To continue with "traditional US math" or switch to Singapore Dimensions 6-8 for middle school?

[Ting Tang]

Hi there!

My 4th grade son just started Master Books Level 6 math.  For the most part, it seems MB has "caught up" to other level 6 math programs once you reach this level (it is a gentler approach to math in the lower grades, that's for certain).  I made the switch this school year from Abeka, mainly because we'd be going from a revised to an older, unrevised Abeka version.  We started with Master Books Level 5 after Abeka, and here we are...  I don't really care for this curriculum after using it for a few months.  

I've started to look at what we might do next year for math.

I can see how some of the methods used by Singapore could be beneficial, but it is a bit confusing to me.  I learned math the traditional US way.  

I'm honestly not sure if he would do well with Singapore, or if would confuse him---- I'm sure we could continue with traditional US math, and he'd be fine with the course work.  I am looking at Bob Jones University (BJU) middle school math.  But would he be missing some benefit if he didn't do Singapore?  After Singapore Dimensions we'd have to find a new program for Geometry or Algebra II, so does it even matter what math we used to get there, assuming he could do well with either? 

If that's the case, maybe I should stick with something that is more teachable for me.  A little voice inside my head says I can do better with traditional math, but I am willing to put in more work if it would benefit my child to switch. 

What are your thoughts?  I read so much about how the US is behind in math.  Our public school is no exception to that, so we are in our second year of homeschooling.  My son is about to turn 10, so who knows what he will do for a living, but I do want STEM careers to be options for my children----is that still possible with "traditional US math?"

Thanks for any help! 

 

 

 

[Clarita]

On 12/7/2021 at 5:51 PM, KrisTom said:

What are your thoughts?  I read so much about how the US is behind in math.  Our public school is no exception to that, so we are in our second year of homeschooling.  My son is about to turn 10, so who knows what he will do for a living, but I do want STEM careers to be options for my children----is that still possible with "traditional US math?"

Well I had a STEM career and I was educated for first through my masters in CA public schools so the answer to your question is yes it's possible with "traditional US math." (For a time reference I graduated high school and bachelors in 2000's.) 

Also note that sometimes people are really trying to sell you a math curriculum. 

[HomeAgain]

Use the math program you can teach well and your child understands.

There are always supplements you can use - Singapore even has a book on teaching mathematics that you can look through for different ideas- and there are projects you can do to bring in real world applications, but what's mostly necessary is just understanding math well.

My oldest ds used a program that many consider "light", Math U See.  He did quite well with being able to visualize math concepts and chose a math heavy major in college.  What mattered was finding a program that brought up his confidence and helped him apply the concepts outside the work pages.

[8filltheheart]

Definitely find and use math curriculum that you are comfortable teaching.  Teaching concepts is probably the biggest factor in math confidence and success, not the textbook being used.

I have strong math students who used Horizons math's K-6th grade texts (all 8 of my kids.)  I have adult kids who were/are STEM majors (careers) who were/are top students in their college math/science classes.  Horizons teaches very traditionally.  I cannot stand bar model diagrams and there was no way that using a program like SM would go over well here bc I wouldn't have been able to teach it well.  None of my kids has ever struggled with upper level math after going from Horizons on to solid texts like Foerster's.

[Porridge]

Singapore Dimensions has much less support for the homeschooling parent/teacher. In the K-6 Singapore series, there are home instructors guides that teach the parents how to teach. The Dimensions series assumes that the parent or teacher is pretty comfortable with the material. There are teaching notes in the answer book, but they are minimal.

 You can see samples on their website— that might help you figure out if the book will work for you.

[Ting Tang]

Thank you everyone for your responses!  Yes, I am not very sure about Singapore for us and my "teachability" with it.  I have now looked at Archi-Math Bulgarian Math, but I am not sure if we stopped using it for some reason why he would be placed, say after the grade 8 level.  Right Start intrigues me, mainly because I think he might enjoy the drawing.  I dislike that by middle school, though, some texts are written directly to the student because he would be taking these classes at a slightly younger age. 

 

Has anyone here tried Right Start or looked at Archi-Math Bulgarian Math?  

[kbutton]

On 12/13/2021 at 5:40 PM, WTM said:

Singapore Dimensions has much less support for the homeschooling parent/teacher. In the K-6 Singapore series, there are home instructors guides that teach the parents how to teach. The Dimensions series assumes that the parent or teacher is pretty comfortable with the material. There are teaching notes in the answer book, but they are minimal.

 You can see samples on their website— that might help you figure out if the book will work for you.

I agree. If you're not already into the sequence, but want to do something similar to Singapore, I recommend something more like Math Mammoth to complete math through middle school. There are supporting videos free online, and the text is friendly to the uninitiated. 

Right Start has an excellent reputation (I think it's Montesori-based), but we didn't use it.

[ScoutTN]

If your child is doing well in a traditional math curriculum and you are comfortable teaching it, just continue in the same vein. Ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Math curricula generally have both samples and placement tests readily available. Get two or three and see what would make a smooth transition. 

How many years out from PreAlegbra is your student? If he is accelerated, there are lots of ways to stretch him without moving ahead. 

We used Right Start K-4th (that was as far as it went back then). Not sure how it would be to try to jump in at a higher level. Definitely not a traditional American approach.

Edited January 15, 2022 by ScoutTN

[Ting Tang]

On 1/14/2022 at 8:16 PM, ScoutTN said:

If your child is doing well in a traditional math curriculum and you are comfortable teaching it, just continue in the same vein. Ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

Math curricula generally have both samples and placement tests readily available. Get two or three and see what would make a smooth transition. 

How many years out from PreAlegbra is your student? If he is accelerated, there are lots of ways to stretch him without moving ahead. 

We used Right Start K-4th (that was as far as it went back then). Not sure how it would be to try to jump in at a higher level. Definitely not a traditional American approach.

I'm sorry I am just coming back to this thread!  I continue to explore math options.  One of my concerns is my son is younger---so the appearance of pre-algebra textbooks is a bit intimidating just to me.  The print gets smaller, more condense.  I have concerns with his maturity vs. his ability.  I've looked at Right Start, and it is very heavily focused on geometry, which is great---they do have middle school levels now.  I am also considering AOPS.  But I am trying to figure out if AOPS Pre-Algebra just looks more "fun" and "interesting" to me based on a few sample excerpts.  One of the problems in a sample baffled me, so that is concerning.  But if we went that route, he could take a WTM class.  I am not sure I am ready to commit to an online class for him, though.  He is 10 now doing grade 6 math.  The whole online class thing seems like a big expectation for me to have for him right now---but AOPS doesn't have a teacher manual. Just not sure what to do next.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by Ting Tang

[ScoutTN]

Have you looked at Math Mammoth or Jousting Armadillos?

Somewhere on the Logic Stage Board, there is a Huge thread about PreA. Might be worth finding. 

[Ting Tang]

14 minutes ago, ScoutTN said:

Have you looked at Math Mammoth or Jousting Armadillos?

Somewhere on the Logic Stage Board, there is a Huge thread about PreA. Might be worth finding. 

I have not! Thank you. 😊  I will take a look at both and do that search. Most of these classes are for 8th graders. I see AOP aims for younger but accelerated. I don’t think he is gifted, though. Just ahead. 

[gradchica]

I have a just turned 10 yo who finished Singapore 6 and who decided on AOPS Pre Algebra instead of Singapore Dimensions 7, which is what his 12yo brother is doing. 

very early thoughts on this experience—he can get a bit overwhelmed with the talking through thought process/explaining why that AOPS wants. This kid is not a talker. He can enjoy challenging problems but too many can be too much for his work capacity. 

the book is….not fun, visually. At all. Dimensions is in color and does have pictures, so more engaging in that way. AOPS is engaging intellectually, especially the short explanation videos (which are more engaging for my son than reading the text or me reading the text/explaining the concept), it’s more inviting them into the fascinating world of numbers and mathematical concepts. I can’t say this excites my child, but he does like the puzzle feel of some of the problems. 

my only other comparison is Dimensions, which was an easy transition from 5 to Dimensions 6. 7 has no teacher explanations, just solutions, which can be challenging. 

[Porridge]

 

1 hour ago, Ting Tang said:

I'm sorry I am just coming back to this thread!  I continue to explore math options.  One of my concerns is my son is younger---so the appearance of pre-algebra textbooks is a bit intimidating just to me.  The print gets smaller, more condense.  I have concerns with his maturity vs. his ability.  I've looked at Right Start, and it is very heavily focused on geometry, which is great---they do have middle school levels now.  I am also considering AOPS.  But I am trying to figure out if AOPS Pre-Algebra just looks more "fun" and "interesting" to me based on a few sample excerpts.  One of the problems in a sample baffled me, so that is concerning.  But if we went that route, he could take a WTM class.  I am not sure I am ready to commit to an online class for him, though.  He is 10 now doing grade 6 math.  The whole online class thing seems like a big expectation for me to have for him right now---but AOPS doesn't have a teacher manual. Just not sure what to do next.  

AOPS is more of a discovery approach, where the student learns mathematical principles through the problem solving process. It is a different approach from traditional math where the concept is directly taught. 

Different kids might use AOPS in different ways.  My daughter had gone through Beast Academy 3-5, so she was familiar with the “puzzle” feel of AOPS.  She started AOPS pre-Alg around 9 years old and was able to do it largely independently, though she took 1.5 years to complete it. She did not like the videos, so she would read the chapter, studying the problems and examples carefully before moving on to the problem set.  She did all (or most?) of the challenge problems because she has a high degree of math-curiosity and isn’t easily frustrated. 

I know some people use it with only the review problems and without the challenge problems.

I was worried that the lack of pictures, and “boring” layout would be a problem for my daughter, but I think she found the content interesting enough that she didn’t care what it looked like.

I chose not to use AOPS with my younger child, because he has a different learning style. He went through Singapore Standards 1-5, then moved to Dimensions 6 at age 10. He just finished Dimensions 7. It was a fairly straightforward transition for him. I thought he might have trouble with the smaller font and less “Fun” appearance of the text, but it was fine.  I would often write on the whiteboard as we did sample problems together - that helped him to stay focused. 

Even though there is no teacher’s manual for DImensions, I didn’t find it difficult to teach. The textbook is pretty clear. I also saw that they recently added teaching videos to their website - that could be a resource for you if you need help understanding how to present a concept, or if your child prefers to learn from a video.  They don’t have videos for the whole Dimensions series yet, but it looks like they plan to.

I think that neither my daughter or son would have done well in an online class at age 9 or 10. Every kid is different, but mine were either too wiggly or hated the screen too much. If your gut tells you an online class might be problematic, I would trust your gut. Especially since your child is so young (10), there’s no rush to get them online. 

[Ting Tang]

56 minutes ago, gradchica said:

I have a just turned 10 yo who finished Singapore 6 and who decided on AOPS Pre Algebra instead of Singapore Dimensions 7, which is what his 12yo brother is doing. 

very early thoughts on this experience—he can get a bit overwhelmed with the talking through thought process/explaining why that AOPS wants. This kid is not a talker. He can enjoy challenging problems but too many can be too much for his work capacity. 

the book is….not fun, visually. At all. Dimensions is in color and does have pictures, so more engaging in that way. AOPS is engaging intellectually, especially the short explanation videos (which are more engaging for my son than reading the text or me reading the text/explaining the concept), it’s more inviting them into the fascinating world of numbers and mathematical concepts. I can’t say this excites my child, but he does like the puzzle feel of some of the problems. 

my only other comparison is Dimensions, which was an easy transition from 5 to Dimensions 6. 7 has no teacher explanations, just solutions, which can be challenging. 

Thank you so much for this review! I was hoping the font was bigger, and I do like the color blocking. But…. I’m just not sure he will enjoy the discovery approach. I want him to be clear on what he’s learning. On the other hand, the videos are something I think he’d enjoy. At least there is that help! I know I’d have to get ahead of him on it, though, if I’m going to teach it. Are there assessments/tests? 

[Ting Tang]

33 minutes ago, WTM said:

 

AOPS is more of a discovery approach, where the student learns mathematical principles through the problem solving process. It is a different approach from traditional math where the concept is directly taught. 

Different kids might use AOPS in different ways.  My daughter had gone through Beast Academy 3-5, so she was familiar with the “puzzle” feel of AOPS.  She started AOPS pre-Alg around 9 years old and was able to do it largely independently, though she took 1.5 years to complete it. She did not like the videos, so she would read the chapter, studying the problems and examples carefully before moving on to the problem set.  She did all (or most?) of the challenge problems because she has a high degree of math-curiosity and isn’t easily frustrated. 

I know some people use it with only the review problems and without the challenge problems.

I was worried that the lack of pictures, and “boring” layout would be a problem for my daughter, but I think she found the content interesting enough that she didn’t care what it looked like.

I chose not to use AOPS with my younger child, because he has a different learning style. He went through Singapore Standards 1-5, then moved to Dimensions 6 at age 10. He just finished Dimensions 7. It was a fairly straightforward transition for him. I thought he might have trouble with the smaller font and less “Fun” appearance of the text, but it was fine.  I would often write on the whiteboard as we did sample problems together - that helped him to stay focused. 

Even though there is no teacher’s manual for DImensions, I didn’t find it difficult to teach. The textbook is pretty clear. I also saw that they recently added teaching videos to their website - that could be a resource for you if you need help understanding how to present a concept, or if your child prefers to learn from a video.  They don’t have videos for the whole Dimensions series yet, but it looks like they plan to.

I think that neither my daughter or son would have done well in an online class at age 9 or 10. Every kid is different, but mine were either too wiggly or hated the screen too much. If your gut tells you an online class might be problematic, I would trust your gut. Especially since your child is so young (10), there’s no rush to get them online. 

Thank you very much for sharing! I wouldn’t mind if we took longer with it, either. I just want it to be clear enough that he would be able to know what he’s learning and apply it, should he be tested. Are there assessments/tests with the book do you recall? And yes, we tried a lit class for six weeks one day a week. It was ok, but I can’t see him doing it 3 days a week just yet. I worry about zoning out. Though, if we did delayed lectures, maybe I could watch with him. Hmm 

[8filltheheart]

I'm completely unfamiliar with Master Books, so I don't know what their 6th grade curriculum covers, but after reading your posts, I thought I'd share the approach I have taken from my kids. It is far removed from the SM followed by AoPS path, so it might not be an approach you want to take.  But, fwiw, I have STEM kids who took this approach and excelled/are excelling at college (a chemE and an atmospheric science major).  I have another ds who took this approach through alg 2 and then switched over to AoPS.  

I like to be actively involved in teaching my kids math through alg 2.  I need to use an approach that allows me to teach.  I also have kids who have been quite advanced.  I used Horizons for k-6th plus Hands On Equations Verbal Problems for more challenging word problems that solve via simple alg type equations vs bar diagrams.  By the time my kids finish Horizons 6 they have been ready for a math more challenging than a typical pre-alg program but they have been young and a typical high school alg book presentation would have completely overwhelmed them.  I have used MUS's alg and geo for pre-alg and pre-geo and then they are ready for a standard alg textbook.  I have used Foerster's for alg 1 and 2.  For geo I have used a couple of different books (Jacobs and Alexander).   

My current 6th grader sounds fairly similar to your 10 yr old.  She completed Horizons 6 in 4th grade.  In 5th she completed MUS's alg and geo.  This yr in 6th she is working through Foersters alg 1.

 I have a ds who thrived on math and loved spending hrs puzzling through math.  He switched to AoPS intermediate alg in 8th grade after finishing Foerster's alg 2.  He stuck with AoPS through cal.  My other kids, while excellent math students, don't have his enjoyment of spending hrs thinking about math.  They prefer to be taught and then figure out how to apply.  Both approaches have served them well respectively.  Ds who loved AoPS pursued physics (theoretical).  The others, more applied math.  

All that to say, you really need to know the child in front of you.  My youngest dd is my most gifted child.  She excels in everything.  BUT, if I tried to put her in AoPS, I know that it would be a horrible fit.  I have found other ways to challenge her that enable her to thrive and enjoy the challenge.  She plays the violin and takes Russian.  She enjoys both, yet both require more effort than anything else she does.

[Porridge]

33 minutes ago, Ting Tang said:

Thank you very much for sharing! I wouldn’t mind if we took longer with it, either. I just want it to be clear enough that he would be able to know what he’s learning and apply it, should he be tested. Are there assessments/tests with the book do you recall? And yes, we tried a lit class for six weeks one day a week. It was ok, but I can’t see him doing it 3 days a week just yet. I worry about zoning out. Though, if we did delayed lectures, maybe I could watch with him. Hmm 

Do you mean assessments with Singapore Dimensions, or for AOPS?

Singapore publishes test books that you can purchase in their K-6 curriculum. I never used those because it was clear to me whether my child knew the material or not. Dimensions, as far as I know, has no test books. However, there is a “review problem set” at the end of each chapter. You could easily use that as a test.  Dimensions series has a textbook that has all the problem sets included in the textbook.  There is a supplemental work book that you can also buy. The workbook has more practice problems, as well as more challenging problems (more challenging than you will find in the textbook).  I used only the textbook and textbook problems for my son. We then go through selected problems from  the workbook as a review. But, you could also use selected problems from the workbook as “test” material. Just keep in mind some of the problems in the workbook will be harder than what you’ll find in the textbook.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Singapore series, but I think of the Dimensions Workbook as akin to the Intensive Practice books.

 

For AOPS, there are no assessments or tests built in to the curriculum. I would not recommend using the challenge problems at the end of each chapter for test material - they are very, very difficult, and not being able to solve them does not necessarily mean your child doesn’t have a decent grasp of the concepts.  If you want test material for AOPS, you could consider using their online practice platform, Alcumus.

HTH

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

I'm completely unfamiliar with Master Books, so I don't know what their 6th grade curriculum covers, but after reading your posts, I thought I'd share the approach I have taken from my kids. It is far removed from the SM followed by AoPS path, so it might not be an approach you want to take.  But, fwiw, I have STEM kids who took this approach and excelled/are excelling at college (a chemE and an atmospheric science major).  I have another ds who took this approach through alg 2 and then switched over to AoPS.  

I like to be actively involved in teaching my kids math through alg 2.  I need to use an approach that allows me to teach.  I also have kids who have been quite advanced.  I used Horizons for k-6th plus Hands On Equations Verbal Problems for more challenging word problems that solve via simple alg type equations vs bar diagrams.  By the time my kids finish Horizons 6 they have been ready for a math more challenging than a typical pre-alg program but they have been young and a typical high school alg book presentation would have completely overwhelmed them.  I have used MUS's alg and geo for pre-alg and pre-geo and then they are ready for a standard alg textbook.  I have used Foerster's for alg 1 and 2.  For geo I have used a couple of different books (Jacobs and Alexander).   

My current 6th grader sounds fairly similar to your 10 yr old.  She completed Horizons 6 in 4th grade.  In 5th she completed MUS's alg and geo.  This yr in 6th she is working through Foersters alg 1.

 I have a ds who thrived on math and loved spending hrs puzzling through math.  He switched to AoPS intermediate alg in 8th grade after finishing Foerster's alg 2.  He stuck with AoPS through cal.  My other kids, while excellent math students, don't have his enjoyment of spending hrs thinking about math.  They prefer to be taught and then figure out how to apply.  Both approaches have served them well respectively.  Ds who loved AoPS pursued physics (theoretical).  The others, more applied math.  

All that to say, you really need to know the child in front of you.  My youngest dd is my most gifted child.  She excels in everything.  BUT, if I tried to put her in AoPS, I know that it would be a horrible fit.  I have found other ways to challenge her that enable her to thrive and enjoy the challenge.  She plays the violin and takes Russian.  She enjoys both, yet both require more effort than anything else she does.

Thank you so much for sharing!  I will certainly take a look at those programs for pre-algebra.  I read for the WTM Academy, students spend up to 90 minutes per day on math.  I also like to be in control and would like to be able to teach math.  On the other hand, should he return to a school, I thought it might be handy to have someone else grading him. That is interesting to me that your daughter was able to complete both MUS Algebra and Geography in one year.  Maybe that is an option for me!  

[Ting Tang]

3 hours ago, WTM said:

Do you mean assessments with Singapore Dimensions, or for AOPS?

Singapore publishes test books that you can purchase in their K-6 curriculum. I never used those because it was clear to me whether my child knew the material or not. Dimensions, as far as I know, has no test books. However, there is a “review problem set” at the end of each chapter. You could easily use that as a test.  Dimensions series has a textbook that has all the problem sets included in the textbook.  There is a supplemental work book that you can also buy. The workbook has more practice problems, as well as more challenging problems (more challenging than you will find in the textbook).  I used only the textbook and textbook problems for my son. We then go through selected problems from  the workbook as a review. But, you could also use selected problems from the workbook as “test” material. Just keep in mind some of the problems in the workbook will be harder than what you’ll find in the textbook.

I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Singapore series, but I think of the Dimensions Workbook as akin to the Intensive Practice books.

 

For AOPS, there are no assessments or tests built in to the curriculum. I would not recommend using the challenge problems at the end of each chapter for test material - they are very, very difficult, and not being able to solve them does not necessarily mean your child doesn’t have a decent grasp of the concepts.  If you want test material for AOPS, you could consider using their online practice platform, Alcumus.

HTH

I apologize.  I was typing on my phone, but I meant AOPS.  It seems like Singapore has more "tools" for us.  It sounds like I would have to figure out a way to use the AOPS materials to 'assess' my son, as long as they were regular review problems?  One of my concerns is if he does go to a regular school, I was told we might need to show test grades in addition to work, though I understand he'd likely be tested for math anyway.  AOPS seems to different.  But if it is "honors," I am hoping he'd be able to apply it to a test. I will take a look at some of your suggestions with the AOP material, such as the practice platform. Thank you so much for sharing all of this great information! 

[Shoes+Ships+SealingWax]

6 hours ago, Ting Tang said:

AOPS doesn't have a teacher manual

It doesn’t have a TM, however it does have every single problem fully worked out step-by-step in the Solution Manual (not just answers) so that you could guide your student, or even yourself, through any befuddling material. 

[Ting Tang]

37 minutes ago, Shoes+Ships+SealingWax said:

It doesn’t have a TM, however it does have every single problem fully worked out step-by-step in the Solution Manual (not just answers) so that you could guide your student, or even yourself, through any befuddling material. 

Thank you! I’ve read some solution manuals fall short here, too. But I did just read a thread that said it’s for super geniuses, with a few disagreements, lol. 

[Brittany1116]

Have you considered Christian Light @Ting Tang? My son went from their 600s to testing into Saxon Algebra 1. We did LOF fractions, decimals, and percents for a few months between the two because I was nervous about starting high school math at 10, but it was no big deal. CLE has placement tests for free online and grades 6-8 all touch on prealgebra concepts.

[Ting Tang]

12 minutes ago, Brittany1116 said:

Have you considered Christian Light @Ting Tang? My son went from their 600s to testing into Saxon Algebra 1. We did LOF fractions, decimals, and percents for a few months between the two because I was nervous about starting high school math at 10, but it was no big deal. CLE has placement tests for free online and grades 6-8 all touch on prealgebra concepts.

I have looked at it but should revisit it again. We’ve been working on those subjects! I’ll look at that and then Saxon. Thank you!