Should a STEM kiddo even do Omnibus (AKA: Am I just questioning it all because it is...February??)

[Ann.without.an.e]

The last 48 hours could be called "The Chapter in Which Ann Questions Everything" or "Is it March Yet?" 

I was thinking I should check my plan for next year which led to me rethinking a lot of things, insert panic that my BABY is about to be high school. Then I managed to calm down and research a bazillion things. I know, I know...I've been homeschooling too long for these sort of shenanigans, right?

We are finishing OB I this year. My plan was OB II for 9th, OB III for 10th and then step into AP or DE classes for the remainder of history. DS actually likes OB pretty good but man, this is a time killer. The reading takes him so much time. I calculate about a 1% chance he'd ever be a history or humanities major. 

Idk y'all Schole's Western History: Enlightenment to Industrial Revolution is looking pretty good right now. But I shouldn't jump ship next year....I need to stay with the plan?

Someone please talk some sense into me. Thank you. 

 

 

 

[Lori D.]

Preface:
JMO -- I think all students, STEM or other, benefit from exposure* to the Humanities and Fine Arts. (Just as I think all students, even if headed towards a non-STEM field, benefit from exposure to the Natural Sciences.) The Humanities help us to understand people and cultures, and the "big ideas" that humans think about/wrestle with. And the Humanities also help us to understand "how we got to where we are," and give us some tools for making ethical decisions. Again, that's JMO. 😉

[* = "exposure" does NOT have to mean rigorous, heavy, intensive, continuous; it means exposure 😉 ]

Thoughts about Omnibus or switching:

1. re: continuing with Omnibus
If you both like Omnibus and want to continue with it -- you can pick and choose your way through it. NO need to do every assignment and read every word of what's on the schedule. (Assuming you're doing this as DIY or self-paced, and not with a class.)

2. What does your DS want to do?
Does he like the idea of doing his History/Humanities as part of a class, with discussion and interactions? Does he prefer doing it at home? Does he like the looks of the Scole class? Does he want to try doing something lighter at home? Does he want to try out something different in the Social Studies area other than History (like: Philosophy, Political Science, Geography, Archeology, Anthropology, Sociology, etc.)? (Because, your decision doesn't have to be either/or with Omnibus/Scole -- MANY ways to go with your Social Studies.)

3. Looking ahead: What is your purpose for AP / DE for History?
Normally AP/DE is to show rigor in the student's field of study -- often STEM. Would that be to "knock out" those Humanity credits in advance of college? If so, just be aware that while that can be a helpful thing -- it also might actually end up making things more difficult for a student going into a rigorous STEM field, as the Humanities requirements for a degree often provide some lighter relief from a heavy math, science, engineering schedule of courses. If however, AP/DE is the best choice for your DS and his future college degree path, both Omnibus and the Scole course will be great prep for the rigor of AP/DE.

4. How does either (or neither) Omnibus/Scole fit overall required credits and time for other interests?
From your previous students, I'm sure you remember that most colleges are only looking for 1 credit = American History + 1 credit of World History, with some also wanting 0.5 credit each of Econ & Gov't. Does your DS want to just get those knocked out and then have more time in his schedule to pursue the STEM courses, or extracurriculars and opportunities, of interest to him as he finishes high school?

5. Is there other Literature he would enjoy more?
As I recall, Omnibus, if you are doing all of it, is 1 credit each for Humanities, Literature, and Theology. Omnibus can be a bit stifling if that's all you do/have time to do for Literature. There are some good titles in Omnibus II, but also some weak or obscure titles. Perhaps substitute for the weaker works if you both want to continue with Omnibus II. Or, if you decide to go with Scole, you can have fun together coming up with a list of Literature to study to go with creating an English credit (as the Scole course is 1 credit of History).

Edited February 15, 2023 by Lori D.

[cintinative]

You have a case of the Februaries. We have all been there!

You could consider reducing the number of books read. The full Omnibus primary and secondary is a lot of reading, and I think it is 2.5 or 3 credits (I can't remember). 

One of the tricky bits for me when I looked at it is that it doesn't include instruction in composition, so that needs to be worked in somehow.  

It's tough because there are a lot of lit/comp classes out there but not many history/lit/comp.

I decided to develop my own history plan, outsource literature (easy class with minimal reading and homework), outsource composition and not include theology in our curriculum (I mean, they get it at church and stuff, but not as part of school).  

I definitely would stick to no more than two years of history in high school followed by govt/econ.  I really regret planning three years of history plus govt/econ for my youngest. I thought he couldn't handle ancients in 8th, and now I am trying to figure out how to reduce next year's schedule down to a semester (I'm having my own Februaries over here.) 

Just remember that most schools are going to look for US history, so if you are going the Western Civ/Great Books route make sure you are covering US history in that. 

I think that OB3 and 6 cover US history, but there is no reason you can't do Western Civ/US history in World Context.

I looked at the reading list for the Schole class. Hopefully they will provide a lot of support. I have read many of these titles. I tried Descartes "for kicks" and couldn't wrap my head around it at all. The philosophy titles can be challenging for sure. 

[cintinative]

9 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

3. Looking ahead: What is your purpose for AP / DE for History?
Normally AP/DE is to show rigor in the student's field of study -- often STEM. Would that be to "knock out" those Humanity credits in advance of college? If so, that might actually end up making things more difficult for a student going into a rigorous STEM field, as the Humanities requirements for a degree often provide some lighter relief from a heavy math, science, engineering schedule of courses. If however, AP/DE is the best choice for your DS and his future college degree path, both Omnibus and the Scole course will be great prep for the rigor of AP/DE.
 

Interestingly, I am finding with my oldest son, who is looking at IT/Computer Science, that the schools he is looking at have very few, if any, humanities course requirements (in the course map for the college major). YMMV totally!  It seems though, that the B.A. Computer Science majors are the ones that pull in the most humanities requirements.  But his main choice school doesn't require any social science at all.   

Edited February 13, 2023 by cintinative

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Interestingly, I am finding with my oldest son, who is looking at IT/Computer Science, that the schools he is looking at have very few, if any, humanities course requirements. YMMV totally!  It seems though, that the B.A. Computer Science majors are the ones that pull in the most humanities requirements.  But his main choice school doesn't require any social science at all.   

That is interesting. The public university here (where DS#1 earned his BS in MechEng a year ago) has about 16 Engineering fields (including Computer Eng.), and all of them take roughly the same coursework in the first 2 years, which requires the following non-core concentration courses:

- 2 courses Writing (Freshman WRT 101 & 102)
- 6 courses Soc. Sci. out of 3 "politically correct" labeled areas*
(* = lol, those labels keeps changing every few years, but in essence it means 2 courses out of a global/cultural perspective, 2 courses out of a diversity perspective, and 2 courses out of a reasoning/intensive writing perspective)

The Engineering students graduate with 128-130 total credits -- compared to most other degree programs at 120-124 total credits.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Lori D.

[cintinative]

5 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

That is interesting. The public university here has about 16 Engineering fields, and all of them take roughly the same coursework in the first 2 years, which includes:
2 courses Writing (Freshman WRT 101 & 102)
6 courses Soc. Sci. out of 3 "politically correct" labeled areas*
(* = lol, those labels keeps changing every few years, but in essence it means 2 courses out of a global/cultural perspective, 2 courses out of a diversity perspective, and 2 courses out of a reasoning/intensive writing perspective)

The Engineering students graduate with 128-130 total credits -- compared to most other degree programs at 120-124 total credits.

I hadn't looked at engineering at this university, or their computer science (since IT was our choice). 

I just looked at one of their engineering degrees and it has two Gen Ed course requirements, one Historical Perspectives (HP), Fine Arts (FA), or Social Sciences (SS) requirement, one Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion (DEI) requirement and one Society, Culture, & Ethics (SCE) requirement. 

I looked at Computer Science at the same school and it was the same deal. Four Gen Eds, plus the social sciences, plus DEI and SCE.  I hadn't looked at computer science at this college.

Go figure. Why would the engineering degree and computer science degree have less STEM courses than the IT degree? Oh well. I understand nothing.  😃

Edited February 13, 2023 by cintinative

[Lori D.]

2 minutes ago, cintinative said:

I just looked at one of their engineering degrees and it has two Gen Ed course requirements, one Historical Perspectives (HP), Fine Arts (FA), or Social Sciences (SS) requirement, one Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion (DEI) requirement and one Society, Culture, & Ethics (SCE) requirement.  Go figure. Why would the engineering class have less STEM courses than the IT degree? Oh well. I understand nothing.  😃

Yes, it looks like every university is different. The Computer Sci. degree also requires a similar number of Soc. Studies courses of various areas -- AND foreign language (2 semesters minimum)!

[Farrar]

Let me be brief.

No.

ETA: Okay, I realized you asked about jumping ship this year as well. Yeah, go ahead and jump. It's 8th grade. No one cares. On the other hand, if he enjoys it and you chose it for a reason, then maybe it's the Februaries and finish it out. Because you shouldn't do it again for 9th. I'm a history major. I'm literally a history teacher. I love history. I think it's super important. WTM'ers do too much history. It's just a time suck for no reason for a STEM kid that doesn't help in admissions much.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Farrar

[Clarita]

2 hours ago, cintinative said:

Go figure. Why would the engineering degree and computer science degree have less STEM courses than the IT degree? Oh well. I understand nothing.  😃

No big deal actually, if your major already require a lot of "STEM" courses to graduate with that major then the college does not also "require" that for your GE. Then that also depends on what classes and categories the college has for "STEM". If I remember correctly I didn't have math as a GE requirement for my BSEE, but I had to take a bunch of Applied Calculus to meet prerequisites for classes needed for graduation with my major. 

[ScoutTN]

For a STEM kid, I would do less and lighter. I’d free up that time and energy for courses that he loves, loves in his primary areas of interest. You can still do excellent English and History without the weight of a great books program. 

[Ann.without.an.e]

17 hours ago, Farrar said:

Let me be brief.

No.

ETA: Okay, I realized you asked about jumping ship this year as well. Yeah, go ahead and jump. It's 8th grade. No one cares. On the other hand, if he enjoys it and you chose it for a reason, then maybe it's the Februaries and finish it out. Because you shouldn't do it again for 9th. I'm a history major. I'm literally a history teacher. I love history. I think it's super important. WTM'ers do too much history. It's just a time suck for no reason for a STEM kid that doesn't help in admissions much.

Thank you. No, I wouldn't jump ship this year. We will finish out OB for this year, sorry that wasn't more clear. When I say jump ship, I was only referring to jumping off the OB ship as a whole after this year and doing something different and not so book heavy since he will not be a humanities major. 

 

19 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Preface:
JMO -- I think all students, STEM or other, benefit from exposure* to the Humanities and Fine Arts. (Just as I think all students, even if headed towards a non-STEM field, benefit from exposure to the Natural Sciences.) The Humanities help us to understand people and cultures, and the "big ideas" that humans think about/wrestle with. And the Humanities also help us to understand "how we got to where we are," and give us some tools for making ethical decisions. Again, that's JMO. 😉

[* = "exposure" does NOT mean rigorous, heavy, intensive, continuous; it means exposure 😉 ]

Thoughts about Omnibus or switching:

1. re: continuing with Omnibus
If you both like Omnibus and want to continue with it -- you can pick and choose your way through it. NO need to do every assignment and read every word of what's on the schedule. (Assuming you're doing this as DIY or self-paced, and not with a class.)

2. What does your DS want to do?
Does he like the idea of doing his History/Humanities as part of a class, with discussion and interactions? Does he prefer doing it at home? Does he like the looks of the Scole class? Does he want to try doing something lighter at home? Does he want to try out something different in the Social Studies area other than History (like: Philosophy, Political Science, Geography, Archeology, Anthropology, Sociology, etc.)? (Because, your decision doesn't have to be either/or with Omnibus/Scole -- MANY ways to go with your Social Studies.)

3. Looking ahead: What is your purpose for AP / DE for History?
Normally AP/DE is to show rigor in the student's field of study -- often STEM. Would that be to "knock out" those Humanity credits in advance of college? If so, just be aware that while that can be a helpful thing -- it also might actually end up making things more difficult for a student going into a rigorous STEM field, as the Humanities requirements for a degree often provide some lighter relief from a heavy math, science, engineering schedule of courses. If however, AP/DE is the best choice for your DS and his future college degree path, both Omnibus and the Scole course will be great prep for the rigor of AP/DE.

4. How does either (or neither) Omnibus/Scole fit overall required credits and time for other interests?
From your previous students, I'm sure you remember that most colleges are only looking for 1 credit = American History + 1 credit of World History, with some also wanting 0.5 credit each of Econ & Gov't. Does your DS want to just get those knocked out and then have more time in his schedule to pursue the STEM courses, or extracurriculars and opportunities, of interest to him as he finishes high school?

5. Is there other Literature he would enjoy more?
As I recall, Omnibus, if you are doing all of it, is 1 credit each for Humanities, Literature, and Theology. Omnibus can be a bit stifling if that's all you do/have time to do for Literature. There are some good titles in Omnibus II, but also some weak or obscure titles. Perhaps substitute for the weaker works if you both want to continue with Omnibus II. Or, if you decide to go with Scole, you can have fun together coming up with a list of Literature to study to go with creating an English credit (as the Scole course is 1 credit of History).

 

DS likes OB overall but does feel like it takes too much of a chunk of his day that he could be using for classes that fit his needs better: Science, Math, Coding, etc. Or even reading more of what he loves to read. He is burned out with reading and finds he doesn't want to read much in his free time. 

He did Veritas self paced 2-6th grade and then we took a break for 7th in order to do American History. If I stick with OB I-III then I was thinking we would do American History and Gov as DE or AP classes so he can skip those in college. DS isn't going to a liberal arts college. He will either follow in his sister's footsteps and go to Duke and they will want to see rigor across the curriculum for admissions (even that might not be enough for admissions) but they will not really accept too many DE/AP credits so he will still be taking humanities courses to an extent (Duke does it completely different than most schools, if anyone wants me to expound then I can) or he will go to a state school and hopes to use DE and AP credits to reduce how many years he is in college (go in with an associates or close to it). 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Ann.without.an.e

[Lori D.]

54 minutes ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

...DS likes OB overall but does feel like it takes too much of a chunk of his day that he could be using for classes that fit his needs better: Science, Math, Coding, etc. Or even reading more of what he loves to read. He is burned out with reading and finds he doesn't want to read much in his free time. 

He did Veritas self paced 2-6th grade and then we took a break for 7th in order to do American History. If I stick with OB I-III then I was thinking we would do American History and Gov as DE or AP classes so he can skip those in college. DS isn't going to a liberal arts college. He will either follow in his sister's footsteps and go to Duke and they will want to see rigor across the curriculum for admissions (even that might not be enough for admissions) but they will not really accept too many DE/AP credits so he will still be taking humanities courses to an extent (Duke does it completely different than most schools, if anyone wants me to expound then I can) or he will go to a state school and hopes to use DE and AP credits to reduce how many years he is in college (go in with an associates or close to it). 

Then it sounds like during high school, you could scale back your Humanities and just knock out a standard set of Social Studies credits for admissions (1 credit each American History and World History, plus 0.5 credit each of Gov't and Econ, and possibly 1 more credit to show rigor -- maybe something different, like Philosophy or Logic).

You could make 1-2 of those required Social Studies credits (American History, or Economics, or Government) AP or DE to show added rigor.
 

You could decouple your Literature/Writing from an integrated English + Humanities + Theology (the Omnibus route), and make your own English (or take online) that allows DS to read some Literature of high interest to HIM, and to focus on making his Writing skills super strong. 

And the Scole class you mentioned above would fill the requirement for 1 credit of World History, and be a nice lead-in to a future American History course. And it looks like it would help develop those thinking/analysis and writing skills (strengths of the Humanities that I mentioned upthread in my original post 😉 ).

[ETA: total side note: my personal preference is to include non-Western global cultures/worldviews at some point as a Social Studies course somewhere in grades 8th-12th grade, and if I only had 1 credit to "spend" on Social Studies (besides the American History, Econ, Gov't credits), I would probably try hard to make it a more global perspective of History, or even better, a Cultural Geography & Comparative Religions/Perspectives type of course. But again, that's just me. 😉 ]

Scaling back the Humanities/Social Studies to what colleges expect for admission  would also allow DS more time and flexibility for making his STEM courses (Math, Science, Coding, etc.) high rigor (AP, DE -- or even DIY to go deep with this interests, and could aid with competitive college admissions at Duke), and allow him the time to get involved in opportunities and extracurriculars that will flesh out his high school experience and make him an interesting and attractive student for college admissions -- esp. the extremely competitive admissions for Duke -- or, it would have given him a good amount of AP/DE towards a state university to help reduce overall time/cost there.

(Especially for that second scenario, look closely at which AP and DE courses are accepted towards the state university's degree program, so those really will transfer and reduce overall time at the school, if that is the goal.)

BEST of luck as you chart your high school course and prep for future college! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 14, 2023 by Lori D.

[Roadrunner]

I have a STEM kid and precisely because he is a STEM kid, we did Great Books at CLRC as his English/history. I knew he might never get this type of education as a STEM student in college, and it’s this sort of learning is why we homeschooled. I regret a lot of things but putting him through CLRC hell isn’t one of them. He came out of it with deep love of literature. He thinks GB was the single most influential and loved sequence from high school. 
So I guess what I am trying to say is what do you want for his education? It’s not all about college admissions. Who cares if it didn’t “shine” for his college apps. I think at the end of the day it’s about education, so the question to ask is what do you value in learning. 
 

[cintinative]

30 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

I have a STEM kid and precisely because he is a STEM kid, we did Great Books at CLRC as his English/history. I knew he might never get this type of education as a STEM student in college, and it’s this sort of learning is why we homeschooled. I regret a lot of things but putting him through CLRC hell isn’t one of them. He came out of it with deep love of literature. He thinks GB was the single most influential and loved sequence from high school. 
So I guess what I am trying to say is what do you want for his education? It’s not all about college admissions. Who cares if it didn’t “shine” for his college apps. I think at the end of the day it’s about education, so the question to ask is what do you value in learning. 
 

This was good for me to hear. Thank you.

But CLRC hell? That sounds like a story.  😃

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, cintinative said:

This was good for me to hear. Thank you.

But CLRC hell? That sounds like a story.  😃

It’s intense. 🤣 The reading and writing load weekly is something. Turscak is amazing though. Very grateful to her and to CLRC. 

[Momto6inIN]

I would first and foremost listen to your kid and let them decide what they want high school to look like. After that I would listen to Lori D 🙂

My STEM kid was able to knock out all his humanities through either AP (during high school) or CLEP (he figured out which ones he needed to graduate and self studied and took those tests at the univeristy). He enjoyed literature and history to an extent but did not want to waste his college dollars on those courses, he wanted to take more math.

We did interesting history and lit during high school of his choosing, but it did not take over his day and it was probably not rigorous. We left lots of room for the stuff he *did* want to focus on.

[Ann.without.an.e]

On 2/13/2023 at 8:37 PM, Farrar said:

Let me be brief.

No.

ETA: Okay, I realized you asked about jumping ship this year as well. Yeah, go ahead and jump. It's 8th grade. No one cares. On the other hand, if he enjoys it and you chose it for a reason, then maybe it's the Februaries and finish it out. Because you shouldn't do it again for 9th. I'm a history major. I'm literally a history teacher. I love history. I think it's super important. WTM'ers do too much history. It's just a time suck for no reason for a STEM kid that doesn't help in admissions much.

Can I ask your opinion. Should we do something like Schole? I think it is lighter but please someone correct me if I’m wrong.  Or is that still too much history? Would it be better to do our own thing?

[Farrar]

2 hours ago, Ann.without.an.e said:

Can I ask your opinion. Should we do something like Schole? I think it is lighter but please someone correct me if I’m wrong.  Or is that still too much history? Would it be better to do our own thing?

I honestly don't know the Schole class's vibe and feel well. I do know that I think that resources list is a good bit for a single credit history class for a kid who isn't into history. It's definitely lighter than many of the other options out there in classical Christian history though. But you have to take my own perspective with a grain of salt here. I'm secular in my history worldview. I didn't have imparting that worldview as a core value. If you do, but don't want to be as all in, then Schole feels like a good middle of the road option in some ways. If you actually don't have that as a core goal though, then yeah, do your own thing. Get a textbook you like and go through it and call it done. Or just use dual enrollment history. It'll be easier and your kid will get more out of it in college admissions.

[blue plaid]

Obviously you should do whatever you decide you want to do.  Personally I concluded that there were too many great books that were not Great Books that I'd prefer my kids to read.  And to choose Great Books is to choose not to do other great books because we are all finite 🙂.   I understand the attraction of Great Books -- one thing one of mine did end up doing was a couple of units from Wes Callihan's Old Western Culture (he did Greek Philosophers, and the Medieval Mind.) For him the units were half-credit electives.   I think he is glad he did it, but after 2 units he did not want to continue.  (He is more interested in programming, game design, and music so is taking courses in these areas instead.)

[Ann.without.an.e]

3 hours ago, blue plaid said:

Personally I concluded that there were too many great books that were not Great Books that I'd prefer my kids to read.  

 

So true 🙂