Hive Veterinarians - ??

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Does anyone have experience or advice for someone (me) whose young dog (17 months) is being tested for EPI?

As with many other things, I have spent hours perusing the internet (PetMD, EPIdogs forum) reading what I can.  

It looks like EPI is treatable and EPI dogs can live long lives. The before and after pictures are encouraging.

It's only been a month since my 15 yo dog passed away and now this. My puppy has always been a hard keeper and I have expressed concern to the vet for months. It was only after I switched vets, and at the first appt with the new vet, that I was finally listened to about the diarrhea, belching, flatulence, wasted food, and failure to thrive (which is freaking obvious since you can feel his ribs and spine). The previous vet diagnosed him with anxiety and put him on anxiety meds. The new vet dc'd the anxiety medication and put him on steroids, an antibiotic, and a probiotic.  As soon as the puppy finishes the two week treatment, he'll be tested for EPI.

My puppy is not a GSD but is a shepherd. EPI is rare in his breed but not unheard of and EPI matches all of his symptoms.

 

[ktgrok]

I only knew one dog with this, but he did very well on the enzyme supplements. Just had to keep up with it, you know? 

Other thoughts are parasites, chronic giardia, etc etc. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

They are running the standard fecal and blood labs. So far everything has been within normal limits or negative.  The new vet says if it is bacterial or a biome issue, the antibiotic, steroids, and probiotic should take care of it and he should start to gain weight and his stool should normalize.  A week in, there is no change. We go back on Monday for a weight check.

I know part of it is residual mourning from losing my other dog a few weeks ago but all I want to do is cry. I knew there was something going on and tried to ask the vet but I wasn't assertive and let it slide as I dealt with the illness of my other dog and work. I should have switched vets sooner.

[Pawz4me]

I know of one dog and one person with EPI. Both do well on supplemental enzymes.

[Selkie]

Has IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) been considered as a possibility? One of my dogs has IBD and his symptoms were similar to what you're describing. 

[Indigo Blue]

My son has a cat with those symptoms. Parasites were ruled out, then she was on steroids for awhile. What finally helped was probiotics. She was finally diagnosed with cat IBS/IBD.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

22 hours ago, Selkie said:

Has IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) been considered as a possibility? One of my dogs has IBD and his symptoms were similar to what you're describing. 

Not that has been mentioned. I am taking him to the city for a second opinion. I will make certain to inquire about IBD (which I will research today).

[Granny_Weatherwax]

23 hours ago, Selkie said:

Has IBD (Inflammatory Bowel Disease) been considered as a possibility? One of my dogs has IBD and his symptoms were similar to what you're describing. 

Looked it up. I think IBD is what they are treating for at the moment without having done the endoscopy or biopsy. The vet has prescribed the three medications most commonly used to treat IBD. We are on day 8 of the regimen so we have a while to go before the two week period is up. We will be finished with the medication by the time of the second opinion in the city. I hope we see some progress and weight gain by then.

[Selkie]

9 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Looked it up. I think IBD is what they are treating for at the moment without having done the endoscopy or biopsy. The vet has prescribed the three medications most commonly used to treat IBD. We are on day 8 of the regimen so we have a while to go before the two week period is up. We will be finished with the medication by the time of the second opinion in the city. I hope we see some progress and weight gain by then.

Our dog isn't on any meds for IBD, but he's on a hydrolyzed protein (HP) food that has truly been a miracle for him.

We had trouble getting him diagnosed. The first vet we saw never mentioned IBD. She just kept wanting to try antibiotics over and over, and seemed stumped as to what was wrong and why he wasn't improving. 

In frustration, I wrote up a timeline of his symptoms and the medications that had been tried. I sent it to the senior vet at the practice and asked his opinion. He took one look at the list and said, "This sounds like IBD. Let's try him on an HP food and see if he improves".

After the first day of the HP food, the diarrhea stopped. A few weeks later, he was back up to a healthy weight, his coat was shiny again, and he was happy and healthy.

Good luck at the vet. I know how frustrating it is when something is wrong and you're not getting answers. I hope that whatever he ends up being diagnosed with is something easy to treat.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Quick update just because...
he has finished his antibiotic and steroid and has been put on a no grain diet and...

he is eating, gaining weight, and his stools are normalizing! I am cautiously optimistic. He has never been this regular with meals or stool. He is eating both the refrigerated loaf food and the dry kibble. His consumption is 2-3X what it had been and I haven't had to throw away any food in days.

The past few days he has been energetic and more puppylike. He has been such a joy.

The EPI test is scheduled for the 25th and I am anticipating the visit to see how much weight he has gained. I have decided to do the test even though he is responding to current treatment. Part of me thinks this upswing might be due, in large part, to the steroids and I wonder if things will drop off once those have been metabolized.

For today, I am planning on taking him for a long-ish hike.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

I guess I should also add I have been spending a lot of time on two EPI forums and that is where I got the info for the grain free diet.

I hope it's not EPI as the stories about the drain on resources (time and money) are a bit overwhelming.

[stephanier.1765]

2 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Quick update just because...
he has finished his antibiotic and steroid and has been put on a no grain diet and...

he is eating, gaining weight, and his stools are normalizing! I am cautiously optimistic. He has never been this regular with meals or stool. He is eating both the refrigerated loaf food and the dry kibble. His consumption is 2-3X what it had been and I haven't had to throw away any food in days.

The past few days he has been energetic and more puppylike. He has been such a joy.

The EPI test is scheduled for the 25th and I am anticipating the visit to see how much weight he has gained. I have decided to do the test even though he is responding to current treatment. Part of me thinks this upswing might be due, in large part, to the steroids and I wonder if things will drop off once those have been metabolized.

For today, I am planning on taking him for a long-ish hike.

I am so happy to read he is doing better. Yay! I too would do the test. It'll give you peace of mind knowing you are on the right path of treatment. Have a wonderful time today! 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

We had a wonderful second opinion appt in the City. This vet was wonderful. He and his assistant spent 90 mins with me going over my pup's history, the progression of symptoms, etc, including the loss of my senior dog 6 weeks ago and the subsequent weight loss for the pup. It was wonderful to have my concerns acknowledged and told something other than I wasn't feeding him correctly.

The new vet agrees with the possibility of EPI and thinks it should have been tested for months ago. They pup is 15-25 pounds underweight; pup's dad is 70 pounds, pup is currently 45. 60 pounds was his predicted weight.

The new food he is on has helped with the diarrhea. He now has almost regular stool. I went with a limited ingredient grain free kibble and a grain free prepared loaf. The store did a short sale on the loaf so I got them at half price.

Even though his stool is normalizing, he lost -2 pounds in the weeks since we were at the other vet. I have decreased the length and frequency of our walks, increased his food (free feed kibble, 1.5# of loaf daily), and he was on steroids but he still lost weight. It is frustrating.

What made my day was that the vet (not his assistant) called me that evening to see how I was doing and to discuss EPI a bit more and to encourage me. He apologized for the other vet's dismissal of my concerns and about losing my other dog. He was so kind and thoughtful.
 

[ktgrok]

5 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

We had a wonderful second opinion appt in the City. This vet was wonderful. He and his assistant spent 90 mins with me going over my pup's history, the progression of symptoms, etc, including the loss of my senior dog 6 weeks ago and the subsequent weight loss for the pup. It was wonderful to have my concerns acknowledged and told something other than I wasn't feeding him correctly.

The new vet agrees with the possibility of EPI and thinks it should have been tested for months ago. They pup is 15-25 pounds underweight; pup's dad is 70 pounds, pup is currently 45. 60 pounds was his predicted weight.

The new food he is on has helped with the diarrhea. He now has almost regular stool. I went with a limited ingredient grain free kibble and a grain free prepared loaf. The store did a short sale on the loaf so I got them at half price.

Even though his stool is normalizing, he lost -2 pounds in the weeks since we were at the other vet. I have decreased the length and frequency of our walks, increased his food (free feed kibble, 1.5# of loaf daily), and he was on steroids but he still lost weight. It is frustrating.

What made my day was that the vet (not his assistant) called me that evening to see how I was doing and to discuss EPI a bit more and to encourage me. He apologized for the other vet's dismissal of my concerns and about losing my other dog. He was so kind and thoughtful.
 

Wow, with eating that, not having bad diarrhea or vomiting, but losing weight - that's a giant red flag for EPI or something similar. You are very right to be getting a second opinion! Poor puppy!

[KSera]

7 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

What made my day was that the vet (not his assistant) called me that evening to see how I was doing and to discuss EPI a bit more and to encourage me. He apologized for the other vet's dismissal of my concerns and about losing my other dog. He was so kind and thoughtful.

I’m so glad you have found a good vet. That makes all the difference. I hope they get to the bottom of it quickly and your dog responds well to treatment. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Today is test day. Having him fast for 14 hours seems so counterproductive and my heart aches for him. I can hear his tummy rumble and he looks so sad. I thought he had passed away during the night as he never woke me up to go outside. I lay in bed telling myself to get up and go look for him, that I could handle it. Luckily, he is still alive but so forlorn looking.

DH and I took him to the lake yesterday for a boat ride (riding got him outside but limited the amount of energy he would expend). He did so well. At the end he jumped off the dock and took his first swim. He wasn't thrilled but he swam. I, on the other hand, broke out in tears (I am so emotional anymore - I blame it on menopause) when I saw how skinny he is. He's nothing but bones under his fluffy coat. I admit to feeling a bit of rage last night; why didn't the vet believe me when I would tell him the dog wasn't eating properly or about the blood in the stool or the diarrhea?

At least we are going to the vet who listens today. We leave in 20 mins. By Friday, we'll have a diagnosis. 

[Pawz4me]

I hope you get some helpful answers!

[ktgrok]

fingers crossed!

Once the test is done, can they go ahead and start him on some digestive enzymes, while waiting for results? Even OTC ones if need be?

[Selkie]

Sending lots of well wishes for your pup! I’m glad you found a vet who is caring and helpful.

[stephanier.1765]

I'll be thinking of you guys and hoping for good answers and a good outcome for your baby. Please update us if you get a chance.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

We're back home. Test will be overnighted today and we should hear something by Friday if all goes well. There are only 3 labs in the country that run these tests. This vet works with the lab in Texas; this lab is the flag ship lab for canine EPI.

The vet has recommended OTC enzymes and I mistakenly believed our Walmart would have them. I wish I would have stopped in the City at the larger Walmart or The Vitamin Shoppe. Now I have to either drive back to the City or wait to order them online. It's what I get for being optimistic about my town's resources. I was also emotional (my modus operandi) about his weight this morning, there is no change so the grain free diet isn't helping other than to keep the diarrhea at bay. I was praying for at least .5 pound gain. I know I should be happy he didn't lose any but I was truly hoping for a slight gain since the diarrhea has decreased. I was also rushing to get back home for a meeting at 11am and didn't want to dilly dally an hour from home with the dog in the car. 

Just breathe and relax.

I'll pull up my big girl pants. do some research, and figure out how to get the enzymes today.

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

EPI tests results are in and all are normal or negative.

This means I no longer have to worry about the enzymes (which I did go pick up and used for three meals).

We are now moving on to the tests for Addison's. We have to wait a bit while the Prednisone metabolizes out of his system. In the meantime, the vet has ordered a CBC including thyroid (T4) and a Biome test.

He is slipping back into anorexia and I am finding myself pleading with him to eat and throwing food away. He also had loose stool this morning. Which tells me the Prednisone was helping him and he probably needs a regular prescription. Daily Prednisone is a treatment for Addison's.

I had to tell DGD that he will not be ready to show this year in 4H. DGD really wanted to show him but I had to place the dog's best interest over her desires. If we can get him through this and he gains weight, she can show him next year. I offered to help DGD do research on EPI or Addison's and help her with a static display for the 4H show. I told her we could make all kinds of poop examples out of Sculpy clay. She's sad because she thinks he's going to be put to sleep like my other dog. I keep telling her the new vet is doing his best but it's difficult for her to understand that he's sick but we don't know why. Heck, I don't even understand it yet.

The sadness regarding the pup, dealing with DGD's disappointment/concern, mourning the loss of my other dog (almost two months now)...it's been an emotional week.


 

[ktgrok]

Ugh, poor puppy! Try to tempt him with small amounts frequently - with poor eaters and high metabolizers sometimes that can help. And although ideally he needs to be on his special diet, obviously at some point fed is the biggest thing. Plain chicken, chicken soup, even deli meat will sometimes tempt them. Hugs. 

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

EPI tests results are in and all are normal or negative.

This means I no longer have to worry about the enzymes (which I did go pick up and used for three meals).

We are now moving on to the tests for Addison's. We have to wait a bit while the Prednisone metabolizes out of his system. In the meantime, the vet has ordered a CBC including thyroid (T4) and a Biome test.

He is slipping back into anorexia and I am finding myself pleading with him to eat and throwing food away. He also had loose stool this morning. Which tells me the Prednisone was helping him and he probably needs a regular prescription. Daily Prednisone is a treatment for Addison's.

I had to tell DGD that he will not be ready to show this year in 4H. DGD really wanted to show him but I had to place the dog's best interest over her desires. If we can get him through this and he gains weight, she can show him next year. I offered to help DGD do research on EPI or Addison's and help her with a static display for the 4H show. I told her we could make all kinds of poop examples out of Sculpy clay. She's sad because she thinks he's going to be put to sleep like my other dog. I keep telling her the new vet is doing his best but it's difficult for her to understand that he's sick but we don't know why. Heck, I don't even understand it yet.

The sadness regarding the pup, dealing with DGD's disappointment/concern, mourning the loss of my other dog (almost two months now)...it's been an emotional week.


 

Would you consider cutting out all the sugars/starches and plant proteins that are ubiquitous in commercial diets (and not "natural" for canines) and replacing it with a balanced natural raw diet that mimics what dogs evolved to thrive on for eons?

I've seen the benefits of raw feeding with my own dog over 8 years and similar results with dogs owned by other raw feeders. 

With such wasting, failure to thrive, and ongoing diarrhea I'd be inclined to make a big shift.

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

The good news, if it is Addisons, and man, it certainly fits Addisons really well, is that dogs do very well on the proper medication. The bad news is I don't remember the injection being cheap, (but could be wrong), and I know timing was important. But you are on the ball, and would get him in for the injections at the proper interval, I'm sure. 

Just watch him until he's ready for the testing, as going off steroids can make Addison's worse, if he gets very weak don't hesitate to rush him to the vet. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car - I have been moving in that direction. He is currently on a grain free refrigerated loaf and he had been eating regular meals with it and his stool normalized.  The vet has told me to not switch anything until after we can get the Addison's and biome tests completed.

I have been researching a raw diet but, honestly, I am burning out. This dog is so needy and, after having spent two years making special food for my elderly dog who just passed away, I don't know if I want to go through it all again with a dog I haven't fully bonded with. There has been little joy with him. It's an obligation and a chore.

I know that makes me sound like an ogre but ... well, it was one thing caring for my companion of many years, a dog with whom I had a history, shared adventures, and a deep bond. This dog just drives me crazy with his behaviors and vet bills. And we still haven't addressed the cryptorchid and the necessary surgery to neuter him. The testicle cannot be palpated so the vet says a more invasive surgery will be needed to do the neuter. Of course  it does. Nothing with this dog has been easy.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

4 hours ago, ktgrok said:

The good news, if it is Addisons, and man, it certainly fits Addisons really well, is that dogs do very well on the proper medication. The bad news is I don't remember the injection being cheap, (but could be wrong), and I know timing was important. But you are on the ball, and would get him in for the injections at the proper interval, I'm sure. 

Just watch him until he's ready for the testing, as going off steroids can make Addison's worse, if he gets very weak don't hesitate to rush him to the vet. 

I called the vet to inform him of the loss of appetite and loose stool. We're going to the city tomorrow for another visit and the CBC and stool test. My plans are now cancelled.

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I have been moving in that direction. He is currently on a grain free refrigerated loaf and he had been eating regular meals with it and his stool normalized.  The vet has told me to not switch anything until after we can get the Addison's and biome tests completed.

I have been researching a raw diet but, honestly, I am burning out. This dog is so needy and, after having spent two years making special food for my elderly dog who just passed away, I don't know if I want to go through it all again with a dog I haven't fully bonded with. There has been little joy with him. It's an obligation and a chore.

I know that makes me sound like an ogre but ... well, it was one thing caring for my companion of many years, a dog with whom I had a history, shared adventures, and a deep bond. This dog just drives me crazy with his behaviors and vet bills. And we still haven't addressed the cryptorchid and the necessary surgery to neuter him. The testicle cannot be palpated so the vet says a more invasive surgery will be needed to do the neuter. Of course  it does. Nothing with this dog has been easy.

I looked at Addison's Disease symptoms and they certainly overlap. Hopefully your vet gets to the bottom of this.

Some dogs really struggle to digest carbohydrates and that also presents similar symptoms. "Grain free" formulas very often replace grain with other forms of carbohydrates, so I wanted to mention it.

Sorry you've had such a trial.

Bill 

 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car - I appreciate it. Raw is being considered. I have tried to give him some raw foods but he just walks away. I need to figure out why he refuses to eat before beginning a new feeding regimen, don't you think?

I have tried so many different options. They might work for a couple of days and then he'll stop eating. His current food is VitaFresh Chicken, spinach, blueberry. He ate that well for about two weeks and now he just walks away.

I did entice him to eat a couple of raw hot dogs last night. I know they aren't the best dog food but at least I got him to eat about 200 calories yesterday.

Please don't quote the following~

What I really need is someone willing to have the difficult but honest conversations with me. How much emotional and financial investment does a person put into a dog? I know it's a personal decision based on individual circumstances but I don't know when to say enough is enough. He's not fun. He was supposed to be my adventure companion. There hasn't been any camping, few hikes, and limited walks. If he doesn't eat, he doesn't have any energy or he's grumpy and barks at other dogs. People in the neighborhood are upset with us because of his cowpie poops that are difficult to scoop into a doggy bag and we leave traces wherever he poops. I do my best but trying to scoop liquid stool isn't easy. 

He's been through three different obedience classes (he is quite intelligent and learns commands and tricks easily) and has been socialized. He has a canine best friend. However, he is so reactive when on leash, it's disheartening. He's passed Star Puppy but can't pass Canine Good Citizen due to reactivity. Without passing CGC, I can't progress to agility; not that he has energy for agility at the moment.

I've had him assessed for aggression. No one believes he is aggressive. Reactive, yes. Aggressive, no.

So I wonder (mostly thinking out loud here) -

Do I set a time limit? If we can't figure it out in 3 more months rehome or euthanize?

Do I set a monetary limit? $1000 more dollars? When the monthly vet/medication expenses reaches the level of a car payment, a mortgage payment? I'm already having to rearrange my budget to meet his expenses.

If I choose to rehome, are there people wiling to take on a dog with his issues? I have never been in this situation. All of my dogs have been for life. I made commitments and I have honored those commitments but this dog is breaking me.



 

[Pawz4me]

HIs behavior issues could be related at least somewhat to not feeling well. I'm not saying they are, just that it's a possibility.

You aren't wrong to be thinking about what constitutes "enough." All of us have our limits, both in financial resources and emotional/physical resources. Make your best decision and try not to feel guilty about it.

If he's a purebred it's possible you could find a breed rescue that would be willing to take him or help you some with vet expenses. Depending on what area of the country you're in you might be able to find a rescue to take him or help you with vet expenses if he's a mixed breed. Here shelters and rescues sadly have more healthy mixed breeds than they can deal with, so getting help with an unhealthy animal is challenging, to say the least.

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I appreciate it. Raw is being considered. I have tried to give him some raw foods but he just walks away. I need to figure out why he refuses to eat before beginning a new feeding regimen, don't you think?

I have tried so many different options. They might work for a couple of days and then he'll stop eating. His current food is VitaFresh Chicken, spinach, blueberry. He ate that well for about two weeks and now he just walks away.

I did entice him to eat a couple of raw hot dogs last night. I know they aren't the best dog food but at least I got him to eat about 200 calories yesterday.

Please don't quote the following~

What I really need is someone willing to have the difficult but honest conversations with me. How much emotional and financial investment does a person put into a dog? I know it's a personal decision based on individual circumstances but I don't know when to say enough is enough. He's not fun. He was supposed to be my adventure companion. There hasn't been any camping, few hikes, and limited walks. If he doesn't eat, he doesn't have any energy or he's grumpy and barks at other dogs. People in the neighborhood are upset with us because of his cowpie poops that are difficult to scoop into a doggy bag and we leave traces wherever he poops. I do my best but trying to scoop liquid stool isn't easy. 

He's been through three different obedience classes (he is quite intelligent and learns commands and tricks easily) and has been socialized. He has a canine best friend. However, he is so reactive when on leash, it's disheartening. He's passed Star Puppy but can't pass Canine Good Citizen due to reactivity. Without passing CGC, I can't progress to agility; not that he has energy for agility at the moment.

I've had him assessed for aggression. No one believes he is aggressive. Reactive, yes. Aggressive, no.

So I wonder (mostly thinking out loud here) -

Do I set a time limit? If we can't figure it out in 3 more months rehome or euthanize?

Do I set a monetary limit? $1000 more dollars? When the monthly vet/medication expenses reaches the level of a car payment, a mortgage payment? I'm already having to rearrange my budget to meet his expenses.

If I choose to rehome, are there people wiling to take on a dog with his issues? I have never been in this situation. All of my dogs have been for life. I made commitments and I have honored those commitments but this dog is breaking me.



 

Items like blueberries and spinach are plants that contain sugars/starches. *If* carbohydrates are being poorly tolerated, then it would not be unreasonable to have a dog turn against a food that contains them after a time. Who would enjoy eating if their GI tract was upset every time one indulged?

In your situation I'd want to try excluding all carbohydrates (and all plant-based food) and then see what happens. As a trial.

Also, in my experience chicken is the least appealing "meat" for most dogs. Because chicken is inexpensive and a great source of soft raw edible-bone, almost everyone who raw feeds includes chicken (assuming no intolerance). I certainly do. But I'm aware the chicken will be the last thing eaten at every meal.

One way to make chicken more enticing (at the start) is to put a very light sear on the outside. Not enough to "cook" the meat (particularly with bone-in pieces, as you'd never want to serve cooked bone). Dogs are driven by "smell" and it is a way to encourage eating.

Red meat and organs tend to be more appealing. My dog (and cat) will always eat liver first when it is part of a meal, but animals are individuals and tastes can vary.

I'm sorry to read that you are nearing a breaking point. It is understandable. Doing elimination diets seems reasonable at this point. I'd try eliminating plants and feeding fresh meats, organs, and bones. But sometimes it is a protein type that needs elimination (and chicken is not an unusual culprit). So finding the answer can be a trial (and I understand that you are nearing your limits).

Sorry you are going through such troubles.

Wishing you the best.

Bill

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car - I am transitioning to raw. I read up on Primal Raw and decided to give it a try. Unfortunately, my little town doesn't have many of the organ meats so I'll have to order online or drive to the City and look for some up there. Our local butcher went out of business about two years ago or I would have had unlimited access to bovine organs. Walmart did have beef tripe and tongue. I had a bit of sticker shock ($45 for one package of each) but, since we are in crisis mode, I went ahead and purchased them.

Yesterday's dinner was his first mostly raw meal. He ate every bite and licked his plate clean. He even ate the raw chicken foot with gusto. I can't tell you the last time he wagged his tail while eating.

This morning he was sitting at my feet while I prepared his food dish. This is a deviation from the norm which usually involves me going to find him and enticing him to come eat, him sniffing the food and walking away. He ate everything (except the chicken foot which he still hasn't eaten) within minutes of it being offered. I'm uncertain as to why the chicken foot was rejected. I'll try another one tomorrow.

I left his bowl of kibble out during the night and he also ate some of it. 

At this point, he is not vomiting. I'm curious to see what his stool will look like and whether or not he will succumb to diarrhea again.

If you, Spy Car, have any other pointers for raw feeding (storage, preparation, etc), I would appreciate advice. I'll continue to read up on it this week. I have to go near the City on Wednesday so a detour to a butcher is possible. Anything special I should pick up?

[ktgrok]

35 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I am transitioning to raw. I read up on Primal Raw and decided to give it a try. Unfortunately, my little town doesn't have many of the organ meats so I'll have to order online or drive to the City and look for some up there. Our local butcher went out of business about two years ago or I would have had unlimited access to bovine organs. Walmart did have beef tripe and tongue. I had a bit of sticker shock ($45 for one package of each) but, since we are in crisis mode, I went ahead and purchased them.

Yesterday's dinner was his first mostly raw meal. He ate every bite and licked his plate clean. He even ate the raw chicken foot with gusto. I can't tell you the last time he wagged his tail while eating.

This morning he was sitting at my feet while I prepared his food dish. This is a deviation from the norm which usually involves me going to find him and enticing him to come eat, him sniffing the food and walking away. He ate everything (except the chicken foot which he still hasn't eaten) within minutes of it being offered. I'm uncertain as to why the chicken foot was rejected. I'll try another one tomorrow.

I left his bowl of kibble out during the night and he also ate some of it. 

At this point, he is not vomiting. I'm curious to see what his stool will look like and whether or not he will succumb to diarrhea again.

If you, Spy Car, have any other pointers for raw feeding (storage, preparation, etc), I would appreciate advice. I'll continue to read up on it this week. I have to go near the City on Wednesday so a detour to a butcher is possible. Anything special I should pick up?

Do you have any more small grocery stores that are frequented by various ethnic groups? We have one here that is mostly shopped by spanish speaking groups and it had way more organs. Our walmart has chicken liver frequently - and it's less expensive than beef liver. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

6 minutes ago, ktgrok said:

Do you have any more small grocery stores that are frequented by various ethnic groups? We have one here that is mostly shopped by spanish speaking groups and it had way more organs. Our walmart has chicken liver frequently - and it's less expensive than beef liver. 

I know where one used to be. I have no idea if it's still open. Thank you for the reminder, I never would have thought about a small, specialty grocer.

[KSera]

3 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

He ate everything (except the chicken foot which he still hasn't eaten) within minutes of it being offered. I'm uncertain as to why the chicken foot was rejected. I'll try another one tomorrow.
 

On the chicken foot, our dog for some reason always seemed completely confused about what to do with a chicken foot. She would carry it around a bit and gently set it down, but I think only ate it once. I stopped trying.

Really good news to hear he responded so well to the raw food! I'm hopeful for you that will keep going (and that you will find a less expensive source!)

[Spy Car]

3 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I am transitioning to raw. I read up on Primal Raw and decided to give it a try. Unfortunately, my little town doesn't have many of the organ meats so I'll have to order online or drive to the City and look for some up there. Our local butcher went out of business about two years ago or I would have had unlimited access to bovine organs. Walmart did have beef tripe and tongue. I had a bit of sticker shock ($45 for one package of each) but, since we are in crisis mode, I went ahead and purchased them.

Yesterday's dinner was his first mostly raw meal. He ate every bite and licked his plate clean. He even ate the raw chicken foot with gusto. I can't tell you the last time he wagged his tail while eating.

This morning he was sitting at my feet while I prepared his food dish. This is a deviation from the norm which usually involves me going to find him and enticing him to come eat, him sniffing the food and walking away. He ate everything (except the chicken foot which he still hasn't eaten) within minutes of it being offered. I'm uncertain as to why the chicken foot was rejected. I'll try another one tomorrow.

I left his bowl of kibble out during the night and he also ate some of it. 

At this point, he is not vomiting. I'm curious to see what his stool will look like and whether or not he will succumb to diarrhea again.

If you, Spy Car, have any other pointers for raw feeding (storage, preparation, etc), I would appreciate advice. I'll continue to read up on it this week. I have to go near the City on Wednesday so a detour to a butcher is possible. Anything special I should pick up?

I had a long post and lost it. Oh dear.

First, congratulations.

Second, try to keep this "cheap." Make scoring cheap stuff part of the fun. Beef tongue is outstanding (especially for cats, as it is taurine rich) but the price has gone crazy. "Green Tripe," which is unprocessed and very stinky, is loved by dogs and can only be had outside the human supply chain is good stuff, but so over-hyped that the price has soared beyond what is reasonable to me. Processed tripe (from markets) is not something generall fed by raw feeders.

You will need organs. Liver is essential. Beef liver is great and inexpensive. Alternating in chicken or pork liver (or other) is a nice bonus.

You will also need other organs to alternate. Beef kidney is the most common "other." Options include "melts (spleen), sweetbreads (thymus gland/pancreas), brains, ovaries/testicles, and the like.  If more exotic "secreting organs" are impossible--don't sweat it--use kidney.

Dogs should get 10% organ daily. Half liver and half "other."

To make my life easier, I've come to cutting up the organs into 10% of daily meal sizes and freezing on trays until solid. Then bagging is big zip locks. The doing "liver day" on one day and "other day" the next. This ensures that vital organs get fed and I don't have to do any "make up." Some dogs get very loose stools if fed copious amounts of liver in one session.

Stools should be very compact and firm. You may be shocked at how little waste you see. Raw-fed stool will look like it came from a different species (like a wild animal) compared with kibble plops. Hardly any smell.

Chicken is a mainstay (barring intolerances). It is cheap and bone-in chicken is a great source of edible bone. Bone should be about 10% of the diet. Some need a little more. If stools look soft, increase bone. If rock hard, decrease bone.

Here is a link to the bone percentages in common cuts:

https://perfectlyrawsome.com/raw-feeding-knowledgebase/bone-content-in-raw-meaty-bones/

I belive that dark meat chicken is more nutritious than breast.

The hardworking muscles from cattle and pork are typically inexpensive (relatively) and nutritious. Pork shoulder, cushion meat, butt, and picnic are all top choices. And fatty (which is good).

A note about fat. In this transition (and only now) I'd advise trimming the fat and making the meals "lean." Over the next weeks increase the amount of fat steadily.

Never feed raw salmon or trout from the PNW.

Raw egg yolks are good, but not too many raw egg whites. If you wish to regularly feed eggs, at least cook the whites (raw albumin is said to bind with biotin)

How large is this puppy? How old?

I'm going to forget something here, but these are the basics.

I also cut of "meat" (like beef and pork) and individually tray freeze, then ziplock as my way to keep order.

I'm sure you will have questions. Feel free to ask.

Very exciting!

Bill

 

 

[Spy Car]

29 minutes ago, KSera said:

On the chicken foot, our dog for some reason always seemed completely confused about what to do with a chicken foot. She would carry it around a bit and gently set it down, but I think only ate it once. I stopped trying.

Really good news to hear he responded so well to the raw food! I'm hopeful for you that will keep going (and that you will find a less expensive source!)

Good reminder that I forgot this point.

Just at the start, chicken feet are one of those "bland" items that some dogs (not mine, and the cat likes them too) that may require a little "encouragement."

If one takes a cast iron skillet and lets it get really hot, toss the foot in the pan just for a second so the outside takes a flash sear. You DO NOT want to "cook" the bones, just put on some "nose."

Canines are driven by smell and a few second in a hot pan (long tongs are your friend here) will trigger dogs brain's that this is food.

They typically are creatures of habit and transfer "good eats" to raw feet.

Worth a try.

Bill

[Spy Car]

So-called "ethnic" markets are the key for me.

We'd be in trouble sourcing from some of our local "posh" supermarkets, which do not stock "odd bits."

Rural people often look to hunters and ranchers and other local resources. Like small slaughterhouses that might sell "green tripe" and other weird items out the back door.

Bill

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car- He is 18 months old and holding onto 45 #. He should be 60-65 pounds with 55# being his absolute min weight. He's a Belgian Sheepdog so 45# for a young male isn't unheard of but he's skin and bones, no cushion anywhere.

His stool this morning was loose and smelly but he's transitioning so I'm not too concerned because he is eating.
 

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

So-called "ethnic" markets are the key for me.

We'd be in trouble sourcing from some of our local "posh" supermarkets, which do not stock "odd bits."

Rural people often look to hunters and ranchers and other local resources. Like small slaughterhouses that might sell "green tripe" and other weird items out the back door.

Bill

I live in an area where hunting is common in the fall. I have to research whether or not venison organ meat is appropriate for dogs as it will be inexpensive and plentiful this fall and I can stock up..  I do know one place to possibly get fresh organ meats about an hour away. It's a locker where many hunters take their deer for processing. It also processes a lot of beef from local farmers. 

[Spy Car]

@Granny_Weatherwax Once you have enough food in hand, I'd pick up the kibble bowl and give the new diet the opportunity to do its thing w/o carbs in the mix.

I laughed about the new tail wagging reaction to dinner. I can promise you that my Chester--who is athletic, but now 8+ years old--will repeatedly leap 4 feet into the air every single night at dinner time. Such excitement!

And aside to beginning to grow a little bit white in his face--a bred trait called "sugarface"--he still looks and acts like a puppy. Beautiful condition. Lean. Strong. Gleaming white teeth. Vibrantly healthy.

You will see.

Bill

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car - Sugarface, I love that. I called my senior dog (who passed away 8 weeks ago) a Silver Muzzle. Oh, how I miss him.

I just hope I can get my young dog on the path to wellness. Never did I expect to be struggling with a young dog's health and facing the possibility of losing both of my dogs in short succession. 

[Spy Car]

15 minutes ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

I live in an area where hunting is common in the fall. I have to research whether or not venison organ meat is appropriate for dogs as it will be inexpensive and plentiful this fall and I can stock up..  I do know one place to possibly get fresh organ meats about an hour away. It's a locker where many hunters take their deer for processing. It also processes a lot of beef from local farmers. 

Venison (which I can't access easily) is supposed to be great. I'd make sure that the wasting disease that I understand is spreading in deer in some areas is not an issue. If parasites are another issue (I don't know) I'd cook the meat. I'm not a "raw" fanatic.

Having a relationship with a meat processor could be a boon. Dogs thrive on odd bits that humans often neglect.

Definitely explore this option!!!

Bill

 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Spy Car

[Spy Car]

4 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I am transitioning to raw. I read up on Primal Raw and decided to give it a try. Unfortunately, my little town doesn't have many of the organ meats so I'll have to order online or drive to the City and look for some up there. Our local butcher went out of business about two years ago or I would have had unlimited access to bovine organs. Walmart did have beef tripe and tongue. I had a bit of sticker shock ($45 for one package of each) but, since we are in crisis mode, I went ahead and purchased them.

Yesterday's dinner was his first mostly raw meal. He ate every bite and licked his plate clean. He even ate the raw chicken foot with gusto. I can't tell you the last time he wagged his tail while eating.

This morning he was sitting at my feet while I prepared his food dish. This is a deviation from the norm which usually involves me going to find him and enticing him to come eat, him sniffing the food and walking away. He ate everything (except the chicken foot which he still hasn't eaten) within minutes of it being offered. I'm uncertain as to why the chicken foot was rejected. I'll try another one tomorrow.

I left his bowl of kibble out during the night and he also ate some of it. 

At this point, he is not vomiting. I'm curious to see what his stool will look like and whether or not he will succumb to diarrhea again.

If you, Spy Car, have any other pointers for raw feeding (storage, preparation, etc), I would appreciate advice. I'll continue to read up on it this week. I have to go near the City on Wednesday so a detour to a butcher is possible. Anything special I should pick up?

 

Somehow part of my original post (that I "lost") has been "restored."

Forgive any redundancies, I'm repost below, what got saved.

Re-reading your posts, I'd missed the reference to "Primal Raw." Not sure which product you are trying, but thse seems like it could both "break the bank" and everything I'm seeing contains plants.

I'd urge you to do DIY instead. You will save money and (more importantly IMO) cut out the carbohydrates that are not an essential part of a canine diet.

At least try a complete elimination of plants/carbs/sugars/starches as a trial.

Original post fragment below:

******

Great news.

To save you some money. I would advise not to purchase things that are  disproportionately expensive. Part of this (on a practical level) has to be keeping it real. Try to treat "scoring" great deals a bit of a game. In a small town you may need to think differently that I do in a big city.

Beef tongue (while excellent--especially for cats due to the rich taurine) has become so expensive. Too dear for me to feed the dog.

As to "tripe," there is a form called "green tripe" that is unprocessed/uncleaned/unbleached that one can only get outside the human supply chain. Stinks like cow-pie. Dogs love it. Used to be cheap. Then got hyped a a "miracle food." Now, mostly too expensive for me. But I'd happily feed it at the right price. The processed (bleached) tripe isn't something most raw feeders serve. Too processed.

To keep stools perfect you will want to keep the edible bone ratios (to overall meal) in a range of around 10%. Some dogs do better on a little more bone. If stools are soft, increase bone and do the opposite is they look very hard. Raw fed stools should be small and more compact that you are used to seeing. Like they came from a wild animal and not like a "plop." You should be surprised at how little pop you are dealing with vs a kibble diet.

You will need organ meat. Liver and kidney at minimum. If you can find "melts" (spleen), sweetbreads (pancreas/thymus glands), brains, ovaries/testicales, then great. If not don't worry. Liver and kidney are foundational.

With organs. My advice is to cut the orhans up into pieces that are aprox. 10% of a dogs meal. That might involve guesswork at the beginning, but you will get used to it. I freeze the organ pieces on trays until solid ("individually frozen") and then bag them.

Dogs should get 10% "organs" daily. Half being liver and half "other." So I feed organs daily. One day is "liver day" the next is "other day" (with other typically being kidney).

Bone-in chicken is a mainstay. It is cheap and the edible bone is not a threat for cracking teeth. I've super-conservative with bone and avoid weight-bearing bones like cattle femurs and knuckle bones myself.

 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

@Spy Car - I meant Prey Raw, not Primal.  I am trying to absorb so much information I minced words.

 

Today's update: he refuses to eat the raw food. Just sniffed it and walked away. Not even a lick. I put it back in the refrigerator and will offer it again later. Never have I ever seen a dog refuse food like this. 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I meant Prey Raw, not Primal.  I am trying to absorb so much information I minced words.

 

Today's update: he refuses to eat the raw food. Just sniffed it and walked away. Not even a lick. I put it back in the refrigerator and will offer it again later. Never have I ever seen a dog refuse food like this. 

try to get him to eat a little of anything/something, to "prime the pump" even if it is just a lick of peanut butter or whatever. Often these dogs need to get that first bite or so in, and then they will eat. 

[Spy Car]

Just now, Granny_Weatherwax said:

@Spy Car - I meant Prey Raw, not Primal.  I am trying to absorb so much information I minced words.

 

Today's update: he refuses to eat the raw food. Just sniffed it and walked away. Not even a lick. I put it back in the refrigerator and will offer it again later. Never have I ever seen a dog refuse food like this. 

OK. I got confused. There is a brand called "Primal Raw."

What did you serve him? I would suspect your guy associates eating and not feeling well afterwards.

Consider putting the lightest of sears on the outside of the food, so when he sniffs and licks that his nose/brain receptors light up.

Bill

[KSera]

1 hour ago, ktgrok said:

try to get him to eat a little of anything/something, to "prime the pump" even if it is just a lick of peanut butter or whatever. Often these dogs need to get that first bite or so in, and then they will eat. 

When I had a senior dog who suddenly stopped eating completely, what ended up getting her going again was a little pure maple syrup. I can’t remember where I read it, but I was desperate, and it worked. As you said, it primed the pump. I gave her a couple licks plain, then I put a little on her food and she licked it off and then ate the food. Obviously, not a good choice if a dog has specific sugar issues, but otherwise, sometimes desperate circumstances call for desperate measures. 

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Priming - a lot of priming has been going on. It is so frustrating.

I ended up lightly cooking the entire meal, just enough browning to make it aromatic, then he ate about 2/3. He's eaten about 2/3 of one meal today. It's not enough calories for a dog of his size. No walk for him today as all he wanted to do was lie around.

[Spy Car]

2 hours ago, Granny_Weatherwax said:

Priming - a lot of priming has been going on. It is so frustrating.

I ended up lightly cooking the entire meal, just enough browning to make it aromatic, then he ate about 2/3. He's eaten about 2/3 of one meal today. It's not enough calories for a dog of his size. No walk for him today as all he wanted to do was lie around.

Good. That's a start. My hope is that he doesn't feel sick after eating a meal that is free of carbs and it becomes a virtuous cycle.

What's on the menu?

Chicken tends to be the least popular raw food item with most dogs (not that it is bad). I feed my dog chicken almost daily. He is not "picky," but chicken gets eaten last. I'd worked with more than a few people whose dogs needed a "searing" transition to get their dogs started on chicken. They all were able wean off this once the dog got used to chicken.

Beef tends to be more popular item with most dogs.

I meant to mention beef heart the other day. Counts as "meat" (not organs) under PMR, and is a great option for getting beef into the diet if you can find it at a good price. Typically beef heart is an economical cut.

Bill