Precalc and my slow worker ... What do I do/plan and how do I help?

[Momto6inIN]

DS is in 11th and currently using Chalkdust Precalc. He likes the format and he likes Dana Mosely and he's doing well and getting an A and understands the concepts (always has). But he is s.l.o.w. when it comes to math. It's also not his favorite subject and so I've never been really pushy about it and have told him to work diligently an hour each day and call that good. It took him a little over 2 years to get through Video Text Algebra starting in 8th grade and 1.5 years to get through Video Text Geometey and I had budgeted 1.5 years for this Precalc and figured he'd be done by graduation. But at the rate he is currently completing the lessons that's not going to happen.

He really does work diligently but is getting overwhelmed by the thought of getting it all done because he knows he's going slower than "normal" and because he has a lot of other activities that are more his thing than math and he feels like spending 1.5-2 hours/day on math is too much and is pulling time away from what are, for him, more valuable pursuits. These activities are worthwhile things for sure - his music (piano, guitar, and voice) and his drama troupe where he has a leadership role and his speech and debate club. It's not like he just wants to have more free time for video games or something. But it's my job to make sure he has a well rounded education and if he wants to go to college (and he says he does) then I think precalc is a minimum requirement.

He is a very capable student who does well with upper average to honors level work in all his other courses. He consistently tests in 99th percentile in English/Reading and about 85th percentile in math, so it's not that he's not capable of the work.

This is not a JAWM - am I being unreasonable in requiring him to finish Precalc before graduating? Should I be tougher on him and tell him to suck it up and spend more time on math every day? And how can I help/support him in this?

Thanks for reading, this got long ...

Edited February 26, 2019 by Momto5inIN

[almondbutterandjelly]

I guess if he only gets halfway through by graduation, you could call it PreCalculus A which implies that he didn't complete the other half.  I have a math-hater, too, who I wish I could drop Precal with, but we use Mathusee, and it doesn't get much lighter than that.  And I don't want her to have to take any remedial math in college, which she would hate because that's like extra math classes.  So we're sticking it out, but we do work as long as needed to finish that day's work.  Upper level math takes longer.  It just does.

[Aloha2U]

1 hour ago, Momto5inIN said:

DS is in 11th and currently using Chalkdust Precalc. He likes the format and he likes Dana Mosely and he's doing well and getting an A and understands the concepts (always has). But he is s.l.o.w. when it comes to math. It's also not his favorite subject and so I've never been really pushy about it and have told him to work diligently an hour each day and call that good. It took him a little over 2 years to get through Video Text Algebra starting in 8th grade and 1.5 years to get through Video Text Geometey and I had budgeted 1.5 years for this Precalc and figured he'd be done by graduation. But at the rate he is currently completing the lessons that's not going to happen.

He really does work diligently but is getting overwhelmed by the thought of getting it all done because he knows he's going slower than "normal" and because he has a lot of other activities that are more his thing than math and he feels like spending 1.5-2 hours/day on math is too much and is pulling time away from what are, for him, more valuable pursuits. These activities are worthwhile things for sure - his music (piano, guitar, and voice) and his drama troupe where he has a leadership role and his speech and debate club. It's not like he just wants to have more free time for video games or something. But it's my job to make sure he has a well rounded education and if he wants to go to college (and he says he does) then I think precalc is a minimum requirement.

He is a very capable student who does well with upper average to honors level work in all his other courses. He consistently tests in 99th percentile in English/Reading and about 85th percentile in math, so it's not that he's not capable of the work.

This is not a JAWM - am I being unreasonable in requiring him to finish Precalc before graduating? Should I be tougher on him and tell him to suck it up and spend more time on math every day? And how can I help/support him in this?

Thanks for reading, this got long ...

 

I believe the time your DS spent in both VT Algebra and VT Geometry is normal, especially for VT in my opinion. And just to add a little perspective or perhaps a reminder as encouragement, both are considered Honors courses by the publisher.  

Quote

Will this course be a two-year course in the same way that the Algebra course is?

You must realize that the only reason the Algebra course could ever be considered a two-year course, is that it is taught as a two-year course in the public domain.  Technically, it is a one-year course, just as Geometry is, but, as we all know, it is virtually impossible to cover completely, in one school year, any subject in the public schools.  Therefore, 2 credits are given for completing Algebra in two years.  Geometry, on the other hand, has never been considered as a two-year course, even though it contains just as much “material” as an Algebra course does.  In other words, when a student takes Geometry in a school setting, it is a given that the course will not be completed in one year.  There will be some material that will simply not be covered.  The only way it will eventually be covered, is for the student to take a course called “Advanced Mathematics”, or “Pre-Calculus”, courses which are now offered to complete anything in Algebra or Geometry that was omitted, in preparation for Calculus.  

Because “Pre-Calculus” is typically a mixed-basket where many Algebra or Geometry topics end up due to lack of time, and since VideoText is not having to enforce a strict timeline, you will actually find these advanced topics covered in various locations in both our Algebra and Geometry courses. Thus, you will be able to claim two math credits: one for Geometry and one for Trigonometry/Pre-Calculus combined. VideoText does still recommend checking with your overseeing credit provider to make sure that no other concepts are recommend, but you should not encounter any issues in claiming credit.

Quote

Q. Are your Algebra and Geometry programs considered “Honors” courses?

A. Our Algebra program certainly contains “Advanced” Algebra, in that it covers all Algebraic concepts that are even in college courses, and it certainly is an “Honors” course compared to the standard Algebra taught in many public schools. While it is not as comparatively exhaustive as the Geometry program (Geometry often lacks much more in many programs than Algebra), we would say that the difference would warrant the word “Honors” in our Algebra program and most definitely in our Geometry.  Trigonometry is already typically an “Honors” course, so the extra distinction would not really be valid there.

In particular, our Geometry can warrant the term “honors” because of a significant treatment of formal logic, a more exhaustive study of proofs and theorems (many more than a typical Geometry course), and our complete study of all Plane Geometric shapes up through circles.  Our Algebra course could warrant “Honors” simply due to its overall thorough content, and coverage of all Algebra concepts.

 

Out of curiosity, did your ds complete Module F of VT Geometry? It is my understanding that it is being offered as an online course directly through VT.

[Momto6inIN]

28 minutes ago, Mom21 said:

 

I believe the time your DS spent in both VT Algebra and VT Geometry is normal, especially for VT in my opinion. And just to add a little perspective or perhaps a reminder as encouragement, both are considered Honors courses by the publisher.  

 

Out of curiosity, did your ds complete Module F of VT Geometry? It is my understanding that it is being offered as an online course directly through VT.

My oldest DS completed all of VT Algebra and Geometry in 2 years, although he's a math whiz so I try not to compare the 2 boys. My DD is going to take about 1.5 years to do all of VT Algebra, so this DS's 2+ a little years seems long to me, but maybe you're right and he was roughly on target there.

But the Chalkdust precalc materials said he should be able to complete it in 1.5 years at an hour/day, and he's definitely not going to make that by a long shot.

We did not do the trig module of VT Geometry. It wasn't available when my oldest DS went through it, and I think there is a lot more practice with functions in Chalkdust, which is pretty important for the SAT from what I understand and which VT is lacking in, so we decided to switch to Chalkdust for Precalc instead.

[Momto6inIN]

1 hour ago, Mom21 said:

 

I believe the time your DS spent in both VT Algebra and VT Geometry is normal, especially for VT in my opinion. And just to add a little perspective or perhaps a reminder as encouragement, both are considered Honors courses by the publisher.  

 

Out of curiosity, did your ds complete Module F of VT Geometry? It is my understanding that it is being offered as an online course directly through VT.

Quoting you again because I'm glad you got me thinking about VT's trig module that is now available ... maybe I can have him stop the Chalkdust for now, complete that module (his VT online account is still active since he recently completed VT Geometry) and that will buy us some time to decide what to do about his math for senior year. I'd like to have my engineer DH and my comp sci older DS look more deeply into the scope and sequence of VT and Chalkdust both and see what he might be lacking in and maybe just complete those chapters of Chalkdust instead of the whole thing, and it he's doing the trig module I wouldn't feel so pressured and rushed to figure something out right.now. because he'd be doing something valuable and important while we figured it out.

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought!

[Storygirl]

We don't homeschool any more, so I am not familiar with the programs you list.

However, I wanted to comment that in brick and mortar school, DD17 spends more than an hour on math per day, once you add time spent in class to the time spent doing homework. Could he add a "homework" period in the afternoon, where he spends another thirty minutes on math?

I realize he would not appreciate this idea, but it's something to consider.

[MamaSprout]

Are you following the Chalkdust assignments? We're finishing Algebra 2 and moving into Precalculus using a slightly different version of the Larson text. I was assigning every other odd until I looked to see what Chalkdust was assigning. He rarely has the student complete more than 25 problems. I was assigning closer to 40.

Edited February 27, 2019 by MamaSprout

[Momto6inIN]

30 minutes ago, MamaSprout said:

Are you following the Chalkdust assignments? We're finishing Algebra 2 and moving into Precalculus using a slightly different version of the Larson test. I was assigning every other odd until I looked to see what Chalkdust was assigning. He rarely has the student complete more than 25 problems. I was assigning closer to 40.

Yes, he's following the assigned problems sheet, he's just slow with those problems. Yesterday he spent 4.5 hours doing one lesson' s problems 😞

If I had known that he was spending that much time on 1 subject I would have told him to stop and take a break and switch to another one becauze his brain would not be working efficiently after all that time, but he didn't tell me til afterwards. 

[Mom0012]

It can be such a hard call with math.  I don’t think 1.5 - 2 hours a day is unreasonable for math, but it can be hard to fit in.  I like your idea of revisiting VT for trig if you think that was a better fit and then filling in with another text.

[klmama]

Just another vote that 1.5-2 hours daily on math for a non-mathy student is to be expected.  I found the same to be true for chemistry.  It does work better if it's not all at once.

[Garga]

14 hours ago, Momto5inIN said:

Yes, he's following the assigned problems sheet, he's just slow with those problems. Yesterday he spent 4.5 hours doing one lesson' s problems 😞

If I had known that he was spending that much time on 1 subject I would have told him to stop and take a break and switch to another one becauze his brain would not be working efficiently after all that time, but he didn't tell me til afterwards. 

This has happened in various classes in my house entirely too may times.  I had my son tested this year and he does have slow processing speed.  Everything he does takes looonger than other people.  And he doesn’t know when to flag me that something is taking too long and he keeps at it, like your son, until he’s 2 hours past his brain’s endurance.  I tell him, “If this starts dragging TELL ME so we can make a plan of attack.”  But he seems to forget to tell me.  And then we are stuck dealing with shuffling around all the other classes he has for the day.

11 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

It can be such a hard call with math.  I don’t think 1.5 - 2 hours a day is unreasonable for math, but it can be hard to fit in.  I like your idea of revisiting VT for trig if you think that was a better fit and then filling in with another text.

My son takes an online math class that takes an hour and a half of live classroom time on Mon and Wed.  He does homework for 2 hours on Tues, and 1.5-2 hours on Thurs and Fri, each.  So, (including the instruction time) 8-9 hours a week on math.  Weeks with tests are brutal.  He can easily take 2-3 hours for a test, and that’s on top of the homework.  He’s super slow on tests.

11 hours ago, klmama said:

Just another vote that 1.5-2 hours daily on math for a non-mathy student is to be expected.  I found the same to be true for chemistry.  It does work better if it's not all at once.

 

Yes.  Science is the same way.  I schedule 2 hours for his science classes as well as the 1.5-2 hours for his math.  All the other classes are squeezed in around those.  He works from 9 to 4 or 5 every day (with lots of breaks).  I keep his ASL and economics classes very light to make up for the 3 to 4 hours of math/science he does every day. 

Note: my son works for 50 minutes and takes a 10 minute break every hour.  50/10, 50/10.  He uses a timer to be sure he’s taking his breaks.

Edited February 28, 2019 by Garga

[Frances]

Does he also work through the summer? Really mastering math can take a significant chunk of time for some students.

[Momto6inIN]

10 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Any idea what's taking him so long? What kind of questions take him that amount of time? 

I don't know for sure ... I think he just got bogged down because he was working so long and it became a vicious cycle. I think if he'd stopped after an hour or so and picked it up again later it wouldn't have taken him that long, but I can't be sure. This was a chapter on quadratic equations and he's done those before with VT so it wasn't new to him, but it was over a year ago so he might have forgotten a lot of it.

5 hours ago, Frances said:

Does he also work through the summer? Really mastering math can take a significant chunk of time for some students.

No, he typically works almost full time over the summer. But I told him he might have to squeeze it in this summer. He was not happy but he understands he needs to get it done 😞

[Momto6inIN]

22 hours ago, Mom0012 said:

It can be such a hard call with math.  I don’t think 1.5 - 2 hours a day is unreasonable for math, but it can be hard to fit in.  I like your idea of revisiting VT for trig if you think that was a better fit and then filling in with another text.

 

21 hours ago, klmama said:

Just another vote that 1.5-2 hours daily on math for a non-mathy student is to be expected.  I found the same to be true for chemistry.  It does work better if it's not all at once.

 

10 hours ago, Garga said:

This has happened in various classes in my house entirely too may times.  I had my son tested this year and he does have slow processing speed.  Everything he does takes looonger than other people.  And he doesn’t know when to flag me that something is taking too long and he keeps at it, like your son, until he’s 2 hours past his brain’s endurance.  I tell him, “If this starts dragging TELL ME so we can make a plan of attack.”  But he seems to forget to tell me.  And then we are stuck dealing with shuffling around all the other classes he has for the day.

My son takes an online math class that takes an hour and a half of live classroom time on Mon and Wed.  He does homework for 2 hours on Tues, and 1.5-2 hours on Thurs and Fri, each.  So, (including the instruction time) 8-9 hours a week on math.  Weeks with tests are brutal.  He can easily take 2-3 hours for a test, and that’s on top of the homework.  He’s super slow on tests.

 

Yes.  Science is the same way.  I schedule 2 hours for his science classes as well as the 1.5-2 hours for his math.  All the other classes are squeezed in around those.  He works from 9 to 4 or 5 every day (with lots of breaks).  I keep his ASL and economics classes very light to make up for the 3 to 4 hours of math/science he does every day. 

Note: my son works for 50 minutes and takes a 10 minute break every hour.  50/10, 50/10.  He uses a timer to be sure he’s taking his breaks.

Looks like the consensus is that he should probably buck up and spend more time on math each day. Which I already kind of knew and had told him, but was hoping not to have to enforce because math is sooooo not his favorite. Maybe it's just bothering him more now because these few weeks are the 3 very busy build up weeks to his drama performance and it won't seem quite so overwhelming to him after that's over ...

Thanks guys, the Hive always comes through with good advice 🙂

[Momto6inIN]

34 minutes ago, square_25 said:

 

I don't know that I agree with this consensus as a math teacher :D. I'd want to know what he's spending so much time on, honestly. You say he gets the concepts, so what's tripping him up? Large numbers? Having to do lots of problems? Weakness in a specific area? Boredom? 

I'd probably try to see what exactly  the problem was before deciding that he just needs to do more of it :-). 

 

I don't sit next to him and watch him anymore, so I don't know for sure, but in the past when I did sit next to him and watch him it was always having to do lots of problems combined with his tendency to make silly mistakes like forgetting negatives, switching numbers around, etc. and he'd get to a solution that didn't make sense and have to start over. This has been his natural tendency with math since he was in elementary and middle school and tried to speed through his work, and he knows it, and so now I think he tries to compensate for that tendency by going extra slow and being extra careful and checking every step. And then he still makes silly mistakes and has to start over. There is a lot of crossing out and starting again in his work.

[Momto6inIN]

Probably ... but the Chalkdust curriculum has a list of the problems that the instructor says you should do. I guess I assumed that they were the "essential" problems, but maybe I should look at them individually and see if there are lots of duplicates/practice and cut the list down for him

2 minutes ago, square_25 said:

Does he need that many problems to get the ideas down? Would having fewer problems make him more careful by any chance? 

 

[klmama]

3 hours ago, Momto5inIN said:

Maybe it's just bothering him more now because these few weeks are the 3 very busy build up weeks to his drama performance and it won't seem quite so overwhelming to him after that's over ...

Ahhh.  Even though I am one that said more time is typical for non-mathy students (at least those trying to do the same amount and difficulty level of math as the more math-minded students), I am also a mom who adjusts school expectations in the final few weeks leading up to drama performances.  YYMV, but I've found it works best to let my dc decide how much work to accomplish those weeks.  We just plan to spend extra time once it's done.

[Aloha2U]

Perhaps doing just the odd or even numbered problems?

Edited February 28, 2019 by Mom21

[Momto6inIN]

9 hours ago, square_25 said:

 

Do you have any examples of problems he's gotten stuck on recently? 🙂

This week it was these. They all have in common finding the real zeros of a function. (I couldn't figure out how to superscript, so hopefully you understand which are the exponents)

Find all real zeros of the polynomial function f(z) = z4 - z 3 - 2z - 4

Final real zeros of the polynomial function f(x) = 4x5 + 12x4 - 11x3 - 42x2 + 7x + 30

Use synthetic division to verify the upper and lower bounds of the real zeros of f. Then find the real zeros of the function f(x) = x4 - 4x3 +15 upper bound x=4 lower bound x=-1

Use synthetic division to verify the upper and lower bounds of the real zeros of f. Then find the real zeros of the function of the function f(x) = x4 - 4x3 + 16x -16 upper bound x=5 lower bound x=-3

The graph of y=f(x) is shown. Use the graph as an aid to find all the real zeros of the function y = 2x4 - 9x3 + 5x2 + 3x - 1

[MamaSprout]

On 2/26/2019 at 5:09 PM, Momto5inIN said:

Quoting you again because I'm glad you got me thinking about VT's trig module that is now available ... maybe I can have him stop the Chalkdust for now, complete that module (his VT online account is still active since he recently completed VT Geometry) and that will buy us some time to decide what to do about his math for senior year. I'd like to have my engineer DH and my comp sci older DS look more deeply into the scope and sequence of VT and Chalkdust both and see what he might be lacking in and maybe just complete those chapters of Chalkdust instead of the whole thing, and it he's doing the trig module I wouldn't feel so pressured and rushed to figure something out right.now. because he'd be doing something valuable and important while we figured it out.

Anyway, thanks for the food for thought!

I think VT considers it PreCalculus if they finish the trig module. So I think this is a good plan. You could always do targeted SAT prep if he needs a little more after the VT and whatever he has finished in Chalkdust. ETA- he might do better with the functions after he's had a little time for things to gel, anyhow.

Edited March 1, 2019 by MamaSprout