WWYD? Retake Calc?

[MomOfABunch]

Last year, DS1 took AOPS Calculus. He did the online class and did well in it. However, he did not score well on the AP exam. He says he would prefer to take the AOPS online class a second time take the exam again.  This makes perfect sense to me and I support this plan, but I am concerned how a repeated class will look on his transcript.

Thoughts? Ideas? He is an 11th grader this year. 

[regentrude]

I would do something else for math, and then some targeted test prep for the AP exam. AoPS is not designed to prepare students for the specific AP exam, so I  am not sure that retaking the same class would lead to different results, since he already mastered the material in that format

 

[EKS]

I would only list calculus once on his transcript even if you decide to repeat it.  If he took calculus in 10th grade, surely you have a course from middle school that you can bring up. 

[Arcadia]

DS13 did not score well in homework for the AOPS calculus class in 7th grade but had a 5 for AP Calculus BC.  What does your son want to do for math?

Regarding the exam, DS13 did test prep with me as we are seasoned test takers and used to giving examiners what they want. 

[chiguirre]

Another option is labeling last year Calc AB and this year Calc BC. There are B&M schools that do this. I do think it's best to take a different calc this year and to do test specific prep for the AP. Another option is the Calc 1 CLEP exam that will give him credit for first semester calc at many schools. There are test prep materials for this available as well.

[8filltheheart]

Before he makes the decision on retaking the AoPS course in order to score higher on the , how did he do in the actual AP exam, how did he do in the actual course?  It could be that his self=prep for the exam was inadequate.   Or it could be that he didn't actually master the fundamentals of calculus.  How was his AB subscore?  (Was it high enough to DE in a cal 2 course? )

I think that chiguirre's suggestion is solid.  He could repeat the entire cal 1/2 sequence this yr and label last yr as AB and this yr as BC without any questioning at all b/c 1000s of ps offer the course sequence that way.

One option that might work is Thinkwell's cal courses.  My dd only used their cal 1 course, but she scored an almost perfect score on the CLEP cal exam.  She felt she completely mastered cal 1 topics.  If he used Thinkwell, he would still need to prep for the exam since I believe the exam has changed slightly since then.  But, he should be familiar with the format now.

[MomOfABunch]

20 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Another option is labeling last year Calc AB and this year Calc BC. There are B&M schools that do this. I do think it's best to take a different calc this year and to do test specific prep for the AP. Another option is the Calc 1 CLEP exam that will give him credit for first semester calc at many schools. There are test prep materials for this available as well.

 

Would anyone question him taking a Calc AB class and the BC exam?  CLEP is a good idea, we’ll look into that. 

[MomOfABunch]

19 hours ago, 8FillTheHeart said:

Before he makes the decision on retaking the AoPS course in order to score higher on the , how did he do in the actual AP exam, how did he do in the actual course?  It could be that his self=prep for the exam was inadequate.   Or it could be that he didn't actually master the fundamentals of calculus.  How was his AB subscore?  (Was it high enough to DE in a cal 2 course? )

I think that chiguirre's suggestion is solid.  He could repeat the entire cal 1/2 sequence this yr and label last yr as AB and this yr as BC without any questioning at all b/c 1000s of ps offer the course sequence that way.

One option that might work is Thinkwell's cal courses.  My dd only used their cal 1 course, but she scored an almost perfect score on the CLEP cal exam.  She felt she completely mastered cal 1 topics.  If he used Thinkwell, he would still need to prep for the exam since I believe the exam has changed slightly since then.  But, he should be familiar with the format now.

 

The biggest issue was that the AOPS course he took ended in December and the exam was in May. While he had exam prep materials he worked on between Dec to May, he thinks the time between when the course ended and when he took the test was the problem.  

His AB subscore was 3, which is high enough to count for our local CC.  That is an option we could look into. I hesitate because it would be his first DE course. 

 

[MomOfABunch]

20 hours ago, Arcadia said:

DS13 did not score well in homework for the AOPS calculus class in 7th grade but had a 5 for AP Calculus BC.  What does your son want to do for math?

Regarding the exam, DS13 did test prep with me as we are seasoned test takers and used to giving examiners what they want. 

 

He wants to go into a STEM field, maybe even major in math, so solid mastery of Calc is important. 

What test prep materials did you use?

[Roadrunner]

May I ask how he did in AOPS calculus class?

 

 

This thread is making me very nervous because we will likely be in your shoes soon. My kid refuses to take PAH course. 

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, MomOfABunch said:

What test prep materials did you use?

 

DS13’s AoPS calculus online course was Sep 30, 2016 - Apr 7, 2017 so it was still quite fresh in his mind.

We used Barron’s for MCQ section and the CollegeBoard FRQs for the FRQ section. We went with Barron’s because DS13 favors Barron’s for test prep. Princeton Review would have worked as well. 

I borrowed Barron’s from the library and it should be this edition as it was new on the shelves then.

https://www.amazon.com/Barrons-Calculus-14th-David-Bock/dp/1438008597

We used the 2016 and 2015 FRQs from CollegeBoard since my kid took the 2017 exam. Now they have the 2017 and 2018 FRQs posted with scoring guidelines on this link. We looked at the Chief Readsr Report and Sample Responses as well on the link https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-calculus-bc/exam?course=ap-calculus-bc

We also use this full length test from the 2012 administration from CollegeBoard for stamina practice of doing the entire exam in one sitting.

https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-calculus-bc-practice-exam-2012.pdf

He prep for the calculus exam on May 9th, 2017 after he finished the AP Computer Science A exam on May 2nd, 2017. So he spent six days on test prep since we didn’t prep the day before the exam. After that he prep for his SAT Math 2 and SAT Physics subject test in June 2017.

What my kid said was that the AP Physics C courses he did last year kept his calculus skills from going rusty since he didn’t take any calculus course last year but is taking multivariable calculus this year. 

Our take from going through the scoring guidelines was that the AP grader is looking for certain working and he would lose points if he doesn’t give the working they wanted. The comments on the Chief Reader report was also useful as it said where kids tend to lose points or misread the question. 

[Mabelen]

22 hours ago, chiguirre said:

Another option is labeling last year Calc AB and this year Calc BC. There are B&M schools that do this. I do think it's best to take a different calc this year and to do test specific prep for the AP. Another option is the Calc 1 CLEP exam that will give him credit for first semester calc at many schools. There are test prep materials for this available as well.

Yes, my daughter's school has this sequence: AP Cal AB, then AP Calc BC. Each one is a full year class, i. e. a three trimester class.

[MomOfABunch]

1 hour ago, Roadrunner said:

May I ask how he did in AOPS calculus class?

 

 

This thread is making me very nervous because we will likely be in your shoes soon. My kid refuses to take PAH course. 

He did well in it.  It was a challenging course and since he’s beyond me in math, he worked with a tutor a few times a week. The tutor reported that he was understanding the material and he scored well in the class. We never asked for an end grade report, but his overall score was green, if that makes sense.  

I think the less than satisfactory AP score was more a reflection of not keeping the material fresh between Dec and the exam in May. 

He wants to retake the AOPS course; he said that there were several people in the class with him that were not taking it for the first time. Before the scores came back, he was going to do linear algebra, but now I’m not sure what to do for math. CLEP may be a way to show mastery of the material and get the credits, but as a possible math major is having a good Calc AP score important?  

I’m thinking out loud here, but I think the options are:

1. Calc again this year, BC AP exam. Label last year AB and this year BC. No other math. 

2. Calc again this year, BC AP exam. Label last year BC and leave off transcript this year.  Work through AOPS counting and probability and/or number theory books.

3. Study and pass the Calc CLEP and do linear alg as planned. Don’t retake the AP exam. 

Thoughts?  I my degrees are in music and education. I’m struggling to advise this kid how to proceed with higher math. Thanks so much for helping me think this through. 

[Roadrunner]

1 minute ago, MomOfABunch said:

He did well in it.  It was a challenging course and since he’s beyond me in math, he worked with a tutor a few times a week. The tutor reported that he was understanding the material and he scored well in the class. We never asked for an end grade report, but his overall score was green, if that makes sense.  

I think the less than satisfactory AP score was more a reflection of not keeping the material fresh between Dec and the exam in May. 

He wants to retake the AOPS course; he said that there were several people in the class with him that were not taking it for the first time. Before the scores came back, he was going to do linear algebra, but now I’m not sure what to do for math. CLEP may be a way to show mastery of the material and get the credits, but as a possible math major is having a good Calc AP score important?  

I’m thinking out loud here, but I think the options are:

1. Calc again this year, BC AP exam. Label last year AB and this year BC. No other math. 

2. Calc again this year, BC AP exam. Label last year BC and leave off transcript this year.  Work through AOPS counting and probability and/or number theory books.

3. Study and pass the Calc CLEP and do linear alg as planned. Don’t retake the AP exam. 

Thoughts?  I my degrees are in music and education. I’m struggling to advise this kid how to proceed with higher math. Thanks so much for helping me think this through. 

 

I am no help, but I know if you kid wants to go into STEM and is looking for selective schools, he needs to retake that exam. If he were my kid, I would probably force him into PAH Calculus course since it is geared toward exam prep and since he already had Calculus on a more theoretical level with aops. And yes, I would label Calculus 1 for last year and Calculus 2 for this year (a semester of college course spread throughout the year). Of if you can swing for a tutor, I would let him take whatever math he wants to take next (linear algebra), but pay a tutor to keep prepping for BC exam throughout the year. The reason I am not for repeating aops course is he will get the same problem set that he already did. He might as well just work through the book himself. 

 

Our case is a little different. I have a kid that isn't best at focusing. He is good at math, but has nobody at home to help him to test prep at all. This is also the kid who has thrived with aops and refuses to consider anything else.

I am considering, AOPS + barron's book and other test prep materials (Kathy says that's enough). 

PAH course with aops book at home (this looks very appealing to me after this thread ? ). 

 

 

[Arcadia]

16 minutes ago, MomOfABunch said:

He wants to retake the AOPS course; he said that there were several people in the class with him that were not taking it for the first time. Before the scores came back, he was going to do linear algebra, but now I’m not sure what to do for math. 

 

I have no idea about CLEP as UC (California) doesn’t take CLEP so we didn’t choose that path and went for AP since all the state universities (UCs and CSUs) would take those.

Which Linear Algebra course did your son originally intend to do? DS13 did Linear Algebra with CTY JHU self paced as we were not using it as a math credit and he thinks he is weak in Linear Algebra. So taking it as a not for credit course makes sense in our scenario. The prerequisite for CTY Linear Algebra is “Successful completion of AP Calculus BC or equivalent; completion of Multivariable Calculus preferred” https://cty.jhu.edu/online/courses/mathematics/linear_algebra.html

He is now taking Multivariable Differential Calculus with Stanford ULO and the prerequisite for Multivariable Calculus and Linear Algebra is “Calculus A, B, C or equivalent.” (https://ulo.stanford.edu/mathematics) He would likely retake Linear Algebra with them for high school math credit as he intends to double major in math and computer science. 

For the online AoPS Calculus class, we really preferred the September to April class because it ends in April. DS13 found the AoPS intermediate number theory challenging but fun. He took that in July 2017 https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/intermediate-numbertheory

DS13 is taking AoPS WOOT course for fun for a second year so my opinion is that if your son wants to retake the AoPS calculus course, let him retake. 

[MomOfABunch]

28 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

 

I am no help, but I know if you kid wants to go into STEM and is looking for selective schools, he needs to retake that exam. If he were my kid, I would probably force him into PAH Calculus course since it is geared toward exam prep and since he already had Calculus on a more theoretical level with aops. And yes, I would label Calculus 1 for last year and Calculus 2 for this year (a semester of college course spread throughout the year). Of if you can swing for a tutor, I would let him take whatever math he wants to take next (linear algebra), but pay a tutor to keep prepping for BC exam throughout the year. The reason I am not for repeating aops course is he will get the same problem set that he already did. He might as well just work through the book himself. 

 

Our case is a little different. I have a kid that isn't best at focusing. He is good at math, but has nobody at home to help him to test prep at all. This is also the kid who has thrived with aops and refuses to consider anything else.

I am considering, AOPS + barron's book and other test prep materials (Kathy says that's enough). 

PAH course with aops book at home (this looks very appealing to me after this thread ? ). 

 

 

That makes sense. Would it look strange at all to retake the AP exam without listing a Calc course for that year?

[Roadrunner]

24 minutes ago, MomOfABunch said:

That makes sense. Would it look strange at all to retake the AP exam without listing a Calc course for that year?

 

I wouldn’t think so, but hopefully others will chime in. 

[regentrude]

1 hour ago, MomOfABunch said:

That makes sense. Would it look strange at all to retake the AP exam without listing a Calc course for that year?

Can't imagine why it should. Test scores are sent separately anyway, so I  would be surprised if a busy admissions person even bothered to correlate them with classes taken when.

[MomOfABunch]

1 hour ago, regentrude said:

Can't imagine why it should. Test scores are sent separately anyway, so I  would be surprised if a busy admissions person even bothered to correlate them with classes taken when.

That would make sense. Just curious, how  does it look if you take an exam and score poorly and take it gain the next year and (hopefully) score better?  

[Roadrunner]

And do both scores show up or just the better one? 

[Arcadia]

27 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

And do both scores show up or just the better one? 

 

Scores show up in chronological order on DS13’s unofficial score report. So I would assume both scores would show up. You could confirm with Mirabillis as her oldest son took the AP exam for one subject twice (2017 and 2018) to better the score.

You can use score withholding though to withhold the lower score when sending the score report to college. 

https://apscore.collegeboard.org/scores/score-reporting/

Edited August 27, 2018 by Arcadia

[8filltheheart]

I doubt PAH has any seats left open. CLEP only covers cal 1. I think both options are not good ones.

I am not sure just how well he really understood AoPS with a 3 on the AB section. Repeating AoPS might be an option, but my recommendation would be to not do it online but independently and do it in conjunction with a more traditional approach. 

He could work through DO cal AB first semester self-graded and only doing review and work through AoPS challenge problems. 

Not sure what to recommend for BC. Thinkwell. OHS. Couresra.  Does Chalkdust offer a BC course?

[Roadrunner]

PAH is worth the try at least. It doesn’t say that it’s full. Who knows. 

[8filltheheart]

52 minutes ago, Roadrunner said:

PAH is worth the try at least. It doesn’t say that it’s full. Who knows. 

Definitely worth checking into it. If they do have openings that would just be very different from a few yrs ago when they were full quickly after opening for registration. If they do have an opening, it does sound like the best option. 

[MomOfABunch]

2 hours ago, Arcadia said:

 

Scores show up in chronological order on DS13’s unofficial score report. So I would assume both scores would show up. You could confirm with Mirabillis as her oldest son took the AP exam for one subject twice (2017 and 2018) to better the score.

You can use score withholding though to withhold the lower score when sending the score report to college. 

https://apscore.collegeboard.org/scores/score-reporting/

I didn’t know about score withholding. Maybe that’s what we should do. 

[Roadrunner]

2 minutes ago, MomOfABunch said:

I didn’t know about score withholding. Maybe that’s what we should do. 

 

And there seems to be an option for cancellation as well. Although it isn’t clear to me if the score can be cancelled after a student receives the score. I hope it is.

[MomOfABunch]

Just now, Roadrunner said:

 

And there seems to be an option for cancellation as well. Although it isn’t clear to me if the score can be cancelled after a student receives the score. I hope it is.

I’m going to call and find out tomorrow.

 

[Arcadia]

12 hours ago, MomOfABunch said:

His AB subscore was 3, which is high enough to count for our local CC.  That is an option we could look into. I hesitate because it would be his first DE course. 

 

Does he need a weighted GPA for scholarships for any of the colleges he might be interested in?

If he does, I would be inclined to label the 2017/2018 AoPS Calculus class as an AP Calculus BC class. Then take Calculus 2 for dual enrollment as dual enrollment class has a higher weight for weighted GPA calculations. 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/calculus “This course is approved by the College Board as an AP Calculus BC class,”

ETA:

DS12 is using Thinkwell for Calculus. He wants to major in engineering so AoPS is fun enrichment but not suitable as his math spine since it is a time suck for him. He rather spend his leisure time on science.

Edited August 27, 2018 by Arcadia

[Arcadia]

1 hour ago, MomOfABunch said:

I’m going to call and find out tomorrow.

 

 

From CollegeBoard https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-score-cancellation.pdf

“2017-18
AP Score Cancellation Form
Canceling your AP® Exam score permanently deletes it—it cannot be reinstated at a later time. Scores may be canceled at any time. However, for scores not to be sent to the college indicated on your AP answer sheet, AP Services must receive your request by June 15 of the year you took the AP Exam. Once you request a cancellation, the score will never be available to you, and it will never be listed on any future score reports. (Archived scores cannot be canceled.) There is no fee for this service; however, your exam fee is not refunded.”

If your son is using the Calculus AB subscore for dual enrollment placement, you might want to cancel his Calculus BC exam score later. 

[MomOfABunch]

41 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

Does he need a weighted GPA for scholarships for any of the colleges he might be interested in?

If he does, I would be inclined to label the 2017/2018 AoPS Calculus class as an AP Calculus BC class. Then take Calculus 2 for dual enrollment as dual enrollment class has a higher weight for weighted GPA calculations. 

https://artofproblemsolving.com/school/course/calculus “This course is approved by the College Board as an AP Calculus BC class,”

ETA:

DS12 is using Thinkwell for Calculus. He wants to major in engineering so AoPS is fun enrichment but not suitable as his math spine since it is a time suck for him. He rather spend his leisure time on science.

Weighted GPA is not a point I had thought of!  I’m so glad you ladies are here to help me think this through!!

His math progression would then look like this:

Before HS: Algebra 1, Algebra 2, Geometry, 9th: Precalc with Trig, 10th: AP Calc BC, AP Statistics,11th: DE Calc 2, 12th: DE

 

Edited August 27, 2018 by MomOfABunch

[MomOfABunch]

8 minutes ago, Arcadia said:

 

From CollegeBoard https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/pdf/ap-score-cancellation.pdf

“2017-18
AP Score Cancellation Form
Canceling your AP® Exam score permanently deletes it—it cannot be reinstated at a later time. Scores may be canceled at any time. However, for scores not to be sent to the college indicated on your AP answer sheet, AP Services must receive your request by June 15 of the year you took the AP Exam. Once you request a cancellation, the score will never be available to you, and it will never be listed on any future score reports. (Archived scores cannot be canceled.) There is no fee for this service; however, your exam fee is not refunded.”

If your son is using the Calculus AB subscore for dual enrollment placement, you might want to cancel his Calculus BC exam score later. 

Good point.

[...................]

I am late into the discussion, but we did not have success with AOPS as a main curriciulum.  When we were using it as a supplement it was amazing, and opened some brain pathways that had definitely been closed.

However, my son had to re-do a lot of the algebra he did with AOPS and instead use Saxon.  My son used Saxon from 1st through Algebra2 and then went straight to CC for Pre-Calc.  After only having done Saxon Alg 2, and with absolutely no prep or studying of any kind, scored a 720 on the math for the SAT, which admittedly isn't as high as he needs to be a STEM major, but it's good. He's a straight A student after three college math courses included Calc 1 and now Calc 2, and has had no problems whatsoever.

I know it feels like AOPS is the best or the only choice but AOPS has its drawbacks.  Not every kid thrives with every program.

I would have him take a PA Homeschoolers AP Calc course, if they use a different book than AOPS. 

Another idea is to enroll him in Calc 1 at community college.  Our CC uses Pearson's WebAssign and between that and some really great teachers, he has had an excellent experience.  Do look at the books used as well as check out the teachers on Rate My Professor.  But we have found the experience to be very enjoyable for my son. More fun than being at home alone with a book, and gets the same credits as an AP class would.  It may be too late to get him in for the fall but you could get started registering him for Spring..

?

[MomOfABunch]

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. We decided to do Calc 2 as a DE in the Spring along with ongoing AP prep and retake the exam in May. Hopefully it goes much better this time, but either way he’ll have the credits he needs.