Teaching the classics course (IEW)

[My4arrows]

Has anyone taken this course?  I’m curious if it’s worth taking to have a better understanding in teaching literature.  I’m also wondering if the videos were updated with the latest release in 2017 as I saw the videos had poor quality. 

[4atHome]

Following.  I've been looking into this as well since @Slache mentioned it in one of my threads.

[cintinative]

Well, first I will correct you and tell you that this is not made by IEW but by Center for Lit. https://www.centerforlit.com/teaching-the-classics

I'm not sure what you mean by poor video quality.  The 2017 is the latest edition. I guess I didn't see it as having poor video quality.

I have owned both editions of this and found it very helpful for me to understand how to lead a Socratic discussion of literature. It's basically a teacher training course and includes examples which he works through like a practicum.  

Although my kids are now outsourcing lit, we still used the TTC method to discuss read alouds. 

[Lori D.]

No personal experience, but more than once I have seen people on these boards do TtC with their 8th/9th grade and up students, so it teaches students simultaneously while teaching parents. 😉 

Edited February 14, 2021 by Lori D.

[My4arrows]

1 hour ago, cintinative said:

Well, first I will correct you and tell you that this is not made by IEW but by Center for Lit. https://www.centerforlit.com/teaching-the-classics

I'm not sure what you mean by poor video quality.  The 2017 is the latest edition. I guess I didn't see it as having poor video quality.

I have owned both editions of this and found it very helpful for me to understand how to lead a Socratic discussion of literature. It's basically a teacher training course and includes examples which he works through like a practicum.  

Although my kids are now outsourcing lit, we still used the TTC method to discuss read alouds. 

Yes I know it’s from Center for lit but I was looking at it through IEW and that stuck in my head 🤦🏼‍♀️
 

I read some reviews saying that the video was hard to hear, especially the first lesson and that the camera work wasn’t always the best. That would distract me unfortunately so I’m wondering if the video was redone for 2017. These were comments from the previous version. 

[My4arrows]

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

No personal experience, but more than once I have seen people on these boards do TtC with their 8th/9th grade and up students, so it teaches students simultaneously while teaching parents. 😉 

I like that idea!  

[Lori D.]

It looks like IEW also sells the program, but it originated with Center for Lit.

It looks like there is a 3-minute sample on the Center for Lit. website, and a 9-minute sample on Youtube -- perhaps check that out for video/sound quality??

[cintinative]

7 minutes ago, My4arrows said:

I read some reviews saying that the video was hard to hear, especially the first lesson and that the camera work wasn’t always the best. That would distract me unfortunately so I’m wondering if the video was redone for 2017. These were comments from the previous version. 

Oh, I see what you mean. I thought you meant the new one was poor video quality and I didn't understand that.  The old one was shot in a classroom and I can see how there would be comments on the camera work and sound. 

[caffeineandbooks]

Yes, the 2017 edition was completely re-shot.  Better sound, no shaky cameras, a couple of extra lectures included.  I have loved it for my own understanding and been able to implement the discussion method with my kids even though, as @Lori D. said, they won't watch it themselves until late middle school.  The seminar participant's book has their list of socratic questions in it, which guide you through discussing any book with your kids.

If you want to check it out a bit more before dropping the dough, check out their podcasts at https://www.centerforlit.com/centerforlit-podcast-network.  That will give you a feel for what they're about and whether you like their method.  

One thing I have appreciated about CFL is that Adam and Missy Andrews are a (former - all kids now graduated) homeschooling couple who developed this method to help their friends be able to discuss books with their own kids.  Unlike many providers out there who seem to be angling for the classical schools market and just scooping up homeschoolers as a bonus, CFL have a heart for homeschoolers and this program, though it works for schools too, is squarely aimed at us.

[Slache]

I thought IEW made it until I owned it. I regret not buying a package with Reading Roadmaps and age appropriate lit from the website. I'm tired. Buy the thing. Socratic good.

[8filltheheart]

Based on your other post asking about a literature study, I would recommend using a program geared toward younger kids like Further Up and Further In as a way to have fun with exploring literature in-depth and introducing yourself lit concepts gently in combo with your children.   Two other programs that I would suggest looking into for slightly older children are Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings and Windows to the World  (Windows to the World explores short stories in order to teach essay writing.).

[My4arrows]

3 hours ago, 8filltheheart said:

Based on your other post asking about a literature study, I would recommend using a program geared toward younger kids like Further Up and Further In as a way to have fun with exploring literature in-depth and introducing yourself lit concepts gently in combo with your children.   Two other programs that I would suggest looking into for slightly older children are Literary Lessons from Lord of the Rings and Windows to the World  (Windows to the World explores short stories in order to teach essay writing.).

Thanks!  I already have the further up on hold at the library to see if it would be a good fit for us. I know they’d enjoy the LOR study too since it’s another favorite. They are well read just not much in study so these may be good steps. I did wonder if the course would help me learn better so I could apply it myself to all the ages. I have toddler up to 13 so a wide range Id like to focus on (starting my youngest off better)

[Lori D.]

22 hours ago, My4arrows said:

Thanks!  I already have the further up on hold at the library to see if it would be a good fit for us. I know they’d enjoy the LOR study too since it’s another favorite. They are well read just not much in study so these may be good steps. I did wonder if the course would help me learn better so I could apply it myself to all the ages. I have toddler up to 13 so a wide range Id like to focus on (starting my youngest off better)

Just throwing in my opinion: informal discussion of books *as it naturally comes up*, and fun extension studies (like, exploring geography or hand craft or music or food or customs etc.) that show up in a book, or a unit study revolving around the book, is really the way to go with elementary ages. Save the formal literary analysis and literature studies for when the student has developed the analytical thinking skills for digging deeper into literature -- like, between 6th-8th grade (varies by student, of course).

Further Up Further In that @8filltheheart mentioned is a great example of the extension type of study, or a unit study, and the "sweet spot" for that study is probably grades 4-6. Of course, you can bring along "youngers," and adapt for "olders". 😉 

Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings is a great, gentle intro into beginning literary analysis/formal literature studies, and its "sweet spot" is about grades 7-9. I have seen people on these boards with advanced 6th graders do it, or have 6th graders, and the occasional 5th grader "tag along" -- listening in, but not doing the formal "work". The study is really at a beginning level, so I'd only do it after 9th grade with a student who hasn't had any formal literature studies before.

All that to say -- starting formal literary analysis younger than 6th/7th grade can backfire. [I don't mean the extension type of lit. study, or unity study, but more like pushing literary devices and abstract analysis.]  Kids can be so very black and white in their thinking that they can end up stopping at finding the setting, naming the protagonist and antagonist, and listing an example of imagery, and think "check, check, check! My work here is done. Nothing more to see here..." Rather than slowly and naturally working into deeper and deeper thinking and conversation about literature over the middle school / high school years, and discovering the joy of entering into the Great Conversation that is Literature. 😄 

Also... you don't want to kill a love of reading and literature by over-analyzing, esp. at young ages. 😉 

JMO. 😉

Edited February 16, 2021 by Lori D.

[My4arrows]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Just throwing in my opinion: informal discussion of books *as it naturally comes up*, and fun extension studies (like, exploring geography or hand craft or music or food or customs etc.) that show up in a book is really the way to go with elementary ages. Save the formal literary analysis and literature studies for when the student has developed the analytical thinking skills for digging deeper into literature -- like, between 6th-8th grade (varies by student, of course).

Further Up Further In is a great example of the extension type of study, and the "sweet spot" for that study is probably grades 4-6. Of course, you can bring along "youngers," and adapt for "olders". 😉 

Literary Lessons from the Lord of the Rings is a great, gentle intro into beginning literary analysis/formal literature studies, and its "sweet spot" is about grades 7-9. I have seen people on these boards with advanced 6th graders do it, or have 6th graders, and the occasional 5th grader "tag along" -- listening in, but not doing the formal "work". The study is really at a beginning level, so I'd only do it after 9th grade with a student who hasn't had any formal literature studies before.

All that to say -- starting formal literary analysis younger than 6th/7th grade can backfire. [I don't mean the extension type of lit. study, but more like pushing literary devices and abstract analysis.]  Kids can be so very black and white in their thinking that they can end up stopping at finding the setting, naming the protagonist and antagonist, and listing an example of imagery, and think "check, check, check! My work here is done. Nothing more to see here..." Rather than slowly and naturally working into deeper and deeper thinking and conversation about literature over the middle school / high school years, and discovering the joy of entering into the Great Conversation that is Literature. 😄 

JMO. 😉

Thank you for your advice!  Much needed and a great reminder.  I'm currently feeling like a homeschool mom failure as I'm noticing gaps and things lacking after some other things taking my attention away .  Now maybe I'm overcompensating to try to do it all where I may not need to.  

[8filltheheart]

To expand on Lori's wonderful post, that is the type of approach I take with my kids all the way through high school graduation.  We read books, follow allusions, read parallel story lines that influenced the authors, etc.  I am not a classical educator, but we read multiple classics as they tie in to what we are studying.

My 9th grader and I are finishing up LLfLOTR.  We have read Beowulf, the Iliad, Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, MacBeth,  Lancelot and Elaine, Lady of the Lake, etc along with our study.  

I have done a study where we ready Lewis's Space Trilogy and then read Genesis and Paradise Lost and compared the Green Lady and Eves, etc.

One fun study we did was designed around the movie Inception and we read Greek mythology (Ariadne and the Minotaur), Plato's Allegory of the Cave, Through the Looking Glass, Flatland, Labyrinth of Reason, etc.  

Anyway, that is a long way of saying that lit studies don't have to be dry lit analysis.  You can expose them to analytical skills through interesting journeys that bring depth and enjoyment by expanding their understanding and have great conversations along the way.  (FWIW, I have had a dd ASK me if she could do a sr capstone thesis on Shakespeare.  She spent her entire sr yr reading plays, compiling research, etc.  She loved every minute of it. 🙂 )

[MomN]

2 hours ago, My4arrows said:

Much needed and a great reminder.  I'm currently feeling like a homeschool mom failure as I'm noticing gaps and things lacking after some other things taking my attention away .  Now maybe I'm overcompensating to try to do it all where I may not need to.  

I do this all the time!  Good reminder for me too!

[MomN]

On 2/14/2021 at 12:16 PM, cintinative said:

I have owned both editions

Would you say the editions are very similar?

[8filltheheart]

4 hours ago, My4arrows said:

Thanks!  I already have the further up on hold at the library to see if it would be a good fit for us. I know they’d enjoy the LOR study too since it’s another favorite. They are well read just not much in study so these may be good steps. I did wonder if the course would help me learn better so I could apply it myself to all the ages. I have toddler up to 13 so a wide range Id like to focus on (starting my youngest off better)

There is another book by the same name, so make sure you are looking at this one: https://cadroncreek.com/shop/further-up-and-further-in/

[4atHome]

5 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Further Up Further In is a great example of the extension type of study, or a unit study, and the "sweet spot" for that study is probably grades 4-6. Of course, you can bring along "youngers," and adapt for "olders". 😉 

Was trying to recall the name of this.  Had read about it a couple years ago.  Will revisit.

 

5 hours ago, Lori D. said:

All that to say -- starting formal literary analysis younger than 6th/7th grade can backfire

Oh, thanks for saying that!  I'm not going to worry to much about this for now.  My oldest, d11 loves to read and may be ready for this, but don't want to burden my resistant ds9 and eager ds6.

Edited February 16, 2021 by 4atHome

[4atHome]

 

5 hours ago, My4arrows said:

Thank you for your advice!  Much needed and a great reminder.  I'm currently feeling like a homeschool mom failure as I'm noticing gaps and things lacking after some other things taking my attention away .  Now maybe I'm overcompensating to try to do it all where I may not need to.  

Same feelings here.

[cintinative]

11 hours ago, MomN said:

Would you say the editions are very similar?

Other than the newer video, which has more content and is much more professionally done, there is actually a "little" more content in what they call the syllabus/guide.  It's not a lot though.  

If you have a very tight budget and the old video won't bother you, I think you will do fine with the old version. If you can swing it, buy the new.

[ScoutTN]

I like TtC, but like Lori, 8, and many others, I didn’t introduce any formal study of literature until about 7th. We just read and made connections.

I do think some of the questions can be useful with youngers, as long as they flow naturally in your discussion. Read Aloud Revival has good ones too.

[cintinative]

when my kids were younger, we focused on the very basic questions from the socratic list. Who are the characters? What are they like?  What is the setting? Is there a problem (conflict) in the story? What is it?  etc.  

The way the TTC list is set up is that the first questions under each list (e.g. setting) are the most basic, and as you go down the list they get more mature and in depth. 

For example, where does the story take place?  (easy)  versus, Does the setting of the story attract or repel you? (more thoughtful)

Edited February 17, 2021 by cintinative

[My4arrows]

So thankful for all the responses.  The more I think about it, the more I realize I am doing so much of this already, I just wasn't confident I was doing enough.