Writing question for DC who might go to B and M high school

[Porridge]

DD is currently a rising 8th grader. She might end up going to brick and mortar high school for 9th because she's curious about the social aspects of school (we've always homeschooled). There is a non-negligible chance that she may end up coming back home for school after 9th, but I don't want to assume that will be the case.

If this was your last year to homeschool, and your child was a rising 8th grader, what would you prioritize with regards to writing? DD did 2/3rds of WWS2 last year and we were planning to finish the last 12 weeks this coming year. I was then planning to have her do WWS3 (or whatever we could get through - probably at least 2/3rd of the book) before highschool, because it seems to provide a great foundation for high school writing. At the same time, DD is really curious about Windows to the World (she saw it on my bookshelf) and The Creative Writer (from Peace Hill Press). Would you try to fit in the more academic writing (WWS) in this potentially last year of homeschooling? Or would you just say, "let's have fun this last year that my baby is home," and let her do the more "fun" or fun-to-her programs (Windows to the World / The Creative Writer)?

 

[Lori D.]

Yes. If you did Windows to the World and The Creative Writer in 8th grade, she'll be fine for high school.

The main things she will need for writing in high school:

1. realize writing is a process, and to be willing/able to come back to the same piece of writing for revision (major fixes) -- sometimes several times -- AND to be solid with proof-editing (small fixes)

2. be able to write in complete sentences and complete paragraphs (so, understand basic paragraph structure, and write with a variety of sentence types to keep her writing interesting)

3. be able to generate a complete thesis statement in the intro paragraph:
- topic [overall subject of the paper]
- claim [your thought/opinion/position on the topic]
- direction [the major points of support or of your argument that will be developed in the body of the paper]

4. be able to write paragraphs of support for each point of the argument for the thesis claim, which includes:
- topic sentence (state which point of the argument will be fleshed out in the paragraph)
- sentences of support/evidence (examples, quotations, facts/data, anecdotes, etc.)
- sentence of commentary after each piece of support/evidence (how/why the evidence supports the point of the paragraph)
- sentence of concluding commentary (how/why the point of the paragraph supports or shows the thesis claim)


And, just a quick off-topic aside:

If hopping back and forth between homeschool/public school is on the radar, DO check with the public school about whether or not they accept homeschool credits -- you don't want to end. up in the boat of having tried 9th grade at public school, return to homeschool for 10th (and/or 11th grade) and it's not working out, and want to return to public school.

For some schools, it is "all or nothing", as they place students at the back at the last grade level where the student was last in high school. (So, if she completes 9th at the school, 10th at home, and then wants to return, if that is the school's restrictive policy, she would have to repeat 10th grade, regardless of how advanced her homeschool credits had been.) For other schools, they require the student to take and pass the end-of-year exam for each and every credit the student wants on their transcript.

Also, if sports are part of the plan in high school, make sure that she could continue to play as a homeschooler -- some school districts don't allow homeschoolers.
 

[kirstenhill]

My oldest DD entered public school in 8th grade and my oldest DS will enter public school in the fall in 9th grade.  I asked my DD what she thought DS14 would need to be successful in 9th grade English (he's more of a STEM guy so English classes are not as much his strong suit), and she said the key thing they did in her 8th grade class that was expected to already be experienced in for 9th grade was writing the typical literary analysis essay of 7-10 paragraphs in length. 

YMMV, but this was an experience between two different school districts (8th grade was in one city, 9th in another).  In 8th grade the teacher walked the students through step-by-step, had class discussions about the same topics they would write about, talked about different texts that might support the thesis, etc.  They didn't have to generate their own thesis statement at the beginning of the year - they could pick from a list.  I think they were generating them with help by the end of 8th grade.   In 9th grade they were expected to basically already be familiar with how to write this type of essay (a minimal amount of review, but probably wouldn't have been enough if a student had never done it before) , and were generating their own thesis statements from a suggested range of topics about a given novel, though at first they were given help generating the thesis statements

I'm not familiar enough with WWS to know if it teaches that format, but if not I would look for something that teaches that format. 

[Lori D.]

4 minutes ago, kirstenhill said:

... writing the typical literary analysis essay of 7-10 paragraphs in length...
... generating their own thesis statements from a suggested range of topics about a given novel...
...I'm not familiar enough with WWS to know if it teaches that format, but if not I would look for something that teaches that format. 

Yes, Windows to the World does that. The unit on writing the literary analysis essay even has a general"thesis statement generator" that would work for most works of literature, if you get stuck. 😉 

[Lucy the Valiant]

^ 100% agree with Lori on Windows to the World. (We used it as pre-AP Lit here, actually, and it was both enjoyable and appropriately rigorous.)

[Porridge]

4 hours ago, Lori D. said:

If hopping back and forth between homeschool/public school is on the radar, DO check with the public school about whether or not they accept homeschool credits -- you don't want to end. up in the boat of having tried 9th grade at public school, return to homeschool for 10th (and/or 11th grade) and it's not working out, and want to return to public school.

For some schools, it is "all or nothing", as they place students at the back at the last grade level where the student was last in high school. (So, if she completes 9th at the school, 10th at home, and then wants to return, if that is the school's restrictive policy, she would have to repeat 10th grade, regardless of how advanced her homeschool credits had been.) For other schools, they require the student to take and pass the end-of-year exam for each and every credit the student wants on their transcript.

Also, if sports are part of the plan in high school, make sure that she could continue to play as a homeschooler -- some school districts don't allow homeschoolers.
 

Thanks @Lori D. - yes, we have been cautioned to look into this issue. Our school district was kind of opaque about it when I asked. I've had enough interaction with the district to know that there is no set policy, and being told one thing by one person may not mean that thing will be held valid by another administrator.  I've set DD"s expecations as such -- we can try highschool in 9th, if you decide to return to homeschool, that decision will likely need to hold for the rest of highschool. We are not expecting to be able to go back to brick and mortar highschool if she returns home.

[AmandaVT]

If she's going to a school that uses common core, she'll be expected to write narrative, informational, and argumentative essays. This is an example of how the district I work grades argumentative essays in high school.

 

[Porridge]

Thank you all!

@kirstenhill, I'm a little surprised that rising 9th graders would be expected to already have some experience with the literary analysis essay -- I don't recall that as part of my middle / high school experience going to top-rated public schools, but that was many moons ago.... Your experience would make me lean more towards WttW (though I had originally been planning to push that to high school when we thought DD would be home for highschool). WWS does introduce literary analysis, though in a very hand-holding fashion (from what I've seen in WWS2).

@AmandaVT, do you know of any good resource that defines and summarizes the major components of the major genres of academic writing? You mention narrative, informational, and argumentative. I'm wondering how people define these genres and what the cardinal features of these types of essays. The grading rubric you provided above gives me a good idea of the cardinal features for an argumentative essay. Do you know of similar rubrics for the other types of academic writing that I could look over? I realize that no one definition is completely authoritative. I'm just trying to get an idea. WWS is great, but sometimes I feel I can't see the forest for the trees.

[Porridge]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:51 PM, Lori D. said:

3. be able to generate a complete thesis statement in the intro paragraph:
- topic [overall subject of the paper]
- claim [your thought/opinion/position on the topic]
- direction [the major points of support or of your argument that will be developed in the body of the paper]

4. be able to write paragraphs of support for each point of the argument for the thesis claim, which includes:
- topic sentence (state which point of the argument will be fleshed out in the paragraph)
- sentences of support/evidence (examples, quotations, facts/data, anecdotes, etc.)
- sentence of commentary after each piece of support/evidence (how/why the evidence supports the point of the paragraph)
- sentence of concluding commentary (how/why the point of the paragraph supports or shows the thesis claim)

 

@Lori D., your guidance on another question I posted last year was super helpful. Thank you!

[AmandaVT]

@WTM - here are the PIs for Narrative and Informational that we use. There are also PIs on editing/planning/revising, and caps/punctuation/spelling. Hope that helps!

 

 

 

[Mrskitty76]

I would not suggest taking it more easy in 8th. If she will end up going to a B&M school, she needs to feel ready for how structured her life could get. You can always take a more fun year for her senior year of high school!

[Roadrunner]

Having known kids at a supposedly highly ranked high school with straight A's, I wouldn't worry at all. I would make sure she can write an essay. If you find WWS a good fit, stay the course and just add in a resource on writing essays. 

Mine is entering high school next year as well. I am not concerned at all. 

[prairiewindmomma]

My 9th grader was expected to write a MLA documented paper during the first two weeks of 9th grade. He then went on to write MLA cited papers across nearly all of his subjects, with an average of about one cited paper due a week through the school year. While there was some grading leniency according to style (transitions, openers/closers, specificity of thought), the mechanics were expected to be fully in place.

Many kids have coherent voices in their writing by 8th grade. I'd worry less on which curricula to use, or which subject to write in, but get your student doing cited papers.  It takes a few to get the groove down.  I'd especially make sure they know how to cite webpages and online books as that came up frequently in source material.

[Lecka]

We moved between 9th and 10th grade and here my son was supposed to be doing citations, and he had not done them before.

His teacher did not think it was a problem.

I think the teacher might have provided the end citation for my son to copy and paste.  

He was counted off in the sense of needing to correct it, but it wasn’t lowering his grade, and the teacher understood he hadn’t done it before.

I think it’s good advice but I also think — if a student is doing well overall, a lot of teachers will understand.

The teacher was pleased with my son’s writing and classroom participation overall.  

Edit:  I think the teacher just went over it with him when he looked at his rough drafts and then he got the hang of it over time.  

Edited July 7, 2021 by Lecka

[Roadrunner]

28 minutes ago, prairiewindmomma said:

My 9th grader was expected to write a MLA documented paper during the first two weeks of 9th grade. He then went on to write MLA cited papers across nearly all of his subjects, with an average of about one cited paper due a week through the school year. While there was some grading leniency according to style (transitions, openers/closers, specificity of thought), the mechanics were expected to be fully in place.

Many kids have coherent voices in their writing by 8th grade. I'd worry less on which curricula to use, or which subject to write in, but get your student doing cited papers.  It takes a few to get the groove down.  I'd especially make sure they know how to cite webpages and online books as that came up frequently in source material.

So the experience is very different here.

Yes, knowing how to cite is important. I believe WWS covers it very thoroughly. It goes without saying that you should be able to cite sources for your essay. 

Here even Honors English requires no more than 3 papers a semester. And freshmen are only allowed APHUG, the easiest AP anybody could take. Yes it has writing,  but it is in no way overwhelming. Math/science/foreign language doesn’t have any paper requirements, and electives allowed in 9th are more fun ones (digital music….). 

[Porridge]

10 hours ago, Roadrunner said:

Having known kids at a supposedly highly ranked high school with straight A's, I wouldn't worry at all. I would make sure she can write an essay. If you find WWS a good fit, stay the course and just add in a resource on writing essays. 

Mine is entering high school next year as well. I am not concerned at all. 

WWS dues a great job of teaching citations- DD is pretty comfortable with them even though we haven’t finished WWS2 yet.  I do think she sometimes misses the first for the trees with WWS, so perhaps looking into an essay resource would be good.

Re: essays—  What does the hive think of the Elegant Essay or Windows to the World as potential essay resources? (I don’t feel confident enough to teach essays writing on my own. I buy curriculum so I can feel like someone is holding my hand, then tweak it to suit the DC). I’ve also been seeing Lantern English recommended by other boardies - would Lantern be a rigorous and solid resource for essays? (DD picks things up pretty quickly, FWIW)

Doing both WWS and another essay resource seems like a lot…

[kirstenhill]

7 hours ago, WTM said:

 

Re: essays—  What does the hive think of the Elegant Essay or Windows to the World as potential essay resources? (I don’t feel confident enough to teach essays writing on my own. I buy curriculum so I can feel like someone is holding my hand, then tweak it to suit the DC). I’ve also been seeing Lantern English recommended by other boardies - would Lantern be a rigorous and solid resource for essays? (DD picks things up pretty quickly, FWIW)

Doing both WWS and another essay resource seems like a lot…

I bought the IEW Elegant Essay (not sure if there is more than one with that name?), and returned it because it did not look like something I thought would be helpful.  I haven't tried Windows to the World.  We tried "Beyond the Book Report Season 3", (published by Analytical Grammar), and it was ok. It did teach the literary essay format.  I felt like it was more designed for a teacher with a class than a parent at home, or maybe it just didn't fit my style. DS14 took a class that used Lost Tools of Writing as its base this past year, and it worked really well for him (his essays improved quite a bit), but I don't know how much was the curriculum and how much was what the instructor brought to it. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by kirstenhill
Typo

[Roadrunner]

We used Lively Art of Writing and loved it.

Here is an old thread that has a workbook (we didn’t use it). 

 

[Roadrunner]

I just want to add the reason we didn’t use the workbook for Lively Art of Writing. We didn’t love the exercises at all. The book is somewhat outdated. However, it’s the best resource I have seen that really walks you through the essay writing process, including a great chapter on how to write a thesis. So we used the book as a textbook (it’s tiny by the way so you can read through it in a week) and applied it’s teaching to essays he was writing for his CLRC lit classes. 

Edited July 8, 2021 by Roadrunner

[Lori D.]

8 hours ago, WTM said:

...  What does the hive think of the Elegant Essay or Windows to the World as potential essay resources?
... I’ve also been seeing Lantern English recommended by other boardies - would Lantern be a rigorous and solid resource for essays? ...

I do keep hearing good things about the Lantern Writing classes. @wendyroo had some detailed information in her posts in these past threads:
"Lantern English Writing Classes"
"7th grade writing" -- 2 back to back posts, with her experiences with Lantern, WWS, and IEW

Windows to the World has a unit on writing the literary analysis essay that is the best step by step instruction for a beginner that I've seen. It even has a general "thesis generator" where you fill in the blanks using suggestions listed below each blank, so that you get a complete thesis, or can at least see what one type of a complete thesis would look like.

I have since created my own teaching information, lessons, assignments, and rubrics for teaching writing to gr. 7-12 students at the homeschool co-op.