I still can't get on track with my 8th grader's writing/LA...

[Colleen]

I spent much of the summer break trying to decide what direction to go with my 8th grader's writing/"language arts". By the time we left for a September vacation, I hadn't arrived at any grand conclusions. Here it is December (how did that happen?:tongue_smilie:) and I'm still muddled. Part of me is concerned that he's not doing enough writing. Another part feels he's a competent writer and believes that much of the writing doled out to students is a colossal waste of time.

 

On the grammar front, he's well-grounded, having used R&S English for a number of years. (I'm not using R&S with my other boys, though.) He's working through Nancy Wilson's Our Mother Tongue as a means of review and reinforcement; I highly recommend this book, btw. He occasionally outlines sections of reading, but I'm not big on continual outlining. He's capable of writing a basic five-paragraph essay, which I have him do from time to time. We do freewriting once a week, as well as dictation; even at his age, I appreciate the imitative benefits of dictation. Research papers....I'm "iffy" as to value of these, to be honest. I produced so many research papers as a student, most of which were the usual regurgitation and not particularly useful in the grand scheme of things.

 

I've mentioned before that I'm a friend and fan of Julie Bogart, of Bravewriter. I've not yet used any of her online courses but will likely have Jan take one this next semester. I also plan to buy her book Help for High School, which promises to be useful.

 

Beyond this, I don't know...I can't decide if what I'm doing is sufficient or not. I own The Lively Art of Writing, but don't know if/how to use it. Jan read the first bit and frankly, I don't think he's old enough yet to have it make an impression. I also don't see how to put into practice in a meaningful way.

 

Any-hoo. This is somewhat rambling. Thinking aloud and open to any feedback.:)

Edited December 7, 2008 by Colleen

[Karen in CO]

First, you have read the encouragement thread about 8th graders, right?

 

What does the rest of his homeschool look like?

 

You said his grammar is solid. He can write a 5 paragraph essay. He does dictation and outlines. What other subjects is he doing? What elements of LA do you think you are missing?

 

My ds took a Bravewriter online course, I thought it was great. I am terrible at evaluating his writing - I just think he is terrific which isn't very helpful. During his high school years we only had two outside writing courses, but they gave us some perspective on what he needed to improve.

[Michelle in AL]

Hi Colleen, it sounds like you're doing a good job to me. He's writing every week, and I too see the value of dictation. It forces them to really apply what they know.

 

This is the first yr I've been happy with my kid's writing. I've really seen progress. I think part of this is maturity (the oldest is in 9th and the youngest has always written well). The oldest was shocked into applying herself when she got a poor grade on her first essay for an online class (her first outside class). Since then she's really tried hard.

 

I teach a literature class and the writing my students have enjoyed the most and excelled at is modeling. We've used The Writer's Workshop Imitating Your Way to Better Writing. This book is excellent, but gets difficult quite quickly, so I switched to Write With the Bestby Dixon. They both base their writing lessons based on an element of literature such as describing the setting, describing a character, writing dialogue, writing a short story etc. I try to apply a writing lesson from one of these curricula to whatever book we're reading. That seems to make it more pertinent. So, if we're reading a novel that does a particularly good job of describing the setting, we do the lesson from Write with the best on writing a descriptive paragraph-describing a place.

 

This may not be how he learns best, and you may not want to put that much time into teaching it. In that case, the online Bravewriter class could be wonderful. My dd loves her online classes and they are great sources of outside motivation. I can't tell you how much I've seen her grow to reach the teacher's expectations~with me she doesn't care.

 

I do want to restate that it sounds like you're doing well. 8th grade is kind of a strange in between yr, not quite the rigor of high school, but all the pressure to get the student ready for the next yr, not really knowing if you're doing it right.

[Colleen]

First, you have read the encouragement thread about 8th graders, right?

 

Yes, I read it, but it was more discouraging than encouraging to me. Or not discouraging, per se. I just seem to be in a different place than many here. I don't think writing a short expository essay in 8th grade is necessary, for example. I don't have any idea what is meant by having students "make and use some sort of study guides", so apparently it must not be important to me.;) I have not found it necessary for my oldest to keep an assignment book in order to be responsible for his work. (I never in my life kept an assignment book, either, btw.)

 

What does the rest of his homeschool look like? You said his grammar is solid. He can write a 5 paragraph essay. He does dictation and outlines. What other subjects is he doing? What elements of LA do you think you are missing?

 

I don't know that he's missing anything; I just have this sense (usually when I read this board, LOL) that he may not be doing enough in the LA department. Language arts ~ and 8th grade ~ seem to be this rather vague, nebulous in-between subject/time, if you kwim. His studies include: Spelling Workout H (finishing this up); Vocab from Classical Roots B; Lial's Introductory Algebra; Our Mother Tongue (mentioned in my previous post); German via Oklahoma State's online course; Apologia Physical Science; and Sonlight Core 7 (World History, Part 2).

 

My ds took a Bravewriter online course, I thought it was great. I am terrible at evaluating his writing - I just think he is terrific which isn't very helpful. During his high school years we only had two outside writing courses, but they gave us some perspective on what he needed to improve.

 

Yes, I'm looking forward to that outside perspective through Bravewriter. Glad to hear your good review! Thanks, too, for your reply here.

Edited December 8, 2008 by Colleen

[Colleen]

Hi Colleen, it sounds like you're doing a good job to me. He's writing every week, and I too see the value of dictation. It forces them to really apply what they know.

 

Yes, I see such value in dictation ~ and copywork, when they're younger.

 

I teach a literature class and the writing my students have enjoyed the most and excelled at is modeling. We've used The Writer's Workshop Imitating Your Way to Better Writing. This book is excellent, but gets difficult quite quickly, so I switched to Write With the Bestby Dixon. They both base their writing lessons based on an element of literature such as describing the setting, describing a character, writing dialogue, writing a short story etc. I try to apply a writing lesson from one of these curricula to whatever book we're reading. That seems to make it more pertinent. So, if we're reading a novel that does a particularly good job of describing the setting, we do the lesson from Write with the best on writing a descriptive paragraph-describing a place.

 

Thank you for those suggestions! I find modeling is an excellent means of teaching writing, so I'm always interested in resources like this.

 

I do want to restate that it sounds like you're doing well. 8th grade is kind of a strange in between yr, not quite the rigor of high school, but all the pressure to get the student ready for the next yr, not really knowing if you're doing it right.

 

Yes! I just replied above and said the same thing. Eighth grade feels like such a nebulous year. I appreciate your input.

[Karen in CO]

 

I don't know that he's missing anything; I just have this sense (usually when I read this board, LOL) that he may not be doing enough in the LA department. Language arts ~ and 8th grade ~ seem to be this rather vague, nebulous in-between subject/time, if you kwim.

 

I think LA is nebulous everywhere. What is the art part of it anyway? I'm more of a science person.

 

He reads, can talk about what he reads, could write abut what he read if so inclined? He has opinions about what he reads? He has learned something about plots, character, setting. He is learning how to understand what a poem is about? (Can you tell I am trying to remember what was in that prep book for the SAT II Literature subject exam?) I am on the other end of high school from you.

 

Really, for my ds for eighth grade we read Sonlight books and used Writing Strands which I don't like for writing. He did Wordly Wise and switched to Vocabulary from Classical Roots. That and math is all that we did for 8th grade. Other than that he played video games, did competitive soccer, rode his skateboard, and drew lots of cartoons. 8th grade isn't hard and LA isn't magical or complex. If you don't think he is missing anything then he probably isn't.

[Beth in SW WA]

I don't think writing a short expository essay in 8th grade is necessary, for example. ]

 

It probably depends on your goals for 9th and beyond. What type of writing will be expected next year?

[at the beach]

Colleen,

 

I don't have an 8th grader that I am hs yet, but I have a dd who is newly 12, and I have recently had this vague uneasiness about writing. I just wanted to share that I recently read Homeschooling for Excellence by the Colfaxes, and I found it very reassuring in this regard. They recommend daily journal writing, Strunk and White's The Elements of Style (kids actually reading it and more than once) and Zinsser's On Writing Well. With kids struggling, Writing Down the Bones is suggested. I just thought that perhaps, if nothing more, reading the Colfaxes thoughts, if you haven't already, might give you the reassurance you need to feel comfortable with what you are doing.

 

Best wishes,

Anita

[HollyinNNV]

Colleen,

 

I understand your frustration. When parents express these types of frustrations to me, (and I hear them often because I run a writing co-op) I ask them to try and gauge what they want their child to be able to do when they enter college. Then I suggest they work backwards.

 

Unless you do not think your child is college-bound, you should really order your priorities around getting them ready to succeed in the college atmosphere. Whether you or I think research reports are important or not is probably beside the point. Is this a skill that we want our kids to have upon entering college. How fluent should they be in writing research reports? At what difficulty level should they be able to write? For example, a report about whales is far less difficult to write than a report emphasizing the importance of the Krebs Cycle. And many kids can write a report over the span of four weeks, but are they also able to churn out reports quickly and meet a deadline? Similarly, kids often write easily on topics they enjoy, but can they write on assigned topics that they dislike?

 

So, I guess my suggestion would be to look far into the future and decide what you want your child to be able to accomplish (and how fluently) in five years. Then work to that goal.

Holly

[Chris in VA]

Hi Colleen,

I just wanted to say that my ds19 took a Write@Home class on Essays last year, and used Lively Art. If your son is already writing a 5 para essay, the book won't really be of much use. The research paper part is ok, but just not applicable to 8th grade. Mine needed lots of help, so LA was good for him, but WAH didn't use it very effectively.

If yours can come up with a thesis statement, that's half the battle in any expository writing, isn't it?

Sounds like you have done an excellent job. I'm guessing the next step (in hi shc) will be to learn to write about literature. I'd like to know what you use for that.

[FloridaLisa]

I recall being a bit "muddled" about my ds1's writing in the 8th grade year. Two things we used that I'd do again. First, he read Strunk and White, followed by Zinnzer's On Writing Well. We discussed them, though I wish that I'd had some writing samples that we could have worked through to put the principles into practice.

 

Second, he took a Bravewriter Short Story class with Julie's dh. It was a great intro into literature analysis. Though there was no real writing component, we certainly could have added it at home. So an on-line Bravewriter class may just fill a gap for you this year.

 

Research papers....I'm "iffy" as to value of these, to be honest. I produced so many research papers as a student, most of which were the usual regurgitation and not particularly useful in the grand scheme of things.

Well. . . can I explore this with you a bit? The process of researching itself is a huge skill. But I come from a journalism/legal background so research was the backbone of much of my work. And today's research is of course nearly all computer research -- none of the old periodical searches I used to do! But the skills of finding databases, using search terms and symbols, and digging out the primary information are all skills that a student should explore in high school.

 

I only recently assigned my oldest 2 dc a research paper -- and really only because I needed to for their AP government class. But, I found several students in my class were completely unfamiliar with MLA style. Learning MLA alone was worth the assignment. Additionally, we discussed different ways to organize the research and I required an outline. Also, a true research paper should go beyond regurgitation to analysis. It's a good exercise in choosing a topic, how to narrow or broaden the topic, organizing a long paper, going beyond facts to analyze or interpret the data. It's more than the report of elementary school days and worthwhile IMHO.

 

I own The Lively Art of Writing, but don't know if/how to use it. Jan read the first bit and frankly, I don't think he's old enough yet to have it make an impression. I also don't see how to put into practice in a meaningful way.

 

My ds used it in 9th grade. While I liked the writing instruction well enough, I found the writing assignments vacuum dust dry. If I use it again (not in my plans at the moment), I'll definitely come up with my own assignments.

 

My oldest 3 dc used Sentence Composing last semester. It's a keeper. It's well-designed with excellent writing models and I'll definitely use it with my other dc as they mature in their writing.

 

Finally, what about something other than the typical essay/report styles? What about assigning some creative writing or journalism or even magazine style articles on current events? That might be fun if it's just the thought of more essay writing that's bogging you all down.

 

HTH,

Lisa

[Ellie]

"Language arts" is way to nebulous a term.

 

Writing and literature are usually included every year in a traditional English course in school from 8th grade on.

 

Looks to me as if you need something more methodical for both.

 

It isn't too late to start Writing Strands; doing one a year would get him through the whole series (Level 4 and up), covering all aspects of writing. Then you can either have him read a variety of genres each year from a list of your choice, or you could go with something like Smarr beginning in 9th grade.

[Guest IsaiahM]

For those who have already a decent grasp of Grammar/English but need something more for their communication skills, I'd suggest a classical rhetorical approach. This teaches figures of speech, how to come up with your material, what persuasion means. Even better, if you can follow it up with speech and debate he will improve greatly.

 

http://www.oakhillcs.com/upcoming-online-courses/

[Peela]

My dd14 has just completed two Home2teach.com writing classes- 6 weeks each. She can also write a basic 5 para essay and is a competent writer, however all students (I think ) have to start with Paragraph Writing, and I can say this really stretched her and refined her writing to a much more "professional" level. The feedback was absolutely excellent and I basically was asked NOT to help. I really feel i got my money's worth.

The courses are inexpensive, I think, and 6 weeks was just long enough. I will do more when they again coincide with our school terms, later in the year.

BTW, the Paragraph classes include grammar, vocabulary etc and can be considered complete LA for the duration of the class.

[FloridaLisa]

Peela,

 

Thanks for the review of Home2Teach. It's always nice to have feedback about how these courses actually turn out.

 

Lisa

[Ria]

I've mentioned before that I'm a friend and fan of Julie Bogart, of Bravewriter. I've not yet used any of her online courses but will likely have Jan take one this next semester. I also plan to buy her book Help for High School, which promises to be useful.

 

Beyond this, I don't know...I can't decide if what I'm doing is sufficient or not.

 

 

I agree with the other poster who asked what your goals are for your son, and what your son's aspirations are. Does he hope to attend college? Is this the goal? If so, you'll want a different path than if he's just looking to have a high school dipoloma.

 

A student aspiring to attend college could look at the College Board website and look at the essays the kids need to write for their SATs. At a minimum, a student looking at college would want to be able to respond and write to an SAT essay question (in 25 minutes!). No matter what the major, kids in college are expected to write, and write a lot for certain classes. Total familiarity with MLA format is a must in high school - in college students are expected to understand and adhere to it.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Ria

[Colleen]

I wanted to post an update of sorts should my thought-process be of use to anyone else.:) After giving this more thought, reading your replies, and discussing this with a couple of close friends who are themselves writers and writing instructors, I've realized I'm fairly content with where I'm at. That is to say, while my own approach to writing is quite different from many on this board, I'm okay with that.

 

Several of you asked what my goals are for my son, whether he hopes to go to college. That actually doesn't play a factor in how I approach this subject. I want my children to be capable writers regardless of whether they're machinists or molecular biologists. To that end, mastering the art of the essay is of prime importance. The copywork and dictation and various other "language arts" elements of my boys' days are steps in that direction. Learning the art of argument, the structure of sentences and paragraphs and essays all follow and shouldn't/doesn't require great pains.

 

As for research papers, aside from learning the MLA format (again, not great shakes there), I don't believe producing research reports is a skill in and of itself. They aren't a means to an end. If one can produce an essay, one can produce a research report.

 

As I said before, I know my thoughts on this differ from many of you. It's not my intent to be contrary; rather, to share my thoughts should be they of use or encouragement to others. Thank you for you input and for listening to mine.:)

[Carol in Cal.]

I wanted to post an update of sorts should my thought-process be of use to anyone else.:) After giving this more thought, reading your replies, and discussing this with a couple of close friends who are themselves writers and writing instructors, I've realized I'm fairly content with where I'm at. That is to say, while my own approach to writing is quite different from many on this board, I'm okay with that.

 

Several of you asked what my goals are for my son, whether he hopes to go to college. That actually doesn't play a factor in how I approach this subject. I want my children to be capable writers regardless of whether they're machinists or molecular biologists. To that end, mastering the art of the essay is of prime importance. The copywork and dictation and various other "language arts" elements of my boys' days are steps in that direction. Learning the art of argument, the structure of sentences and paragraphs and essays all follow and shouldn't/doesn't require great pains.

 

As for research papers, aside from learning the MLA format (again, not great shakes there), I don't believe producing research reports is a skill in and of itself. They aren't a means to an end. If one can produce an essay, one can produce a research report.

 

As I said before, I know my thoughts on this differ from many of you. It's not my intent to be contrary; rather, to share my thoughts should be they of use or encouragement to others. Thank you for you input and for listening to mine.:)

 

I have followed this thread with interest, as my DD is a year younger than your oldest, and as I, too, am a fan of Bravewriter but do not use it exclusively.

 

One thing you might want to consider regarding the essay skills vs. the research report skills--kids who just sit down and write most of their writing assignments without needing to do a lot of planning, and then polish them a bit, sometimes have more trouble writing lengthy pieces than other kids who struggle more with getting their thoughts down on paper in the first place. This seems to be because they are not used to organizing their writing in advance on paper, because they sort of organize it in their heads and then write it down in logical order in their first drafts. This works pretty well for short pieces, but not so well for longer ones. I think that WJ addresses this well with the narrowing and expanding phase as well as the editing phases, but for kids who are easy writers to start with, there is a qualitative difference between a short (1 1/2 page) essay and a 4-10 page research paper that takes some practice to overcome.