When IEP accommodations are not provided

[Storygirl]

And I need to say thanks to all of you for your support.

I have to admit that I have been having some emotional swings about this. I am sometimes outraged and determined. But there are some moments when I feel overwhelmed, and I catch myself wondering if I am making a mountain out of a mole hill.

No, I'm really not, and I know that.

I am so non-confrontational (except when I'm mad at DH or my kids 🙄) that this kind of thing takes a toll.

[Paige]

I don't know what your DS's disability is, but if he has a communication disorder (hearing, vision, speech (receptive or expressive related) he is also protected under Title 2 which provides additional and more powerful protections in some case. This was a sticking point for us because they were harping on about the IEP/504 limitations and we were saying that was irrelevent because Title 2 is a proactive requirement that applies everywhere and may entitle you to accessibility tech that you can't get under IEP. The standards for access is higher- it must be as good as what other kids get, not just good enough to make adequate progress.

https://www.ada.gov/doe_doj_eff_comm/doe_doj_eff_comm_faqs.htm

The school wanted DS to advocate for himself everytime too but it's impossible to advocate for yourself in some situations with a hearing impairment. If you don't hear something said, it's like nothing was said at all. We had a terrible time with notes. The teachers just don't want to do it but we felt it was inappropriate for him to take his own notes from a verbal lecture. If he writes down bubblegum instead of Bubba Gump, for instance, he's going to be in trouble when the test comes even if he was sure he heard it all correctly and didn't need help. 

Your DS should not be asked if he wants the notes.

[PeterPan]

54 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I wonder if there is some kind of legal reason that schools prioritize the student's wishes over what the IEP says.

Check, but I think these schools are taken to task over their graduation rates and can lose funding. So if they keep your ds "happy" by cowtowing and not teaching and pushing him through, they retain the funding and the graduation rates. It's always back to the money. 

43 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I have to admit that I have been having some emotional swings about this. I am sometimes outraged and determined. But there are some moments when I feel overwhelmed, and I catch myself wondering if I am making a mountain out of a mole hill.

No, I'm really not, and I know that.

Yup, and it's hard because you worked hard to find good placements for him. And there are a lot of components to sort through. 

 

57 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I guess I need to know what the law says specifically about accommodation refusal

So far, with the people I've talked with locally (various districts around here, not just our district), when kids want to refuse IEP services, etc., the school convenes the team and makes the decision on how to handle that. It's not rogue with someone just deciding it. 

[PeterPan]

24 minutes ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

In my master’s program(special education) it is drilled into us that after a certain age, students have the right to refuse accommodations and modifications.

Thanks for clarifying this.

 

[Paige]

1 hour ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

In my master’s program(special education) it is drilled into us that after a certain age, students have the right to refuse accommodations and modifications.  

I agree he shouldn't be forced to take the notes, but I feel he shouldn't be asked if he wants them. The asking puts the onus on him, it puts him on the spot, and draws attention to him. I would say the notes should be handed to him or placed on his desk, or in some way that he's not being singled out daily by the teacher in front of his peers. Putting them in google classroom ahead of time sounds like a nice compromise. If the teacher was doing that and he knew about it, at some point, I agree he has responsibility to  get them himself. 

[Storygirl]

3 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

In my master’s program(special education) it is drilled into us that after a certain age, students have the right to refuse accommodations and modifications.  We are taught to document each refusal as evidence that as teachers we are trying to comply with the IEP, though the actual process and procedure will vary by school. Your special ed coordinator should be able to tell you their policies on student refusal, but he likely is old enough that he now has the right to refuse.

”Guided notes” seems vague. I will be student teaching shortly and I’m not entirely certain what it means. The teacher may well think he’s following the IEP by providing his teacher notes.  I would recommend spelling out in the IEP exactly the sort of notes your son needs and the format he needs them.  

Truly I think, from the sounds of it, that your son needs more supports.  The resource room may be his LRE, and that’s okay.  Here, kids who can’t be in a gen ed classroom with minimal supports are sent out of district, usually at parental request, as our schools have gone to a full inclusion model. Unfortunately what that means in practicality is that by high school there are few student with autism left, and the school has no idea what to do with the ones that are still there.

Thanks! We will see if they can produce any documentation of refusals. Right now it all seems verbal. As in "whenever I ask him, he says no."

It seems to me, in our case, that it would be rather easy to solve the problem of the refusals. DS has an assisted study hall, and the study hall teacher supervises DS's homework. There is a digital planner that each teacher uses to record homework assignments (because DS has assistance with a planner in the IEP). When DS needs to redo an assignment or retake a quiz, the science teacher would not even need to say anything about it to DS; the assignment could just be placed on the planner as something that needs to be done.

I have not suggested this to the school yet, but I will when we have our meeting.

The guided notes accommodation here is for there to be notes that are partially filled out, so that the student just needs to fill out the parts that are missing. It's meant to help those with writing issues that would have a hard time starting from a blank page, or those who have difficulty getting all notes down quickly enough in the time allotted for note taking.

It is vague, since the specific format could vary, depending on what kind of notes are required.

I can see that teachers might not like this accommodation, because they have to create the document. But it is in the IEP nevertheless. DS has dysgraphia.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, Paige said:

I agree he shouldn't be forced to take the notes, but I feel he shouldn't be asked if he wants them. The asking puts the onus on him, it puts him on the spot, and draws attention to him. I would say the notes should be handed to him or placed on his desk, or in some way that he's not being singled out daily by the teacher in front of his peers. Putting them in google classroom ahead of time sounds like a nice compromise. If the teacher was doing that and he knew about it, at some point, I agree he has responsibility to  get them himself. 

This is a key point when it comes to DS. DS has an ODD diagnosis and also ASD. His first response to any question that poses demands is "no." 

And in this case, it succeeds for him, because it allows him to avoid doing the extra work required to repeat assignments.

The teacher does not ask if DS wants copies of teacher's notes (also one of his accommodations). The teacher posts them on the digital classroom, so anyone in the class can look at them on the computer or print them out. The teacher (sometimes/ always -- I don't know how consistent this is) has printed copies available for students to take with them after class. DS does not take them. But we can and have printed them at home, so that he has them in his folder.

DS does not want to feel different from other students, and the teacher, if anything, is overly aware of this. He has said things in his emails such as, "I could give DS an alternate assignment, but I'm not sure how to do this, since DS would be the only one with something different." So he has not modified assignments for him, as far as I can tell, even though it would be acceptable under his IEP to do so, and even though we as parents have agreed to it. And even though the special ed coordinator for the district told us that the teacher could be modifying assignments.

Edited October 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

These are things DS has declined:

Retaking quizzes or redoing assignments (anything can have a retake, other than unit tests).

DS has said no to the teacher regarding redoing assignments. There is a process: the student has to request a retake by filling out a form with the name of the assignment, writing out the reason that the student wants to redo it, getting a parent signature, and returning the form to the teacher. This form is not online, however, so the very first thing is that DS would have to do is ask for the form.

When we realized the process of doing the form could be presenting a barrier (for multiple reasons), we asked the teacher if DS could skip the form. We gave blanket permission for him to redo anything. The teacher agreed.

At home, we have discussed (multiple times) with DS the need to redo things and not refuse, and he will agree at home that he is willing to do it. But the teacher says that when he asks, DS says no.

Honestly, because there is no documentation, I don't even know how many times the teacher has talked to DS about retaking things. Because it was set up as that process with the form, it was up to the student to make a request. I'm sure DS has not requested to retake anything. Whenever I ask DS if the teacher brought up doing retakes with him this week (any week), DS says no.

But we have discussed with the teacher via email ad nauseum all of the issues related to retakes. The special ed coordinator said that retakes do not need to be presented as optional for DS; he can be required to do them. But the teacher comments in the email always go back to his feeling that he does not want to require DS to do things DS does not want to do.

Teacher's notes

DS does not accept them when they are available in class, but since they are online, it does not matter much that he refuses them in person. There have been very few teacher's notes, though.

Declining the teacher's notes is not a big deal. The teacher keeps bringing it up, as if this is a big problem. But DS has access to the notes, so it's not a problem.

The truth is that the teacher's notes are not very well done or helpful. It is not as if there are awesome teacher's notes that would help DS so much, if only DS would use them.

So I would love there to be better teacher notes, but DS declining them is not an issue from our perspective.

 

That's all that DS has declined, I believe. 

He has not been provided with any guided notes for science class. The only student note-taking has been related to this new series of video-related lessons.

So he has not refused guided notes. He has not been provided with any.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

I am not opposed to DS being placed in a resource level classroom, if he cannot succeed in the gen ed class.

But I do think that he can get a C in this class, if we can get him to redo assignments where he has scored lower than a C.

And I think we can figure out a way to get him to redo assignments. As I mentioned up thread, just put them in his planner and have the study hall teacher tell him that is what he is to work on that day. Don't present it as optional. Just assign it.

So if he can get a C in this class, and since it is a better social placement for him, then I don't think we need to change his placement. Will he learn a ton of science concepts? Probably not. Will it matter in the long run if he does not remember things from 9th grade science class? No, I don't think it will matter.

That sounds kind of like I don't care about academics. I most certainly do. But I also know DS and have realistic expectations for what he, personally, will be able to do academically.

[Storygirl]

Because of the extent of DS's math and reading disabilities, I will not be at all surprised if we reach a point in high school where he cannot be in gen ed math and English classes and will be moved down to the resource room class.

But the science resource room class, I am not sold on quite yet. I may get there, but not yet.

I mentioned up thread that DS has a friend who moved from DS's science class down to the resource room. At first, the friend said it was great, because it was easier to understand. But then he complained to DS that he felt the teacher was talking to the students like they were stupid.

And now, after a few weeks, the friend has been moved back up to the gen ed class again.

I know each student is different, but DS and his friend share similar academic challenges.

So I'm not willing to agree to that lower placement unless we have tried everything that can be done with his current placement. And I do not believe that everything has been done well yet.

Have him retake things with low scores. Give him guided notes when note-taking is required, because DS cannot take adequate notes. Creating the guided notes will take the teacher's time; I get that, but there is really not a lot of note-taking in this class, unless the teacher keeps doing these video things, so it's not like guided notes have to be created daily by the teacher. Until October, there was no need for them at all in science class.

There are other things in his IEP which would offer even more support, such as modifying assignments, that I don't even think would be needed, though they would be helpful.

I'll be honest and say that I am not convinced that this is the best teacher. I have not shared on this thread all of the interactions we've had with him, but there are reasons that I think he is just not the greatest. And I think he has written off DS as a slacker.

I'm not willing to change DS's placement, because a special ed teacher finds DS annoying to work with. And there have been indications in our communication with the teacher that suggest that.

 

Note: I have no personal opinion about how the teacher talks to the students, and that description is from DS's friend. But it does represent a perspective that I would guess that DS will share. (He did move up from a resource room level social studies class in 8th grade into the gen ed social studies class, specifically because DS felt that he was not with academic peers, so it is a distinction that DS would be likely to notice and be bothered by).

Edited October 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Lecka]

I think it is important for self-advocacy and personal autonomy that kids be allowed to make choices.

But then I think there is a middle ground where things are practical.

Maybe a change needs to be made when a student is declining, or alternately, maybe it is appropriate for there to be a decision that it will be required.  

I really do think it’s a good and important principle, but it doesn’t have to be like — to the point it is not working out well in practice.  

I think part of it too is, if a student isn’t going to use a certain accommodation, maybe there needs to be a different one.  Then a different one can be developed during school, and be in a good place (hopefully) by graduation.  I think that is ideal.  If there’s an accommodation they have never cared for but it’s what they have to do, they may not do it after graduation, and not have a Plan B waiting in the wings.  

[DawnM]

9 hours ago, Medicmom2.0 said:

In my master’s program(special education) it is drilled into us that after a certain age, students have the right to refuse accommodations and modifications.  We are taught to document each refusal as evidence that as teachers we are trying to comply with the IEP, though the actual process and procedure will vary by school. Your special ed coordinator should be able to tell you their policies on student refusal, but he likely is old enough that he now has the right to refuse.

”Guided notes” seems vague. I will be student teaching shortly and I’m not entirely certain what it means. The teacher may well think he’s following the IEP by providing his teacher notes.  I would recommend spelling out in the IEP exactly the sort of notes your son needs and the format he needs them.  

Truly I think, from the sounds of it, that your son needs more supports.  The resource room may be his LRE, and that’s okay.  Here, kids who can’t be in a gen ed classroom with minimal supports are sent out of district, usually at parental request, as our schools have gone to a full inclusion model. Unfortunately what that means in practicality is that by high school there are few student with autism left, and the school has no idea what to do with the ones that are still there.

 

I am just reading this thread and trying to catch up.  Yes to all MedicMom posted.  I don't do IEPs but I am the 504 Coordinator and conduct 504s often.  Student refusal is definitely documented and I can also say that accommodations are a team decision.  So, if 3 teachers don't feel Johnny needs extended time and can document that Johnny never used it in the last 2 marking periods, it can be removed, even if Johnny's mother is insisting that it remain on the 504.  

And agreed on guided notes being vague.  I would suggest adding in something like "Hard copy of notes" as that indicated the teacher must provide all notes she/he expects students to write.

You may need to ask for an addendum to the IEP and pull the team together again.  You are entitled to that.  I would caution against calling a lawyer at this point.  You have gone through the teacher, that isn't working.  Go to the next level, cc an AP and counselor on your next email.  Ask to speak to an AP by phone.  Call the principal.  Next would be to ask who the IEP director is for the district and contact that person.  If you still don't feel you have gotten anywhere, contact an advocate and as that an advocate attend a meeting with you.  THEN contact an attorney.  

I can tell you that the parents who threaten and contact a lawyer immediately may get the district's attention, but they also end up with teachers not willing to work with them on any level but eggshells and distance.  If you want a relationship, go up the ladder gradually.  

[PeterPan]

10 hours ago, Storygirl said:

As in "whenever I ask him, he says no."

And the crock is, he's being put in a position where it's easy to say no and hard to say yes. That's totally different from handing him the pages and him throwing them in the trash. 

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Storygirl said:

DS has said no to the teacher regarding redoing assignments.

Are there other ways they can handle this, like changing on the front end to make him more likely to succeed? It makes sense why he doesn't want to be penalized with more work than others.

Your logic makes sense on the placement!

[Storygirl]

4 hours ago, DawnM said:

 

I am just reading this thread and trying to catch up.  Yes to all MedicMom posted.  I don't do IEPs but I am the 504 Coordinator and conduct 504s often.  Student refusal is definitely documented and I can also say that accommodations are a team decision.  So, if 3 teachers don't feel Johnny needs extended time and can document that Johnny never used it in the last 2 marking periods, it can be removed, even if Johnny's mother is insisting that it remain on the 504.  

And agreed on guided notes being vague.  I would suggest adding in something like "Hard copy of notes" as that indicated the teacher must provide all notes she/he expects students to write.

You may need to ask for an addendum to the IEP and pull the team together again.  You are entitled to that.  I would caution against calling a lawyer at this point.  You have gone through the teacher, that isn't working.  Go to the next level, cc an AP and counselor on your next email.  Ask to speak to an AP by phone.  Call the principal.  Next would be to ask who the IEP director is for the district and contact that person.  If you still don't feel you have gotten anywhere, contact an advocate and as that an advocate attend a meeting with you.  THEN contact an attorney.  

I can tell you that the parents who threaten and contact a lawyer immediately may get the district's attention, but they also end up with teachers not willing to work with them on any level but eggshells and distance.  If you want a relationship, go up the ladder gradually.  

His normally scheduled IEP meeting is on November 4, only three weeks away, so I think we can wait. In the meantime, we have asked to meet with the teacher and the special education manager. She is in charge for all of special education and IEPs for the district. She's been copied on all of the email messages so far, and I've had a few discussions in person with her during this first quarter, so she is informed.

DH and were just talking a couple of days ago about alerting the principal. The principal is not in the loop. We did mention in one email last week that we were considering whether he should be informed and asked to attend the meeting with the science intervention teacher (the main science teacher is on maternity leave) and the special ed coordinator.

We have been debating whether we should notify the principal and/or AP now, or do it after we try meeting with the science teacher first.

If there is any documentation of refusal other than what is in this email chain, I have not seen it or been told that it exists. DS has not refused to do any regular assignments in any class. He is just refusing to do (optional) retakes. I don't know if that matters for documentation purposes.

We have discussed many times that retakes do not have to be optional for DS. The special ed coordinator for the district said the "option" can be taken away. The science teacher has expressed a lot of reluctance (in these emails) about taking away the option and requiring retakes. And he has not had DS do any retakes, other than when he had the whole class redo some things last week.

 

 

Edited October 12, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

I find it frustrating that the school says they can do something. The teacher expresses reluctance and does not follow through. Yet the school is now suggesting the placement change. That does not sit right with me.

The placement change would need to be discussed in an IEP meeting. I won't agree to it during this upcoming meeting with the teacher.

[DawnM]

3 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

His normally schedule IEP meeting is on November 4, only three weeks away, so I think we can wait. In the meantime, we have asked to meet with the teacher and the special education manager. She is in charge for all of special education and IEPs for the district. She's been copied on all of the email messages so far, and I've had a few discussions in person with her during this first quarter, so she is informed.

DH and were just talking a couple of days ago about alerting the principal. The principal is not in the loop. We did mention in one email last week that we were considering whether he should be informed and asked to attend the meeting with the science intervention teacher (the main science teacher is on maternity leave) and the special ed coordinator.

We have been debating whether we should notify the principal and/or AP now, or do it after we try meeting with the science teacher first.

If there is any documentation of refusal other than what is in this email chain, I have not seen it or been told that it exists. DS has not refused to do any regular assignments in any class. He is just refusing to do (optional) retakes. I don't know if that matters for documentation purposes.

We have discussed many times that retakes do not have to be optional for DS. The special ed coordinator for the district said the "option" can be taken away. The science teacher has expressed a lot of reluctance (in these emails) about taking away the option and requiring retakes. And he has not had DS do any retakes, other than when he had the whole class redo some things last week.

 

 

 

An administrator is supposed to be present when you hold your IEP.  If I were you, I would ask who that administrator will be and request that you can meet with her/him when you go in.  That will give that person an opportunity to become familiar with the situation.  You have every right to say that you feel the IEP has not been followed and you understand this is a legal issue and you will not want your son to be penalized for the teacher's mistake in following the IEP and you would like the lowest grades dropped or whatever.  

You also may want to think about the wording of the IEP and specific implementation of it.  The example is the vagueness of notes, but there may be other vague things on there you want to firm up.

If they use anything that seems vague, ask how it will be implemented and if it sounds very, "oh, maybe this or that" ask that the wording be specific and the implementation measurable.  

[Storygirl]

Thanks! Because of changing schools, last fall was the first time we have had an IEP meeting with this school district. I always have a lot of discussion points, and his IEP meetings are always very long. I'll review his current IEP for vague wording and watch for it in the one we will be creating.

Last year the administration person who was present was the district special education coordinator. Her actual title is Student Services Coordinator. But she said an an email that she "truly believes" a change of placement would be best, and  since we may be in disagreement with her, it might be a good idea to ask if another administrator can be present as well.

[PeterPan]

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

she said an an email that she "truly believes" a change of placement would be best

So I'm just asking, but are you able to *see* that classroom and see what it's like? Could it vary from school to school and be better at some schools than others? I can get where you wouldn't go on your ds' impression, lol. That's like when I toured an autism school near us and they showed us the room where they'd try to place him. Even though they had their reasons, it would have caused way more problems. But I don't know if you're actually allowed to go see it for yourself when the dc is already enrolled. Our local school offered me a tour, sure, but they want us to enroll to get the funding.

Edited October 12, 2019 by PeterPan

[Storygirl]

Yes, I could visit the class. I saw a few minutes of one of the resource room science classes when we toured a few years ago, but I don't know what grade level it was for.

DS is supposed to be visiting the class for a day. Maybe this week, but I'm not sure exactly when.

Also, I'm going to see the mom of the friend who tried out that class temporarily. DS is going to homecoming tonight with a group of four or five guy friends, and they are meeting beforehand so that the moms can take pictures. I'll ask her if I can call her to get her impressions of the class.

[Storygirl]

Okay, small update. I talked with the other mom and got the scoop about their experience.

They requested for their son to switch to the resource room level science class, because he was struggling similarly to my son and hovering close to failing. In their case, they did not discuss things with the science intervention teacher or special ed director (as we have). They talked first with their IEP case manager (from the English department) and the guidance counselor. He moved down at the family's request.

And within a week, their son was back in the gen ed co-taught class, because the resource room class was a huge drop in academic level and placed him with students who were not his academic peers. It was an obvious wrong fit.

Obviously, what is right for another kid is not necessarily right for mine. HOWEVER, the two boys are at a similar academic level.

And their son is in the resource room class for English. (My son was in that class with him last year but was moved up). Their son likes the resource room English class, because it moves at an accessible pace. But the science class was different and not the correct fit.

DS will still visit the science resource room class, to see for himself.

[Storygirl]

Oh, and the mom volunteered that they have not been impressed with the intervention science teacher (who also is the intervention teacher for the social studies class, so both boys have him for two classes, plus he is DS's case manager). She said they have not felt that he is as on top of things as he should be.

I had not told her any of my own feelings about this teacher when she brought that up, and I had not told her any details about our interactions with him.

I don't know. It just makes me feel better that DH and I are not the only ones who have been disappointed with some things about the teacher. Because I would rather have objective reactions to all of this, instead of emotional ones.

The emotions are inevitable, of course, but I don't want them to lead my decision making.

 

[Lecka]

That is good information!

[PeterPan]

9 hours ago, Storygirl said:

the mom volunteered that they have not been impressed with the intervention science teacher (who also is the intervention teacher for the social studies class, so both boys have him for two classes, plus he is DS's case manager). She said they have not felt that he is as on top of things as he should be.

So then what are your recourses if the issue is really the teacher, not the placement? Tough it out for the year and hope next year is better? Would this be a 4 year thing or one? Did the other student have his situation improve the following year with new classes?

Edited October 13, 2019 by PeterPan

[Lecka]

I think if your son is going to homecoming with a small group and one is from this class, that is very important for saying it’s a peer group and a social fit for him.  

There are so many ways to provide more support in class when it’s the social fit.  

I think that’s probably the most compelling thing you could say.  It’s probably more compelling in every way than academics because — on academics I think the other opinion has good points also.  

But I think it would be hard to say it would be better socially with this information.  

 

 

[Storygirl]

14 hours ago, PeterPan said:

So then what are your recourses if the issue is really the teacher, not the placement? Tough it out for the year and hope next year is better? Would this be a 4 year thing or one? Did the other student have his situation improve the following year with new classes?

We've had a crazy busy weekend, so I haven't had a chance to think about it much.

But this intervention teacher is assigned only two cover two classes (probably multiple classes per day of each) -- physical science, and the social studies class. Physical science is 9th grade only. He might be the intervention specialist for the sophomore level social studies classes as well. I'm not sure about that.

They could always switch him to cover different subjects and/or grade levels, of course. But if not, DS would have him in (perhaps) just one class next year and then no others. So not for four years.

I don't know if they generally keep the same case managers for all four years. If we keep having trouble working with him, I would consider requesting different case manager for next year.

The student who switched to a lower level and then switched back is just a freshman, too. He was only in the lower class for a week. But the fit was poor enough that they are willing to address the problems with this science class in other ways. The mom said he's been doing better the last few weeks, so perhaps the video lessons that caused DS's grade to plummet were a better fit for him.

 

12 hours ago, Lecka said:

I think if your son is going to homecoming with a small group and one is from this class, that is very important for saying it’s a peer group and a social fit for him.  

There are so many ways to provide more support in class when it’s the social fit.  

I think that’s probably the most compelling thing you could say.  It’s probably more compelling in every way than academics because — on academics I think the other opinion has good points also.  

But I think it would be hard to say it would be better socially with this information.  

 

 

Homecoming was fun. The boys met at this other friends house, and there were 10 boys!! So the parents hired a limo as a surprise (even the other parents did not know). It was a really fun surprise, though if I had known ahead of time, I would have had some worries about the plan.

DS had a good time and asked a girl to dance for one slow dance! That surprised me.

I didn't know the other 8 boys, though DS has talked about some of them. It was also fun to see him smiling and interacting with them. He only smiles when he is with friends, not at home, and not with other adults. The smiling is a huge indicator that social fit with peers is an important thing to prioritize.

[Lecka]

That is awesome!!!!!!!!!!!!  

[Storygirl]

My stomach is in knots right now. DH says that we have received a response from an email that we sent this morning to the special ed coordinator about why we disagree with her suggestion to switch him to the science resource room class at this point. He said he thinks it struck a nerve with her, so I can't bring myself to read it.

I hate conflict so much. It makes me feel sick.

Okay, DH just texted me to say that he thinks she may be annoyed that we copied the principal and the guidance counselor to bring them into the discussion, and that I shouldn't be afraid to read it.

I will read it later.

 

[Lecka]

It's okay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  You can do this!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It will be worth it 🙂 Think about the homecoming night 🙂 

[Lecka]

I would be ill, too, but ------- it is stressful for everyone.  You have got this!  

[kbutton]

You know what you want from this situation, and I think it's a good plan. If they had supported you from the beginning, then everyone could potentially be happy right now.

I think it's also likely that they really don't want to deal with autism particulars due to the scholarships. Well, they don't get to choose. 

I really like Peter Pan's idea that if your son doesn't take initiative to fill out a retake paper, it's totally different than taking the form and putting it in the trash--really, a default "no" to everything is not being addressed. At all. And they lied.

Maybe the IS is worried about getting into trouble over your son's "rights," but IMO, it's not in your son's best interest to refuse, and he has MANY ways of refusing even if they opt to make things not optional. 

[Storygirl]

Until this morning, no one from the high school administration had been in the loop, and we felt it was time. But I didn't want to send the principal the entire string of previous messages. There are about 20 lengthy messages in that string. He can ask to see them, if he wants to. 

My message today was addressed to the special ed coordinator and copied to the high school principal and guidance counselor and the intervention science teacher.We needed to bring in the administration at some point, and since our email discussion had been going on since October 3, it seemed time, or perhaps long past time.

Also, I wanted to stop addressing things to the science teacher, because that was getting us nowhere. So I changed whom I was addressing and copying in my message today. Because I was starting a related but new email chain, it seemed to be a good time to start copying the administration, which I had not done before.

I briefly saw, before I had to stop reading, she starts her response with "I don't believe I said X."

Well, I didn't quote her exactly. Fine. I was careful in my wording, but she said "pretty significant" and I said "enough." I rewrote and edited my response so much before sending it that I remember trying to be very careful with that, but I should have just quoted her in my sentence.

She also said in her other email about the change of placement, "I truly believe it is probably the best course of action." And in my email, I said she "suggested" it. That seemed like a suggestion to me.

DH thinks she is also annoyed because she had said in her email that she would touch base with us on Monday and probably feels we jumped the gun and didn't wait to hear from her.

Well, "touching base" goes both ways. My last response to her other email included my comment that I wanted to talk about placement in person. I changed my mind and decided that I wanted to write out my thoughts instead. I waited until Monday to do so, knowing that she was busy in meetings on Friday and needed to think about other things.

I understand why she would feel annoyed that we brought the principal into it.

Edited October 14, 2019 by Storygirl

[Lecka]

I don't think it is reasonable for her to feel annoyed by it, though I can also understand why she would.  

It's totally reasonable, though, in my opinion.  

I think this email to you sounds maybe unprofessional and I would be tempted to forward it to the principal.  I don't know if I would or not or if it is that kind of thing.  But if it seems like -- it's not a professional way to respond to you, I would do it, because -- professional is better and if people are thinking "I should behave in a manner where I wouldn't be embarassed if the principal saw this email" then that is probably more professional behavior.

And it's too bad when it gets to that point for sure ------ but sometimes that is how things go. 

And then I think too, sometimes it can back off from that some to be not-actually-tense.  OR ELSE maybe it gets to where it's more like -- you see these people only a handful more times ever.  

[Lecka]

I do think sometimes -- a little time passes, and things do cool off, and it just quits being as tense.  

Honestly -- I think when things are going well for the child, then the tension goes down.  When something is not going as well for the child, that is when the tension goes up.  So I get to where I feel like ------- I definitely do my best and I think people at school also do their best, but it is inherently tense sometimes when things are not going so well in some way.  It is not one of those nice meetings you have when everything is going well!!!!!!!  But then if things do go better it can get back there sometimes.  It is just inherent in there being something not going well to some extent.  It's just not a very nice situation because there is inherently some kind of problem and it is probably not very easy.  

[Lecka]

Also -- the principal is totally capable of hearing your side and the other person's side and splitting some things down the middle, or maybe it is appropriate for the other person to get feedback about how they are communicating.  

[Lecka]

But really sometimes things are just not inherently agreeable, but that is okay, things can go better, and your child has to be your priority.  

[Storygirl]

Thanks for the support!!

She did copy her email to the principal, since it was in response to my message, which he was copied on.

I just sent her a personal email (but also copied the principal) to say that I was just wanting him to be in the loop and explained why we picked this time to copy him, when we were not copying him before.

I didn't want either of them to have the impression that we were trying to go over her head, because that's not true. It's just that the principal should know if parents are having a 20 message email chain with a science teacher and feeling unsatisfied. Because he supervises the teachers.

I didn't say this part in my email:  It's also because it has reached the point of talking about excusing grades and IEP accommodations and placement decisions --- that is all bigger stuff. And the principal should know about the big stuff happening in his school. Especially when parents are not sure the people representing the school are understanding.

I have had a good relationship with the special education coordinator, and I thought it was worth trying to smooth ruffled feathers, so that we can continue having the good interactions without undercurrents. And I copied the principal on this friendly toned message, so that she wouldn't be left feeling like we expressed unhappy things publicly and would only say friendly things privately.

 

[Storygirl]

1 hour ago, Lecka said:

And then I think too, sometimes it can back off from that some to be not-actually-tense.  OR ELSE maybe it gets to where it's more like -- you see these people only a handful more times ever.  

Ha!!! I am totally the kind of person who would rather not SEE people I've been in conflict with. I would prefer to avoid them.

Really, I needed to send that "nice" email for myself. She suggested that we meet tomorrow, and I need to be able to walk into the meeting not feeling nervous about seeing her. I wanted her to know that we want the tone of the meeting to be cooperative.

[Lecka]

This sounds good!!!!!!! I hope it goes well 🙂

[Storygirl]

The principal responded to say that he cannot be at our meeting tomorrow and added a positive comment about the special ed coordinator. I think if she had any worry that we were complaining about her to the principal, her mind should be at ease.

We still have a lot of things to hash out, but I'm hopeful we can start the meeting on a good note instead of with bad feelings. I think that can help. If I have to choose between making sure there are good feelings, or making sure that we advocate for what is best for DS, I will always be the advocate, even when it feels uncomfortable for me. But we have four years to get through with this school, and I hope we can keep it cordial along the way, as we work through things.

We did ask for the poor grades to be dropped, if we can't sort things out before the end of the grading period on Wednesday. No response about that, yet.

[PeterPan]

So your meeting is soon? I don’t think the cooir is annoyed or that you did something wrong. Her goal is to keep her job and screwups can cost her her cushy well paying administrative job. So she’s your friend with a knife, always. She has to protect both herself and the legal position of the school. She is there to implement the law and prevent lawsuits. Coors who lose in court can lose their jobs.

Sounds like the principal is trying to calm things which seems good. These are resolveable problems. Like fire the teacher haha. But seriously what improves it for the next kid? That’s what I wanted out of my IEP fight. Have me vision.

[Storygirl]

I'm just back from the meeting. It was cordial and helpful, although everyone realizes there will be ongoing things to work out. The coordinator and the intervention science teacher were both there.

As far as the IEP accommodation for guided notes -- We discussed that some, although we had a lot to cover, so I can't say it was the main focus, but it was addressed. DH and I did not push on the idea that the grades for those assignments could be dropped, because really his grades were not the main issue. The greater issue was why having an open note test is hard for him, and how we can ensure that he has adequate notes, when note-taking is hard for him.

Ultimately, the guided note accommodation will need to be discussed at his IEP meeting, which is at the beginning of November. That accommodation I'm sure will be revised in some way, based on what we have learned works and does not work for DS and what works and does not work within the structure of the classes.

We found out that the special ed coordinator had had a conversation with the science intervention teacher, during which they had talked about using teacher's notes instead of guided notes for DS, since DS did not want to use materials in class that would set him apart as different. Which.....okay, that's a good point, and it's something that came up in the email chain as a reason that guided notes might be difficult to implement. But no one told us that the two of them had decided to use teacher notes in the place of guided notes (the spec ed coordinator apologized), so we kept thinking and asking, "Why are they not providing guided notes," and kept getting responses back about "teacher notes."

Which led us to finally insist that the IEP had to be followed, which turned the tone of the email chain, which caused stress all around.

So there was a communication issue there, and I could have chosen to be mad about it and say that they were wrong to make a decision not to follow an accommodation like that without parents' input.

But I think it was just a mistake on their part, not a grievous error. And the greater point is not for us to say "gotcha, you did something incorrectly, because this should have been decided by the IEP team, not just the teachers" but to focus on what will help DS. And their intent was to help find a system that would work better than guided notes.

So we didn't press them on the idea that the IEP was not followed but focused on what should happen from now on.

We came up with a list of things to try between now and the IEP meeting, so that we can have some data for the meeting that will help make the IEP better.

The special ed coordinator overruled the class rule that unit tests cannot be retaken. We looked at DS's recent unit test, which he failed (I brought it with me) and discussed what might be tripping him up. This relates to the open-note question, because it was partially an open-note test, and DS had adequate notes this time but still had trouble. We also saw that he missed most of the last section of the test, so he may have run out of steam and would do better with a second try. The special ed coordinator suggested he also may have test anxiety. We came up with the following:

(1) Directly following taking the test with the rest of the class, DS will go over the questions orally with his study hall teacher (the academic assist study hall is the next period), to make sure that his ability to answer the questions is not hindered by his writing issues.

(2) DS can make corrections and get 1/2 credit back for each corrected answer that is right, whenever his initial score is less than 70%.

Also, for note-taking, we are trying out having him retype the teacher's notes, instead of using guided notes. That way he will have a second exposure to the material. Plus he will share the document with the teacher, who can spot errors. Plus we can go over the notes with him at home as homework, and we can help DS add things that might help him -- either by adding some context to the facts, or by altering the format to make it easier for him to find information when using notes on tests.

This is because the teacher's notes are not in themselves an adequate replacement for DS taking his own notes, for various reasons. (We talked about the teacher's handwriting being hard to read, for one thing, which was a bit awkward). It's an attempt to bridge the gap between DS needing guided notes, but teacher notes being the best thing to offer him in the classroom.

We will see how it goes. He won't like the extra work and may balk, but if we can get him on board with typing up notes, I think it may help. And is something that can be done across all classes. It will require me or DH to provide some oversight -- since we know DS best and can help him customize the notes better than a teacher could. Which could backfire, because DS does not like to work with us.

It's a lot of things to try between now and the IEP meeting, but hopefully it will help us come up with a better accommodation for note-taking in the IEP.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Storygirl

[Storygirl]

We also discussed a ton of other related things, such as the class placement issue (tricky questions  that we still to work out regarding that).

And we tweaked how his digital planner will be done. Changed the format slightly. The science teacher said he can write more detail in there, so that we will have a better written record. One of the things we have faced at home recently is that DS will say that he doesn't have to do everything that the assignment says he has to do. All that we can tell as parents is what the regular posted instructions are, so that can create tension. We say, "Look, you need to do X and Y, because the online classroom says so," and DS says, "No, they said in class that I only have to do X." Or "You are supposed to work on Z," and DS says, "No, it's not homework, we are doing that during class time tomorrow."

We also suggested something else to make the planner better, which the teacher agreed to try out (using the calendar function on the school's main digital platform, instead of having the planner be a Google spreadsheet -- because that will mean it's easier for us at home to check one place for all of the information).

I admit that I felt a little sad reading a thread on Chat yesterday, where everyone agreed that a 14 year old procrastinator should not be propped up by more reminders from mom and needed to learn his lesson the hard way. DS15 takes the hard path every time, but does not learn from it. We have experimented a little with being more hands-off this fall and trusting DS when he says he has no homework. We have to backtrack now and go back to checking his planner each night ourselves.

And he needs help with studying, whether he wants the help or not, because he needs multiple exposures to the content before he will understand it. This is connected to his class placement. He would probably learn more content in the resource room placement. But he definitely benefits socially from being in the gen ed class.

Anyway, this is off of the topic now of my initial IEP question. But I'm sharing, because I process when writing things out. And because I think it can help others who might face similar struggles to know that they are not alone.

 

[Storygirl]

The special ed coordinator knows from experience that I make myself a lot of written notes before the IEP meeting. This year's meeting is on a Monday. She is requesting the teachers to give her their input for the initial draft by the Tuesday before the meeting, so that she can send me the draft. Then I can respond back to her with my notes by Friday, before the IEP meeting. Some things can just be changed in the draft, due to my input. And for other things, they can be prepared to discuss my points.

Usually she sends parents the draft IEP a day or two ahead, and I will get it almost a week ahead. So they are wanting to find ways to work better together.

Also, IEP meetings are usually scheduled for an hour, with one gen ed teacher representing the teacher on the team. For DS's IEP meeting, they are scheduling a sub. That sub will cover each of DS's classes, so that each of his teachers can take a turn to come to talk about their recommendations and observations. And each teacher will be allotted 25 minutes. So this will give us time to go over things in detail. Last year's IEP meeting was over two hours, so this year they are just counting on needing so much extra time.

I joked that I was planning to do something different this time and would keep my mouth shut, which help would make the IEP meeting shorter. Everyone laughed.

The meeting today lasted for 90 minutes.

[Innisfree]

23 minutes ago, Storygirl said:

I'm sharing, because I process when writing things out. And because I think it can help others who might face similar struggles to know that they are not alone.

Storygirl, I just wanted to thank you for this thread. We're in a very similar position atm, with dd (almost 15 yo, ASD, etc) starting public school in 9th grade after years of homeschool. I spent what seemed like all last spring getting her an IEP for this fall, and we're also running into issues with how it actually gets implemented. Obviously this is going to be an ongoing process. Hearing how it goes for others is helpful.

[Lecka]

This sounds like it went well 🙂

I’m glad!!!!!!! 

The follow up at the IEP meeting sounds good to me, too, I think that is a fair amount of time to try things and see how things go.

And I think at this point plan to stay on top of the school following through by having follow-up meetings.  

For a while I had a set meeting every two weeks.  

That is a lot.

But anytime something hasn’t been being done and it’s new or maybe shaky, I think it’s at risk of going along for a while and then dropping off over time.  I think after the IEP meeting, maybe set another follow-up meeting, and keep doing that for a while, like at least a month or two or a meeting or two past where things are going well.  

And then expect similar next year with new teachers.  And hopefully it goes better but it is the kind of thing where it can start shaky every year I think.  

Yay!!!!!!!! 

It does sound like there is an honest effort and willingness and I think that goes a long way!!!!!!

Even though I don’t think that can make things be easy when — sometimes it is hard to figure things out, implement, communicate, etc.  But I think sometimes it is just a process (vomit lol).  

[Lecka]

Like there is part of me that thinks — okay, so a teacher is fired?  What does that mean?  Starting over from scratch with a new teacher?  If a teacher isn’t actually a mean person or a jerk who just shouldn’t be working with children, sometimes that just means — yay, starting over at ground zero.  Like — sometimes it’s probably going to be a process just because — that is often reality.  

 

[Storygirl]

About meetings -- We got stuck in that long email chain with the teacher. The teacher would respond to my message but say something new or something that I felt I had to comment on. And then the teacher would respond again, but ask a question that I had to answer. And then the teacher would respond to that, and I would disagree with one of his points and didn't want to let it stand, so I would write back. And so on. Blah!

That was frustrating for everyone, I think.

So a meeting would be better, with this particular teacher. I have not had the crazy never-ending email thread problem with other teachers at the school. That whole email thread started with me asking for a meeting in the first message. Next time I think I will just ask to schedule a meeting and reserve my comments until we are together in person.

Edited October 15, 2019 by Storygirl

[kbutton]

The changes sound positive, and I am glad that the meeting hashed out some possible solutions. I agree that having a meeting to avoid the e-mail drama with the teacher is a good idea!

[Lecka]

I had biweekly meetings for a while.  It exists lol.