Algebra 1

[JennyD]

DS13 and I have been using AoPS Intro Algebra this year, and he is finishing up Ch. 8.   I can't quite put my finger on what's going on, but I just feel like he's not 100% getting what he needs to get, if that makes any sense.

Anyway, I'm not looking to switch texts (at least not yet) but I think it would be useful for us to spend some time working in a more traditional Algebra 1 textbook.  Looking through the pinned post and other threads, I see that Foerster's and Dolciani are frequently recommended, but poking around the interwebs I don't see solutions manuals available.  Am I looking in the wrong places?  Should I be looking at a different textbook?  We don't need video or other instruction but I would very much appreciate solutions to the problems. 

Thanks for any suggestions.   We have used only AoPS/BA for years so I am not familiar with other math programs.  

Edited January 17, 2022 by JennyD

[UHP]

47 minutes ago, JennyD said:

 I can't quite put my finger on what's going on, but I just feel like he's not 100% getting what he needs to get, if that makes any sense.

Any recent trouble that would be useful to talk through? I'm not an experienced algebra tutor. But I'm anticipating it, and interested in reading about it.

[JennyD]

46 minutes ago, UHP said:

Any recent trouble that would be useful to talk through? I'm not an experienced algebra tutor. But I'm anticipating it, and interested in reading about it.

Nothing specific, really.   I like the AoPs approach a lot and DS has learned a ton.  I just think it could be useful for us to go over some of these topics again to really cement them.

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by JennyD

[Ad astra]

You can purchase Foerster's Algebra 1 solutions manual at https://www.rainbowresource.com/product/033404/Algebra-I---Solutions-Manual.html?. Sorry, just saw that it's also out of print. No worked solutions for Foerster's Algebra 1 at Quizlet, either... 

Dolciani's solutions manual is more tricky to find as it's out of print. Used copies are rare and pricey. But you can find the step-by-step solutions for most problems at Quizlet. 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Ad astra

[Lucy the Valiant]

45 minutes ago, Ad astra said:

You can purchase Foerster's Algebra 1 solutions manual at https://www.rainbowresource.com/product/033404/Algebra-I---Solutions-Manual.html?. Sorry, just saw that it's also out of print. No worked solutions for Foerster's Algebra 1 at Quizlet, either... 

Dolciani's solutions manual is more tricky to find as it's out of print. Used copies are rare and pricey. But you can find the step-by-step solutions for most problems at Quizlet. 

^ Dolciani is known locally in my home school circles as "Houghton math" - it's the exact same Structure & Method course, but that might widen your search a bit? We were able to find a solutions manual that way "back in the day". 

[Janeway]

Jacobs is really good too. You can easily get the book and solutions manual for that one.  That used to be one of the highly recommended ones on this board and it really is on par with the other two. I own all three, the two you listed and Jacobs, and they really are quite equal. They are just different in presentation.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Janeway

[BusyMom5]

No what you asked for, but if its more practice you need, what about spending some time on Khan Academy?  I don't like it for the only program, but its very good to build fluency and for extra practice in targeted areas.  Its also free 😉

[8filltheheart]

If you are decent at algebra, you probably don't need the SM.  Is the TM easier to find.  I own both, but I usually just sit there with the TM.  (saving the SM in case my dil might need it, though.)

[JennyD]

58 minutes ago, 8filltheheart said:

If you are decent at algebra, you probably don't need the SM.  Is the TM easier to find.  I own both, but I usually just sit there with the TM.  (saving the SM in case my dil might need it, though.)

Is this for Foerster's?  I did not even realize there was a TM. What is the difference between that and a solutions manual?

I like to think that I am reasonably competent at algebra but I would never use AoPS algebra without the solutions book ready to hand.  

[8filltheheart]

47 minutes ago, JennyD said:

Is this for Foerster's?  I did not even realize there was a TM. What is the difference between that and a solutions manual?

I like to think that I am reasonably competent at algebra but I would never use AoPS algebra without the solutions book ready to hand.  

Yes. The TM just gives the answers.  His alg 1 SM works out full problems.  (His alg 2 gives some solutions but not all are fully worked out.)  The textbook includes the answers to the odd problems.

FWIW, I can work out all of the problems in the alg 1 book w/o problem.  If I can, then anyone with a solid grasp of alg can.  (no way I would try AoPS, either.)  I have a student copy that is in just good condition that I can sell you cheaply if you want it.  PM me if you want it. 

Edited January 18, 2022 by 8filltheheart

[Farrar]

You probably don't NEED the SM if you're decent at algebra, but IMHO, you probably want it anyway for any program. I'm sorry, but the whole, oh, just literally do all the high school math work yourself attitude that is pretty prevalent on this board does not work for me. Professional teachers use solutions manuals. You have to teach several subjects and also fulfill the rest of your life duties. You are not obligated to fully work every problem in high school math. Get a solutions manual if at all possible.

[SoCal_Bear]

I posted on here before that we had to back up and redo chapters 8 through 10 before sontinuing on. And we spent a good long time working through problems on Alcumus until he mastered the material. I suppose we could have done the topics in another textbook and returned to go through AOPS again. Without pulling out the textbook, I think it was 8 through 10. You are defiitely not imagining it. It is meaty and dense and goes much deeper. This is where I am pretty  a lot of people exit AOPS for another curriculum.

[SoCal_Bear]

I'm fairly confident that Math Without Borders has worked out video solutions for Foerster for the assigned problem sets.
 

https://mathwithoutborders.com/

[8filltheheart]

7 hours ago, Farrar said:

You probably don't NEED the SM if you're decent at algebra, but IMHO, you probably want it anyway for any program. I'm sorry, but the whole, oh, just literally do all the high school math work yourself attitude that is pretty prevalent on this board does not work for me. Professional teachers use solutions manuals. You have to teach several subjects and also fulfill the rest of your life duties. You are not obligated to fully work every problem in high school math. Get a solutions manual if at all possible.

You only need solutions if your student gets a problem wrong, can't correct it themselves, and you dont see their error immediately and would have to work the problem to find it and help them understand their error (and not know how to solve the problem yourself.)

I guess it depends on how you teach. I dont just grade my kids' math. If the answer is wrong, they need to explain why and be able to correct it. If it is an understanding error, I want to be able to teach them so they do understand. It usually requires working through the problem with them step by step to make sure they understand. 

But, I also grade math immediately, sometimes problem by problem, so it is planned part of my teaching time, not a detractor from my day.

[Lecka]

Well for me, if I have to look at the problem for 10 minutes and start it wrong 3 times, and then get it right…. Or I can see the worked-out solution and be able to explain it and work through it from there…. It makes a big difference.  
 

Especially if my child is sitting there waiting for my help.  

[Lecka]

It’s also much faster to be able to use the worked solution to zero in on the problem area of the problem and be able to help Lu child more quickly.  
 

I think it makes me more effective.

 

 

[8filltheheart]

16 minutes ago, Lecka said:

Well for me, if I have to look at the problem for 10 minutes and start it wrong 3 times, and then get it right…. Or I can see the worked-out solution and be able to explain it and work through it from there…. It makes a big difference.  
 

Especially if my child is sitting there waiting for my help.  

That goes back to how proficient you are in alg 1.  I don't suppose most parents need to see worked out solutions for elementary level math to see the errors.  Alg isn't any different.  I have to take the "with SM in hand approach" with alg 2 bc my alg 2 skills aren't strong enough near the latter 1/2 of the book.  There isn't a universal one size fits all answer.  Only Jenny knows how comfortable she is with alg 1. 

[Ad astra]

Just throwing in another idea if you can't find a solutions manual of a traditional textbook at a reasonable price...

Thinkwell's Algebra 1 course comes with printout worksheets and fully worked solutions for every problem. The problem sets are identical to the ones in the Holt textbook and the videos are done by the author, Dr. Burger. (Caveat: Doing the online multiple-choice practice/quiz portion alone would make the course too easy and light; the worksheets are what make it meaty, IMO.) You said you don't need videos but they, along with the full solutions, really helped my ds firmly grasp concepts and correct the wrong answers on his own. As a former engineer from East Asia I'm very confident with math but rarely had to help him myself other than grading his works. 

However, we used it (the honors version) as a main curriculum. The worksheets have about 1/3 of the problems that are in the Holt textbook and I can't imagine doing all of them in the book. I think doing AoPS AND a traditional textbook/curriculum both would be a LOT of work taking a ton of time and might be overkill. We dropped AoPS after pre-algebra. We didn't find it necessary for us because, while my kid is gifted and good at math, he doesn't LOVE it. He is not the kind who'd enjoy spending hours on solving one hard olympiad problem. And opportunities for math competitions are scarce in my area anyway. I've also seen some who focus so much on higher thinking skills and challenges but overlook or reject much needed basic practices and end up leaving holes in the foundation. Not saying you are the case, but for us switching to a traditional honors course was a better decision.

If you want to stick with AoPS, I agree with the suggestion of Khan Academy from above for a quick buildup of basic concepts.    

Edited January 18, 2022 by Ad astra

[Farrar]

But the problems my kids most needed help with in Algebra I were the ones that were the trickiest and that I was most likely to have to actually take a few minutes on. Plus, it's nice to be able to glance at the solutions and your kid's answers side by side as you check. It's just so much easier. Whether you CAN do it or not isn't really the point. It's whether it's the best use of your time as a homeschool educator who is likely overseeing half a dozen courses (or more if you have multiple kids in high school) at a high level that require you to really think. And sure, it's just adding a little time. But a little time every single day. And a little bit of mental load. Again, every single day that your kid takes the course. If you're so fast at math that this is genuinely nothing, then sure. Save yourself a little money and skip it. But I don't think the average homeschool parent who is capable of teaching algebra I should skip it.

[JennyD]

Thanks for all the replies!

The central problem is that the solutions manuals for either of the books I want to use are largely unavailable   Used SMs for Foerster's, for example, are listed on amazon beginning at $147.  I am not the most price-sensitive homeschool consumer but that is pretty steep for something I'm just trying out as a potential supplement.

I have picked up a used copy of the student Foerster's volume and will keep an eye out for the teacher's manual as well.  We will give it a try and see how it goes.

17 hours ago, calbear said:

I'm fairly confident that Math Without Borders has worked out video solutions for Foerster for the assigned problem sets.
 

https://mathwithoutborders.com/

Thanks!  This looks very helpful.

17 hours ago, calbear said:

I posted on here before that we had to back up and redo chapters 8 through 10 before sontinuing on. And we spent a good long time working through problems on Alcumus until he mastered the material. I suppose we could have done the topics in another textbook and returned to go through AOPS again. Without pulling out the textbook, I think it was 8 through 10. You are defiitely not imagining it. It is meaty and dense and goes much deeper. This is where I am pretty  a lot of people exit AOPS for another curriculum.

Interesting!  I just don't recall how my older son handled these chapters, but it just feels like DS13 is losing the thread ever so slightly.  I had it wrong before -- he's at the end of Chapter 9.  Anyway, I think it will be very useful for us to backtrack, do a little review, and then pick up the AoPS thread again.  

5 hours ago, Ad astra said:

We didn't find it necessary for us because, while my kid is gifted and good at math, he doesn't LOVE it. He is not the kind who'd enjoy spending hours on solving one hard olympiad problem. And opportunities for math competitions are scarce in my area anyway. I've also seen some who focus so much on higher thinking skills and challenges but overlook or reject much needed basic practices and end up leaving holes in the foundation. Not saying you are the case, but for us switching to a traditional honors course was a better decision.

I don't think my middle son is especially gifted, and I certainly wouldn't say that he loves math, but I have been so pleased at how AoPS has helped him develop his math intuition.  

 

 

 

[A MOM IN GEORGIA]

Hello @JennyD!  I somehow did not see this post when I was also looking for exactly the same thing the last several days!!  I have discovered that the "ancillary materials" .pdf at mathwithoutborders includes the solutions manual and it's only $20!!   I came here to share on an ancient post I commented on yesterday and realized I had somehow missed this much more relevant thread haha.  anyway the download is here: https://mathwithoutborders.com/shop/algebra-1-ancillary-materials/.    the solutions manual included is for the 3rd edition.  I have purchased the "classics edition" from prentice hall which is isbn 0-13-165708-9 and as best I can tell it is a 100% perfect match.  The classics edition I bought does not say (that I can find) which edition it is based on, but the picture on the cover is identical to the 3rd edition.  I then double checked by randomly selecting sections/tests to look up, and even the page numbers were perfectly identified!  Pretty nice.

Edited January 22, 2022 by A MOM IN GEORGIA
typo

[Malam]

If you're looking for some more traditional practice, I would suggest ALEKS over another textbook. It would be a great supplement to AoPS' more theoretical explorations, without having to bore students with twice the explanations.

[JennyD]

Just an update -- I picked up a copy of Foersters Algebra 1 and purchased the solutions manual linked above from Math Without Borders.  DS and I have spent the last 6 weeks reviewing what we covered in AoPS Intro Alg chapters 1-9, and now we're switching back to AoPS again for a couple of chapters.  This has worked out very well.  Thanks for everyone for the suggestions!