Teaching an older child who has had minimal schooling?

[mamakelly]

How would you go about teaching an older child (10), to read? There are no learning disabilities, just a lack of teaching on the part of the homeschooling parent. Child has not been exposed to any reading/teaching to read program. What about writing and math? Again, no LD just lack of instruction. I have some ideas, but I'm curious about how others might go about this. I would work with the child 1-2 times per week a few hours at a time. I know it's not ideal, but work with me here lol, what would you do?

Edited February 26, 2020 by mamakelly

[maize]

Reading Reflex was designed for older students, that might be a place to start.

I've heard of starting formal math with Saxon 5/4, which would be grade-by-age appropriate.

[mamakelly]

I do not yet know what the child does know, however her knowledge is very very basic. I was considering Logic of English for reading instruction. 

[beaners]

Whatever program you decide on, I would focus almost entirely on reading in the beginning. If you can read, you can self-teach a lot of math. If you read enough, you will learn the basics of how to write. I would triage under the assumption that your ability to help may be cut off at some point, and you want to be able to make the biggest impact possible. A solid reading foundation is your best bet.

[lewelma]

1 hour ago, beaners said:

 If you can read, you can self-teach a lot of math.

Agreeing with everything you said, but not this. 

[Ellie]

7 hours ago, mamakelly said:

How would you go about teaching an older child (10), to read? There are no learning disabilities, just a lack of teaching on the part of the homeschooling parent. Child has not been exposed to any reading/teaching to read program. What about writing and math? Again, no LD just lack of instruction. I have some ideas, but I'm curious about how others might go about this. I would work with the child 1-2 times per week a few hours at a time. I know it's not ideal, but work with me here lol, what would you do?

Spalding would be my go-to for reading/spelling/penmanship/etc. All that is necessary is the manual, a set of phonogram cards, and a sewn composition book. As long as there are no learning issues, and the child is willing, I would expect to see really excellent results in a few months.

I wouldn't even think about writing per se until the reading is there. Spalding would cover all the mechanics, including very basic writing (it can do more comprehensive writing, grammar, and literature, but I wouldn't plan on that right now).

Here's a very interesting article about an educational experiment (nor formal math until dc were 9yo) that was done with surprising results; and it includes a scope and sequence for teaching arithmetic skills. There might be something here that you can use.

[beaners]

16 minutes ago, lewelma said:

Agreeing with everything you said, but not this. 

I was going from the point of view that you can read about how to do math, but you can't use math to learn how to read. Not that it is ideal or a kid should be expected to do things that way.

[Ellie]

25 minutes ago, square_25 said:

That's a lovely and thought-provoking experiment, but it involved the kids doing lots of hands-on math in the form of games and other activities. It's not clear whether this child had this level of exposure to mathematical ideas or not... that's why I was asking. 

I know that's why you were asking. Did you read the other two parts?

[Zoo Keeper]

Phonics Pathways can be used with most any age. It is one book-- and not too pricey.  And not too demeaning for an older learner. I would do copywork/dictation/spelling from this book as well (there are instructions in the back of the book on how to use it as a spelling program).

Elizabeth B's Phonics lessons might be useful as well.  http://thephonicspage.org/Phonics Lsns/phonicslsnslinks.html

This thread may have some food for thought about teaching math (it applies to an older child, but some of it may help)

 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Zoo Keeper

[Ellie]

2 hours ago, square_25 said:

Other parts of what? Sorry, not sure what you mean.

The article actually has three parts. Part I opens at the link. Parts II and III are at the very bottom. Here's Part II. It gives an actual plan on how to teach arithmetic, which I thought might be helpful with the child you're working with. It doesn't include "games and other activities."

[Ellie]

42 minutes ago, square_25 said:

It doesn’t build on their earlier activities?

No. It assumes you're starting with a 6yo child who knows nothing. I think you could use some of the ideas to figure out what this child knows, and how you might be able to help him catch up/fill in the blanks so he can begin working at age level.

[lewelma]

I did not read until I was 12, but I was in a print based environment for the previous 6 years.  It took me 3 months of solid personal effort many hours a day once I had the basics down. Without any learning disabilities, assume the best but prepare for the worst. 

 

[mamakelly]

This is all really good food for thought. . Hopefully I'll be able to meet with the child in the next few days and try and assess what they do know. I hate to do an actual assessment, but I may see if I can find something to keep track of what needs to be worked on. 

[mamakelly]

3 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Want some "assessment" games?? I do a bunch of those in my homeschool math classes in real life. They are VERY helpful. And the kids like them. 

Yes please!! That's exactly what I was hoping to find. 

 

[Ellie]

4 hours ago, square_25 said:

I looked through the links. It does start with a 6 year old who doesn't know anything, but then it runs them through reasoning practice. He has the kids do lots of numerical work, just no formal arithmetic. I'd be curious how much of this work has been done with this child. Can they tell time? Can they fluently use money? How far can they count? 

For what it's worth, Benezet's report strikes me as completely believable. I've seen the reasoning issues he reports in a vast majority of the college students I've taught. I don't know if I agree that you absolutely have to put off formal arithmetic (I didn't take that tack with my daughter), but I make sure that every symbol we work with stands for something. It's had excellent results so far. 

So I agree with you, really :-). I just wonder how well this is going to apply to this student. 

Part II doesn't talk about a 6yo child. Here's an excerpt:

In the fall of 1933 I felt that I was now ready to make the big plunge. I knew that I could defend my position by evidence that would satisfy any reasonable person. Accordingly, a committee of our principals drew up a new course of study in arithmetic. I would have liked to go the whole route and drop out all the arithmetic until we reached the seventh grade, for we had proved, in the case of four rooms, that this could be done without loss, but the principals were more cautious than I was and I realized, too, that I would now have to deal with the deeply rooted prejudices of the educated portion of our citizens. Therefore, a compromise was reached. Accordingly, on September 1, 1933, we handed out the following course of study in arithmetic:

 

• Grade I - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic. In connection with the use of readers, and as the need for it arises, the children are taught to recognize and read numbers up to 100. This instruction is not concentrated into any particular period or time but comes in incidentally in connection with assignments of the reading lesson or with reference to certain pages of the text.

  Meanwhile, the children are given a basic idea of comparison and estimate thru [sic] the understanding of such contrasting words as: more, less; many. few; higher, lower; taller, shorter; earlier, later; narrower, wider; smaller, larger; etc.

  As soon as it is practicable the children are taught to keep count of the date upon the calendar. Holidays and birthdays, both of members of the class and their friends and relatives, are noted.

   

• Grade II - There is no formal instruction in arithmetic.

  The use of comparatives as taught in the first grade is continued.

  The beginning is made in the telling of time. Children are taught to recognize the hours and half hours.

  The recognition of page numbers is continued. The children are taught to recognize any numbers that they naturally encounter in the books used in the second grade. If any book used in this grade contains an index, the children are taught what it means and how to find the pages referred to. Children will naturally pick up counting in the course of games which they play. They will also easily and without formal instruction learn the meaning of "half," "double," "twice," or "three times." The teacher will not devote any formal instruction to the meaning of these terms if the children do not pick them up naturally and incidentally.

  To the knowledge of the day of the month already acquired is added that of the name of the days of the week and of the months of the year.

  The teacher learns whether the children come in contact with the use of money at all in their life outside the school. If so, the meaning of "penny," "nickel," "dime," and "dollar" is taught. In similar fashion, and just incidentally, the meaning and relation of "pint" and "quart" may be taught.

It continues through grade 8.

[Ellie]

Also, I'm looking for this single 6yo child, and I don't see him.

[Jean in Newcastle]

A lot of kids will learn number recognition and number sense in daily life. Especially if a child gets to watch any kind of educational tv and even more especially if they have an environment that uses numbers. 
 

Same for letter recognition and basic phonics. Explode the Code has some basic placement tests that test for phonemic awareness etc.  

[Ellie]

11 hours ago, square_25 said:

I’m not sure where we’re miscommunicating here. I saw the whole thing. The formal work seemed built on the earlier informal work. Or were you suggesting starting with the informal work with an older child? I may just be misunderstanding.

In Part II, he has a scope and sequence for no formal arithmetic before 9; that's what I copied and pasted (not the whole thing, of course, because that's in the article). I was suggesting that the scope and sequence the school board came up with might give you a guideline on how to figure out what this child knows and doesn't know, and how to build on that knowledge to the point where the child can do formal work.

[goldenecho]

The Addition Facts that Stick/Subtraction Facts That Stick sold here on Well Trained Mind are actually meant to be used to help older students.   It involves short visual lessons followed by a week of printable math games to play that work well for that age.   But  practicing with the games works better if you do it every day.   If the parents are willing to do that with him at home, it would work.   If not, it could work but would just take longer.  I've used these when tutoring but it's harder when you're not there every day.

So, I don't have a suggestion for reading that that age, but when he's seems to start picking up reading and  can write letters  I'd try All About Spelling.   It's a very non-babyish spelling program, plus just a good program in general.  With this, again if the parents are cooperative, you could do the lessons with him during your session and then send home cards or copies of cards for them to practice with at home.

For handwriting, if you find he knows some but needs work, I suggest Print Path Raise the Roof (you can find it on Teachers Pay Teachers).   It's designed to use with kids who are going from 3 lined paper  to regular school lined paper, but also works on catching and dealing with any problems that have developed.   I used selections from it with my 13 year old to help him with writing problems that had crept up when he was at school.  It's good if you are only filling in gaps or correcting errors.  (Their whole program is similar to handwriting without tears in letter formations and such). 

 

[ktgrok]

Abecedarian is not silly or young, and it is VERY easy to accelerate it, much more so than most phonics programs. You could do a lesson a day instead of a lesson a week with a 10 year old and get through several grade levels - and they have "short" versions of their levels specifically for kids who have some basics, don't need as much handwriting, etc. 

I might do CTC math, which lets you access any level at once and will judge what they need to learn and self adjust. Or khan. 

[mamakelly]

On 2/27/2020 at 4:52 PM, square_25 said:

I like playing VERY hands-on games with the kids, because I really want to check their mathematical sense and not just the ability to shuffle symbols on the page! Let me start the list, and you tell me how they sound, and I'll keep going if you like them. 

First game: Addition War: have you played War before? It's very similar. You play against a kid and put down two cards at the same time as they put down two cards. The winner is the person with the highest total sum. (And if there's a tie, you have a war! Want me to explain that?) The winner takes all the cards and puts them at the bottom of their deck. Rinse and repeat until someone has all the cards! 

This lets you check a couple of things. First of all, you can see how many sums to 20 a kid remembers. Secondly, you can see how many strategies they can use. Are they using counting on? Near doubles? Counting up from 1? 

 

This sounds great. Any more you could share would be helpful.

Update- I did a reading assessment, she is at a mid-3rd grade level which is far better than I was lead to believe. Writing skills are poor, no actual ability to form letters. Starting with HWT's slate to remediate that. Will be doing a k-3 math assessment next time. I was told she still counts on her fingers, so I'm guessing, back to basics for math as well.

[ktgrok]

Print Path is very similar to Handwriting Without Tears, but with regular 3 lined paper not 2 lined. It was also done by an OT, and is on Teachers Pay Teachers. We LOVE it. My son couldn't form ANY letters at the beginning of this year, despite doing handwriting all last year. We started Print Path and it was miraculous.