S/o child with mental Health issues and Epstein Barr

[Pen]

ABC s could be helpful to watch in oneself as well as the child

 

another to watch is ANT s Automatic Negative Thoughts, which usually accompany stress and stress reactions  (As in I see my child still in underwear at 7:45, I think ___________ ...) 

 

I think Joan Rosenberg ‘s  technique, ending with the main part I keep in mind of 90 seconds to allow stress hormones to ebb away is very helpful.  There’s a YouTube of it.    2 minutes of the technique can save hours of stress.  Probably also really helpful for health and parental blood pressure.

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yes, you would log food because it was an antecedent.

So like if you look at behavior logging forms where people are really trying to sot that out, they'll include food, yes. And it will just be boxes to tick, like had breakfast, no breakfast, had exposure to known allergen (milk, whatever), no exposure.

 

Chronometer app which is usually used for diet type reasons has room to write notes about mood, time,  etc and could be useful for more detail.  You can put in a typical meal, and thereafter just note the meal and each item would be recorded.  It could allow discovery of a tendency to tantrum 6 hours after _____.   Which otherwise might be hard to figure  out

Edited May 2, 2019 by Pen

[PeterPan]

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

Harder to figure out—. It will still be quite hard

sorry that was a correction to a prior post

 

there are free ABC Charts available online also

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

 

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

So if you don't get enough answers now, you can act on what you know (new allergies, that the ADHD med made things worse) to address those issues. Find a pediatric psychiatrist and work on figuring out the meds. It's a first step.

 

Allergist / environmental medicine specialist.  And psychiatrist.  2 next steps.  Whoever can see child first, imho.

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

Then work on unraveling the next part.

I'm sorry to say that with kiddos like we have, getting the diagnosis is not actually the solution. It gives information and hopefully access to more help, or a new vision for a path forward, or a new prescription or diet that might help. But the diagnosis is a step toward, not a solution.

Then you have to take the next step. And then the next one. And then the next one. It's a long haul.

 

And hard too because the prior step doesn’t get to stop .  For example dairy will still have to be avoided while doing _____.    

In addition some things may not seem to help because of something else going on.

like maybe a medicine could not work when there was reaction to food constantly, but will work someday when other problems have been damped down

1 hour ago, Storygirl said:

 

And that's why I appreciate the advice that has been listed on this thread that is directed toward you, as the parent. Because in order for change to happen with your daughter, the change has to be implemented by you and your husband as the parents And this is so, so hard, when you are as hurt as you are. I feel so overwhelmed when I feel like I am drowning, and the answer is that I need to do more or do something different, because I don't feel I have the personal resources to tackle anything else.
 

 

ITA 

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited May 2, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

11 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I think it's more likely the medication reactions were due to genetics and just being a poor fit. You're describing known patterns of reactions and they have genetic causes.

 

Certainly that’s possible.

 

some people have noted really extreme reactions to foods, however.  Even when there’s no official allergy sometimes.

https://www.thefamilythathealstogether.com/the-cause-of-oppositional-defiant-disorder/

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited May 2, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

Oh no doubt. My ds his pretty horrible on milk. But lots of people have food allergies and don't go harming other people. It's that combination of issues.

 

I am again in some confusion on which kid is which.  Could you or someone else remind me what bethben’s dd Is doing in terms of harming other people?

 

[maize]

21 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

I am again in some confusion on which kid is which.  Could you or someone else remind me what bethben’s dd Is doing in terms of harming other people?

 

I don't remember physical harm being an issue, just arguing and rages/meltdowns. Maybe some property damage? I lose track as well.

It is easy to project from one situation into another.

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited May 2, 2019 by PeterPan

[Pen]

Interview with Ross Greene author of The Explosive Child

http://www.oprah.com/oprahshow/the-warning-signs-of-explosive-childhood-rage/all

[Pen]

@bethben could you please clarify if your dd is harming other people and if so, how?

[Pen]

51 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

nt

 

The article you linked about rage was good. I wish you’d put it back.

[Pen]

1 hour ago, PeterPan said:

nt

 

I just learned something interesting about the site... maybe another thing to put into the purple feedback complaints, but anyway worth knowing...   the editor may restore old information even if it’s been deleted:

“That's because when people get out of control and rage ...  . 

https://www.empoweringparents.com/article/child-rage-explosive-anger-in-kids-and-teens/  “  

 

was all still there!  

 

I’ll delete it myself shortly, except the link which I think is helpful.  

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by Pen

[Ottakee]

HUGS to you, your dh, and your dd.  Sounds like no one is really enjoying life right now.
 

I have been there, done that.  I agree with first trying to stabilize the moods.  The wrong meds can certainly make things worse but the right meds can be life changing.  In some RAD studies they show that about 75% of the kids with RAD have an underlying mood disorder.  For us, once we treated the mood disorder, we were able to work on the attachment and other stuff.

The ASD stuff is certainly worth looking into as well, along with the food allergies, etc.

You likely have several things going on here.  It gets overwhelming.  Personally I would work on the mood stabilization and repairing the relationship....on this team together, and then look at the ASD stuff/anxiety, etc. to help understand her better.  The Explosive Child is helpful while you are in the crisis.

Try to take care of yourself, your dh and your marriage.  That is important as well.

[Pen]

POST ADOPTION:  

 

Articles related to some post adoption issues:

ADHD: 

https://cedar.wwu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1053&context=orwwu

 

“Institutional autism”: 

https://www.drfederici.com/institutional-autism/

 

 

finding an adoption competent therapist:

https://www.holtinternational.org/pas/newsletter/2015/08/19/adoption-competent-therapy-vs-regular-therapy-what-is-the-difference/

 Note: I would have liked this last linked article to be the top one, but can’t rearrange in here.  I think if you read one thing out of this post, it’s the one to choose.  I tried bold to draw attention here first—it has to do with trauma as well as therapists

 

 

(FAS is another but tends to be statistically low out of China iirc)

@Ottakee (?) might be able to give some good RAD articles— though as I read your posts what you described didn’t sound as severe as what I have seen in parents dealing with RAD (though I saw a couple unusually severe ones, so I might be a very poor judge). 

————

this book was helpful to me and there is (was?) a forums website related to it—iirc it had short articles on a lot of subjects including iirc things like ptsd, and where to seek additional help 

Adoption Parenting: Creating a Toolbox, Building Connections https://www.amazon.com/dp/0972624457/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_F-eZCbAGEV7VQ

——

I suggest contact to the Coparc (or the post adoption resource council for your own state)  and to the organization that facilitated your  particular adoption, perhaps Holt International as a large excellent organization even if not involved originally,

 in addition perhaps these places (and the book linked above will have others though it’s old enough that some may be no longer available)  

http://poundpuplegacy.org/node/30279

https://www.nacac.org/connect/parent-group/name/parent-network-for-the-post-institutionalized-child/

 

Yahoo has had excellent RAD Groups, and groups for avoiding adoption dissolution.  I’ve not been member for a decade so can’t recall exact ones now.

 

——

3 international adoption families I knew had marital breakups, 2 at least in part due to stress related to the adopted child. (Though I’ve known even more really strong marriages with adopted kids.)   therapy for whole family would probably be a good idea sooner rather than later.

 

[Pen]

28 minutes ago, Pen said:

finding an adoption competent therapist:

https://www.holtinternational.org/pas/newsletter/2015/08/19/adoption-competent-therapy-vs-regular-therapy-what-is-the-difference/

 Note: I would have liked this last linked article to be the top one, but can’t rearrange in here.  I think if you read one thing out of this post, it’s the one to choose.  I tried bold to draw attention here first—it has to do with trauma as well as therapists

 

Quoting myself because I am trying to bring extra attention to this article. 

I recommend it to people posting here who would like to understand post adoption issues more, as well as @bethben

Holt International (the site that has the article) is a large international adoption organization located in the third closest city to where I live in Oregon.  Possibly because it is here, there are a lot of international adoption families in our area.    

What was described in OP and other thread I read sounds pretty typical for many  adoption situations, and Holt has a lot of articles and resources available to anyone. 

[Pen]

A quote from the article linked above (arguing and rage related to post adoption issues / trauma — ) 

”Let’s follow John farther in his life. When he gets to middle school, .... He becomes argumentative even about little things like what color is the sky. He will argue until the cows come home. ...  

 After more visits to the therapist and doctor, he will now have the additional diagnosis of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD). He will be prescribed more medications and his parents will be advised to make him earn privileges and give him bigger consequences, even excluding him from family activities. Now he feels backed into a corner that he cannot get out of and he becomes angry, but deep down at his very core is a deep black pit of shame and grief. He lashes out in bigger ways.

Fueled by neurotransmitters that are out of balance, his rage at everyone intensifies and he damages property. This time, his parents can’t take him to the doctor or therapist because the juvenile justice system has stepped in and now he is under their control and his diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder. John has become a victim of a mental health system that didn’t understand his unique ...”

Edited May 3, 2019 by Pen

[Storygirl]

Thanks for the links, Pen. I'm going to take a look at them myself, when I have the chance. Right now DD13 has two friends over for the afternoon, and the dog is very excited about having visitors, so my attention is divided.

[bethben]

2 hours ago, Pen said:

A quote from the article linked above (arguing and rage related to post adoption issues / trauma — ) 

”Let’s follow John farther in his life. When he gets to middle school, .... He becomes argumentative even about little things like what color is the sky. He will argue until the cows come home. ...  

 After more visits to the therapist and doctor, he will now have the additional diagnosis of Oppositional Defiant Disorder (ODD). He will be prescribed more medications and his parents will be advised to make him earn privileges and give him bigger consequences, even excluding him from family activities. Now he feels backed into a corner that he cannot get out of and he becomes angry, but deep down at his very core is a deep black pit of shame and grief. He lashes out in bigger ways.

Fueled by neurotransmitters that are out of balance, his rage at everyone intensifies and he damages property. This time, his parents can’t take him to the doctor or therapist because the juvenile justice system has stepped in and now he is under their control and his diagnosis is Antisocial Personality Disorder. John has become a victim of a mental health system that didn’t understand his unique ...”

I feel like sometimes this is the direction we are headed.  We are trying to stop it.  I know she will get an ADHD diagnosis but at it's heart, I don't feel like that is her biggest issue.  I do feel like she has a trauma brain and that is what needs to be healed.  Unfortunately, despite my calling about and making sure I would get placed with a psychologist who could evaluate whether it was trauma or something else that was my daughter's issue, I believe we got a psychologist who applied typical child growing up in a typical family to her situation.  She started in a situation of neglect and just joining our family did not make that lack of early brain development heal.  Consequences don't work, rewards don't work - she wants to be in control and at 11, there is only so much she should be in control of. 

[Pen]

27 minutes ago, bethben said:

I feel like sometimes this is the direction we are headed.  We are trying to stop it.  I know she will get an ADHD diagnosis but at it's heart, I don't feel like that is her biggest issue.  I do feel like she has a trauma brain and that is what needs to be healed.  Unfortunately, despite my calling about and making sure I would get placed with a psychologist who could evaluate whether it was trauma or something else that was my daughter's issue, I believe we got a psychologist who applied typical child growing up in a typical family to her situation.

 

27 minutes ago, bethben said:

 She started in a situation of neglect and just joining our family did not make that lack of early brain development heal.  Consequences don't work, rewards don't work - she wants to be in control and at 11, there is only so much she should be in control of. 

 

I think you saw a neuropsychologist for a basic evaluation?

 This is primarily used IME to determine the existence of Learning Disabilities. Or  Traumatic Brain Injuries type trauma.   Usually with  a main focus toward cognitive functioning.  Sometimes also social and emotional issues are discovered .  Neuropsych evaluations do testing for certain types of brain functioning .  

I’ve personally never heard of a neuropsychologist who is an adoption trauma specialist because it is a different sort of specialized training.  

You learned your dd doesn’t have any learning disability which is the main thing you might have gotten from that type of evaluation , and that is itself extremely useful.  You may get some additional ideas such as with regard to ADHD, or may not.

I strongly suggest that you pursue the allergy and environmental medicine direction *and* finding a psychiatrist and / or therapist who is adoption issue literate.  

This may be as few as two people or may be 4 different people.

1) Some doctors (or perhaps ND or NPs) are both (a) allergy and (b) environmental medicine specialists combined, some separate those fields.  There’s probably a listing online of MD doctors board certified in each and perhaps a way to narrow that to those with double certifications.  Also some practices will have one person who is an allergy specialist and another who is an environmental medicine specialist.  

2) Some (c) psychiatrists do (d) therapy as well as diagnose and prescribe, some don’t.  There’s a good chance your dd will need both therapy and also some medication— though perhaps excellent  therapy alone would be enough.  It is extremely unlikely from what I understand about adoption trauma issues that medication alone would be enough.   (In some states only doctors can prescribe medication, in others people other than doctors can prescribe.) 

Afaik Both (c) psychiatrist and (d) therapist need to be adoption literate, adoption competent.  The article has some links to try to help find someone.  Contact Holt for leads, contact Coparc, contact University of Colorado... if who you talk to doesn’t know, ask who might...   keep asking.  

You may even have to travel out of state for it, but you’ll find someone.   Closer than China.  

And in the meantime, I do strongly recommend The Explosive Child

[Pen]

https://www.adoptex.org/the-adoption-journey/post-adoption-services/colorado/mental-health-professionals/

[Pen]

Explosive Child, The: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children https://www.amazon.com/dp/0062270451/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_p2CZCbC15G07H

https://www.adoptex.org/the-adoption-journey/post-adoption-services/colorado/classes-trainings/class-tbri-in-depth-connecting-principles/

Edited May 4, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

 

Quote

 She started in a situation of neglect and just joining our family did not make that lack of early brain development heal.  Consequences don't work, rewards don't work - she wants to be in control and at 11, there is only so much she should be in control of. 

 

If you could do something like this you might meet other people  who could also lead to more resources:

https://www.adoptex.org/the-adoption-journey/post-adoption-services/colorado/classes-trainings/class-tbri-in-depth-connecting-principles/

 

you may need to reshape your ideas of control 🤝

 obviously you cannot crash your car just because your 11yo thinks there’s no car in a parking spot— but that sort of thing you described is very classic for foster and adoption kids, and handling it may be very different than with a non-foster non-adoption kid.  

Ditto with probably the majority of what is going on now

some principles in Explosive Child have to do with skills lagging in how to handle problems.  That can be a problem for both the child and the parents

one very  positive  hopeful thing to consider thing is that in positively addressing what your dd needs to heal, and finding family therapy and strategies,  you and your husband may also do a lot of healing and could end up better than you were before, especially as to emotional stress, rather than feeling drained and like your lives will be shorter from it.  🙏

Edited May 4, 2019 by Pen

[Pen]

On 5/3/2019 at 10:56 AM, bethben said:

I feel like sometimes this is the direction we are headed.  We are trying to stop it.  I know she will get an ADHD diagnosis but at it's heart, I don't feel like that is her biggest issue.  I do feel like she has a trauma brain and that is what needs to be healed.  Unfortunately, despite my calling about and making sure I would get placed with a psychologist who could evaluate whether it was trauma or something else that was my daughter's issue, I believe we got a psychologist who applied typical child growing up in a typical family to her situation.  She started in a situation of neglect and just joining our family did not make that lack of early brain development heal.  Consequences don't work, rewards don't work - she wants to be in control and at 11, there is only so much she should be in control of. 

 

I wonder if anything in the free online mindful parenting conference that @Runningmom80 ? Posted  signup link for might be relevant?