I thought I had Language Arts figured out for 5th grade...but I don't.

[TeachMomTeach]

So- We will be homeschooling.  I HS'ed my oldest for several years, but have not HS DS10 or DS7.  I thought I knew exactly what I wanted, but now?!  DS really really struggles with spelling, though he can read very well, he also struggles deeply with writing; as in, I don't know that he ever really learned how to construct a 5 sentence paragraph.  So-

DS10- needing a phonic approach to spelling, crash course in some writing fundamentals but then a curriculum geared toward strengthening weak writing.  I was really leaning toward Write Shop but so many people said the prep was heavy and it's too "school-ey".   AAS, and LoE maybe?  I loved the idea of MCT but now I'm having second thoughts.  He's fairly solid in grammar and identifying most parts of speech.  WTM grammar crossed my mind, but now I'm just second guessing everything- clearly!

DS7- He has knows his letters and sounds aside from more complicated ones such as "igh" and the like.  He can sound out blends, CVC, CV+silent E, and is familiar with some common sight words but I could say he reads "fluently" by any means.  He has little discipline in sentence mechanics/capital letter, punctuation mark type stuff.  

I also think learning in "units" might be a fit for the older (writing a friendly letter, writing a story/narrative, essay....)?

Help!?   In general we are secular homeschoolers but would be open to hearing about what everyone thinks might be a fit for one or both of my kiddos!

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

Focus on phonics and spelling this semester. Kids can't write well if they are using all their brain power just to spell. Do some copywork, oral narration, etc and lots of read alouds to get good literature in his head. 

Then work on good sentences. Paragraphs are easy if you know how to write a decent sentence. Let him get confident on those. Then teach the paragraph next semester, when he is more confident. 

For DS 7 and phonics I'm a HUGE fan of Abecedarian for remediating reading. He'd probably start with B1, or even the Short version of level A, to get him more fluent before moving on. Build up that confidence. Again, if his brain power is going to figuring out words, he won't be able to spare any for punctuation, etc. Copywork will help with that as well. 

[TeachMomTeach]

10 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Focus on phonics and spelling this semester. Kids can't write well if they are using all their brain power just to spell. Do some copywork, oral narration, etc and lots of read alouds to get good literature in his head. 

Then work on good sentences. Paragraphs are easy if you know how to write a decent sentence. Let him get confident on those. Then teach the paragraph next semester, when he is more confident. 

 

Copywork, narration and read alouds- is there a specific program you thought would be most helpful?

[barnwife]

I have a DSalmost10 who sounds similar to yours. We started using AAS a few months ago, and his spelling has tremendously improved. Now, I don't know that I can give AAS all the credit; he seems to have gone through a "maturity spurt" as well (quotes because I am sure someone would say that's not really a thing). But in the last couple months he's gone from not really even consistently spelling CVC words to being at the tail end of AAS level 1. 

FWIW, he reads very well, but (due to his struggles with spelling), I've never asked him to do much formal writing. We do normally use ELTL, which includes copywork and narration (he's almost at the end of level B). We are temporarily switching to New Language Exercises for Primary Schools (available on google books), due to the impending arrival of kid #5. I started him at the very beginning, and we are doing lots of it orally, so he's moving through it quickly. He likes being able to do some language sitting on the couch. I just pull the book up on the laptop. He uses a clipboard right next to me if he needs to write something. If we finish it, I plan on doing some Writing Strands before returning to ELTL.

I'd focus on having the younger one read to you/phonics and copywork. Once DS7 is more solid on reading, I'd add in spelling. But until then it'd just be reading/phonics, copywork, and maths.

[Syllieann]

The paragraph book series is designed for the situation you describe with the fifth grader.  Many people find success with Apples and Pears for their struggling spellers. Personally, I would hit those really hard and pick grammar back up the next year.

The younger could work through the Dancing Bears books for reading and do WWE/FLL.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Syllieann

[ElizabethB]

I would work them both through my syllables spell success program, it is free and teaches spelling rules while teaching phonics to a 12th grade level.

The nonprofit is Christian and I have some other Phonics and Spelling lessons that use the Bible, but the Syllables program is secular and I have taught it in schools.

http://www.thephonicspage.org/On Reading/syllablesspellsu.html

[ElizabethB]

19 hours ago, Ktgrok said:

Focus on phonics and spelling this semester. Kids can't write well if they are using all their brain power just to spell. Do some copywork, oral narration, etc and lots of read alouds to get good literature in his head. 

Then work on good sentences. Paragraphs are easy if you know how to write a decent sentence. Let him get confident on those. Then teach the paragraph next semester, when he is more confident. 

For DS 7 and phonics I'm a HUGE fan of Abecedarian for remediating reading. He'd probably start with B1, or even the Short version of level A, to get him more fluent before moving on. Build up that confidence. Again, if his brain power is going to figuring out words, he won't be able to spare any for punctuation, etc. Copywork will help with that as well. 

Yes, Abecedarian is a good follow on for an older student that needs more phonics work after my syllables program. I have a list of other programs I like for older students and what you need with an older student here:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/building-good-reading-habits-liz-brown/

With the sight words, you might need to do extra nonsense words for a while to overcome guessing habits and strengthen the phonics habits. If the MWIA score shows a 30% slowdown or more (linked at the end of my syllables page), I would stop all outside reading of sentences and stories for a week and read everything to them. There are extra nonsense words on my syllables page, one group of 25 of them daily is a big help.

For spelling, after, I like Spelling Plus by Susan Anthony, it focuses on the most common 1,000 words arranged by pattern and rule.

http://www.susancanthony.com/bk/sp.html

She has a companion dictation book with dictation sentences using the words, and has some free sentences from literature on her website.

Edited July 26, 2020 by ElizabethB

[HazelAnne]

Maybe Spelling You See for ds10. We switched to this after I noticed my kids could do great on spelling tests, but would misspell words frequently when doing any other writing. This program has helped their spelling improve in general. 

Writing With Ease and First Language Lessons for ds7. We use and really like these.

[barnwife]

3 hours ago, ElizabethB said:

For spelling, after, I like Spelling Plus by Susan Anthony, it focuses on the most common 1,000 words arranged by pattern and rule.

http://www.susancanthony.com/bk/sp.html

She has a companion dictation book with dictation sentences using the words, and has some free sentences from literature on her website.

FWIW, I tried Spelling Plus with my kid who sounds similar...he made no progress with it. He needs to explicitly be taught rules. Now, it's possible he would have done fine with it if I had added spelling tiles (a la AAS), but just the steps in that program were useless for my kiddo. He was absolutely unable to connect air writing with what he needed to put on paper. And if he got stuck, he couldn't use it to help him figure out what he needed to do. 

So, given my experience with what sounds like a similar kid, I'd say try AAS over Spelling Plus. If you try Spelling Plus, perhaps be willing to add in homemade tiles.

And I say that as someone who uses Spelling Plus with a different kid (DD8, a voracious reader and intuitive speller). It's no-nonsense and easy to implement. Plus, no little pieces to use/lose! So I have affection for both programs.

[8filltheheart]

I have 3 children who are horrible spellers.  The program that has helped the most with spelling is Apples and Pears by Sound Foundations.  https://www.soundfoundations.co.uk/en_US/product-category/apples-pears-en_us/ (There a few words with British spellings, but the discrimination exercises combined with the morpheme approach really helps struggling spellers.  AAS, otoh, for our family was a complete waste of $$.)

In terms of writing for your 10 yr old, I have a (2 post) long description of how I have taught my children how to write.  It is a very scaffolded approach and lets kids feel successful with writing vs. stressed. 

 

[CAtoVA]

Not to add another program to your "research," but one of mine is a somewhat weak speller (certainly not a natural speller who readily sees and retains patterns). We used All About Spelling and that was fine, but when she turned 10 I switched to Megawords based on some recommendations here . Two years later her own assessment and mine is that her spelling has improved tremendously. She will be doing Book 4 this year (the number of the books are not grade levels). 

Edited July 29, 2020 by CAtoVA

[CAtoVA]

For strengthening writing at that age (4th-5th) I have successfully used IEW SWI A, IEW SIIC A, and/or theme books. You can buy these used on www.homeschoolclassifieds.com, Ebay, etc. IEW is coming out with newer versions over the next few years called SSS A 1st year, 2nd year, etc. What I like the most about IEW for weaker or inexperienced writers is that the structure part assists them in beginning (helps writer's block and anxiety) and in gaining stamina to write longer pieces. .

[knitgrl]

When dd was maybe 7 or 8, she was a great reader, but poor speller. We used AAS, and her spelling has improved tremendously. She still needs help now and then, but this year we are skipping formal spelling, and just working on the words that give her a hard time.

[SereneHome]

On 7/28/2020 at 2:15 PM, Paradox5 said:

Do not go with SYS. All it is is copying the same passage over and over coloring letter sets. My experience with all 5 (so far) kids is that a spelling program is actually rather useless. It is much better to work on writing then addressing spelling errors in that writing. "Learning" all the rules and random lists is a waste of time and money. People learn to spell the words they use as they write them. My experience is spelling really is a visual skill- "seeing" the words on the dry erase board of your mind. That only comes from writing them in context. Vocabulary programs are even more pointless. Go over the words they see in the books they read. Memorizing roots will mean nothing after a few years because if it isn't used, it isn't retained. Seriously, anyone remember vocabulary from school? I doubt it highly.

Look into Growing with Grammar, Winning with Writing, and Soaring with Spellling & Vocab for the 5th grader. Start a level lower. (Spelling and vocabulary exposure is not a waste. But expecting perfect recall 6 months from now is.)

https://jackrispublishing.com/

I agree with ktgrok- buy Abecedarian using the Short Version A set and moving on from there for the 7 year old. Phonics/Reading takes precedence over any other skill. (And math-- that is the other biggie.)

Yes!!!!!! I've done AAS with all three. My oldest can not spell anything but "cat", DS2 can spell anything and everything. The jury is still out on my youngest.

English is not my native language, I don't know a single spelling rule nor ever did any kind of spelling lessons. I was writing papers in college before spell check was invented and was fine.  So....I don't know....I am beginning to think that you can't "teach" spelling in a lesson format

Vocab - I make them look up words they don't know. Either on-line or in actual dictionary. Sometimes they have to do it on line bc I want them to hear how it sounds, again, bc English is not my native language and my accent is not helping.

I really liked WWE when kids are younger and my oldest is doing IEW right now and loving it.