Okay, I'm honestly stumped about where I am in math skills

[Night Elf]

I am doing a self-study of an eclectic mix of curriculum. For math, I chose Saxon because of all the math programs I purchased for my children over the course of our 15 years of homeschooling, I related most to Saxon. I liked the incremental style as I need repetition of concepts to cement them in my mind. With me so far?

I figured I could start with Algebra 1. I'm 54 years old. I helped my children, somewhat, in their Algebra 1 courses. However, all these years later, working in the Algebra 1 book, I got lost quickly. So I figured, let me back up to pre-Algebra. Surely I can go through that curriculum quickly and relearn the concepts I forgot. Still with me?

I'm on Lesson 47 of 123 and I'm not doing well. I can do equations, exponents, and radicals in the forms of letters and numbers. Where I mess up with EVERY SINGLE PROBLEM is word problems. I just cannot think my way through these problems. Then DH tries to help me by breaking them down into smaller numbers, using real life examples, and drawing pictures. I still can't figure them out. How do I catch up to this level of math I'm in so I can move forward?

Do I need to back up yet another level? Do I need a different curriculum? I really want to learn math. I'm not asking to go through higher math but I'd like to get to Algebra 1 and Geometry. Yet this pre-Algebra is just too much for me.

Help!

[HomeAgain]

It sounds like you are having trouble with the vocabulary.  I don't want to go too far here in case I'm off base (and please post an example of one you struggled with if I am) but it really helps here to go through and pick out all the math vocabulary words first: of, more than, less than, with, double, part...and so on, and then pull out numbers, putting the appropriate signs in place of the math vocab.

 

You can always back up or find word problems online for each stage of math to help you develop a more confident understanding, including learning to draw your own illustrations or break it into smaller units.

[Night Elf]

1 minute ago, HomeAgain said:

It sounds like you are having trouble with the vocabulary.  I don't want to go too far here in case I'm off base (and please post an example of one you struggled with if I am)

Here is just one problem that stumped me tonight. 

There were 3 times as many castles as there were kings. There were 7 times as many princesses as kings. if there were 12 kings, what is the sum of the number of kings, castles, and princesses?

I tried 4 times to write out this problem in math terms and solve it and never got the right answer. Then DH stepped in and tried to talk me through it. I still couldn't grasp what he said. Then he helped even more and I eventually got the problem right but I can't tell you how I did it. I just know I was able to check it off and move to the next one. I managed 3 problems before I gave up and closed the book in frustration.

The chapter is on evaluation of exponential expressions and radicals. 2 with an exponent of X and solve if x = 4. I had no problems with those types of problems. I understand exponents and radicals. I'm fairly good at solving basic equations. I'm also fairly good at order of operations. Like I have no problem solving 7(2 + 6 - 4) + 2 cubed - the cubed root of 8. No problem. Word problems though? Not so much.

[Kiara.I]

Start with pictures before equations. Or cubes, or something. One colour for each thing, until you get the balance, it until it makes sense. So for this, (I'll imagine you have an infinite selection of coloured cubes) you could put three grey cubes (castles) and one gold cube (kings.) Okay, that's the first part. Maybe you'll have to adjust based on later parts, maybe not.

So the next part, 7 princesses per King. YES! It's comparing to the same thing (Kings) in both parts, so no adjusting required. Phew. So you can toss 7 blue cubes out to represent your princesses, and you don't need to change the number of Kings or castles.

Then you can look at what you have, and hopefully see what's needed for the equations.

Would that kind of visualization process help you?

[BusyMom5]

Read one sentence at a time. 

There were 3 times as many castles as kings.  

Which had more?   Castles or Kings?  There were more castles.  How many more?  3x as many. 

C=3K

Next sentence:  There were 7 times as many princesses than Kings.  

Which had more?  Princesses or kings?  There were more princesses.  How many more?  7x more.  P=7K

Next sentence:  If there were 12 Kings, what is the sum of Kings, Princesses and Castles?

Kings= K = 12

Princesses= 7K = 84

Castles= 3K = 36

Add them all together = 132

You could also just add up before you multiplied.   

1K + 7K + 3K= 11K

If K is 12, you have 11x12= 132

I have a kiddo with APD and we had to break down every single word problem for years.  For her, I think all the words blurred together.  Sometimes I even covered up the rest if the problem and just focused on one sentence at a time.

Edited February 4, 2022 by BusyMom5

[HomeAgain]

9 minutes ago, Night Elf said:

Here is just one problem that stumped me tonight. 

There were 3 times as many castles as there were kings. There were 7 times as many princesses as kings. if there were 12 kings, what is the sum of the number of kings, castles, and princesses?

I tried 4 times to write out this problem in math terms and solve it and never got the right answer. Then DH stepped in and tried to talk me through it. I still couldn't grasp what he said. Then he helped even more and I eventually got the problem right but I can't tell you how I did it. I just know I was able to check it off and move to the next one. I managed 3 problems before I gave up and closed the book in frustration.

The chapter is on evaluation of exponential expressions and radicals. 2 with an exponent of X and solve if x = 4. I had no problems with those types of problems. I understand exponents and radicals. I'm fairly good at solving basic equations. I'm also fairly good at order of operations. Like I have no problem solving 7(2 + 6 - 4) + 2 cubed - the cubed root of 8. No problem. Word problems though? Not so much.

So this is one where it is definitely helpful to write out the words as symbols

Three times (3x of what is what?  3 x kings = castles)

Seven times (7 x what is what?  7 x kings =  princesses)

Kings = 12

Sum = to add

So now we have 12 kings or

kings = 12

How many castles?  It's 3 x (kings) or 3 x 12 = castles

How many pincesses?  It's 7 x (kings) or 7 x 12 = princesses

so kings and castles and princesses becomes

(12) + 3(12) + 7(12) = Total

 

MEP has a lot of word problems like this you might work through and then read the teacher's explanation as you do it, just to teach yourself again.

[Night Elf]

See, you guys all make sense! As I read through the solutions, I'm nodding my head, but I was unable to break it down by sentence. I kept putting things in the wrong position.

I tried looking up MEP and only find Years 1 through 6. 

What about Math U See? They're manipulatives might be helpful, but are there word problems in the levels?

[mellifera33]

Try this for MEP. Google tries to direct me to the primary page but this should lead to the main program page. https://www.cimt.org.uk/projects/mep/index.htm

[daijobu]

One thing you can try is if you have a frustrating session as you described, shut your book and rest a couple of days.  When you have some idle time like during boring housework, think about the kings, castles, and princesses. 

Think about 3 times as many kings as castles.  (Why would there be more kings than castles?  Wouldn't one expect to have more castles than kings?)  Think about 7 times as many princesses as kings.  (Big families back then.)  Really ruminate on this.  Think about how many princesses are running around if 2 kings got together with their families.  How many princesses would there be?  Think about how much food you would need for 3 kings and their families.  What if every king had 5 princes?  What if every king had 3 dogs?  

Don't stress about getting the numbers right, but just think about it when you are otherwise idle.  After a couple of days return to the same problems and try them again, slowly.  Maybe just try attempt one single problem.  If you get it right, read the second problem, close your book and think about that one for a day or two.  I really believe in the power of active meditation and sleep to help difficult topics sink in.  Learning is uncomfortable.  

Ed:  Misspelled "princesses"

Edited February 4, 2022 by daijobu

[SoCal_Bear]

https://www.borenson.com/

I think this could help Hands on Equations. The white cover book of verbal problems is great. All of it is meant to be worked with the manipulatives.

[Clarita]

I did higher math and I did higher math for work. I still would sometimes get out actual physical objects like a 5 year old to do problems. GEt some poker chips, unifix cubes, coins, or fruit. Pick a color for kings, a color for princesses and a color for castles. (You can choose smaller numbers to start but try and make each number unique).  See how the kings, castles and princesses actually work.

Then take the next step and think of (from those physical objects) the equation to solve the problem.

[Ellie]

But did you do the placement test? You *always* have the student take the placement test first. 🙂

[Night Elf]

2 hours ago, Ellie said:

But did you do the placement test? You *always* have the student take the placement test first. 🙂

Yes, and it suggested Algebra 1/2. But I did that while I was waiting for the Algebra 1 books to arrive that I had purchased on eBay. I decided to try the Algebra 1 since I already had the books. That didn't work. The placement test was correct. haha So I purchased the books for Algebra 1/2. I flipped pages until I reached a lesson that looked like I could use some practice. The words problems weren't too much of a problem so I felt okay skipping over them. I began with Lesson 29 I think and now I'm on Lesson 47 and the word problems are just beyond me. 

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, Night Elf said:

Yes, and it suggested Algebra 1/2. But I did that while I was waiting for the Algebra 1 books to arrive that I had purchased on eBay. I decided to try the Algebra 1 since I already had the books. That didn't work. The placement test was correct. haha So I purchased the books for Algebra 1/2. I flipped pages until I reached a lesson that looked like I could use some practice. The words problems weren't too much of a problem so I felt okay skipping over them. I began with Lesson 29 I think and now I'm on Lesson 47 and the word problems are just beyond me. 

Saxon would recommend going back to the beginning and doing all.the.problems. And there's a reason that Saxon recommends *never* skipping *any* of the problems. 🙂

[Night Elf]

Well, so much for that plan! I did take the placement test but only to see if I could handle Algebra 1. I just took the entire placement test from Math 5/4 through Algebra 1/2 and placed into Math 8/7. 

I now own Saxon Math Algebra 1/2 and Algebra 1 and neither are useful at this point.

I researched my options last night and decided to play around with Life of Fred. I ordered Fractions with the companion practice problems and decimals and percents with the companion practice problems. They may be too easy for me but I do have some difficulty with the concepts so maybe they'll be helpful. My ds's girlfriend tutors middle school math through some college math and has offered to help me if needed. How embarrassing! 

Thanks for all the help. All I want to do is enjoy math, not get stressed out about it.

[EKS]

16 hours ago, Night Elf said:

There were 3 times as many castles as there were kings. There were 7 times as many princesses as kings. if there were 12 kings, what is the sum of the number of kings, castles, and princesses?

Sometimes it helps to think about what would happen if there were one of something (like a king).

There were 3 times as many castles as there were kings.  If there were one king, there would be three castles.

There were 7 times as many princesses as kings.  If there were one king, there would be seven princesses.

Instead of one king, there are 12 kings.  Therefore there are 3 x 12 = 36 castles and 7 x 12 = 84 princesses.

With algebra, you would do something like this.

Let k = the number of kings.  Therefore 3k = the number of castles and 7k = the number of princesses.  Then plug in 12 for k everywhere and solve.

But I realize you're not really asking about the specifics of this problem, and you'd like to know what you need to back up to to make this work. 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think it's possible that Saxon is fragmenting your understanding of math and that you might do better with a more whole to parts program.  I highly recommend Derek Owens, starting with prealgebra.  If you need review, you can just go back and do the assigned problems again after a few weeks.

 

[Night Elf]

1 hour ago, EKS said:

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think it's possible that Saxon is fragmenting your understanding of math and that you might do better with a more whole to parts program.  I highly recommend Derek Owens, starting with prealgebra.  If you need review, you can just go back and do the assigned problems again after a few weeks.

 

That one doesn't sound familiar. I was a curriculum junkie, buying and selling all the time. I don't think my kids ever went through a whole textbook/program. Thank you for the recommendation.

[SoCal_Bear]

To be honest, I am not a fan of how Saxon teaches word problems. That's me. Saxon is what I was taught in in public school. 

Edited February 5, 2022 by calbear

[Clickie]

Just thought I'd throw out a few ideas:

1. Book "Real World Algebra" by Edward Zaccaro starts by "explaining how to turn words into the math language of algebra."  I own the book, it takes a lot of time to walk students though every single step of algebraic thinking to translate words into algebra. The whole book is step-by-step, and the answers to the solution sets are step by step, rather usefully for the self-learner. Just over 300 pages. Here's Amazon link, just for reference to read the reviews:
https://www.amazon.com/Real-World-Algebra-Edward-Zaccaro/dp/0967991528/

2. As just a total mild suggestion, you might want to consider taking a diagnostic test of pre-algebra math readiness. I learned about it on this forum actually, and it looks like it's widely accepted for designing IEPs in the public school system. My son has been doing the "K-end of 7" math diagnositics test from "Let's Go Learn," (abbreviated "ADAM" he's done it three times over the past 6 months) and he's pretty much at the top of the scoring now.   The next test we'll do is their pre-algebra readiness test.  They call it "DOMA".  $25 for a test.  It's been worth it for us, and on the nose in terms of where I had to shore up some of my son's gaps.
https://www.letsgolearn.com/solutions/diagnostic-assessments/

3. Have you thought about going through zearn.org's (free) Grade 6 program to reconsolidate Grade 6 skills?  I'm not saying you're at Grade 6 but it's heavy on fractions and percents and some algebraic thinking. It has word problems. My son's just finishing their Grade 6. I think I learned about it from EdReports as a widely used supplemental program.  It's a great program, you could create a teacher and a student account for yourself and do 2 or 3 lessons a day.  It's interactive videos, great content: you watch a teacher present a teaching point with math models and then it stops and you have to answer a question right in the video. It has some level of adaptive learning depending on whether you get the answer right or wrong. Then you do a test section for each lesson.  It's mainly K-5, but they are rolling out Middle School in the next year or so, only Grade 6 so far, but I'm hoping for Grade 7 soon....
https://www.zearn.org/

Anyways, just ideas. Good luck.

[Clickie]

Oh, another idea:

4. Critical Thinking Company's "Algebra Word Problems" Book 1 by Anita Harnadek. I included a more representative sample page on my other posting....

https://www.criticalthinking.com/algebra-word-problems.html

For reviews:

https://www.amazon.com/Algebra-Word-Problems-Book-1/dp/0894557998