Grammar struggles: making my own?

[LauraClark]

My current homeschool struggle: grammar (seems like one subject will go well, and then there is a new subject that pops up needing work...I'm beginning to think this will be the case in our whole homeschool journey ;) )  I thought FLL would be our go-to, and it has been good for levels 1 and 2, but I've given level 3 two separate tries (after taking a break with another free curriculum for a bit) and it's just not working for DS9 (who I was really planning on being in level 4 at this point).  Here are some things about my struggle:

-Our budget is very limited.  I'm sure many of you are in the same boat.  I'd rather not spend much at all.  We use Dictation Day by Day - is there a grammar curriculum from the early 1900's that would be free?  I couldn't find anything.

-I'm totally content to make up my own stuff (I do that with a few other things), but grammar is my personal weak point.  Maybe I need some kind of guide?

-FLL 3 is written at a very high level for my elementary kids to comprehend.  "A noun or pronoun in the complete predicate that renames the subject is called a predicate nominative".  Even I have to reread that sentence like 3 times to comprehend it.  I need an easier approach.

-I need our grammar time to also include things like fixing sentences.  Adding punctuation, capitalization, etc - those are weak points for DS9 that aren't coming through our writing curriculum (Writing Strands, which I love).  I've looked at Fix-It Grammar, but it doesn't have any diagramming which I would also like to include.

-We are doing Latin and Greek (Latin's Not so Tough and Hey Andrew! Teach Me Some Greek).

Do you have any curriculum suggestions?  Growing with Grammar looks intriguing, but expensive.  Anyone create their own grammar curriculum?  I would love any tips.

[hs03842]

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Edited December 10, 2020 by JoyKM

[Lori D.]

If you can at all afford it:

6 Weeks to Understanding Grammar (Joyce Herzog)
$8 pdf download; invaluable for understanding Grammar and making it simple and clear -- esp. useful if you want to try for DIY Grammar. At Amazon: FREE if you have Kindle Unlimited; $12+shipping if you want a printed version.

Spectrum Language Arts
Workbook -- $6 + shipping. Often, a simple workbook is the easiest solution; and this has a section on punctuation and capitalization.

Complete Book of Grammar and Punctuation
Workbook -- only available used, so there is a slim chance that even if they say "clean", that some of the pages may have writing on them, BUT... used prices (book & shipping) range from $10.50-$15 -- but it is thick at 350 pages. Includes: The focus in this book is on: parts of speech and sections on each part of speech; sentences; capitalization; punctuation plus sections on using the individual punctuation marks; proofreading; paragraphs; editing checklist.

Grammar Worksheet Resources - free
KISS Grammar
FREE. You can download/print work pages, or just have the child look at the work page on the computer screen and write answers on paper. It is not the easiest website to negotiate, however.

K5 Learning
FREE workworksheets on various grammar topics, by grade level. Again, you could download/print or just have the worksheet on the computer screen and child writes answers on paper. This website has worksheets specifically on punctuation, capitalization, complete sentences vs. fragments, and the various parts of speech.

Plain and Not so Plain
FREE pdf of English worksheets: here is grade 4.


FREE Public Domain vintage Grammar books, read online
Note that because these all are so much older, you may run into the same problems of the old-fashioned, complex definitions of parts of speech. I believe FLL was based off of some of these older grammar programs. 😉 

Grammarland (E. Nesbit) -- FREE public domain grammar book
Grammarland audiobook -- FREE from LibriVox
Grammarland worksheets -- FREE download/print worksheets -- click on the link in this blog

Grammar Made Easy, for Beginners (Sarah Guernsey)
The Child's Own English Book (Alice Ball)
Primary English (John Hart) 
Elementary Grammar (William Maxwell) -- includes exercises
An Elementary Grammar of the English Language (Thomas Harvey) -- includes teacher activities and oral exercises


For remembering to use punctuation and capitalization
Well, age 9 is pretty young for many students to remember to do this automatically in their own writing -- I have a lot of HIGH SCHOOL students in my co-op classes who forget to do this, AND they forget to do a proof-editing pass before turning in their papers to me.  😵

For my own DSs, I just had to work with them all through the late elementary/middle school years to make going back over the writing to check for punctuation and capitalization and other proof-editing into a habitual part of their writing process. I did find that proof-editing workbooks were helpful as a daily practice to help DSs remember what they were looking for.

Take 5 Minutes: A History Fact a Day for Editing -- we liked this one a lot, and it looks like you can see/print much of it from online.


Hope something there is of help! BEST of luck in your Grammar adventures! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[EKS]

I recommend Michael Clay Thompson.  It's expensive, but perhaps you can find it used.  It gives an excellent big picture view of grammar.  I'd start with Grammar/Sentence/Practice Island and move forward.  

You could then follow this up with Hake (Saxon) Grammar for the details.

If grammar is a weak point for you, I recommend working through the text(s) yourself before teaching your child.  

I would not make up a grammar curriculum yourself if it is a weak point.  

 

[LauraClark]

4 hours ago, JoyKM said:

This is going based on what I have heard about grammar:  It's okay to wait for the higher level grammar instruction until your child is in 5th grade (diagramming, some of those bigger words, etc,).

With that in mind, if I was in your shoes I'd focus 100% on basic editing.  When I was in 4th grade my teacher would write an incorrectly capitalized and punctuated sentence on the board, then we were supposed to copy the sentence while fixing the errors.  She would go over it with us after we were all done.  To adapt that to homeschool, divide a page in a spiral (front and back) into however many days you do per week, then write an incorrect sentence in each section.  As a warm up each day your child could correct the sentence.  Then you could talk about it and list or color code the parts of speech.  

I might actually do this myself!  😂  Diagramming sentences was a valuable experience for me as a kid in understanding grammar, and I think we worked on diagrams from 4-8th grades.  Maybe after the editing sentence you do a diagram at an appropriate level.  Does FLL have information on diagramming?  If you have something to work off of already in terms of knowing what to do I don't see why you can't apply that to other sentences, especially if you make them up so you know what each thing is supposed to be.  

Thank you-that is so encouraging to hear.  DS9 is getting ready to transition to the next stage of classical learning next year and sometimes I get really nervous that I haven't quite got him where he should be.  It's good to hear I can wait for the higher concept stuff until next year.  FLL does do diagramming, so maybe I will just glean all that I can and pass on some of it-I like your suggestions!

@Lori D. : Thank you!  I so appreciate all the time you take when you comment on posts.  I'll be looking through those links.  We had used grammar land (more as a read aloud) and the kids liked that.

@EKS : thank you!  I looked at MCT, but I'm confused.  Does it just teach parts of speech?  That seems to be the majority of the content based on samples, but so many people rave about it.  What am I missing?  I do like that it's story based.

[Lori D.]

20 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

...  I looked at MCT, but I'm confused.  Does it just teach parts of speech?  That seems to be the majority of the content based on samples, but so many people rave about it.  What am I missing?  I do like that it's story based.

From the website and samples:

all 3 levels: Island, Town, Voyage cover:
parts of speech = noun, pronoun, adjective, verb, adverb, preposition, conjunction, interjection
parts of a sentence = subject, predicate, direct object, indirect object, subject compliment [predicate nominative]
phrases = prepositional, appositive, verbal 
clauses = independent, dependent

The Grammar of Literature = goes into diagramming
The Magic Lens series = practices sentence analysis

No personal experience, but from spending a lot of time looking over the materials to see if they would be a fit for our family, I found that MCT's materials come at Language Arts topics from a very different perspective. They are a fit for some people, but absolutely not a fit for many others (we fell into that second camp).

If you are not working under a tight budget, OR if someone can loan you the materials for free use by your family--then sure, experiment with MCT! Otherwise, JMO, but it is an expensive risk to use something that is from a very unusual perspective unless you absolutely *know* it is what will fit for your particular student.

BEST of luck in finding what fits your student's learning style, your teaching style, AND your family budget! Warmly, Lori D.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[Momto6inIN]

We tried FLL and it was just too dry for us. We do Easy Grammar in 3rd (gentle intro), Fix It in 4th/5th (still pretty gentle but a step up from Easy Grammar), and then Analytical Grammar in 6th - 8th (includes diagramming, complete, thorough, easy to implement). It's been a great sequence for our kids. Retention is great with Analytical Grammar and in high school they only need a review exercise every couple weeks to keep skills sharp.

Eta: Sorry, I posted before I was ready 🙂 There's really no need for a 9 year old to know what a predicate nominative is that I can see. At that age, basic punctuation rules and identifying parts of speech are plenty. Lots of time for sentence analysis and complicated diagrams later in the logic stage!

Edited November 1, 2020 by Momto6inIN

[Lori D.]

Here's a link to a drop-box with all 6 elementary grades of Scot Foresman Writing & Grammar textbooks (now out of print), available for free download. It is a much more recent text, so the language and examples are likely to be more contemporary. 😉 This is for both Writing and Grammar, but you could just use one or the other, as desired, as they are not integrated.

Here is the grade 4 link, if interested.

Edited November 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[EKS]

37 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

I looked at MCT, but I'm confused.  Does it just teach parts of speech?

No--way more than parts of speech.  It teaches students to think about four aspects of sentences:

• Parts of speech
• Parts of a sentence (subject, predicate, direct/indirect object, subject complement)
• Phrases (prepositional, appositive, verbal)
• Clauses (independent, dependent) 

It sounds weirder (and more difficult) than it actually is.  If you start with Island, it will make sense.  I recommend doing it as a read aloud on the couch (including the practice book--just keep a pencil handy).

[LauraClark]

14 minutes ago, Momto6inIN said:

We tried FLL and it was just too dry for us. We do Easy Grammar in 3rd (gentle intro), Fix It in 4th/5th (still pretty gentle but a step up from Easy Grammar), and then Analytical Grammar in 6th - 8th (includes diagramming, complete, thorough, easy to implement). It's been a great sequence for our kids. Retention is great with Analytical Grammar and in high school they only need a review exercise every couple weeks to keep skills sharp.

Eta: Sorry, I posted before I was ready 🙂 There's really no need for a 9 year old to know what a predicate nominative is that I can see. At that age, basic punctuation rules and identifying parts of speech are plenty. Lots of time for sentence analysis and complicated diagrams later in the logic stage!

That is so good to hear - thank you!!  I'll look into Easy Grammar.  Did you start in book 3 for 3rd grade? 

[Lori D.]

Gosh, I know I sound like I'm raining on everybody else's grammar parade 😂 -- BUT...

We had real problems with Easy Grammar. Each day is very similar to the day before, so both DSs, even in elementary grades, very quickly picked up the "pattern" of what was expected for the written answer, zippily filled it in, and failed to actually absorb the actual *concept*. I have heard others on these boards express the same trouble with Easy Grammar of memorizing worksheet pattern, rather than actual concepts. 😉 

Another YMMV... 😉 

Bowing out now, so I stop monopolizing this thread... 😄 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Lori D.

[Matryoshka]

2 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Gosh, I know I sound like I'm raining on everybody else's grammar parade 😂 -- BUT...

We had real problems with Easy Grammar. Each day is very similar to the day before, so both DSs, even in elementary grades, very quickly picked up the "pattern" of what was expected for the written answer, zippily filled it in, and failed to actually absorb the actual *concept*. I have heard others on these boards express the same trouble with Easy Grammar of memorizing worksheet pattern, rather than actual concepts. 😉 
 

I think you're actually talking about Daily Grams by Easy Grammar, not Easy Grammar itself.

I really like Easy Grammar for an introduction, but IMHO it has to be taught, not handed to the kid to fill out.  The teacher's guide has very good instructions for teaching.  Each worksheet is different (not the same like Daily Grams), and I would go over every.single sentence they made mistakes on before we moved on (which was much less time consuming than it sounds, lol).  I really like the 'eliminating' prepositional phrases approach to simplify analysis (though I never had them cross them out, only put parentheses around them).  I kept them doing that after we moved on to MCT.  We only did EG once through in 5th grade, then moved on to MCT.

[Momto6inIN]

25 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

That is so good to hear - thank you!!  I'll look into Easy Grammar.  Did you start in book 3 for 3rd grade? 

 

15 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Gosh, I know I sound like I'm raining on everybody else's grammar parade 😂 -- BUT...

We had real problems with Easy Grammar. Each day is very similar to the day before, so both DSs, even in elementary grades, very quickly picked up the "pattern" of what was expected for the written answer, zippily filled it in, and failed to actually absorb the actual *concept*. I have heard others on these boards express the same trouble with Easy Grammar of memorizing worksheet pattern, rather than actual concepts. 😉 

Another YMMV... 😉 

Bowing out now, so I stop monopolizing this thread... 😄 

 

8 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I think you're actually talking about Daily Grams by Easy Grammar, not Easy Grammar itself.

I really like Easy Grammar for an introduction, but IMHO it has to be taught, not handed to the kid to fill out.  The teacher's guide has very good instructions for teaching.  Each worksheet is different (not the same like Daily Grams), and I would go over every.single sentence they made mistakes on before we moved on (which was much less time consuming than it sounds, lol).  I really like the 'eliminating' prepositional phrases approach to simplify analysis (though I never had them cross them out, only put parentheses around them).  I kept them doing that after we moved on to MCT.  We only did EG once through in 5th grade, then moved on to MCT.

We actually use the 2nd grade Easy Grammar book in 3rd grade and it does need to be taught, not just filled out by the student. It only takes us 5 minutes a day (maybe even less) but the concepts build on each other and my DD's have definitely learned things with it.

[Lori D.]

54 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

I think you're actually talking about Daily Grams by Easy Grammar, not Easy Grammar itself.

I've used both Easy Grammar and Daily Grams -- had the same trouble with both. 😞

[Matryoshka]

32 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

I've used both Easy Grammar and Daily Grams -- had the same trouble with both. 😞

Well, Daily Grams I've never used - it definitely looked too much like you could get away with figuring out the pattern and not really understand what you were doing.

Easy Grammar I think is good if it is taught, and then also gone over in detail, only a few pages a week.  If you hand the kid the book to teach to themselves, it will not work - for one thing, there is no teaching in the student book, all the teaching is in the teacher manual.  And then I think it has to be not just corrected but gone over to make sure the deeper understanding is there.  I have, of course, no idea how you used it, but I've seen a lot of people here seem to hand the student book to the kid to fill out, and it's not ever going to stick that way.  

I used Easy Grammar 6 with my twins in 5th, and their younger sister (2nd/3rd grade at the time) actually absorbed much of it by listening in  - I did lessons on a white board.  I saw no benefit from using more than one level, though - it's extremely repetitive year over year, and doesn't ever really go beyond parts of speech and some parts of sentences.  MCT was great to go deeper (phrases other than prepositional, clauses, verbals) and then for comprehensive review with the Practice books to keep it all from being forgotten (but still only taking about 10 min 1-2x a week).

I'm actually using Easy Grammar right now to tutor some 5th/6th grade siblings.  We meet twice a week for an hour, and all that time is spent with me either teaching or going over their homework on a white board.  I am skipping around in the book a bit, as I'm using it kind of surgically to introduce things and get basic concepts down, then I want to  move on to Killgallon and MCT to get into more advanced stuff and cement things.

[Lori D.]

25 minutes ago, Matryoshka said:

...Easy Grammar I think is good if it is taught, and then also gone over in detail, only a few pages a week.  If you hand the kid the book to teach to themselves, it will not work...

Totally agree -- Easy Grammar definitely needed to be taught! I could never hand off any work for any subject without prior teaching, to either DS, all through grades 1-8 -- and for one, most of the way through high school, too. Just didn't work with our particular students.

Glad you're having good success with Easy Grammar -- twice now! 😄 

[Matryoshka]

1 minute ago, Lori D. said:

Totally agree -- Easy Grammar definitely needed to be taught! I could never hand off any work for any subject without prior teaching, to either DS, all through grades 1-8 -- and for one, most of the way through high school, too. Just didn't work with our particular students.

Glad you're having good success with Easy Grammar -- twice now! 😄 

I think one reason I have success with Easy Grammar is that I know my stuff - I  grammar! - and use the worksheets as a tool to test understanding of the lesson I presented, but I don't expect the worksheets to do any teaching at all. I've actually used EG with lots of kids not my own since that first time through it - I use the TM plus whatever worksheets I pick out to reinforce the lessons I teach. Though I think someone who isn't as comfortable teaching grammar could learn a lot about teaching it if they went through and actually taught the lessons as explained in the teacher's manual (I deviate from their formula where I might do or explain things a bit differently or in a different sequence, but I think the way they present it is good for people who aren't yet as confident in their own teaching).

I just can't imagine using it for more than one year, though.   Each level is pretty much the exact same thing with one or two new topics.  Egads.  That's why I just picked the highest level that had all the most topics, and move on.  (There's a 'higher' level - Plus? - but it's set up differently).

[8filltheheart]

@LauraClark I create my kids' grammar instruction through their copywork.  I found discussing grammar in context of sentences superior to grammar books.  Grammar was a weakness for me as well.  I learned from my oldest ds's grammar book.  BUt, I also recognized that he was learning patterns vs. grammar bc the grammar books' sentences tended to be simple in structure that encouraged recognition via "spotting" the word vs understanding.  I eventually learned that I could read the textbook myself, teach myself the concepts, and then teach my kids directly.  They ended up with far superior understanding that way.

Here is a post I wrote originally when my now college sr was in 2nd grade.  It describes how I teach grammar and writing.  HTH

 

[lulalu]

Rod and Staff sounds like it would fill your needs. 

There is also a book by Rod and Staff that is a grammar reference. You could use that and teach through your dictation. 

Otherwise Primary Language Lessons by Emma Serl is available on google books. I have enjoyed it a lot! 

[LauraClark]

15 minutes ago, lulalu said:

Rod and Staff sounds like it would fill your needs. 

There is also a book by Rod and Staff that is a grammar reference. You could use that and teach through your dictation. 

Otherwise Primary Language Lessons by Emma Serl is available on google books. I have enjoyed it a lot! 

Thank you!  I will look into those.

[PeterPan]

http://www.e4thai.com/e4e/images/pdf2/language_fundamentals/LgFdm3.pdf  Here's a pdf of an older, oop version of the Evan Moor Language Fundamentals grade 3. If you change the numbers, you'll find other grade levels of it too. 

 

[LauraClark]

Thank you-this looks like a fantastic resource!

[PeterPan]

2 minutes ago, LauraClark said:

Thank you-this looks like a fantastic resource!

You're welcome! I use a lot of workbooks with my ds, and Evan Moor stuff is almost a winner with him. I really like their 6 Traits Daily Writing series too. And sometimes you'll find your library system has the workbooks or you'll find an older edition when you google looking for pdfs. 

Definitely don't let your budget hold you back. 

[LauraClark]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

You're welcome! I use a lot of workbooks with my ds, and Evan Moor stuff is almost a winner with him. I really like their 6 Traits Daily Writing series too. And sometimes you'll find your library system has the workbooks or you'll find an older edition when you google looking for pdfs. 

Definitely don't let your budget hold you back. 

Thank you!

[LauraClark]

On 11/1/2020 at 7:39 PM, 8filltheheart said:

@LauraClark I create my kids' grammar instruction through their copywork.  I found discussing grammar in context of sentences superior to grammar books.  Grammar was a weakness for me as well.  I learned from my oldest ds's grammar book.  BUt, I also recognized that he was learning patterns vs. grammar bc the grammar books' sentences tended to be simple in structure that encouraged recognition via "spotting" the word vs understanding.  I eventually learned that I could read the textbook myself, teach myself the concepts, and then teach my kids directly.  They ended up with far superior understanding that way.

Here is a post I wrote originally when my now college sr was in 2nd grade.  It describes how I teach grammar and writing.  HTH

 

Thank you @8filltheheart!  Somehow I missed your comment, but that is so helpful.  I really really enjoy making my own stuff because I can tailor it to what I know will interest them or stick with them (for example I was having my Revolutionary War DS find nouns/verbs in things like "George Washington marched".  I think I'll take what you've given and pair it with some of the guides that have been suggested above (because without a guide I would be pretty lost).