dilute is dilute (and just how poisonous is this stuff).  I'm not sure if the notation means sequential dilution or something else.

My understanding is that the dilutions are sequential. 

[Spy Car]

21 minutes ago, wathe said:

Does anyone know if the notation means sequential dilution?  

You all are close with your guesses re circumstances.  @Spy CarI am not considering this for myself!  

I often run  into alt-med substances on med-lists at work that I'm not familiar with.  My jaw just about hit the floor when I read the ingredient list this particular one and saw that it contained mercury and atropine, and wondered just how dilute is dilute (and just how poisonous is this stuff).  I'm not sure if the notation means sequential dilution or something else.

I realized after I posted that it was extremely unlikely that you were considering such use, and that you'd likely encountered someone who had. Sorry about the framing of my first post.

There is a name for the degree of dilutions necessary to ensure no original molecules remain (but blanking on the name). The more mathematically inclined can help you figure it out. Generally, I believe, the dilutions are so great with think like mercury that all that remains is "the memory."

Mostly homeopathic "medicine" is just sugar pills or plain water. It is a fraud, but rarely directly dangerous as far as I know.

Bill

 

[gardenmom5]

3 hours ago, wathe said:

If a product contains: Atropa Belladonna 4X 75 mg 4.6X, and Mercurius solubilis 8X 30 mg 9X per dose, how much atropine and mercury is actually in each dose?

I know very little about homeopathy, other than that dilutions often result in super-tiny-so-tiny-as-to-be-meaningless amounts of the listed substance actually in the product.   I also know that X means ten-fold dilution

So 75mg*10^-8.6=2.5*10^-9mg of atropine (or of a plant extract that contains atropine, so even less atropine than that)?

And 30*10^-17mg of mercury?

Meaning almost none?  I hope?  

are you aware high fructose corn syrup contains mercury?   Manufacturers use caustic soda to extract the sugar from corn, and caustic soda contains mercury.
Dudeling did a blood draw after I'd given him some soda (it helped to get him to do the blood draws).  His mercury level was so high his provider was freaking out.   

[Dicentra]

5 hours ago, wathe said:

If a product contains: Atropa Belladonna 4X 75 mg 4.6X, and Mercurius solubilis 8X 30 mg 9X per dose, how much atropine and mercury is actually in each dose?

I know very little about homeopathy, other than that dilutions often result in super-tiny-so-tiny-as-to-be-meaningless amounts of the listed substance actually in the product.   I also know that X means ten-fold dilution

So 75mg*10^-8.6=2.5*10^-9mg of atropine (or of a plant extract that contains atropine, so even less atropine than that)?

And 30*10^-17mg of mercury?

Meaning almost none?  I hope?  

 

2 hours ago, wathe said:

Does anyone know if the notation means sequential dilution?  

You all are close with your guesses re circumstances.  @Spy CarI am not considering this for myself!  

I often run  into alt-med substances on med-lists at work that I'm not familiar with.  My jaw just about hit the floor when I read the ingredient list this particular one and saw that it contained mercury and atropine, and wondered just how dilute is dilute (and just how poisonous is this stuff).  I'm not sure if the notation means sequential dilution or something else.

As a chem teacher, I was ready to do the dilution calculations for you but - the info given makes no sense. 🙂  I googled the amounts and got a pamphlet for a homeopathic(?) remedy for pain relief that comes in tablet, ointment, and injectable form.  I think the amounts you gave are for a 300mg tablet.  This is the chart the pamphlet provided:

If I total the mg amounts listed in the middle column, I get just over 300mg so a whole tablet.  I can't tell if the middle column means that there is actually 75mg of Belladonna per 300mg tablet (which doesn't make any sense if it's homeopathic) or if the 75mg of Belladonna was put into solution and diluted 1 in 10 by four times and 75 mg of the resultant solution was added to the tablet or...?  Pharmacist DH looked at it and says it makes no sense from either a Western medicine viewpoint or a homeopathic veiwpoint - classical homeopathy never deals with mg of anything in the final product and Western medicine doesn't deal with "potencies".  It's like the company has tried to weirdly mix Western and homeopathic ideas and come up with... I don't know what.  He says the fact that the chart references both mg and "potencies" is just weird and wrong.  There is no way of knowing what these tablets actually contain.  The oral LD50 of atropine is 75 mg/kg in mice but, like you said, belladonna isn't pure atropine.  I would think that, at best, it's probably not enough of any of the ingredients to harm a person (but you would be more knowledgeable than I would about that part :))

 

1 hour ago, Spy Car said:

I realized after I posted that it was extremely unlikely that you were considering such use, and that you'd likely encountered someone who had. Sorry about the framing of my first post.

There is a name for the degree of dilutions necessary to ensure no original molecules remain (but blanking on the name). The more mathematically inclined can help you figure it out. Generally, I believe, the dilutions are so great with think like mercury that all that remains is "the memory."

Mostly homeopathic "medicine" is just sugar pills or plain water. It is a fraud, but rarely directly dangerous as far as I know.

Bill

 

It's called the molar limit. 🙂 It's based on a chemical principle where you consider the number of particles (molecules) in a mole of a substance in 1 liter of solution vs the amount the solution has been diluted.  A mole in chemistry is 6.023 x 10^23 particles.  A 1 M (pronounced one molar) solution is a solution where 1 L of the solution contains 1 mole of particles (1M = 1mol/L).  That would mean that 1L of solution contains 6.023x10^23 particles (so 6.023x10^23 molecules/1 L of solution).  If you dilute that liter of solution by a factor of 1:10 24 times (so 24X or 12C), statistically there would be less than 1 molecule of the original substance in the final liter of solution:

6.023x10^23 molecules/1x10^24 L of solution = 0.6023 molecules per L

Since you can't have part of a molecule (and still have it be the same substance as the original substance), this dilution is the limit at which you would still have any chemically "intact" molecules left per liter of solution.  You would either have no molecules left in the liter of solution or, randomly, you might have one or two molecules per liter (balanced out by no molecules in other 1 liter samples).  If you drank a liter of the solution, there would be slightly over a 50/50 chance there would be 1 molecule of the original substance in that liter of solution.  Most homeopathic remedies aim for a much higher dilution rate - statistically, there would be no molecules of the original substance left in the end dilution at dilution rates higher than 24X.  From what I understand, though, the "healing power" comes from the water "remembering" its contact with the original substance and not the presence of the original substance itself.  Because of that, proponents of homeopathy don't seem bothered by the fact that most homeopathic dilutions exceed the molar limit.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Dicentra
Forgot to attach chart

[Spy Car]

31 minutes ago, Dicentra said:

It's called the molar limit. 🙂 It's based on a chemical principle where you consider the number of particles (molecules) in a mole of a substance in 1 liter of solution vs the amount the solution has been diluted.  A mole in chemistry is 6.023 x 10^23 particles.  A 1 M (pronounced one molar) solution is a solution where 1 L of the solution contains 1 mole of particles (1M = 1mol/L).  That would mean that 1L of solution contains 6.023x10^23 particles (so 6.023x10^23 molecules/1 L of solution).  If you dilute that liter of solution by a factor of 1:10 24 times (so 24X or 12C), statistically there would be less than 1 molecule of the original substance in the final liter of solution:

6.023x10^23 molecules/1x10^24 L of solution = 0.6023 molecules per L

Since you can't have part of a molecule (and still have it be the same substance as the original substance), this dilution is the limit at which you would still have any chemically "intact" molecules left per liter of solution.  You would either have no molecules left in the liter of solution or, randomly, you might have one or two molecules per liter (balanced out by no molecules in other 1 liter samples).  If you drank a liter of the solution, there would be slightly over a 50/50 chance there would be 1 molecule of the original substance in that liter of solution.  Most homeopathic remedies aim for a much higher dilution rate - statistically, there would be no molecules of the original substance left in the end dilution at dilution rates higher than 24X.  From what I understand, though, the "healing power" comes from the water "remembering" its contact with the original substance and not the presence of the original substance itself.  Because of that, proponents of homeopathy don't seem bothered by the fact that most homeopathic dilutions exceed the molar limit.

Thank you. It is nice to have people in The Hive who are well-educated in such things, including chemistry teachers such as yourself.

Much appreciated!

Bill

[EKS]

The x in an actual chemistry lab would mean that the substance was whatever was next to the x times more concentrated than the typical strength.  We used to have concentrated solutions that we would then dilute to the strength normally used.  So a 10x stock solution was diluted tenfold to make the normal strength solution.

I don't know anything about homeopathy other than that they seem to think that essentially zero molecules of a substance is actually helpful in some way.

[wathe]

1 hour ago, Dicentra said:

 

As a chem teacher, I was ready to do the dilution calculations for you but - the info given makes no sense. 🙂  I googled the amounts and got a pamphlet for a homeopathic(?) remedy for pain relief that comes in tablet, ointment, and injectable form.  I think the amounts you gave are for a 300mg tablet.  This is the chart the pamphlet provided:

If I total the mg amounts listed in the middle column, I get just over 300mg so a whole tablet.  I can't tell if the middle column means that there is actually 75mg of Belladonna per 300mg tablet (which doesn't make any sense if it's homeopathic) or if the 75mg of Belladonna was put into solution and diluted 1 in 10 by four times and 75 mg of the resultant solution was added to the tablet or...?  Pharmacist DH looked at it and says it makes no sense from either a Western medicine viewpoint or a homeopathic veiwpoint - classical homeopathy never deals with mg of anything in the final product and Western medicine doesn't deal with "potencies".  It's like the company has tried to weirdly mix Western and homeopathic ideas and come up with... I don't know what.  He says the fact that the chart references both mg and "potencies" is just weird and wrong.  There is no way of knowing what these tablets actually contain.  The oral LD50 of atropine is 75 mg/kg in mice but, like you said, belladonna isn't pure atropine.  I would think that, at best, it's probably not enough of any of the ingredients to harm a person (but you would be more knowledgeable than I would about that part :))

 

It's called the molar limit. 🙂 It's based on a chemical principle where you consider the number of particles (molecules) in a mole of a substance in 1 liter of solution vs the amount the solution has been diluted.  A mole in chemistry is 6.023 x 10^23 particles.  A 1 M (pronounced one molar) solution is a solution where 1 L of the solution contains 1 mole of particles (1M = 1mol/L).  That would mean that 1L of solution contains 6.023x10^23 particles (so 6.023x10^23 molecules/1 L of solution).  If you dilute that liter of solution by a factor of 1:10 24 times (so 24X or 12C), statistically there would be less than 1 molecule of the original substance in the final liter of solution:

6.023x10^23 molecules/1x10^24 L of solution = 0.6023 molecules per L

Since you can't have part of a molecule (and still have it be the same substance as the original substance), this dilution is the limit at which you would still have any chemically "intact" molecules left per liter of solution.  You would either have no molecules left in the liter of solution or, randomly, you might have one or two molecules per liter (balanced out by no molecules in other 1 liter samples).  If you drank a liter of the solution, there would be slightly over a 50/50 chance there would be 1 molecule of the original substance in that liter of solution.  Most homeopathic remedies aim for a much higher dilution rate - statistically, there would be no molecules of the original substance left in the end dilution at dilution rates higher than 24X.  From what I understand, though, the "healing power" comes from the water "remembering" its contact with the original substance and not the presence of the original substance itself.  Because of that, proponents of homeopathy don't seem bothered by the fact that most homeopathic dilutions exceed the molar limit.

That table is actually helpfu, thank you.  I think I can see the  logic:  30mg of an 8x mercury product, compounded into a 300mg tablet, makes 9x (bc the 8x mercury product makes up 10% of the final tablet by weight, so the tablet represents a further 10-fold dilution).   75 mg of a 4x belladonna product, compounded into a 300tablet, makes 4.6x (belladonna product comprises 25% of the final tablet by weight).  What you don't get to know is how much mercury is in the original 8x product and how much belladonna is int the 4x product in the first place.  Probably not very much.  I hope.     

Knowing the dilution is only useful if you know what you are starting with!  If starting with pure mercury, the tablet should have 30*10^-9 mg of mercury  per tablet?  30 parts per billion? Maybe?  Not very much, anyway.

 

Edited May 6, 2023 by wathe

[maize]

36 minutes ago, wathe said:

That table is actually helpfu, thank you.  I think I can see the  logic:  30mg of an 8x mercury product, compounded into a 300mg tablet, makes 9x (bc the 8x mercury product makes up 10% of the final tablet by weight, so the tablet represents a further 10-fold dilution).   75 mg of a 4x belladonna product, compounded into a 300tablet, makes 4.6x (belladonna product comprises 25% of the final tablet by weight).  What you don't get to know is how much mercury is in the original 8x product and how much belladonna is int the 4x product in the first place.  Probably not very much.  I hope.    

This makes sense of the numbers as given.

[Dicentra]

56 minutes ago, wathe said:

That table is actually helpfu, thank you.  I think I can see the  logic:  30mg of an 8x mercury product, compounded into a 300mg tablet, makes 9x (bc the 8x mercury product makes up 10% of the final tablet by weight, so the tablet represents a further 10-fold dilution).   75 mg of a 4x belladonna product, compounded into a 300tablet, makes 4.6x (belladonna product comprises 25% of the final tablet by weight).  What you don't get to know is how much mercury is in the original 8x product and how much belladonna is int the 4x product in the first place.  Probably not very much.  I hope.     

Knowing the dilution is only useful if you know what you are starting with!  If starting with pure mercury, the tablet should have 30*10^-9 mg of mercury  per tablet?  30 parts per billion? Maybe?  Not very much, anyway.

 

That's what DH was mostly ranting about - if one doesn't know the original starting amounts, then all the other numbers are meaningless. 🙂

But I think the manufacturer is misunderstanding what dilution means in terms of their "Final Dilution" number if we follow with your calculations.  If I take 30mg of a substance and put it into a 300mg tablet, it's true that the 30mg substance makes up 10% by mass of the tablet but if the person takes the entire tablet, the 30mg of substance isn't being diluted again by being incorporated into the tablet - the person is still getting 30mg of the substance whether they just ingest 30mg of the substance in pure form or whether it's compounded into a larger tablet.  Know what I mean?  So the "Final Dilution" column still doesn't make mathematical/chemical sense to me.  That 30mg of the mercury product or the 75mg of the belladonna product hasn't been diluted further by compounding them into a tablet.  If you compound the 30mg into a 300mg tablet AND then crush the tablet and give the person 30mg of the crushed tablet, that would be another 10-fold dilution.  But taking the whole tablet negates any additional "dilution" factors.  Hope that makes sense!

[wathe]

12 minutes ago, Dicentra said:

That's what DH was mostly ranting about - if one doesn't know the original starting amounts, then all the other numbers are meaningless. 🙂

But I think the manufacturer is misunderstanding what dilution means in terms of their "Final Dilution" number if we follow with your calculations.  If I take 30mg of a substance and put it into a 300mg tablet, it's true that the 30mg substance makes up 10% by mass of the tablet but if the person takes the entire tablet, the 30mg of substance isn't being diluted again by being incorporated into the tablet - the person is still getting 30mg of the substance whether they just ingest 30mg of the substance in pure form or whether it's compounded into a larger tablet.  Know what I mean?  So the "Final Dilution" column still doesn't make mathematical/chemical sense to me.  That 30mg of the mercury product or the 75mg of the belladonna product hasn't been diluted further by compounding them into a tablet.  If you compound the 30mg into a 300mg tablet AND then crush the tablet and give the person 30mg of the crushed tablet, that would be another 10-fold dilution.  But taking the whole tablet negates any additional "dilution" factors.  Hope that makes sense!

Yes!

But least the numbers make some kind of sense to me now.  

I still can't get my head around ingesting mercury intentionally as medicine.