Math....sigh

[KrissiK]

 My middle daughter struggles in math. All my kids do, really, but her struggles are really different.  We have been doing CLE and while it has worked wonders for my other kids, she still really struggles. She’s a 4th grader and we recently took the STAR tests and she scored in the 4th percentile. There are gaps in her conceptual understanding, and these things take a long long time to work through. For example, I don’t remember when she actually learned her colors, but it was long after most children learn theirs. We are not worried, we are considering an IEP through our charter, but we are still just thinking about that. She’s diligent about her schoolwork, but I just need to get her through math. She’s terribly discouraged. I was thinking about Math-U-See. Does anyone have any other ideas?

[maize]

You might ask on the learning challenges board; based on what you have posted here I would suspect dyscalculia and there are folks over there with experience in teaching dyscalculic kiddos.

[Terabith]

I would actually look at Ronit Bird's ebooks:  Dots, Cuisinairre Rods, Multiplication, and Fractions.   

[kristin0713]

It's important to figure out what's going on before switching programs.  If you suspect a learning disability, have her evaluated as soon as possible so that you know what you are dealing with and can make an informed decision regarding her needs. 

[PeterPan]

Do you feel like where she is academically fits where she is developmentally? My ds has an IEP and got it at age 6. Is there a reason you're waiting?

Yes evals would give you better info to target what is going on. Ronit Bird is only $10 per ebook and I'd start there not with MUS. Maybe MUS will be enough but it's expensive and not as targeted to SLD math. Ronit Bird will be cheaper, something you can do with what you already have. I would work her through the ebooks as quickly as you can to mastery, trying to get through all in a year, then see where you're at. At that point you would go into Ronit Bird's print book Overcoming Math Difficulties. Given her apparent delays and that the ebooks come with videos, I would start with the ebooks, not Overcoming. 

How are her language skills and writing? When a child has this mix, language testing can show stuff. They could be compelled to do it as part of the IEP process. The TNL is good (test of narrative language).

[prairiewindmomma]

Hey! I have one kid with a math disability and one kid who is just way behind average on her conceptual understanding.

A few thoughts:

1. It is spectacularly hard to find someone qualified to test for math disabilities. The Woodcock Johnson test breaks down math skills a bit, in that you have separate scores for "broad mathematics", calculation skills, problem solving, etc. and the WISC can look at processing speed and other things---but finding someone who can interpret those beyond "yup, there's a problem" is challenging and finding someone to remediate is even worse.  I feel like the US is starting to become somewhat proficient in testing for dyslexia, but we are decades behind the rest of the world in testing for and remediating dyscalculia.  This book by Jane Emerson is out there: https://www.amazon.com/Dyscalculia-Assessment-Jane-Emerson/dp/140819371X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1537893062&sr=8-4&keywords=dyscalculia, which I bought and had shipped over, but honestly, I think if you are working closely with your kid everyday, it's generally pretty easy to spot the breakdown and know there's an issue.  If you can swing an assessment and you haven't had one done before, I think they are generally worth it as there are often multiple issues going on and it's easier to make a plan if you know if you are also dealing with slow processing speed, or working memory issues, etc.

2. As far as understanding how dyscalculia affects students, there aren't a lot of US publishers out there.   Most of the materials out there are actually British. Jane Emerson, Glynis Hannell, Anne Henderson, Brian Butterworth, Ronit Bird, are some of the books I went through.  I still want to read some things from Steve Chinn.  Fundamentally, though, they all say that the breakdown is in some discrete skills, and that a multi-sensory approach works best.

3. As far as remediation goes, I do like Ronit Bird's materials best. Her e-books, if you have an iPad or other apple device, are inexpensive and easily accessible through iTunes. Her paper books contain the same material, but without the video demonstrations, but they are unwieldy and more expensive.  The dyscalculia toolkit, IMO, is one of her LEAST helpful books because she doesn't make the bridge well between ideas of things to do and how to create a systematic remediation program.  What I like about the ebooks is that the activities all appear to be games. They don't feel school-y at all and the activities are really engaging.  I really can't recommend them highly enough.

We actually moved from MUS to CLE with my dyscalcic kid.  MUS is mastery based.  Once a skill is taught, there just isn't enough loop back of review to keep skills up.  I also find that my dyscalcic kids needed a lot of practice on time, money, and measurement and that's just not there in MUS. We will use MUS in high school, because there just isn't much out there for high school level stuff, but if you're still somewhere in the 300s or 400s, I wouldn't switch yet.

How is she doing on her end of booklet tests? Is she still getting at least 80% on those?  If she's not, are you moving her on or having her hang out to keep working on stuff?

 

[acresoft]

Child1st publications has some right brained math products.

Or:

Critical Thinking Company's Mathematical Reasoning

If it's dyscalculia:

https://blog.mindresearch.org/blog/homeschool-math-story

https://learningabledkids.com/mathematics/mathematics.htm

[KrissiK]

23 hours ago, PeterPan said:

Do you feel like where she is academically fits where she is developmentally? My ds has an IEP and got it at age 6. Is there a reason you're waiting?

Yes evals would give you better info to target what is going on. Ronit Bird is only $10 per ebook and I'd start there not with MUS. Maybe MUS will be enough but it's expensive and not as targeted to SLD math. Ronit Bird will be cheaper, something you can do with what you already have. I would work her through the ebooks as quickly as you can to mastery, trying to get through all in a year, then see where you're at. At that point you would go into Ronit Bird's print book Overcoming Math Difficulties. Given her apparent delays and that the ebooks come with videos, I would start with the ebooks, not Overcoming. 

How are her language skills and writing? When a child has this mix, language testing can show stuff. They could be compelled to do it as part of the IEP process. The TNL is good (test of narrative language).

She tested at the second grade level in math, but was on target for reading. It took her forever to learn to read, but now she is a pretty good reader. My other kids struggle in math, but they are just sssslllllloooooowwwww to understand. Eventually, they catch on with enough practice.  Her struggles are different. Her entire way of thinking is different. It’s hard to explain and hard to figure out.

regarding the IEP, we just started with this charter this year, so this is basically when it’s come on my radar.

[KrissiK]

21 hours ago, prairiewindmomma said:

Hey! I have one kid with a math disability and one kid who is just way behind average on her conceptual understanding.

A few thoughts:

1. It is spectacularly hard to find someone qualified to test for math disabilities. The Woodcock Johnson test breaks down math skills a bit, in that you have separate scores for "broad mathematics", calculation skills, problem solving, etc. and the WISC can look at processing speed and other things---but finding someone who can interpret those beyond "yup, there's a problem" is challenging and finding someone to remediate is even worse.  I feel like the US is starting to become somewhat proficient in testing for dyslexia, but we are decades behind the rest of the world in testing for and remediating dyscalculia.  This book by Jane Emerson is out there: https://www.amazon.com/Dyscalculia-Assessment-Jane-Emerson/dp/140819371X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1537893062&sr=8-4&keywords=dyscalculia, which I bought and had shipped over, but honestly, I think if you are working closely with your kid everyday, it's generally pretty easy to spot the breakdown and know there's an issue.  If you can swing an assessment and you haven't had one done before, I think they are generally worth it as there are often multiple issues going on and it's easier to make a plan if you know if you are also dealing with slow processing speed, or working memory issues, etc.

2. As far as understanding how dyscalculia affects students, there aren't a lot of US publishers out there.   Most of the materials out there are actually British. Jane Emerson, Glynis Hannell, Anne Henderson, Brian Butterworth, Ronit Bird, are some of the books I went through.  I still want to read some things from Steve Chinn.  Fundamentally, though, they all say that the breakdown is in some discrete skills, and that a multi-sensory approach works best.

3. As far as remediation goes, I do like Ronit Bird's materials best. Her e-books, if you have an iPad or other apple device, are inexpensive and easily accessible through iTunes. Her paper books contain the same material, but without the video demonstrations, but they are unwieldy and more expensive.  The dyscalculia toolkit, IMO, is one of her LEAST helpful books because she doesn't make the bridge well between ideas of things to do and how to create a systematic remediation program.  What I like about the ebooks is that the activities all appear to be games. They don't feel school-y at all and the activities are really engaging.  I really can't recommend them highly enough.

We actually moved from MUS to CLE with my dyscalcic kid.  MUS is mastery based.  Once a skill is taught, there just isn't enough loop back of review to keep skills up.  I also find that my dyscalcic kids needed a lot of practice on time, money, and measurement and that's just not there in MUS. We will use MUS in high school, because there just isn't much out there for high school level stuff, but if you're still somewhere in the 300s or 400s, I wouldn't switch yet.

How is she doing on her end of booklet tests? Is she still getting at least 80% on those?  If she's not, are you moving her on or having her hang out to keep working on stuff?

 

1.  I think I kind of know. She has gaps in her thinking. Not gaps of knowledge, but gaps of.....something. I don’t know how to explain it.

2. I will check those out.

3.ok, she definitely does not need something mastery based. PeterPan mentiones Ronit Bird, too. I love CLE and don’t want to switch, but I feel like I need to circle back with her because she just cannot move on. Fractions are looming and that is going to completely throw her for a loop.

[PeterPan]

Ronit Bird will be your intervention, not a whole curriculum. You'll work through the ebooks and then go back to your preferred curriculum. The ebooks together cover the content of Toolkit, which is why it's easier for you to start with the ebooks.

[prairiewindmomma]

A few weird tricks to play with your kid just to test for basic number sense:

1. If you throw out on the table several m&ms (or coins or whatever) (under 12, but more than 5), does she instinctively know it's 7 (or whatever number it is)or does she have to count 1-2-3-4...? 

2. If you put a handful of cuisenaire rods on the table, can she automatically make 10s? Like if you put a 2 rod down, does she know that it needs an 8 road (or get close to it by picking a 7 rod)?

3. Can she count numbers? Skip count? On those CLE questions where one is asked to break down a number like 3492 does she understand, conceptually, that that is 3000 + 400 + 90 + 2? 

4. Can she count change? (another reason I love CLE)

5. Can she read an analog clock? (another reason I love CLE)

6. Does she struggle with one to one correspondence (like knowing how many cups/plates/ etc. to set out on the table for each family member)?

I think if you kind of chart the types of problems she is struggling with in the CLE workbook, you'll get a good idea of where some conceptual breakdowns are. Charts and graphs are another area of breakdown.

 

So, that's conceptual understanding.

There's vocabulary breakdown, symbolic breakdown, procedural breakdown (knowing the steps of how to do a problem and putting those in the right order)..... Usually there are multiple, multiple breakdowns.....

We literally had to take one kid back to ground zero in math to systematically fill in breakdown points to get a solid foundation. Ronit Bird's stuff is really good about that.  Buy a big bag of M&Ms--you'll both need them...but that an 100 number chart can take you through a lot of exercises to kind of see where things are falling apart.  Number recognition, place value, skip counting...those can all be checked in an afternoon with a bag of m&ms and it seems fun and rewarding because there is candy involved.

[PeterPan]

Someone has developed a number sense diagnostic tool. RB sent me the link. At the time, I didn't bother because the stuff it tests is the stuff Dots (first ebook from RB) covers. It might have gone further, dunno. Really though, at this point it would be best to assume it's an SLD +/or a developmental delay (or similar things that you would need psych testing to pinpoint) and intervene. There is a growing market for tiered math intervention materials in the US, so it would be interesting to see what the charter might provide if you had an IEP. You could flat out ask them what math intervention materials they have access to. For instance, https://www.mathlearningcenter.org Bridges math is one of the most expensive math intervention programs and it's what the swankiest schools in our area are using. If I had access to that, I'd use it in a heartbeat, mercy. It's like $1k a level, so only schools can afford that. There are some other products now, also aimed at schools, that have intervention level materials.

Here's the thing. You're saying she has had no exposure to fractions?? That's mindboggling, and that may be because CLE is old. Not meaning to knock it, but my ds has an IEP and his goals are all keyed to Common Core. So, unfortunately (and I'm just meaning to be a reality check here and push you to the edge), she's probably MUCH more behind than you realize. Common Core, properly done, actually has good mathematical thinking. When I look at materials keyed to CC, they're a lot like Ronit Bird. My ds can slide right into CC curriculum because of what we've done with RB. And yes, absolutely we've done fractions. She should have been doing them ages ago. 

People all have their ways of sorting things out, so I'm not trying to knock yours. Actually though, what was that STAR test? Was it state mandated testing? Was it on the computer? My ds was tested both with state required testing this spring (finishing 3rd per his IEP) and the WIAT (no ceiling achievement testing with a psych) I think as part of his psych testing. He tested lower on the state testing and more where we expected on the psych testing. I think with the state testing you have differences in curriculum (CC vs. say CLE) showing up, issues with the testing modality itself (lots of reading, maybe some inattention or rushing or not being used to testing that way), immaturity (rushing), etc. 

What you might do, if you haven't done this yet, is administer some placement tests for CLE (yes, the one you're already using), MUS, and maybe something kind of traditional. I wish BJU gave out a placement test for free instead of charging. That would let you confirm what was going on and see whether it was curriculum differences or the testing modality or what. 

I think your own gut is really on here when you say she has conceptual issues and something you can't pinpoint. Good psych evals could help sort that out. I'm not sure the logic on waiting. Some people think the IEP process and evals hurt the psyche of the dc, but this dc is already discouraged and wanting to know why it's hard. The real question is whether the evals through the charter (which probably get referred to the ps in district of residence) will be any good. They just vary. But as a starting point, they could be helpful, sure! You don't know basic things like whether it's IQ, whether she needs glasses. 

I've had friends in this position, and some chose not to eval. Personally I'm in favor of evals, because they give you information. But people who don't decide to eval just have to keep trying things and keeping very focused on the dc, on success, on creating a positive environment. It definitely doesn't work to work against the child. RB has a fractions ebook, but you might need to back up to Dots. I can tell you that when I use RB I try to APPLY concepts as much as I can. So as the understanding of the dot patterns solidifies, transfer them over to written equations and then begin drilling. She has a really terrific free Card Games ebook that we then used to extend those Dots concepts into +/- numbers. So we did that and then started writing equations. I used the RightStart fractions puzzle and began playing fractions war, slowly building concepts. Once you can do it with the tools and games, extend to written, asking if she could write an equation for the play you just made. Ask if she could write that equation ANOTHER way! Then you're doing Common Core. Common Core wants them to be more flexible with the math. It's stuff you can do using simple $10 ebooks if you realize what you're trying to do. 

Some kids have issues with generalizing, where they understand a concept with one manipulative or curriculum but then don't even seem to know it for the next. My ds does that. For a situation like that, you have to teach the same concept in more settings, with more tools, till it generalizes in the brain. So I used to say I needed 2+2 to be 4 EVERYWHERE, not just with dots. I needed it to be 4 with temperature and in the car with clocks and at home with clocks and with a tape measurer and a ruler. So it's something to look at with your dc, whether her brain is figuring out that that concept is true everywhere. It also lets you see how to carry RB across all the topics you need to cover, because you say do +/- numbers with cards then you do them with time then you do them with measuring then you do them with thermometers and so on.

Edited September 27, 2018 by PeterPan

[KrissiK]

Oh no, she’s had exposure to fractions, though even the basics get her confused. I’m talking more along the lines of adding and subtracting unlike fractions,  greatest common multiples, etc.

And here’s something that’s interesting about her thought processes... she’s taking piano lessons. She’s doing well, but she cannot read music. I have to write the letter names down for her and then she can play the song.

[PeterPan]

My dd had quirks with piano playing too. She could read the note and say the name OR she could play the note when told the name, but she could not read and play. The OT found she had midline issues, and later we realized she had significant retained reflexes. The midline issues plus processing speed probably tanked her. We did some metronome work using Heathermomster's hack instructions, and we made sure to do the activities across the midline. She had a growth spurt around then (7th-8th ish) and it all seemed to come together. She didn't become a virtuoso, but she got to where she could, with difficulty, slog through simple pieces (Les Mis for beginners with simplified notes, that kind of thing) enough that she enjoyed it for herself. 

A school OT won't typically bother to test for retained reflexes and might not even bother with midline issues, even though they affect vision, etc. The school OT is only looking at what prevents the dc from accessing their education. You can either go private for that eval (or hope you luck out, good luck on that) or just google and find the tests yourself. You might do just as well looking on youtube for the tests and looking into midline activities. I got the BalavisX manual inexpensively to use with my ds. Heathermomster's metronome work (which you can adapt to emphasize midline) will cost you nothing. I'm all about the free, lol. 

The processing speed is something you find out through psych evals, which the school will do for you for free. What I've found is that even if the school evals aren't the best, we usually learn something. Even if they aren't testing everything (due to funding and time restraints), you can pick their brains. That's why I find evals worthwhile, because I always learn stuff. I ask a lot of questions. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by PeterPan

[Tessamae]

Not to derail this thread, but I was wondering where the Ronit Bird ebooks can be found. I see the print versions on Amazon.  Are we talking about Kindle versions of those or something else?  Thanks for any guidance!

[domestic_engineer]

56 minutes ago, Tessamae said:

Not to derail this thread, but I was wondering where the Ronit Bird ebooks can be found. I see the print versions on Amazon.  Are we talking about Kindle versions of those or something else?  Thanks for any guidance!

http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/

[Tessamae]

53 minutes ago, domestic_engineer said:

http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/

Thank you so much!!

[PeterPan]

13 hours ago, Tessamae said:

Not to derail this thread, but I was wondering where the Ronit Bird ebooks can be found. I see the print versions on Amazon.  Are we talking about Kindle versions of those or something else?  Thanks for any guidance!

Yeah, I don't think she has done ebooks. They're in the apple, ibooks platform, meaning you need an apple device, sigh. They're wonderful though, with embedded videos demonstrating how she does the activities. Even if you have to borrow a device, visit a friend once a week, whatever, they're worth the effort.

[Tessamae]

17 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

Yeah, I don't think she has done ebooks. They're in the apple, ibooks platform, meaning you need an apple device, sigh. They're wonderful though, with embedded videos demonstrating how she does the activities. Even if you have to borrow a device, visit a friend once a week, whatever, they're worth the effort.

Thank you!  I see them now. Thankfully we have access to Apple devices. They look great!

[PeterPan]

22 minutes ago, Tessamae said:

Thank you!  I see them now. Thankfully we have access to Apple devices. They look great!

I don't know which you're starting with, but we did the Positive/Negative Turnovers from her free Card Games Ebook after doing the Dots ebook, and that was just stellar for us. We keep small whiteboards (small and also 17X20) near us when we play, so we can write equations for one of the plays/moves. That's how we've transitioned from the manips to written. Worked really well for us. I just kept asking hey could you write that another way, could we write it another way, till we had all the iterations possible.  

[Tessamae]

48 minutes ago, PeterPan said:

I don't know which you're starting with, but we did the Positive/Negative Turnovers from her free Card Games Ebook after doing the Dots ebook, and that was just stellar for us. We keep small whiteboards (small and also 17X20) near us when we play, so we can write equations for one of the plays/moves. That's how we've transitioned from the manips to written. Worked really well for us. I just kept asking hey could you write that another way, could we write it another way, till we had all the iterations possible.  

Thanks for the tips.  We will be starting with Dots next week!

[prairiewindmomma]

FWIW, as mentioned above, CLE does do fractions from the beginning. The main fractions work (improper numbers, complex computation with fractions, etc) begins in the 500s series.

When you line it up with common core, there are some minor “timing” differences—some things are covered “early” and some are covered slightly “late” but if you stay with the program through the 600 series it all gets done. There is more of an emphasis on real life problem solving than most cc programs but there isn’t as much flexibility of thinking about math as there is in, say, Singapore math.