Senior year science: WWYD?

[kokotg]

I guess I'm doomed to show up here every few years asking what to do about high school science because my plans to outsource science never work out the way they're supposed to! 

Background: 11th grade DS was supposed to be taking DE physics next year, but owing to extreme frustration with the university's placement test system (basically, he needs their pre-calc to take their physics. He has the SAT math score (from a full year ago) and GPA to place into pre-calc, but they won't take his homeschool GPA, and the placement test has been nothing but a giant obnoxious time suck that I think we're giving up on now). So! He'll do pre-calc at home next semester instead with his math teacher dad and do AB calc next year (also at home). But now I need a new science plan.

Science so far: biology at home in 9th grade (Pandia press, so nothing very rigorous, but he made a very pretty model of a cell 🙂), WTMA chemistry and lab in 10th grade, and this year he's taking weather and climate DE at local university (it's listed as geography in the course catalog, but our state lists it as a dual enrollment science course for high schoolers). All the classes had labs. 

Not a STEM kid--likely a humanities major of some sort in his future. But he will likely be applying to some very selective schools, which are generally our best option financially. 

Next year: he should take physics, right? But what physics? His brother did AP Physics 1 using materials from physics-prep, and that was...fine. I think he'd be able to handle it fine, but he definitely wouldn't love it, and I don't know that he'd get a ton out of it (I don't care much about credit transferring; he's mostly looking at LACs with very vague requirements; he's likely both to have more credit than wherever he ends up will accept AND not to need to take science...or at least not any particular science). I think he'd be miserable trying to do Physics 1 and 2 in one year, so probably not that. There's the PA Homeschoolers Physics 1 that's the same material as physics-prep...but it doesn't look like there's that much of a live component to it, so I'm not sure it's worth the extra $600 (generally speaking, he prefers a live class to asynchronous).  I'm also eyeing the WTMA Physics because the chemistry was a good experience for him (and seemed to be geared well for a humanities kid; there was plenty of math, but he also wrote 2 research papers and seemed to learn a ton about the history of chemistry/famous scientists/etc). But I'm also thinking it would be more work (again, based on his chem experience), and it's not AP, so I worry that work he'd put in wouldn't be as recognized for college admission purposes and that perhaps the time would be better spent on subjects he's more interested in. 

Thoughts?

[BusyMom5]

He doesn't have to take physics- what interests him?  Environmental Science?  Astronomy?  A more specific biology- zoology, botany?  A&P?  

[kokotg]

20 minutes ago, BusyMom5 said:

He doesn't have to take physics- what interests him?  Environmental Science?  Astronomy?  A more specific biology- zoology, botany?  A&P?  

physics or physical science is a graduation requirement for admission to our state university system, so I'm not comfortable forgoing it altogether (he's not likely to end up at a public in-state, but I definitely don't want to close off that possibility). 

[kokotg]

I just checked and Georgia Tech gives transfer credit as a lab science for his weather and climate class, so that reassures me a little and makes me a little less worried about doing the wrong thing next year. Not that he's going to Tech, but I sometimes use that as shorthand to figure out whether colleges will consider something a "real" science class (they don't give any credit for the algebra based physics he was going to take DE next year).

[lmrich]

He could take Derek Owens Physics.

If GA Tech  is your benchmark, what other DE science do they accept that your son could take? Or better question, what science would the college of your son's choice take as a transfer? 

[kokotg]

2 minutes ago, lmrich said:

He could take Derek Owens Physics.

If GA Tech  is your benchmark, what other DE science do they accept that your son could take? Or better question, what science would the college of your son's choice take as a transfer? 

I was just looking at Derek Owens...do you have personal experience with it? I know it's generally well regarded.

GA tech isn't really my benchmark so much as what I looked at to try to get an idea of how valuable the DE class he's taking currently is--from an admissions standpoint more than a transfer standpoint--I'm just assuming that they think of it as a serious science class if they'll give credit for it, if that makes sense (although it would be nice if it would transfer anywhere where he'd otherwise have to take a science class...since he'd rather not). There's really no way to tell in advance what will transfer for most schools he's looking it...IME they evaluate them individually in most cases. But, again, I'm more looking at admissions than credit (which I probably sent mixed signals about by talking about tech transfer equivalency!)

 

[Eos]

Is there no other DE option for a live class locally?

[kokotg]

3 minutes ago, Eos said:

Is there no other DE option for a live class locally?

Probably? He could do the tech college that's closer to us (I haven't looked into their prerequisites, but I'd guess they're less onerous than the university ones), but I don't want to deal with DE at two different schools. But that's a possibility.

[Malam]

6 hours ago, kokotg said:

(basically, he needs their pre-calc to take their physics. He has the SAT math score (from a full year ago) and GPA to place into pre-calc, but they won't take his homeschool GPA, and the placement test has been nothing but a giant obnoxious time suck that I think we're giving up on now).

it's not AP, so I worry that work he'd put in wouldn't be as recognized for college admission purposes and that perhaps the time would be better spent on subjects he's more interested in.

As far as placement woes, did you try the precalculus or College Algebra CLEP exam?

Most selective universities don't give physics credit for algebra-based physics, AP or otherwise. Non-AP classes are definitely recognized.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Malam

[kokotg]

8 hours ago, Malam said:

As far as placement woes, did you try the precalculus or College Algebra CLEP exam?

Most selective universities don't give physics credit for algebra-based physics, AP or otherwise. Non-AP classes are definitely recognized.

the college where he does DE will only accept this one option for placement...at least for my homeschooled kid. He's already devoted hours of his life to it and then he didn't pass the proctored pre-calc placement test after the practice test recommended him for calculus, not even pre-calc. He could take it again, but he is super frustrated and I'm annoyed and pretty much done with it because he can take physics elsewhere. 

I didn't mean that colleges literally wouldn't recognize a non-AP physics as a legitimate class...just that they know what they're getting with an AP or DE class, whereas they'll know nothing about a random outside provider...even if _I_ know it was a more demanding class than Physics 1. So I'm finding myself in a sort of weird position of choosing between a box checking physics or one he'd likely get more out of, but in this case the box checker is the AP option. 

[kokotg]

9 hours ago, kokotg said:

Probably? He could do the tech college that's closer to us (I haven't looked into their prerequisites, but I'd guess they're less onerous than the university ones), but I don't want to deal with DE at two different schools. But that's a possibility.

Just checked and the tech school lists their pre-calc as a prerequisite for physics, too (along with their English 1101?!), so it looks like we'd run into the same issues there. 

[EKS]

Does it have to be AP or college level?  My older son was well served by Derek Owens physics course.

[kokotg]

40 minutes ago, EKS said:

Does it have to be AP or college level?  My older son was well served by Derek Owens physics course.

No, it definitely doesn't have to. That's one of the possibilities. But the online classes are asynchronous, yes? If he's doing an asynchronous class I wonder if he might as well do the physics-prep AP physics 1. Like--all things being equal (as in, he won't like it much because he doesn't like science in general AND he doesn't like asynchronous classes), he might as well take the AP. He's very unlikely to take more physics in college, so it doesn't need to be preparing him for anything later. He might at least grudgingly appreciate a good in person or live online class. 

[EKS]

8 minutes ago, kokotg said:

He might at least grudgingly appreciate a good in person or live online class. 

I don't know if he'd appreciate DO, but I did, and my children did.

[kokotg]

52 minutes ago, EKS said:

I don't know if he'd appreciate DO, but I did, and my children did.

It's no slight against DO; he just doesn't like asynchronous classes. 

[stripe]

I don’t know why a college wouldn’t count a normal high school level physics class as acceptable in admissions, especially for a humanities major, but I confess to not being knowledgeable about these things. I took algebra based physics in high school (as an elective). There was no AP or other version. But maybe now expectations are that someone finished a PhD during high school.

Anyway I highly recommend board member Jetta’s live classes. https://www.clovercreekscience.com/physics/ 

It is one of the best classes my kids took, and she is wonderful. It is a thorough class that covers all the typical material. (And it was loads better than the class I took in school, about which I remember almost nothing.)

Edited October 21, 2022 by stripe

[kokotg]

On 10/21/2022 at 3:43 PM, stripe said:

I don’t know why a college wouldn’t count a normal high school level physics class as acceptable in admissions, especially for a humanities major, but I confess to not being knowledgeable about these things. I took algebra based physics in high school (as an elective). There was no AP or other version. But maybe now expectations are that someone finished a PhD during high school.

Anyway I highly recommend board member Jetta’s live classes. https://www.clovercreekscience.com/physics/ 

It is one of the best classes my kids took, and she is wonderful. It is a thorough class that covers all the typical material. (And it was loads better than the class I took in school, about which I remember almost nothing.)

Thanks for the recommendation! I looked at it and it says 1 optional live session per week...did it seem like most students actually showed up and participated for the live session? 

Re: colleges....I didn't mean to say that colleges would look at a non-AP physics by an outside provider and say, "well, that's not a REAL physics class!" just that AP and DE is one of the things selective colleges value in admissions, whether I like it or not. So, you know...on one hand I want to find the best physics class for him that I can find, and on the other hand I wonder if he should take the online AP option that I suspect he could handle fine and do with a reasonable time commitment vs. a live class that he might get more out of but also put a lot more time into...particularly given that he's extremely unlikely to wind up in a STEM field no matter how great his physics class is. Time he doesn't spend on science is time he can spend on classes and activities he's more interested in. Like...I'm kind of trying to figure out the best of a few different imperfect options. Self paces physics-prep also has the not insignificant advantage of being hundreds of dollars cheaper than most online options. 

I also might be completely misjudging the situation and he might have a much tougher time with physics-prep than his brother did, and I'd be kicking myself for not making sure he had a real teacher who could answer questions. 

[8filltheheart]

On 10/18/2022 at 6:52 PM, kokotg said:

physics or physical science is a graduation requirement for admission to our state university system, so I'm not comfortable forgoing it altogether (he's not likely to end up at a public in-state, but I definitely don't want to close off that possibility). 

Did he take chemistry? That is a physical science and would satisfy that requirement. So would astronomy, geology, meteorology and oceanography. He has lots of options beyond physics.

[stripe]

3 hours ago, kokotg said:

Thanks for the recommendation! I looked at it and it says 1 optional live session per week...did it seem like most students actually showed up and participated for the live session? 

It seemed lively to me. Jetta is very friendly and seems approachable, and the students participate via chat. It is not dry. I think most students attend. 

[kokotg]

1 minute ago, 8filltheheart said:

Did he take chemistry? That is a physical science and would satisfy that requirement. So would astronomy, geology, meteorology and oceanography. He has lots of options beyond physics.

He did, but the way it's worded in the "freshman admission requirements" document is: 

Quote

T he 4 science units should include two courses with a laboratory component. Georgia public high school students should have at least one unit of biology, one unit of physical science or physics, one unit of chemistry,earthsystems,environmentalscience,oranadvanced placement course, and a 4th science.

I know it says "public high school students" but then it also says "Consideration is also given to similar courses for students attending private or out-of-state high schools." I'm assuming they would lump homeschoolers in with private and out of state schools and want to see "similar courses." I mean, maybe not, but I wouldn't be surprised if at least some of the schools he's applying to want to see a physics class on his transcript. And there's not really any other science he's itching to take anyway, so he might as well take physics.

[kokotg]

I just found out that a teacher I love at our homeschool coop will be offering a "physics through astronomy" class next year. I think that might be our winner...taking something in person with a teacher I know is great and kids he already knows is probably going to trump anything online. It might be a little light, but we can add in some Great Courses lectures to round out the credit.