New Puppy we are considering! Need list to buy and questions! UPDATE !!! SEPT 4, May 3 - PICTURES!!!

[AbcdeDooDah]

I don't feel so bad now about getting the prong collar for our husky. I resisted for months,. I tried a "no-pull' harness that would have her literally walking diagonally as her feet dug into the ground. She's only 40 lbs but drags and pulls so hard we've almost fallen several times. I gave up and got the Sprenger. It was instantly like night and day. Walking her is so much easier! I worried about looks from other dog park people but noticed that almost every husky has one! 

[Pawz4me]

1 hour ago, Selkie said:

Oh yeah, you're probably right! Everyone I hang around with has lifelong experience with dogs (and much more challenging animals like horses!), so I forget that two puppies could be a handful for some people!🙂

Two puppies are a handful for anyone. No good breeder that I know would ever agree to sell two puppies to the same home at once. No good trainer would ever advise it. It's really difficult to raise one puppy "right" and almost impossible to do so with two at the same time.

@sheryl -- If you're worried about puppy eating too fast then rather than put anything in the bowl I'd buy a special bowl designed for that purpose. Before such bowls were available the usual trick was to put a good sized rock in the dog's bowl--large/heavy enough that there was no risk of swallowing it by mistake, of course. The dog you know may carefully eat around a ball, but many smarter dogs would simply pick up the ball and drop it on the floor, or flip it out of the bowl with their nose. Not that I'm implying the dog you know isn't smart, just saying that trick wouldn't work for a lot of dogs.

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, sheryl said:

  🙂   Re: dog on floor of car - is that inside or out of carrier?  Puppy in carrier and not crate?  I don't know if a crate would fit but carrier might. 

So sorry -- I was unclear. Guide Dogs protocol is baby puppy in a carrier (either back seat of a car, or the back floor of an SUV), and then older puppies (after 4 months) on the floor where backseat passenger feet would go. But, this is also partly due to how the adult/trained Guide Dogs will ride in cars with their unsighted human partner -- right at the feet of the human, still in harness.
 

Potty training - that's a hard one.  You've offered good "rule of thumb" and I appreciate that.  I'm guessing it does depend on breed (?) and maybe size of dog. ?   We were told to suspend drinking for the night at around 7 pm to help avoid accidents at night. 

Yes, that's a great idea.

If you crate train and have the puppy sleeping in the crate at night, they do not want to soil their "den", so they WILL wake you up to let you know they need to go out. And since you're taking them out, you might as well practice the relieving command *as* they are relieving and then you reward, which all reinforces the relieving command with very little effort on your part. I keep a little cup of kibble in the bedroom, up out of dog reach, but right near the crate, and grab a few pieces as I bend down to open the crate, so I have the reward already to go.

Also, when doing initial crate training, you might also teach the command "wait" so that the dog doesn't launch out of the crate whenever the door opens, lol.
 

Rewards/training - this is hard for me.  I know I can and need to do much MUCH better in this area. 

You might look for a dog training classes or a dog trainer to work with you for the first weeks, and help you get into the habit. Also, you can wear a "bait bag" or tuck a handful of kibble in a pocket every morning so you always have the reward on you ready to go. (I have a bait bag that has a waist strap and a clip, so easy to wear like a fanny pack, or clip to a pocket or waistband. It also has a pocket for a roll of plastic bags for dog litter clean-up, and a place for your keys and/or small wallet.)

You can take 5-10 minutes several times a day and work on a different command each brief training session time. That keeps it within the puppy's attention span, and gives the puppy multiple training reinforcements throughout the day, but also gets *you* into the habit of reward training -- looking for the positive behaviors to reward and build on, carrying kibble on you, etc.

I highly encourage you to try and go this route if you can at all manage it -- most labs (at least all the labs I've seen in our Guide Dog puppy raising group) are *highly* food motivated, so it makes training SO much easier! They are motivated to work!

Go have FUN! Puppies are hilarious and sweet and have great personalities. You're going to love your new furry family member! Warmest regards, Lori D.

[Selkie]

30 minutes ago, Pawz4me said:

Two puppies are a handful for anyone. No good breeder that I know would ever agree to sell two puppies to the same home at once. No good trainer would ever advise it. It's really difficult to raise one puppy "right" and almost impossible to do so with two at the same time.

@sheryl

Well, I will have to disagree that two are a handful for anyone, because they weren’t for me. My two beautifully trained two-year-old labs are proof of that, as well as my nine other dogs. Quite a few people I know have gotten two at once and it has always gone well, even with heelers or Aussies or other more challenging breeds.

However, as I acknowledged in my previous post, I realize that not everyone has the ability or experience to handle two at once.

Ours came from a breeder who knows that I have been caring for many rescue dogs and horses for decades now. She didn’t have any qualms about my ability to properly raise and train two smart and eager-to-please labs.

[Lori D.]

4 hours ago, sheryl said:

1 - I need to confess that I guess I/we (along with dh) did not know how to "properly" care for a puppy and the transition to adulthood.  This thread has humbled me.  I appreciate each and every response!   I've learned so much and am glad I posted this as it will give me time to take my current "limited" knowledge and combine with these tips/suggestions that y'all offered!

Sheryl, please don't beat yourself up about your first puppy!

Everything I shared in my post up-thread has been learned in just the last 2 years, from my involvement with the Guide Dogs puppy raising group. So.much.information. to absorb and put into practice! And, it's all different from the training and dog advice from when we got our first dog as a puppy -- we answered an ad in the newspaper, and it was not a breeder (we were at least knowledgeable enough to be wary of puppy mills and puppies in shops) -- just a person with a full-German Shepherd mom who jumped the fence and came home pregnant. Probably a lab or lab mix, from the look of the puppies.

That first puppy was 35 years ago, long before the internet, and the typical dog training classes of the day all recommended metal choke collars and were not about reward training. There was not the slightest suggestion about crates and crate training, relieving commands, etc. Our first dog survived (LOL) and so did we, and he was a fine dog that was reliable about relieving outside, did not bolt, went hiking and backpacking off leash with DH and I, and was a wonderful family member. We got him at 7 weeks old, and he lived to be 14.5 years old.

Our second dog (my board avatar) was a Humane Society (HS) adoption; he was about a year old and found wandering on the streets and was brought in to H.S.. Super sweet flatcoat retriever, who was so gentle-spirited that we never did training classes with him, as he just wanted to stick right with us. Again, did not know about crates and positive/reward training, but he turned out to be another absolutely wonderful, well-mannered family member. We had him over 12 years, so he was over 13yo when we lost him to cancer.

Our current dog was part of the Guide Dog program, but lacks the confidence to be a leader in the way guide dogs need to be, and since her raisers already had dogs and weren't able to adopt her and still raise more Guide Dog puppies, as group members, she was offered to us, and we have reaped the fruits of some awesome training. Of course, we're now getting to "give back" and practice all this new information we've gained every time we puppy sit one of the puppies in the group. 😉

I would absolutely do things differently if we were starting now with that same wonderful first puppy, but it all turned out fine, and now we know more, and are doing a better, more informed job, with our current pet dog. It's all good. (:D

Edited August 21, 2019 by Lori D.

[ktgrok]

5 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Well, I will have to disagree that two are a handful for anyone, because they weren’t for me. My two beautifully trained two-year-old labs are proof of that, as well as my nine other dogs. Quite a few people I know have gotten two at once and it has always gone well, even with heelers or Aussies or other more challenging breeds.

However, as I acknowledged in my previous post, I realize that not everyone has the ability or experience to handle two at once.

Ours came from a breeder who knows that I have been caring for many rescue dogs and horses for decades now. She didn’t have any qualms about my ability to properly raise and train two smart and eager-to-please labs.

Did you have other dogs at home already, who were well trained? That can help a lot, as the puppies sort of follow in the big dogs' footsteps. Two puppies and no older dogs is more Lord of the Flies most of the time. 

[Selkie]

15 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Did you have other dogs at home already, who were well trained? That can help a lot, as the puppies sort of follow in the big dogs' footsteps. Two puppies and no older dogs is more Lord of the Flies most of the time. 

Yes, we did, and I agree that it definitely helps. Puppies seem to catch on much more quickly when they have adult dogs to show them what's what.🙂

[Spy Car]

22 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Sheryl, please don't beat yourself up about your first puppy!

Everything I shared in my post up-thread has been learned in just the last 2 years, from my involvement with the Guide Dogs puppy raising group. So.much.information. to absorb and put into practice! And, it's all different from the training and dog advice from when we got our first dog as a puppy -- we answered an ad in the newspaper, and it was not a breeder (we were at least knowledgeable enough to be wary of puppy mills and puppies in shops) -- just a person with a full-German Shepherd mom who jumped the fence and came home pregnant. Probably a lab or lab mix, from the look of the puppies.

That first puppy was 35 years ago, long before the internet, and the typical dog training classes of the day all recommended metal choke collars and were not about reward training. There was not the slightest suggestion about crates and crate training, relieving commands, etc. Our first dog survived (LOL) and so did we, and he was a fine dog that was reliable about relieving outside, did not bolt, went hiking and backpacking off leash with DH and I, and was a wonderful family member.

I would absolutely do things differently if we were starting now with that same wonderful first dog, but it all turned out fine, and now we know more, and are doing a better, more informed job, with our current pet dog. It's all good. (:D

I remember the dark days of dog training all too well. In 1970 we got our first dog, and exuberant Irish Setter who I picked out (from a good breeder). I was the person who found a training class and worked with the dog. Even at 12 I understood that the trainers had some good ideas, but were completely missing the boat in other ways. The superiority of positive training, for example, was insufficiently understood. I took what was good and trusted my own instincts about how to shape  dog's behavior using praise and positive methods. Fortunately, times have changed (for the most part).

You gave a great example above about asking a pup to "wait" before leaving its crate. If new owners can pre-think what they want in adult dogs (when they are still pups) they shape that behavior from the start. That way the dog will grow up trained. Likewise waiting at doors and not bolting. I have the dog wait at every meal. Sometimes that's a second or two (as reinforcement) sometimes it is longer.

If a novice dog owner thinks a little bit about what behaviors would make an ideal dog (and which would make for the opposite) it is easy to shape those things with the puppies. All it takes is a little visualizing of the future.

The truth is dogs are stupendously easy to train. They aim to please, especially when dog and owner have a deep bond. One need not be an "expert," rather one just needs to be consistent, kind, consistent, and consistent.

Things as simple as "wait" commands and command words that pups associate with relieving themselves combined with treats and praise work wonders.

Dog training is easy and fun if one understands one's goals and how puppies think. Start this informal training on day one. Realize that every thing in that pup's life is training whither one realizes it, or not.

Bill

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Spy Car

[ktgrok]

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

 

The truth is dogs are stupendously easy to train. They aim to please, especially when dog and owner have a deep bond. One need not be an "expert," rather one just needs to be consistent, kind, consistent, and consistent.

 

 

To be fair, this is HIGHLY variant the breed and the individual dog. A sporting dog is much easier to train than say, a hound. Hounds are bred to do their own thing and hang out with other dogs, not follow human commands. It is in their DNA that humans follow them, not the other way around. 

i thought I was a great dog trainer before I got my coonhound mix. At that point I questioned everything I'd ever known, and then some. Apparently, this is common with owners of coonhounds, lol. (to be fair, we adopted him thinking he was a GSP, a sporting dog, which I was familiar with). Now, some hounds are actual chow hounds...those are a bit easier. The other variety are the type to turn their nose up to filet mignon out of principal and subsist off of air more than anything. 

They still are absolutely trainable - Tracker is praised by anyone who meets him for his manners, and now at nearly 3 yrs old he's excellent most of the time. But it was most decidedly not easy. Not even close. I think I actually have a bit of PTSD from his puppyhood and my marriage barely withstood it. Others felt the same, which was why we were his 7th home (counting breeder) at only 12 weeks of age. We only stuck to it because if I couldn't manage, who would? 

But easy? Not a bit. Give me a good old pit bull ANY day. We will likely never again own a hound, although I love him dearly.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

To be fair, this is HIGHLY variant the breed and the individual dog. A sporting dog is much easier to train than say, a hound. Hounds are bred to do their own thing and hang out with other dogs, not follow human commands. It is in their DNA that humans follow them, not the other way around. 

i thought I was a great dog trainer before I got my coonhound mix. At that point I questioned everything I'd ever known, and then some. Apparently, this is common with owners of coonhounds, lol. (to be fair, we adopted him thinking he was a GSP, a sporting dog, which I was familiar with). Now, some hounds are actual chow hounds...those are a bit easier. The other variety are the type to turn their nose up to filet mignon out of principal and subsist off of air more than anything. 

They still are absolutely trainable - Tracker is praised by anyone who meets him for his manners, and now at nearly 3 yrs old he's excellent most of the time. But it was most decidedly not easy. Not even close. I think I actually have a bit of PTSD from his puppyhood and my marriage barely withstood it. Others felt the same, which was why we were his 7th home (counting breeder) at only 12 weeks of age. We only stuck to it because if I couldn't manage, who would? 

But easy? Not a bit. Give me a good old pit bull ANY day. We will likely never again own a hound, although I love him dearly.

I'd grant that hounds, and specially sighthounds (Afghans, Borzois, Wolfhounds, etc), have reputations for being the hardest dogs to train with sporting dogs among the easiest. Sheryl is getting a Lab (a sporting dog). Should be easy as cake.

It also can a big difference if one adopts a dog in infancy (and starts informal training early) or if one adopts pup that others have either not trained or abused. Nothing is harder than undoing bad behaviors. Kudos for taking on a challenge.

Bill

 

 

[ktgrok]

20 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I'd grant that hounds, and specially sighthounds (Afghans, Borzois, Wolfhounds, etc), have reputations for being the hardest dogs to train with sporting dogs among the easiest. Sheryl is getting a Lab (a sporting dog). Should be easy as cake.

It also can a big difference if one adopts a dog in infancy (and starts informal training early) or if one adopts pup that others have either not trained or abused. Nothing is harder than undoing bad behaviors. Kudos for taking on a challenge.

Bill

 

 

Very true. I'd naively thought a 12 week old dog wouldn't have TOO many bad habits. Instead, he had the short attention span of a puppy and bag habits from multiple homes, all in one. Our newest dog was 18 months when we got her and had a few things to work on, but at least was past the puppy crazy period. Even still, we've had to remind ourselves that training her is different than with a puppy who never got the chance to do "wrong". Most notably, she came to us NOT knowing to come when called, and instead had learned that running off and having humans chase you is the most fun EVER. Ugh. With a 9 week old puppy we just never ever let them experience a human chasing them, instead always having them chase US and we only call them to come when we know they will, or we can reinforce it. So recalls are fast and easy, no stress, with it naturally happening over a course of a few months. Now we have to recreate that with a grown dog who likes to bolt out the door. We've made huge strides, but I still don't trust her the way I would a dog I raised from a puppy. 

Oh, and our coonhound mix has about 12 percent "unknown hound" DNA and we wonder if it is sighthound as his favorite thing on earth is lure coursing. and he's built like a sighthound. 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Ktgrok

[Spy Car]

35 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

Very true. I'd naively thought a 12 week old dog wouldn't have TOO many bad habits. Instead, he had the short attention span of a puppy and bag habits from multiple homes, all in one. Our newest dog was 18 months when we got her and had a few things to work on, but at least was past the puppy crazy period. Even still, we've had to remind ourselves that training her is different than with a puppy who never got the chance to do "wrong". Most notably, she came to us NOT knowing to come when called, and instead had learned that running off and having humans chase you is the most fun EVER. Ugh. With a 9 week old puppy we just never ever let them experience a human chasing them, instead always having them chase US and we only call them to come when we know they will, or we can reinforce it. So recalls are fast and easy, no stress, with it naturally happening over a course of a few months. Now we have to recreate that with a grown dog who likes to bolt out the door. We've made huge strides, but I still don't trust her the way I would a dog I raised from a puppy. 

Oh, and our coonhound mix has about 12 percent "unknown hound" DNA and we wonder if it is sighthound as his favorite thing on earth is lure coursing. and he's built like a sighthound. 

Holding to my general proposition that puppies are generally easy to "train," also means they are easy to "mis-train," meaning that even well-meaning people can inadvertently encourage behaviors in puppies that seem "cute" when the pup is 8 or 9 weeks old, but that are anything but cute when a dog is full grown. And some people are not well-meaning, but abusive.

People who adopt abused dogs take on a huge job. It is orders of magnitude more difficult to train and rehabilitate such dogs. I hope there is a special place in heaven for such souls. Dogs (generally) are resilient and forgiving creatures. The fact that many people enjoy dogs they've rescued from bad circumstances proves the point. But shaping a pup from 8-9 weeks is generally a far easier experience, despite the inherent issues in house training and bite inhibition training one has in an infant pup.

I've long wondered how I'd do trying to train an Afghan Hound? I'm a very confident dog trainer, but that might be a humbling experience.

Bill

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

1 minute ago, Spy Car said:

 

I've long wondered how I'd do trying to train an Afghan Hound? I'm a very confident dog trainer, but that might be a humbling experience.

Bill

It's definitely eye opening when you realize the dog just does Not have the same drive to please as you expect. I'll never forget how confused I was when I'd catch Tracker with something he shouldn't have, like say a piece of pizza stolen from a child's plate,  and instead of looking at least a big concerned/guilty/worried/etc like most dogs, he'd look at you cluelessly as if to say "What? Do you want some too?"

I think a lot of it is some breeds are bred to watch humans for clues to their demeanor, to read people, and other breeds, like hounds, are decidedly not. So me being annoyed/upset would trigger a lab to at least have the good grace to look ashamed, and potentially convince her not to do it again. Whereas a hound didn't even notice I was upset, nor particularly care. Boundaries have to be 100 percent clear for him, lots more structure, clear commands, etc. Wheras my sporting breeds could  practically "understand English" because they paid attention and learned to read human body language, tone, etc. The hound....not so much. 

He has excellent dog social skills though, which makes sense as coonhounds are often hunted in packs, usually with dogs they have never met before. 

[sheryl]

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

Using a crate will greatly aid in house training (in addition to the other advantages). As I mentioned earlier, dogs/pups naturally resist soiling their own space. So if one immediately removes a pup from the crate and takes them to a spot where you'd like them to relieve themselves, and combines that with a "command word" and praise, the pup will get the idea really quickly. Positive training works wonders.

Many people will reduce the size of full sized crates in puppyhood by putting in a divider to there is no "pee-zone" area. Pups/Dogs do tend to love their crates, it mimics a den. If it is a wire crate you can cover it to make it extra secure feeling.

I strongly urge you get "high value" treats. Ideally that is pure meat. Commercially de-hydrated pure meat treats are pricey. For that reason I dehydrate my own and keep a stash in the freezer. Some trainers use the individual string cheese packs marked for kid's snacks. I like meat. I think meat treats are the greatest training aid there is (combined with human praise and attention). The whole idea of threats is to create a strong reward linked to the behavior. 

Start informal "training" on day one. Nothing harsh. Just encourage behaviors you desire and discourage those you would not like in an 70-80 lb dog. If a behavior would not be cute with a full sized beast, do not reward it when they are "cute."

As Pen mentioned, no tennis balls. Chewing them can destroy tooth enamel. Very bad.

If you hate the look of the prong collars, Sprenger (the German company that makes the best ones--including the one pictured above) also makes something called a Neck Tech Martingale collar--that looks almost like a fancy stainless men's wristwatch band (scaled up). It removes the medieval look and the judgemental looks from people who are poorly informed about what is (and is not) humane in dog training. My only concern with the Neck-Teck is that the "teeth" are far shorter than the prong. Good on my shorthaired Vizsla. I'd confirm that these work will with thick furred Labs. Otherwise the two collars seem about equal in utility to me.

https://www.amazon.com/Herm-Sprenger-Neck-tech-Martingale-Collar/dp/B00CS93SXC/ref=asc_df_B00CS93SXC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=248414288605&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw

To judge healthy body weight, get in the habit of palpating the pups ribs so you can feel the amount of fat layer. This gives you a standard. I like dogs to be lean. Labs can get obese very easily and that can cause joint damage. Whatever standard you decide to set, palpating the ribs is the best measure (and especially in dog's like Labs where just looking is not reliable).

Try to search for my screen name and "bite inhibition" training. I've given what I consider the best advice I have for new dog owners on the most important aspect of a puppy's education  a number of times. 

Have fun!

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, thanks for this - it's very detailed and I like that. The breeder "J" did suggest a crate with dividers.  I didn't realize a crate came with dividers.  ???   Do you have a few brands of treats to suggest.  Yes, meat but dogs also like peanut butter and cheese, pumpkin, etc.  Are those bad?   I really need to understand training.  Do you ALWAYS enforce with a treat?  Or, "good girl"/verbal too?  (Potty, come, sit, etc)    No, I don't hate the prong collars now I know how they are used.  I used to hate the idea of crates until yesterday when I learned for the first time mind you that they are not a punishment.  I feel like my head has been in the sand.  What the heck?!?!?!??!   We've had labs for decades but never crate trained.  Now I know crating is a good thing!  🙂   Love the tip on checking body weight via the ribs.  Excellent!  

4 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

I was thinking in terms of toys—not for in a food bowl.

I’ve had one extreme chow hound dog and nothing would stop her in that way.  She would just pick up a ball or slow down object and set it aside.  

 

Got it, thanks for the clarification!

4 hours ago, Spy Car said:

When it comes to a permanent standard collar (not prong, etc) I really like getting them from Gun Dog Supply. The big draw is GDS will attach an engraved brass plate with all the contact info you prove--do not include dog's name--with rivets.

These brass plates will not come off or get tangled up or make noise the way standard dog tags do.

The pricing is very reasonable.

Bill

I'll check it out!  Thanks!

[ktgrok]

In the beginning you will give treats almost always, while saying "yes" or "good". That way the dog learns that those words = good things. Later, as the dog gets better at doing the appropriate thing you can back off the treats and use them more randomly. I like to keep small containers of treats in every room with a puppy, so I can grab one quick if they do something good. That way they don't start thinking that say, "sit" only gets rewarded when mom has the treat pouch on. Or that "sit" only gets rewarded when we are in the kitchen where the cookie jar is. If treats can appear at any time, from anywhere, they are much less likely to get "treat wise" and only do things when you have food in your hand. 

But use them a lot with a baby puppy. Kind of like how I use stickers to potty train my toddlers, but my 20 year old does not still expect a star sticker every time he uses the bathroom 🙂

[sheryl]

On 8/21/2019 at 11:53 AM, Ktgrok said:

You can easily feed food in a muffin tin to slow them down, or they make "snuffle mats" that are fun, but perhaps messy. 

You can also reserve a portion of the puppies food and use it for treats during the day, to keep from accidentally giving too many calories. 

And no, not a breeder, but I worked in veterinary medicine for 20 years, and have done some limited foster/rescue, and dog training, and owned dogs. Also attended a LOT of continuing education hours at the North american Veterinary Conference which is right here in Florida, with leading experts in behavior, nutrition, etc. 

Remember, with house breaking you cannot take them out too much! If you think they might MAYBe possibly need to go out, do it! Wherever they go the most often, even by accident, they will develop a preference for. So make sure that place is your yard, not your floor. 

Puppy should be in the crate or attached to a leash in your hand, or right in front of your eyes for the first few months. If puppy sneaks off and pees on your floor roll up a newspaper and bop YOURSELF on the head for not watching the puppy, lol. 

Oh, and I give the BEST treats right after they potty while still outside. (not when you come back in - then you are rewarding them for coming inside, not for going potty)

KATIE, LOVE the idea of the muffin tin.  And, also like the idea of saving some of their food for treats during the day.  THANKS, GIRL!  I knew you were NOT an inexperienced dog enthusiastic by your content and explanations of such.  Very straight forward and common sense,   Mirrors the breeder!  OK, I will give treat when she stands up from pee!  ???  That immediate???  Blue - got it.  Thanks for that.  Spelled out and direct.  OK, well give me some grace here.  Accidents do happen!  LOL!  This little girl peed on the floor while we were there visiting yesterday.  But, I guess that threw her off.  What kind of mat do you use in your crate?  And, blanket goes on top?  Because the mat then wouldn't really need to be cleaned, would it?  

On 8/21/2019 at 1:23 PM, Pawz4me said:

Two puppies are a handful for anyone. No good breeder that I know would ever agree to sell two puppies to the same home at once. No good trainer would ever advise it. It's really difficult to raise one puppy "right" and almost impossible to do so with two at the same time.

@sheryl -- If you're worried about puppy eating too fast then rather than put anything in the bowl I'd buy a special bowl designed for that purpose. Before such bowls were available the usual trick was to put a good sized rock in the dog's bowl--large/heavy enough that there was no risk of swallowing it by mistake, of course. The dog you know may carefully eat around a ball, but many smarter dogs would simply pick up the ball and drop it on the floor, or flip it out of the bowl with their nose. Not that I'm implying the dog you know isn't smart, just saying that trick wouldn't work for a lot of dogs.

I'll check it out but also like Katie's idea of muffin tin.  Can get one at Dollar Tree for $1   🙂 So funny, it's ok, I know you're not implying anything.  

On 8/21/2019 at 1:48 PM, Lori D. said:

So sorry -- I was unclear. Guide Dogs protocol is baby puppy in a carrier (either back seat of a car, or the back floor of an SUV), and then older puppies (after 4 months) on the floor where backseat passenger feet would go. But, this is also partly due to how the adult/trained Guide Dogs will ride in cars with their unsighted human partner -- right at the feet of the human, still in harness.
Got it.  That makes sense.  But if that baby puppy is going in a carrier on the back SEAT then a sudden stop could render that little fur ball tumbling down.  Do you attach?  I would place on back floor as you also suggested.   Older puppies I would still maybe put in carrier on floor in suv, no? 

Yes, that's a great idea.

If you crate train and have the puppy sleeping in the crate at night, they do not want to soil their "den", so they WILL wake you up to let you know they need to go out. And since you're taking them out, you might as well practice the relieving command *as* they are relieving and then you reward, which all reinforces the relieving command with very little effort on your part. I keep a little cup of kibble in the bedroom, up out of dog reach, but right near the crate, and grab a few pieces as I bend down to open the crate, so I have the reward already to go.

Also, when doing initial crate training, you might also teach the command "wait" so that the dog doesn't launch out of the crate whenever the door opens, lol.
 

Relieving command is a spoken word?  Like potty?  Do you have a link?  And, kibble is just another name for dry dog food?  

You might look for a dog training classes or a dog trainer to work with you for the first weeks, and help you get into the habit. Also, you can wear a "bait bag" or tuck a handful of kibble in a pocket every morning so you always have the reward on you ready to go. (I have a bait bag that has a waist strap and a clip, so easy to wear like a fanny pack, or clip to a pocket or waistband. It also has a pocket for a roll of plastic bags for dog litter clean-up, and a place for your keys and/or small wallet.)

You can take 5-10 minutes several times a day and work on a different command each brief training session time. That keeps it within the puppy's attention span, and gives the puppy multiple training reinforcements throughout the day, but also gets *you* into the habit of reward training -- looking for the positive behaviors to reward and build on, carrying kibble on you, etc.

I highly encourage you to try and go this route if you can at all manage it -- most labs (at least all the labs I've seen in our Guide Dog puppy raising group) are *highly* food motivated, so it makes training SO much easier! They are motivated to work!

Go have FUN! Puppies are hilarious and sweet and have great personalities. You're going to love your new furry family member! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Thanks, Lori!  You've been very helpful as well!  Appreciate it!!!

 

  

Edited August 25, 2019 by sheryl

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Selkie said:

Well, I will have to disagree that two are a handful for anyone, because they weren’t for me. My two beautifully trained two-year-old labs are proof of that, as well as my nine other dogs. Quite a few people I know have gotten two at once and it has always gone well, even with heelers or Aussies or other more challenging breeds.

However, as I acknowledged in my previous post, I realize that not everyone has the ability or experience to handle two at once.

Ours came from a breeder who knows that I have been caring for many rescue dogs and horses for decades now. She didn’t have any qualms about my ability to properly raise and train two smart and eager-to-please labs.

I think that's sweet, Selkie!  I think it takes someone is is knowledgeable and experienced to raise two simultaneously.   But, it would be in the other puppy's best interest not to give us a litter mate in addition to our 1 because we are inexperienced with how to do it the "right" way LOL!  I use the LOL gingerly b/c we've had labs for decades but didn't crate and just didn't do much the right way.  Now, we loved our labs.  They went on "some" not all vacations with us (overnights) and day trips hiking, etc.  But, we were inexperienced.  YOU ALL here have opened my eyes and the breeder yesterday spent 2 + hours with dd and me confirming much of what y'all are saying.  I'm grateful to these replies and the breeder. 

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Bill, thanks for this - it's very detailed and I like that. The breeder "J" did suggest a crate with dividers.  I didn't realize a crate came with dividers.  ???   Do you have a few brands of treats to suggest.  Yes, meat but dogs also like peanut butter and cheese, pumpkin, etc.  Are those bad?   I really need to understand training.  Do you ALWAYS enforce with a treat?  Or, "good girl"/verbal too?  (Potty, come, sit, etc)    No, I don't hate the prong collars now I know how they are used.  I used to hate the idea of crates until yesterday when I learned for the first time mind you that they are not a punishment.  I feel like my head has been in the sand.  What the heck?!?!?!??!   We've had labs for decades but never crate trained.  Now I know crating is a good thing!  🙂   Love the tip on checking body weight via the ribs.  Excellent!  

Got it, thanks for the clarification!

I'll check it out!  Thanks!

When I was younger I did not use treats. It felt like "cheating" to me and felt that I wanted the dog working for "me" and not for food. I've re-thought that position over the years. Both ways work. Praise (with enthusiasm) is essential. Praise plus a high value treat (especially with food oriented dogs) just amps up the efficiency. At 5.5 years the treat training I do now is a small fraction of what it was as 6 months. Praise? Always.

I've received enough brickbats this week that I don't wish to offer extended comments on non-meat treats. Cheese in a pinch. Peanut Butter? Not for me. Some peanut butters can carry a serious toxin for dogs. Kibble as a "treat" is not high value IMO, but some dogs---including my current one--are so food motivated that they'd likely work for them. Real meat commercial treats are $$$. Drying my own meat, liver, etc is worth it to me. Treats should be small.

The rib palpating will serve you well, especially with a Lab. The other standard check is to look at a dog from overhead to see its "tuck" (degree of a "waist"). But "tuck checks are harder with Labs/Goldens, etc. Checking the fat layer will help keep you on track. Please avoid the trap--that someone may try to suck you into at some life stage--to feed GREATER amounts of low-quality/low-calorie food as a way to fill up a hungry dog.

A higher carb diet is a path to obesity, which is the #1 issue for Labs. Senior dogs need more protein than Middle Aged dogs and "Senior" formulas generally do the opposite. Not good. Go as high-protein/high-fat as you can within the limits of practicality and budget. And feed less of this high-density food. It is a kindness to dog to process less food, you will deal with far less poop, and fat provides the best energy source for dogs.

Crates are good. My guy will paw his open to take a nap (if being at my feet isn't an option).

Hand feeding is also a great bonding experience (assuming it doesn't gross you out). Let the pup "work' for some of its ration.

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ktgrok]

An easy high value meat treat is to bake or cook in the instant pot/crock pot some chicken breast and dice it up and put it in small baggies. you can freeze most of them and put the other in the fridge, moving frozen ones to the fridge to thaw as needed. 

[Spy Car]

For mats. My wife started using the new fangled bath mats that look kind of wooly (microfiber?) as a top layer in crate when our dog was a pup. 

She finds them easy to clean (machine wash) and they seem cozy. Now the dog gets the hand me downs.

Bill

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Lori D. said:

Sheryl, please don't beat yourself up about your first puppy!   Thanks, Lori.  I do need to get over it.  As I told Selkie, our labs were loved, fed and cared for but lacked in obedience training and reinforcements.   They are in doggie Heaven now.   

Everything I shared in my post up-thread has been learned in just the last 2 years, from my involvement with the Guide Dogs puppy raising group. So.much.information. to absorb and put into practice! And, it's all different from the training and dog advice from when we got our first dog as a puppy -- we answered an ad in the newspaper, and it was not a breeder (we were at least knowledgeable enough to be wary of puppy mills and puppies in shops) -- just a person with a full-German Shepherd mom who jumped the fence and came home pregnant. Probably a lab or lab mix, from the look of the puppies.

That first puppy was 35 years ago, long before the internet, and the typical dog training classes of the day all recommended metal choke collars and were not about reward training. There was not the slightest suggestion about crates and crate training, relieving commands, etc. Our first dog survived (LOL) and so did we, and he was a fine dog that was reliable about relieving outside, did not bolt, went hiking and backpacking off leash with DH and I, and was a wonderful family member. We got him at 7 weeks old, and he lived to be 14.5 years old.

I appreciate you sharing the above, Lori!  It does put my mind at ease.  We brought our first lab home at about 8 weeks 3/23/91.  She was born 1/30/91.  Before internet, yes!  Smiling here.  We also found this our purebred lab from a newspaper ad! 🙂

Our second dog (my board avatar) was a Humane Society (HS) adoption; he was about a year old and found wandering on the streets and was brought in to H.S.. Super sweet flatcoat retriever, who was so gentle-spirited that we never did training classes with him, as he just wanted to stick right with us. Again, did not know about crates and positive/reward training, but he turned out to be another absolutely wonderful, well-mannered family member. We had him over 12 years, so he was over 13yo when we lost him to cancer.

Our current dog was part of the Guide Dog program, but lacks the confidence to be a leader in the way guide dogs need to be, and since her raisers already had dogs and weren't able to adopt her and still raise more Guide Dog puppies, as group members, she was offered to us, and we have reaped the fruits of some awesome training. Of course, we're now getting to "give back" and practice all this new information we've gained every time we puppy sit one of the puppies in the group.

I would absolutely do things differently if we were starting now with that same wonderful first puppy, but it all turned out fine, and now we know more, and are doing a better, more informed job, with our current pet dog. It's all good. (:D

 

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

An easy high value meat treat is to bake or cook in the instant pot/crock pot some chicken breast and dice it up and put it in small baggies. you can freeze most of them and put the other in the fridge, moving frozen ones to the fridge to thaw as needed. 

+1.

Bill

[Pen]

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Bill, thanks for this - it's very detailed and I like that. The breeder "J" did suggest a crate with dividers.  I didn't realize a crate came with dividers.  ??? 

Some do, some don’t.    Some that do are called life stages.... I like 2 door crates.  We have more than one crate and sometimes it can be less expensive to buy 2 sizes rather than onevwith divider.   Less elegantly you can sometimes use a box or similar to decrease inner size.

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 Do you have a few brands of treats to suggest.  Yes, meat but dogs also like peanut butter and cheese, pumpkin, etc.  Are those bad?   

 

Treat / rewards needs to be what the particular dog likes (loves!)   I don’t think any dog I’ve had liked pumpkin enough for it to be a reward— though most did like it pretty well as part of a meal.  

All my dogs have liked meat of some sort (though not all liked all sorts and sometimes there’s acquired taste aspects—such as current dog was highly suspicious of green tripe initially, but now loves it—not suggesting it as treat because it is too messy).  Most have liked cheese.  Only one has liked peanut butter enough for it to be a reward .

one was most strongly ball motivated and barely had any interest in food—he’d ignore high level raw meat in favor of fetching, and was more easily guided into a sit with a ball than with a food lure.    one was most strongly tug motivated with relatively low interest in food, though he liked dried anchovies especially 

Human cooked beef, or chicken cut into little pieces can be a good treat for many.  Ditto cheese.  

For commercial treats, most of my dogs liked these sorts (but one hated liver of any sort) Northwest Naturals Raw Rewards Freeze Dried Treats for Dogs & Cats Mixed 5 Packs, Salmon, Beef Liver, Chicken Liver, Bison Liver and Lamb Lliver https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016VE790M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_KhBxDbBYDD287

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 

I really need to understand training.  Do you ALWAYS enforce with a treat?  Or, "good girl"/verbal too?  (Potty, come, sit, etc)   

 

What Katie said. 

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

No, I don't hate the prong collars now I know how they are used. 

But not for puppy baby dog...

12 minutes ago, sheryl said:

I used to hate the idea of crates until yesterday when I learned for the first time mind you that they are not a punishment.  I feel like my head has been in the sand.  What the heck?!?!?!??!   We've had labs for decades but never crate trained. 

 

It’s a great tool,

but remember that people and dogs co-lived for ages before there were such things as crates. 

 

 

[Selkie]

Sheryl, when are you getting the puppy? And when do we get to see pictures???

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I remember the dark days of dog training all too well.    I'm currently laughing with this!      In 1970 we got our first dog, and exuberant Irish Setter who I picked out (from a good breeder). I was the person who found a training class and worked with the dog. Even at 12 I understood that the trainers had some good ideas, but were completely missing the boat in other ways. The superiority of positive training, for example, was insufficiently understood. I took what was good and trusted my own instincts about how to shape  dog's behavior using praise and positive methods. Fortunately, times have changed (for the most part).

You gave a great example above about asking a pup to "wait" before leaving its crate. If new owners can pre-think what they want in adult dogs (when they are still pups) they shape that behavior from the start. That way the dog will grow up trained. Likewise waiting at doors and not bolting. I have the dog wait at every meal. Sometimes that's a second or two (as reinforcement) sometimes it is longer.   Yes, I was actually doing the "wait" command for food with our 2nd lab.  I, unfortunately, can not take credit for the wait before leaving crate that was another poster (name?).  Katie mentioned giving treat immediately upon going potty. 

If a novice dog owner thinks a little bit about what behaviors would make an ideal dog (and which would make for the opposite) it is easy to shape those things with the puppies. All it takes is a little visualizing of the future.

The truth is dogs are stupendously easy to train. They aim to please, especially when dog and owner have a deep bond. One need not be an "expert," rather one just needs to be consistent, kind, consistent, and consistent.    Yes, we were not with our first 2 I'm afraid to say.  

Things as simple as "wait" commands and command words that pups associate with relieving themselves combined with treats and praise work wonders.

Dog training is easy and fun if one understands one's goals and how puppies think. Start this informal training on day one. Realize that every thing in that pup's life is training whither one realizes it, or not.

Bill

  And, Bill, you gave away your age LOL!  I thought you were in your 40's.  🙂   Unless I misunderstood. 

 

Edited August 21, 2019 by sheryl

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, sheryl said:

You are really old! 

Guilty as charged.

Bill

[sheryl]

53 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

In the beginning you will give treats almost always, while saying "yes" or "good". That way the dog learns that those words = good things. Later, as the dog gets better at doing the appropriate thing you can back off the treats and use them more randomly. I like to keep small containers of treats in every room with a puppy, so I can grab one quick if they do something good. That way they don't start thinking that say, "sit" only gets rewarded when mom has the treat pouch on. Or that "sit" only gets rewarded when we are in the kitchen where the cookie jar is. If treats can appear at any time, from anywhere, they are much less likely to get "treat wise" and only do things when you have food in your hand. 

But use them a lot with a baby puppy. Kind of like how I use stickers to potty train my toddlers, but my 20 year old does not still expect a star sticker every time he uses the bathroom 🙂

Oh my gosh, I'm laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   I'm still laughing! 😂

Backing off on treats - thanks for that! 

[sheryl]

2 hours ago, Spy Car said:

I'd grant that hounds, and specially sighthounds (Afghans, Borzois, Wolfhounds, etc), have reputations for being the hardest dogs to train with sporting dogs among the easiest. Sheryl is getting a Lab (a sporting dog). Should be easy as cake.

It also can a big difference if one adopts a dog in infancy (and starts informal training early) or if one adopts pup that others have either not trained or abused. Nothing is harder than undoing bad behaviors. Kudos for taking on a challenge.      Unfortunately, yes to undoing bad training. 

Bill

 

 

 

[Spy Car]

To ditto Pen, no prong collar (or similar) with young pups.

To teach heel to a pup, you can keep a treat almost on the nose, then pop it when they are spot-on in position (and not leaping for it) giving command word and praise all in one moment.

I (personally) find having a variety of "command words" for heel helpful that have shaded meanings in terms of the degree of perfection expected. I start with the middle ground expectation, reserving another term for more formal training, I also add a more relaxed heel (that I call "with-me") as a later stage development. Not everyone finds this necessary. I like to train for competition-level obedience, but do not trial.

Bill

[Lori D.]

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

... But if that baby puppy is going in a carrier on the back SEAT then a sudden stop could render that little fur ball tumbling down.  Do you attach?  I would place on back floor as you also suggested.   Older puppies I would still maybe put in carrier on floor in suv, no? 

Hmmm, well we have a small car, so the carrier just barely fits, so, yes, puppy might tumble a bit within the carrier, but the carrier is pretty well wedged in there so not going anywhere. Also, I just drive extra extra carefully whenever I have a dog in the car, and we don't take the baby puppies out very much at all -- just the vet and to the weekly meeting -- as until they've had all their shots (17 weeks), they are not allowed to walk anywhere (other than your house and those pre-approved spots) to prevent picking up an illness. You actually have to carry them from car to building.

1 hour ago, sheryl said:

... Relieving command is a spoken word?  Like potty?  Do you have a link?  And, kibble is just another name for dry dog food?  

Kibble = yes, a piece of dry dog food.

Use whatever word you wish. The Guide Dog for the Blind organization has us all use the same commands and same training techniques so training remains consistent. For GDB, the command is "Do your business" -- both for peeing and pooping.

So, to start with a small puppy, you carry them outside to the relieving spot (helps keep them from relieving on the way to the spot, which they often do if they walk), set them down in the spot, and wait for them to relieve. As soon as they start to relieve we say "do your business!", and then immediately say the marker word "Nice!" (we don't use clickers -- we "mark" the good behavior with the word "Nice!"), and then reward. "Nice!" ALWAYS = treat. So even if the puppy does something good and you say "Nice!" and they immediately do an undesirable behavior, you still treat for the original "Nice!"

As the puppy makes the association with the command, you start giving it just as the puppy starts to squat, and then "Nice!" and reward once the puppy relieves. And then you get to the point of taking the puppy to the place you want the puppy to relieve, give the command, and just wait, and once the puppy relieves, "Nice!" and reward. Having a command is great because it helps your dog know where it is appropriate to relieve when not at home.

And as someone mentioned upthread, all the Guide Dog puppies work for some of their daily food. Baby puppies usually get something like 3 cups of kibble a day, with 1 cup at each of three meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner). We usually take 1/2 cup of the lunch and put it in the bait bag and use that to work with/reward the puppy in the morning, and whatever is left gets added back in with the rest of the lunch. Similar with dinner. That way you don't overfeed your dog, but are also making sure they get enough food, and they are eager to work without the need of high-value treats for all the training that goes on every day for GD puppies.

As Spy Car says above, we do ALSO use a lot of praise, and reward with physical touch (petting under chin/on chest) while working with them -- we just always reward with a piece of kibble when saying the behavior marker word "Nice!" . We also do a lot of encouraging with praise in the midst of working -- like, if the puppy is walking well with a loose leash "Good girl!"

Edited August 21, 2019 by Lori D.

[sheryl]

On 8/21/2019 at 5:00 PM, Spy Car said:

When I was younger I did not use treats. It felt like "cheating" to me and felt that I wanted the dog working for "me" and not for food. I've re-thought that position over the years. Both ways work. Praise (with enthusiasm) is essential. Praise plus a high value treat (especially with food oriented dogs) just amps up the efficiency. At 5.5 years the treat training I do now is a small fraction of what it was as 6 months. Praise? Always.

I've received enough brickbats this week that I don't wish to offer extended comments on non-meat treats. Cheese in a pinch. Peanut Butter? Not for me. Some peanut butters can carry a serious toxin for dogs. Kibble as a "treat" is not high value IMO, but some dogs---including my current one--are so food motivated that they'd likely work for them. Real meat commercial treats are $$$. Drying my own meat, liver, etc is worth it to me. Treats should be small.

The rib palpating will serve you well, especially with a Lab. The other standard check is to look at a dog from overhead to see its "tuck" (degree of a "waist"). But "tuck checks are harder with Labs/Goldens, etc. Checking the fat layer will help keep you on track. Please avoid the trap--that someone may try to suck you into at some life stage--to feed GREATER amounts of low-quality/low-calorie food as a way to fill up a hungry dog.

A higher carb diet is a path to obesity, which is the #1 issue for Labs. Senior dogs need more protein than Middle Aged dogs and "Senior" formulas generally do the opposite. Not good. Go as high-protein/high-fat as you can within the limits of practicality and budget. And feed less of this high-density food. It is a kindness to dog to process less food, you will deal with far less poop, and fat provides the best energy source for dogs.

Crates are good. My guy will paw his open to take a nap (if being at my feet isn't an option).

Hand feeding is also a great bonding experience (assuming it doesn't gross you out). Let the pup "work' for some of its ration.   Yes, we did this with our labs and our Ragdoll cat to bond but also to reach trust, especially the cat.  She was so good at eating from our hands!  

Bill

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bill, STOP!  I'm laughing at your reference to age.  I don't think you're old! 🙂

Edited August 25, 2019 by sheryl

[sheryl]

50 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

An easy high value meat treat is to bake or cook in the instant pot/crock pot some chicken breast and dice it up and put it in small baggies. you can freeze most of them and put the other in the fridge, moving frozen ones to the fridge to thaw as needed. 

Yes, we know someone who does this.   Will do this.  Is this used as a reward or treat? 

46 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

For mats. My wife started using the new fangled bath mats that look kind of wooly (microfiber?) as a top layer in crate when our dog was a pup. 

She finds them easy to clean (machine wash) and they seem cozy. Now the dog gets the hand me downs.

Bill

OK, will check those out.  Thanks, Bill!

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Bill, STOP!  I'm laughing at your reference to age.  I don't think your old! 🙂

I've earned every gray hair on my head.

Beats the alternative.

Bill

[Tanaqui]

It's never a bad idea to issue treats only as rewards, even if all the dog does for his non-training treat is sit on cue.

As far as training goes, one of our dogs is evidently deaf, so we've been slowly training him to hand signals. (It's true what they say upthread - it is REALLY HARD to train two dogs at once.) Some googling suggests that even for non-deaf dogs, it's easier to train hand signals, either with or without using verbal cues as well. You're giving them twice the chance to get it right if you do both at once.

Edited August 21, 2019 by Tanaqui

[Spy Car]

1 minute ago, sheryl said:

Yes, we know someone who does this.   Will do this.  Is this used as a reward or treat? 

OK, will check those out.  Thanks, Bill!

Treats should only be for "rewards," not as snacks.

Bill

 

[sheryl]

47 minutes ago, Pen said:

Some do, some don’t.    Some that do are called life stages.... I like 2 door crates.  We have more than one crate and sometimes it can be less expensive to buy 2 sizes rather than onevwith divider.   Less elegantly you can sometimes use a box or similar to decrease inner size.

 

Treat / rewards needs to be what the particular dog likes (loves!)   I don’t think any dog I’ve had liked pumpkin enough for it to be a reward— though most did like it pretty well as part of a meal.  

All my dogs have liked meat of some sort (though not all liked all sorts and sometimes there’s acquired taste aspects—such as current dog was highly suspicious of green tripe initially, but now loves it—not suggesting it as treat because it is too messy).  Most have liked cheese.  Only one has liked peanut butter enough for it to be a reward .

one was most strongly ball motivated and barely had any interest in food—he’d ignore high level raw meat in favor of fetching, and was more easily guided into a sit with a ball than with a food lure.    one was most strongly tug motivated with relatively low interest in food, though he liked dried anchovies especially 

Human cooked beef, or chicken cut into little pieces can be a good treat for many.  Ditto cheese.    Thanks for that! And, for the link below! 

For commercial treats, most of my dogs liked these sorts (but one hated liver of any sort) Northwest Naturals Raw Rewards Freeze Dried Treats for Dogs & Cats Mixed 5 Packs, Salmon, Beef Liver, Chicken Liver, Bison Liver and Lamb Lliver https://www.amazon.com/dp/B016VE790M/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_KhBxDbBYDD287

 

 

 

 

What Katie said. 

But not for puppy baby dog...

 

It’s a great tool,

but remember that people and dogs co-lived for ages before there were such things as crates. 

 

 

 

31 minutes ago, Selkie said:

Sheryl, when are you getting the puppy? And when do we get to see pictures???

Aww, I'm ready to get the dog now but it happened all so quickly.  I need to transfer some money and buy a few essentials like that crate, food, toys, etc.  

21 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Guilty as charged.

Bill

Nice trick, Bill!  🙂 

11 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

To ditto Pen, no prong collar (or similar) with young pups.

To teach heel to a pup, you can keep a treat almost on the nose, then pop it when they are spot-on in position (and not leaping for it) giving command word and praise all in one moment.

I (personally) find having a variety of "command words" for heel helpful that have shaded meanings in terms of the degree of perfection expected. I start with the middle ground expectation, reserving another term for more formal training, I also add a more relaxed heel (that I call "with-me") as a later stage development. Not everyone finds this necessary. I like to train for competition-level obedience, but do not trial.

Bill

So, prong is good from what to what age?

[sheryl]

13 minutes ago, Lori D. said:

Hmmm, well we have a small car, so the carrier just barely fits, so, yes, puppy might tumble a bit within the carrier, but the carrier is pretty well wedged in there so not going anywhere. Also, I just drive extra extra carefully whenever I have a dog in the car, and we don't take the baby puppies out very much at all -- just the vet and to the weekly meeting -- as until they've had all their shots (17 weeks), they are not allowed to walk anywhere (other than your house and those pre-approved spots) to prevent picking up an illness. You actually have to carry them from car to building.

Got it. A small car makes sense then.  I thought you meant suv seat. 

Kibble = yes, a piece of dry dog food.   Thanks!

Use whatever word you wish. The Guide Dog for the Blind organization has us all use the same commands and same training techniques so training remains consistent. For GDB, the command is "Do your business" -- both for peeing and pooping.   OK.  I need to study up more. 

So, to start with a small puppy, you carry them outside to the relieving spot (helps keep them from relieving on the way to the spot, which they often do if they walk), set them down in the spot, and wait for them to relieve. As soon as they start to relieve we say "do your business!", and then immediately say the marker word "Nice!" (we don't use clickers -- we "mark" the good behavior with the word "Nice!"), and then reward. "Nice!" ALWAYS = treat. So even if the puppy does something good and you say "Nice!" and they immediately do an undesirable behavior, you still treat for the original "Nice!" [And smack your forehead for not anticipating the other behavior and working to keep the dogs in a situation where they can continue to    Got it. GREAT!  Can you interchange "good" and "nice" for the same command like potty?

 I can't believe I accidentally deleted this!  Really.  Can you resend?

And as someone mentioned upthread, all the Guide Dog puppies work for some of their daily food. Baby puppies usually get something like 3 cups of kibble a day, with 1 cup at each of three meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner). We usually take 1/2 cup of the lunch and put it in the bait bag and use that to work with/reward the puppy in the morning, and whatever is left gets added back in with the rest of the lunch. Similar with dinner. That way you don't overfeed your dog, but are also making sure they get enough food, and they are eager to work without the need of high-value treats for all the training that goes on every day for GD puppies.

As Spy Car says above, we do ALSO use a lot of praise, and reward with physical touch (petting under chin/on chest) while working with them -- we just always reward with a piece of kibble when saying the behavior marker word "Nice!" . We also do a lot of encouraging with praise in the midst of working -- like, if the puppy is walking well with a loose leash "Good girl!"

 

[sheryl]

14 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I've earned every gray hair on my head.

Beats the alternative.

Bill

😂  You and me both - gray is nice!  

14 minutes ago, Tanaqui said:

It's never a bad idea to issue treats only as rewards, even if all the dog does for his non-training treat is sit on cue.

As far as training goes, one of our dogs is evidently deaf, so we've been slowly training him to hand signals. (It's true what they say upthread - it is REALLY HARD to train two dogs at once.) Some googling suggests that even for non-deaf dogs, it's easier to train hand signals, either with or without using verbal cues as well. You're giving them twice the chance to get it right if you do both at once.

Yes, I actually do use some hand signals with verbal ones.  I forgot about that.  Is combining ok?

12 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Treats should only be for "rewards," not as snacks.

Bill

 

Got it! 

[Tanaqui]

Quote

 

Yes, I actually do use some hand signals with verbal ones.  I forgot about that.  Is combining ok?

 

 

That is what I do with the non-deaf dog and it does not seem to harm her. I figure it's a double cue, just like when I used some simple ASL signs when the kids were babies.

[Spy Car]

7 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 

Aww, I'm ready to get the dog now but it happened all so quickly.  I need to transfer some money and buy a few essentials like that crate, food, toys, etc.  

Nice trick, Bill!  🙂 

So, prong is good from what to what age?

Depends on a number of factors, including how careful you are and how mentally and physically developed the dog is. A typical Lab might be ready at 5 months, could be later. Rarely earlier, but maybe.

When you start (and even after) you don't want to do a "correction" so much as letting the dog walk into it. Aim for gentle "natural consequences" not the "yanked" style of corrections that were used with choke chains in the bad old days. KWIM?

Dogs get the message really quickly. If you've been training all along, the prong will be most useful for high distractibility moments (like other dogs being around) when informal training can break down. Use your judgement here.

Bill

 

[Pen]

29 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

To ditto Pen, no prong collar (or similar) with young pups.

To teach heel to a pup, you can keep a treat almost on the nose, then pop it when they are spot-on in position (and not leaping for it) giving command word and praise all in one moment.

I (personally) find having a variety of "command words" for heel helpful that have shaded meanings in terms of the degree of perfection expected. I start with the middle ground expectation, reserving another term for more formal training, I also add a more relaxed heel (that I call "with-me") as a later stage development. Not everyone finds this necessary. I like to train for competition-level obedience, but do not trial.

Bill

 

We also have “with me” as a relaxed walking together and use “foos” as formal heel, while “walk” (as in “wanna go on a walk!?”  Or “walk!? Field?! Adventure?!) means run about exuberantly, possibly with ‘ zoomies’ keeping more or less in human’s  vicinity. 

Speaking of which it has stopped raining so we should go do a “walk?! Field?!” and get furry person pooped out. 

[Spy Car]

6 minutes ago, sheryl said:

😂  You and me both - gray is nice!  

Yes, I actually do use some hand signals with verbal ones.  I forgot about that.  Is combining ok?

Got it! 

I do hand signal training for almost every command. Good idea to combine. I also do whistle training for recall and whoa! (stop) commands.

I like gray. It is ironic that my wife (at 52) still has natural brown hair, when I'm totally cool with gray.

What I'm not cool with is that she tossed my Matrix So Silver Shampoo (my only beauty product, save soap) because she said it smelled "off." I said "that's how it smells." LOL.

Bill

 

[Spy Car]

3 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

We also have “with me” as a relaxed walking together and use “foos” as formal heel, while “walk” (as in “wanna go on a walk!?”  Or “walk!? Field?! Adventure?!) means run about exuberantly, possibly with ‘ zoomies’ keeping more or less in human’s  vicinity. 

Speaking of which it has stopped raining so we should go do a “walk?! Field?!” and get furry person pooped out. 

Massive late-season heat-wave here. Staying indoors. Dog passed out despite AC.

Bill

[ktgrok]

1 hour ago, Pen said:

 

but remember that people and dogs co-lived for ages before there were such things as crates. 

 

 

Truth. Honestly, they are to make MY life more pleasant as much as anything. If I didn't have a passel of children to teach and take care of and a book to write and a husband etc etc. I could follow puppy around and not need a crate....maybe. But Crates keep puppy safe, keep the house safe, and BEST of all keep people from being angry at the puppy for just being a puppy. And they prevent bad habits from starting. Puppy can't steal the toddler's pizza if puppy is in the crate while toddler is eating. Etc etc. 

30 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

To ditto Pen, no prong collar (or similar) with young pups.

To teach heel to a pup, you can keep a treat almost on the nose, then pop it when they are spot-on in position (and not leaping for it) giving command word and praise all in one moment.

I (personally) find having a variety of "command words" for heel helpful that have shaded meanings in terms of the degree of perfection expected. I start with the middle ground expectation, reserving another term for more formal training, I also add a more relaxed heel (that I call "with-me") as a later stage development. Not everyone finds this necessary. I like to train for competition-level obedience, but do not trial.

Bill

I use exactly the same phrase. I tend to say "lets go" when I just need forward movement and don't care where/how it is done....so from the house to the car with my trained dog I don't make him heel. Or if he is off leash at the park, and we need to move somewhere else in the park "let's go". Then there is "heel" which is a structured walk, by my side or a bit behind (I'm not looking for a show quality heel where their neck is all crooked and they can't watch where they are going, just right by my side and keeping an eye on me). Then "with me" means "hey, catch up, go the general direction I'm going" and is used usually off leash as well. With a puppy I'd start with "let's go" and teach them to follow you around and give treats when they are next to you. Start in the living room or hallway, then backyard with REALLY good treats, then front yard with REALLY good treats for just a second or two, etc. then "heel" formally on leash later. 

21 minutes ago, sheryl said:

Yes, we know someone who does this.   Will do this.  Is this used as a reward or treat? 

OK, will check those out.  Thanks, Bill!

All treats are rewards. Dogs in my world say "please" before getting a treat by doing whatever I ask, be that a simple sit, or a down, or coming when called. So if I'm chopping chicken and want to share I will yell out "HERE!" and when they get there they get the chicken, as a reward for coming when called. Or if my husband is sharing mini wheats with the brain damaged old border collie (I know..not species appropriate but he LOVES it and we only buy it a few times a year) my husband will make him sit for it. Think of it as the dog saying "please". Or think of it as keeping the relationship balanced. If you constantly are GIVING the dog love, pets, scratches, toys, food, treats, opening doors for them, etc etc and they never "give" anything to you, that's not a balanced relationship. I'm not a fan of the whole "alpha" thing but I think as women we get the idea that some relationships are unhealthy and have poor boundaries. We've learned to not let humans walk all over us. Well, that applies to dogs too. Always giving and never asking anything in return creates a messed up relationship that can go ugly, depending on the personality of the dog. And certainly doesn't create an atmosphere of respect. aGain, not fear, not "domination" but respect. I respect my dogs, and I want respect from them. Watching that I keep the relationship fairly balanced is a big part of that. Probably the main or only part.  Now, when they get a bit older, and know the way things work, sure of course you can just pet them or whatever. But like with kids at the beginning of the school year, better to be firm and set the tone clearly, and then you can ease up later. My dogs as adults get on my couch, in my bed, etc but we've established a healthy relationship based on give and take by that point. So tons of love and affection are great, but balance it with reasonable expectations or you end up with the doggie equivalent of a middle aged roommate who eats your food, forgets to flush, and pays the rent late. Might be a really nice guy, but no one likes that kind of behavior. 

20 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I've earned every gray hair on my head.

Beats the alternative.

Bill

Amen to that! I've currently got a big bee in my bonnet about agism in general though, lol. 

18 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Treats should only be for "rewards," not as snacks.

Bill

 

See, he said it too, but way more concisely, lol. 

14 minutes ago, sheryl said:

 

Aww, I'm ready to get the dog now but it happened all so quickly.  I need to transfer some money and buy a few essentials like that crate, food, toys, etc.  

Nice trick, Bill!  🙂 

So, prong is good from what to what age?

About 16 weeks or so, depending mightily on the dog, circumstances, handler's skill, etc. By that I mean a skilled handler may never need one, or a dog with a "follower" personality may never need one. A small dog probably won't NEED one but would benefit possibly. A dog that lives on acreage and never goes anywhere doesn't need one. A dog that is big, exuberant, and gets to go out and about may need one earlier than a dog that is more timid or laid back. But as a VERY general rule, 16 weeks. 

4 minutes ago, sheryl said:

😂  You and me both - gray is nice!  

Yes, I actually do use some hand signals with verbal ones.  I forgot about that.  Is combining ok?

Got it! 

YES! Dogs are MUCH more visual, and will follow hand signals MUCH more easily than verbal cues. Which is great, but be aware of it. Because you can accidentally create "hand signals" that you don't realize you are doing, just by always holding your body a certain way. I generally "lure" dogs into position with a treat when first teaching a behavior, then I use that motion to create a hand signal and have the treat in my other hand or pocket or pouch. Once they reliably follow the hand signal I add the verbal cue. But - ALWAYS give the verbal cue a second before the hand signal when teaching the verbal cue, or they will ignore it and just follow the hand signal. They won't even notice the verbal cue otherwise. (maybe if given at the exact same time, but most people actually move their hand first, which makes the verbal part meaningless to the dog - it doesn't convey any new information so they ignore it). 

If you have the time and money, you can find online dog classes at Fenzi.com, or if you are into learning theory and have an extra $80 Kathey Sdao's lecture here is REALLY good on what operant and classical conditioning are. I don't agree with her on everything, mainly because not everyone is a professional with nothing to do but dog train and in real life not all her methods are practical, but the knowledge of the learning theory is GREAT to have. For kids and dogs. Even husbands 🙂  @Spy Car, it's the kind of "get deep into the weeds" kind of thing you might enjoy...I mean that in a good way, as someone who also loves to really dive deep into stuff. 

Free podcast that is really really good is Chad Mackin's "Something to Bark About". He's SO good about breaking complex stuff down, very humble, etc. He's also featured a bit in the documentary that you MUST watch  (you too, @Spy Car, actually you'll like it more than the OP probably, lol. You will really appreciate just how good some people are with dogs....just like it is THRILLING to watch a bird dog in the field, it's thrilling for  me anyway to watch anyone doing what they were born to do, and Dick Russel was born to work with dogs) called The Dog Man. https://www.amazon.com/Dog-Man-Dick-Russell/dp/B01MSALNP0

 

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Massive late-season heat-wave here. Staying indoors. Dog passed out despite AC.

Bill

 

Maybe the rain will head south to you—it was not in predictions and my truck’s windows were open. Since previous days it’s been 90 and like a greenhouse .  I have some drying to do!

[sheryl]

17 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Depends on a number of factors, including how careful you are and how mentally and physically developed the dog is. A typical Lab might be ready at 5 months, could be later. Rarely earlier, but maybe.

When you start (and even after) you don't want to do a "correction" so much as letting the dog walk into it. Aim for gentle "natural consequences" not the "yanked" style of corrections that were used with choke chains in the bad old days. KWIM?

Dogs get the message really quickly. If you've been training all along, the prong will be most useful for high distractibility moments (like other dogs being around) when informal training can break down. Use your judgement here.

Bill

 

Prong collars around 5-6 mo, approx?  Don't get this.  🙂 

13 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

We also have “with me” as a relaxed walking together and use “foos” as formal heel, while “walk” (as in “wanna go on a walk!?”  Or “walk!? Field?! Adventure?!) means run about exuberantly, possibly with ‘ zoomies’ keeping more or less in human’s  vicinity. 

Speaking of which it has stopped raining so we should go do a “walk?! Field?!” and get furry person pooped out. 

I like "with me".  Thanks Bill and Pen. 

10 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

I do hand signal training for almost every command. Good idea to combine. I also do whistle training for recall and whoa! (stop) commands.

I like gray. It is ironic that my wife (at 52) still has natural brown hair, when I'm totally cool with gray.

What I'm not cool with is that she tossed my Matrix So Silver Shampoo (my only beauty product, save soap) because she said it smelled "off." I said "that's how it smells." LOL.

Bill

 

It's been awhile I've laughed this much on a thread.  I was not gray when I was 52 either! I started going gray very gradually at about that age.  That was a few years ago since we line up fairly close in age! 🙂 Or, maybe she'll keep her natural color longer.  I still have some of my auburn hair but it's definitely not my deep auburn anymore b/c of the gray it's lighter.   Laughing at your shampoo bottle story.   I think my dh uses the same/similar product.  LOL!

[ktgrok]

25 minutes ago, Spy Car said:

Depends on a number of factors, including how careful you are and how mentally and physically developed the dog is. A typical Lab might be ready at 5 months, could be later. Rarely earlier, but maybe.

When you start (and even after) you don't want to do a "correction" so much as letting the dog walk into it. Aim for gentle "natural consequences" not the "yanked" style of corrections that were used with choke chains in the bad old days. KWIM?

Dogs get the message really quickly. If you've been training all along, the prong will be most useful for high distractibility moments (like other dogs being around) when informal training can break down. Use your judgement here.

Bill

 

Yes. It's for communication, not yank and crank (with exceptions for big safety emergency dog running into a rattlesnake, whatever). Two fingers on the leash to barely gently tug, to communicate "no, not that way" not a "punishment". 

[ktgrok]

When he says walk into it he means the dog corrects himself. Some dogs are so sensitive that is even too harsh, and you have to kind of help them but yes, it's very subtle. You can find lots of youtube videos on how to fit a prong collar and how to introduce the dog to it. It is very subtle with most dogs. I like to teach them to give into pressure on it before letting them actually correct themselves, but I've done it both ways. "Give into pressure" can be taught on a buckle collar too...you pull gently in a straight line and when they give in and move in that direction IMMEdIATELY release the pressure, praise, give a treat, etc. You can start that very early. That way you overcome their natural impulse to just pull against you when you put pressure on the leash. 

[Pen]

Someone was shooting guns so we returned sooner than planned.  Here is my dog on his walk...   the gate ahead of us is usually closed to traffic, so where we are is very safe for an off leash walk— but it can have traffic beyond it (even quite fast and inattentive drivers coming down a steep windy hill from the left beyond the gate) so I got his attention and he’s returning to be closer to me .  This is something he’s done most days since puppyhood so he knows the routine well at this stage.  They do respond better to hand signals, but where dog was gamboling about not looking at me till I called him, voice response is extremely important.  

I didn’t tell him anything in particular, just got his attention with his name so that he turned around, stopped running toward gate (potential danger) and started back my way.  

 

(ETA had he not turned back I would have Told  him to “sit” or “platz” which are his sit and down verbal commands and the best way to stop him if there were something attracting him beyond the gate.   We worked on those with lots of distractions from when we first got him at 5 months on) 

Edited August 21, 2019 by Pen

[Spy Car]

5 minutes ago, Ktgrok said:

When he says walk into it he means the dog corrects himself. Some dogs are so sensitive that is even too harsh, and you have to kind of help them but yes, it's very subtle. You can find lots of youtube videos on how to fit a prong collar and how to introduce the dog to it. It is very subtle with most dogs. I like to teach them to give into pressure on it before letting them actually correct themselves, but I've done it both ways. "Give into pressure" can be taught on a buckle collar too...you pull gently in a straight line and when they give in and move in that direction IMMEdIATELY release the pressure, praise, give a treat, etc. You can start that very early. That way you overcome their natural impulse to just pull against you when you put pressure on the leash. 

Just adding. 

It is also helpful to change directions, do 180s, and to go around objects (and people, if one has volunteers) in both directions.

I also like "walled walks" where I can start crowding a pup's space if he/she tries to get ahead of me and yielding space as he/she falls in line. This is also subtle, but effective.

Bill