Elder parent care - Where to start?

[skimomma]

I know there have been a lot of threads on this topic lately.  I'm hoping to get some advice from people who have been through parts of what I think we may be facing.  This is super long.  Sorry!

Background:

My mom is 80 years old.  My father passed away 25 years ago and she has been single ever since.  Several years ago, we finally convinced her to sell her large house (complete with hoarding) and she now lives in a senior living complex with single floor townhouses in which the residents live fully independently.  The complex is run by a larger company that also has assisted living and nursing home facilities.  My mom made the arrangements for the funding on her own.  I do not know all of the details but I do know she pays monthly "rent" but also had a large down payment and this is all supposed to somehow come into play if/when more supervised care is needed.  She has been unwilling to discuss the details with me.

Mom lives ten hours from me.  We are not close and never have been.  There is no bad blood at all, we just have very different personalities and interests.  I moved out to go to school 25 years ago and have never lived closer than 10 hours since that time.  I have one much younger sister.  She used to be closer to my mom and more involved in her life but married, moved across the country, and had children.  Sister now has a complicated family situation (as in lots of little kids and babies) which makes travel to my mom nearly impossible from a cost and logistics standpoint.  I visit about twice a year.  Neither of us have the financial means to be of much help to my mom.  We both live paycheck to paycheck.  

Mom has always been very private about her medical and financial situation, especially to me.  I know she is struggling financially but I have no idea to what degree.  I have also observed that she is having memory problems which are rapidly worsening over the last few months.  She is on many medications for heart disease, diabetes, and other common ailments.  I have no details about this at all.  She has been, and still is, unwilling to discuss anything medical with me.  She used to be more open with my sister, but has become more private within the last few years.

I have some local relatives that are still involved with my mom.  These are primarily aunts and uncles, all older than my mom and all dealing with their own aging issues.  I am not close with any of them.  I don't even have their phone numbers.  These are inlaws to my mom and she does socialize with them occasionally but they are not close or in any position to help her.  Mom is active in her church.  From what I can gather, she volunteers and attends services but is not close with anyone specific.  She is "friends" with some people in her complex but, again, I gather that these are not close friendships.  Mom is one of the few residents who still drives so she is in demand to help others and she was a nurse so she helps others with their medical questions.  My mom is a little.....uh.....annoying.  She talks over people, repeats stories (well before the memory issues started), and is generally difficult to be around.  The hoarding makes visiting her at her home very uncomfortable.  She does not have a mean bone in her body and has expressed confusion as to why people tend to shy away from her.  She has never had many close friends.

She is close with one couple and that friendship goes back 30+ years.  This couple is slightly older than her and quite well-off financially.  They have no living family at all.  The wife has a lot of medical problems but she is still quite sharp mentally.  I have known them most of my life and am friendly.  But we are not close.  Any attempt to gather info about my mom from them has been unsuccessful.  The seem to be very protective of my mom and suspicious of our motives when we have tried to get medical or financial info about my mom from them.  From the outside, this probably looks "suspicious," like perhaps they are taking advantage of her.  You'll have to trust that I just don't see that as the case.  If anything, sister and I have long suspected that they are helping my mom out financially.  They display some of the same "unique" qualities (including hoarding) as my mom and do not seem to have any other close friends.  

Current situation:

This is where I need some direction.

Mom has been getting increasingly confused and forgetful over the last year or so.  She has always been bad about remembering things in general and has a terrible habit of repeating stories, often extremely long and boring stories.  In general, she seemed to be doing OK with keeping track of her own affairs but could never quite remember what I do for a living.....or dh or sister.  She has never been able to remember how old her grandchildren are or what they are into.  I call her every two weeks and every. single. time. she asks my if my BIL still lives in Wyoming.  He has never lived in Wyoming.  That sort of thing has been just normal up until now.  Recently, she has started forgetting bigger things.  I visited her in April and in my last phone conversation with her, she had no recollection of the visit, for instance.  For the first time ever, she completely failed to acknowledge my dd's birthday.  Last Christmas, she gave dd board books for a gift.  Dd was 14.  Things are going downhill.

Sister and I talked and decided it was time to start addressing this head-on.  That April visit was the last time sister thought she might be able to travel to mom's for the foreseeable future, so we planned to visit together to assess the situation and try to figure out what we could about mom's medical and financial situation.  We know absolutely nothing about either.  Mom has evaded all previous attempts for us to gather info on either topic.  We suspect she is either embarrassed or hiding something from us.  We aimed to get some very basic info like if she has an updated (since my father's death) will and if someone has been listed as POA for medical or financial decisions.  We were hoping also so be able to get more financial info.  We are not even sure she is paying her bills!

This turned into a spectacular failure ending in a wild goose chase.  Mom did tell us that her will had been updated.  She could not remember what it said or if she listed anyone as POA.  So we asked to see a copy.  She said her only copy was in her safe deposit box.  OK.  She got the key and I put her in my car and asked her which bank.  Four hours, 10 banks, and several bathroom stops later, we managed to figure out WHAT bank had a box in her name.  We also discovered the bill had not been paid in many years and that the key she had was not, in fact, the correct key for this box.  The cost to drill out the box (since there is no key) and pay the back rent is over $1000.  We are not sure if a copy of the will is indeed in this box or what else might be in there.  But we do know that none of us has $1000.  There is also a very good chance that there is another box somewhere because the key she does have is indeed for a safe deposit box, we just don't know whose or what bank.  Sigh.  So.  If there is a will, we do not have a copy, don't know that mom actually has one, and have no idea where to find it.  Mom cannot remember the attorneys she used and our attempts to find a copy or any paperwork that could give us direction was unsuccessful.  Remember that mom is a hoarder so finding ANYTHING in her living space is difficult.  But we did give it a very good try.

So, that's my first question.  Any idea how to go about finding the will under these circumstances?  And what do we do if we highly suspect one is out there but never find it?  We are worried that she will need to put that POA into service soon and we have no idea who it might be!  Is there some sort of way to search that I am not thinking about?  Do wills get filed somewhere accessible to the public?  Surely people die all the time where no copy of a will is easy to access.

Mom does have someone that is managing her investments.  There was considerable insurance money and other investments when my dad died.  Whoever is doing this management doles out some sort of monthly allowance and they meet periodically to go over her assets and set a "budget" so she knows what she can afford.  I assume (and seriously hope) that long-term care is discussed with this person.  I do know she has long-term care insurance but I also know that those often have many loopholes and there is a possibility it may have lapsed if she is not on top of payments.  No idea.  We could not find any paperwork on this in her living space.  My question is, would it be inappropriate to ask for a meeting with this person and my mom next time I am in town to get an idea of her financial situation?  It will require talking my mom into it.  But before I even attempt that, is this a thing people do?  Maybe this person has a copy of the will?  Is that a thing?

Longer term I am very concerned about mom's long term care with all of her children living so far away and in the thick is parenting and careers.  I would like to move her to my location.  She is 100% adamant that she never wants to move from her area.  How can we ensure she is getting good care and WHO pays for it with us so far away?

Lastly, from those that are in the know, what else do I need to be thinking about here?  I am worried that our time might be very limited.  We may already be at the point where getting info/direction directly from my mom is off the table.  And if it isn't, that time might be very very soon.  Any tips for what I could do to make this easier would be helpful.

 

 

[fairfarmhand]

Rather than spend 1000 on the bank fees, can you just go ahead and rewrite the will and other documents? Perhaps it would be less expensive to start from scratch.

[skimomma]

5 minutes ago, fairfarmhand said:

Rather than spend 1000 on the bank fees, can you just go ahead and rewrite the will and other documents? Perhaps it would be less expensive to start from scratch.

 

We wondered about this.  If a new will is written, does that automatically supersede any existing will?  And can a new will be made if mom is not competent?  If no will is found and a new one is not made, what happens if medical decisions need to be made and she is not able to make them?  There us a good chance mom is not willing to have another will made.

[DoraBora]

This is so hard!  I sympathize...  

I have had the most success with my mother (about banking, decluttering, selling her big house, etc.) when I point out that it will be much easier for my siblings and me to honor her wishes if she helps us prepare for a time when she might need more help.  

You could try gently explaining to your mom that she can either make decisions and put things in order while she is relatively healthy or take the chance that you and your sister might one day have to take over and wade through unfamiliar paperwork to make her choices for her (choices that she probably won't like).

If you can get your mom to consult an attorney with you to make a new will, I agree that would probably be the best/most efficient course of action.

Every will I've ever read includes language that revokes any previous wills.

I don't know how it would be decided that someone isn't competent to make a new will, or who would decide that...  the attorney?  That issue may only come up if someone contests the will when it is probated.  If she hasn't been officially diagnosed with memory problems, I don't think she would be prevented from going forward with a new will.

It does seem in this case that time is of the essence...  

 

[DoraBora]

A will designates how property should be distributed following a person's death.  It has no bearing on medical decisions. 

It would be great if your mom would assign Power of Attorney, designating a trusted family member or friend to make financial and medical decisions on her behalf if she is unable to do so herself.  If she doesn't have a POA, it's likely that you and your sister as nearest next-of-kin would be consulted to make medical decisions for her.  (This probably varies by state.) 

If you can get her to agree to make a new will, she could have the POA drawn up at the same time.

... and yes, it is appropriate for you to meet with your mom and her financial adviser.  My dh, his dad, and his dad's adviser meet once a year to go over everything and dh has online access to his dad's financial statements.

[skimomma]

4 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

A will designates how property should be distributed following a person's death.  It has no bearing on medical decisions. 

It would be great if your mom would assign Power of Attorney, designating a trusted family member or friend to make financial and medical decisions on her behalf if she is unable to do so herself.  If she doesn't have a POA, it's likely that you and your sister as nearest next-of-kin would be consulted to make medical decisions for her.  (This probably varies by state.) 

If you can get her to agree to make a new will, she could have the POA drawn up at the same time.

... and yes, it is appropriate for you to meet with your mom and her financial adviser.  My dh, his dad, and his dad's adviser meet once a year to go over everything and dh has online access to his dad's financial statements.

 

Thanks.  She thought she had a "living will" which listed POA.  I vaguely remember her mentioning this 20+ years ago and I believe it was my sister at that time.  But none of us are sure and my sister does not want to be that person.  Dh and I are currently working on our will and the legal costs are already over $1K even though it is not super-complicated.  I'm guessing this will make my mom balk. And I don't think I can cough up another $1K right now.  I wonder if there is an easier way?

[skimomma]

39 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

This is so hard!  I sympathize...  

I have had the most success with my mother (about banking, decluttering, selling her big house, etc.) when I point out that it will be much easier for my siblings and me to honor her wishes if she helps us prepare for a time when she might need more help.  

You could try gently explaining to your mom that she can either make decisions and put things in order while she is relatively healthy or take the chance that you and your sister might one day have to take over and wade through unfamiliar paperwork to make her choices for her (choices that she probably won't like).

If you can get your mom to consult an attorney with you to make a new will, I agree that would probably be the best/most efficient course of action.

Every will I've ever read includes language that revokes any previous wills.

I don't know how it would be decided that someone isn't competent to make a new will, or who would decide that...  the attorney?  That issue may only come up if someone contests the will when it is probated.  If she hasn't been officially diagnosed with memory problems, I don't think she would be prevented from going forward with a new will.

It does seem in this case that time is of the essence...  

 

 

I am not sure what is going on, but  suspect mom is balking at all of this because she has lost control of where/what things are.  I am sure it is scary and I sense that she is embarrassed....perhaps even fearing a loss of freedom.  Any time I bring any of this up, she balks, changes the subject, and sometimes gets very angry.

[Catwoman]

Have you or your sister spoken with any of your mom’s siblings or close friends? If they are in regular contact with your mom and have been for years, they may have some information that could help you.

[Pen]

1) I would look at your fathers will if any if money your mom may or may not have came from him. 

2) Your Mom May be able to get free or low cost legal help via some legal or charitable service for seniors 

3) if her situation is relatively straightforward she may be able to use forms (on line, in packs at stationery supply) without a lawyer—but she has to want to. It would not be right for you to coerce her

she would have to be mentally competent, but if she is driving and able to help others with nursing knowledge, likely she has the needed mental capacity.    Though I guess that could be disputed based on board books for teen. Etc. 

It is possible that she doesn’t want you involved and driving here and there to banks etc is not due to mental problems but to not let you into her business. 

I suggest you begin by trying a genuine conversation about your concerns and let her tell you honestly if she just doesn’t want you involved. 

[Pen]

8 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

I am not sure what is going on, but  suspect mom is balking at all of this because she has lost control of where/what things are.  I am sure it is scary and I sense that she is embarrassed....perhaps even fearing a loss of freedom.  Any time I bring any of this up, she balks, changes the subject, and sometimes gets very angry.

 

In a conversation I would try to bring this possiblity out into the open. It is one explanation. Not wanting you involved is another, and there may be yet others. 

[skimomma]

Just now, Catwoman said:

Have you or your sister spoken with any of your mom’s siblings or close friends? If they are in regular contact with your mom and have been for years, they may have some information that could help you.

 

No living siblings or any relatives on her side except sister, me, and a step-uncle (of mom's) who no one has heard from in 20+ years.  He may not even be alive.  Her only close friends also have made it clear that they do not want to talk about mom's medical or financial situation with us.  They were not at all happy about our encouragement for my mom to sell her house and move into something more manageable.  She is a hoarder, as are the friends in question, and I think they saw that encouragement as an assault to the hoarding.  Or perhaps even thought we were trying to gain financially from the sale of the house (we did not) or that we were clipping mom's wings too early.

[Catwoman]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

1) I would look at your fathers will if any if money your mom may or may not have came from him. 

2) Your Mom May be able to get free or low cost legal help via some legal or charitable service for seniors 

3) if her situation is relatively straightforward she may be able to use forms (on line, in packs at stationery supply) without a lawyer—but she has to want to. It would not be right for you to coerce her

she would have to be mentally competent, but if she is driving and able to help others with nursing knowledge, likely she has the needed mental capacity.    Though I guess that could be disputed based on board books for teen. Etc. 

It is possible that she doesn’t want you involved and driving here and there to banks etc is not due to mental problems but to not let you into her business. 

I suggest you begin by trying a genuine conversation about your concerns and let her tell you honestly if she just doesn’t want you involved. 

 

I agree, Pen. If Mom doesn’t feel close to her daughters, perhaps she doesn’t want them involved in her financial matters.

 

[itsheresomewhere]

Any chance this senior housing complex has an attorney they have a deal with? I know a few here have some attorneys they work with and the attorneys  give residents a discount for using them.  This might be the cheapest way for a new will.  I suggest you run your mom’s name through the state’s unclaimed money 

[Catwoman]

1 minute ago, skimomma said:

 

No living siblings or any relatives on her side except sister, me, and a step-uncle (of mom's) who no one has heard from in 20+ years.  He may not even be alive.  Her only close friends also have made it clear that they do not want to talk about mom's medical or financial situation with us.  They were not at all happy about our encouragement for my mom to sell her house and move into something more manageable.  She is a hoarder, as are the friends in question, and I think they saw that encouragement as an assault to the hoarding.  Or perhaps even thought we were trying to gain financially from the sale of the house (we did not) or that we were clipping mom's wings too early.

 

Perhaps your mom has asked them not to discuss her personal matters with you. If the friends don’t think your mom trusts you and your sister, it makes sense that they would refuse to talk to you.

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, Pen said:

 

In a conversation I would try to bring this possiblity out into the open. It is one explanation. Not wanting you involved is another, and there may be yet others. 

 

Good point.

In all honesty, I would rather NOT be involved in any way.  But I think I will be required to and would like to make it as easy and non-traumatic as possible for all involved.

I realize the default is we know nothing and have nothing in order when we inevitably get the call from......I dunno....someone that she has hurt herself or is in the hospital or is getting evicted for non-payment or rent.  As someone without a lot of discretionary fund....or vacation time....the messier this is the harder it will be.

 

[Catwoman]

Just now, skimomma said:

 

Good point.

In all honesty, I would rather NOT be involved in any way.  But I think I will be required to and would like to make it as easy and non-traumatic as possible for all involved.

I realize the default is we know nothing and have nothing in order when we inevitably get the call from......I dunno....someone that she has hurt herself or is in the hospital or is getting evicted for non-payment or rent.  As someone without a lot of discretionary fund....or vacation time....the messier this is the harder it will be.

 

 

It’s a tough situation for sure. Do you think your mom might already have an arrangement with a trusted friend to handle things for her if something goes wrong? It sounds like she probably wouldn’t tell you about it even if she did, but it might be worth asking her about it. 

[Pen]

Aside from what someone raised in a thread I started about some states having filial duty laws, but which are apparently not being enforced, you don’t have to be involved. 

It would help if your mother would talk with you and tell you clearly if she wants you to be or not 

to be continued 

[skimomma]

4 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

I agree, Pen. If Mom doesn’t feel close to her daughters, perhaps she doesn’t want them involved in her financial matters.

 

 

That is entirely possible.  We do have an otherwise good relationship but she has never suggested that she expects us to help her in old age.  I just don't see who then will help, if/when she needs it.....which seems to be very soon, if not already.  We are not close, but I certainly do not want her to suffer and it appears that if anything is in place for her long-term care, know one seems to know what that is, including her.

[prairiewindmomma]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

 

We wondered about this.  If a new will is written, does that automatically supersede any existing will?  And can a new will be made if mom is not competent?  If no will is found and a new one is not made, what happens if medical decisions need to be made and she is not able to make them?  There us a good chance mom is not willing to have another will made.

I would contact the local division for services for the elderly and pick their brains for some resources. Usually there is an income based elder law attorney resource available.  You have a number of issues about: 1. whether she is truly intestate right now (without a will) since the current one is not discoverable, 2. whether she has the capacity to make a will, 3. what financial resources she has (these are traceable through tax filings, generally), 4. what financial liabilities she has.

These issues pop up all of the time...but they do need sorting.

[Pen]

...would help if you knew clearly if she wants you to be involved or not. If she does you can ask for things to be done in a way that will make that reasonable for you to manage. 

If she doesn’t and you get a call, then you can tell the caller that you don’t have a POA, and don’t know who if anyone does. 

[Pen]

3 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

That is entirely possible.  We do have an otherwise good relationship but she has never suggested that she expects us to help her in old age.  I just don't see who then will help, if/when she needs it.....which seems to be very soon, if not already.  We are not close, but I certainly do not want her to suffer and it appears that if anything is in place for her long-term care, know one seems to know what that is, including her.

 

Tell her that. 

[skimomma]

3 minutes ago, Catwoman said:

 

It’s a tough situation for sure. Do you think your mom might already have an arrangement with a trusted friend to handle things for her if something goes wrong? It sounds like she probably wouldn’t tell you about it even if she did, but it might be worth asking her about it. 

 

I would be hugely relieved if this were the case.  I doubt it is.  Mom evades topics but has always been honest with me as far as I can tell.  I cannot imagine that after witnessing how distressed and concerned sister and I were during our last visit that she would not have mentioned that she has a plan in place.  The only friend she has that I think is close enough to fill that role is the couple I have mentioned.  I would be perfectly happy and comfortable with them in that role.  I just want to know that someone is in that role.  However, they are 85+ years old with serious medical problems themselves, which is concerning to me.  

 

[Pen]

I suggest making any offer of help you feel capable of carrying out if she accepts.

For example, if she were to want you to have medical POA and you are willing and able, you can probably pick up a form for a few dollars some place like Office Max. 

[skimomma]

2 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

Tell her that. 

 

That is a good idea.  Maybe my mistake has been assuming that she wants her children to help her.  I should have asked this well before her memory started getting so bad.  But that ship has sailed:(  I just also assumed she would have told us if she did not want our help.....which is a bad assumption.

[Mary in VA]

Your mother should give someone, maybe you if she is agreeable, a General Durable Power of Attorney.  A POA only gives authority for someone to do what the grantor of the POA can do. So if the person giving the POA is incompetent, in a coma, etc, there is no power because they aren't in a position to do anything. So it needs to be durable, which means it continues while the person is unable to take action themselves.  

The medical authority is usually given in a separate document then the POA, often called an Advance Medical Directive, or something similar.

Of course it all depends on the law of the state your mother is in. The best solution would be to consult an attorney there about this. Prariewindmomma's advice is a good idea.

You could contact her long term care insurance company if you have the info to see if her premiums have been paid.  Our LTC required we provide the name and contact info for a family member to be contacted in the event the premiums lapsed. That way if we failed to pay them there is sort of a "fail safe" to insure that was not inadvertent.

[Pen]

You may also be able to get some information just by calling her residence, even as an inquiry as potentially interested in it yourself, and finding out what the arrangements there are as to what happens if residents need higher level of care etc. 

[DoraBora]

I agree that she must be willing and that it isn't right to coerce her.  I did wonder whether she has already made an arrangement with the older couple you mentioned.  They of course might become ill or die before she needs them.

I also think you are probably right that she is afraid of losing control or embarrassed if her finances are in a mess.  You may not want to be involved, but please don't underestimate how you might feel if no one steps up to help her when needed.  I'm not trying to apply guilt, but feelings of protectiveness and loyalty for family can be so strong.

A conversation about her wishes and whether she has spelled them out somewhere for someone is a good first step.  There is only so much you can do until she is willing to discuss these things with you.

[skimomma]

I feel like my ignorance of the basic language/terms is also not helping.  It sounds like mom needs at a minimum:

1. Advanced Medical Directive (thanks, Mary in VA!)

2.  Financial POA

3.  A will

In order for her to be adequately looked after if she is not able to look after herself and to ensure that her wishes are adhered to as to her assets and funeral arrangements.  Am I missing anything?

These all may exist, even if mom cannot locate them.  If she does indeed want help from her children, it looks like we need to either locate these documents or help her put new ones in place.  If she does not want help, we walk away and stop talking about it.  And in that case, should she become medically incapable of making her own decisions or dies and those documents cannot be found, we may be on the hook as next-of-kin?

 

[skimomma]

5 minutes ago, Mary in VA said:

 

You could contact her long term care insurance company if you have the info to see if her premiums have been paid.  Our LTC required we provide the name and contact info for a family member to be contacted in the event the premiums lapsed. That way if we failed to pay them there is sort of a "fail safe" to insure that was not inadvertent.

 

That is good to know.  Since we could not find any paperwork in her house about LTC, I am a bit concerned that she no longer has a policy at all.  She could not remember paying premiums recently but thought it might go through her financial advisor.  But it is good to know that there are fail-safes in place if she does indeed have a policy still.

[DoraBora]

Has anyone mentioned legal document kits?  There's a company called Legalzoom -- I hear them mentioned as sponsors on NPR all of the time -- that provides online, state-specific wills, POAs, etc.

[skimomma]

6 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

 

I also think you are probably right that she is afraid of losing control or embarrassed if her finances are in a mess.  You may not want to be involved, but please don't underestimate how you might feel if no one steps up to help her when needed.  I'm not trying to apply guilt, but feelings of protectiveness and loyalty for family can be so strong.

 

 

I'm already there.  I feel like putting our heads in the sand has already gotten us into this situation:(

[skimomma]

1 minute ago, DoraBora said:

Has anyone mentioned legal document kits?  There's a company called Legalzoom -- I hear them mentioned as sponsors on NPR all of the time -- that provides online, state-specific wills, POAs, etc.

 

I looked into this for our own docs.  I think I am of at least average intelligence but struggled to understand most of it.

[DoraBora]

Just now, skimomma said:

 

I'm already there.  I feel like putting our heads in the sand has already gotten us into this situation:(

Well, I hope you won't beat yourself up about it!  You live far away, and she hasn't been willing to discuss it.  (I don't mean to criticize your mother -- it's hard for her, too, I feel sure.)  It's good that you are trying your best to act in advance of a crisis!

[Pen]

2 hours ago, skimomma said:

d she now lives in a senior living complex with single floor townhouses in which the residents live fully independently.  The complex is run by a larger company that also has assisted living and nursing home facilities.

 

It sounds like she may have found and been able to afford a CCRC, in which case, her situation may be far more stable than you are anticipating and worrying about. 

 

Calling the senior living complex she is at may shed some light. 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Pen

[DoraBora]

1 minute ago, skimomma said:

 

I looked into this for our own docs.  I think I am of at least average intelligence but struggled to understand most of it.

Oh.  I haven't looked at their website.

The idea of seeking out an income based attorney through the Council on Aging, or elder services is a good one.

[skimomma]

With all of your great input, I am starting to develop a "plan."

First, I need to try to talk to mom when she seems the most with it and point-blank ask if she wants my help.  If not, I try to stop worrying and wait for the dreadful phone call which may or may not ever happen.  If she does, then on to the next step.

Next, ask her to allow me to accompany her to a meeting with her financial person to get an idea of the situation.  Advisor may have copies of existing docs, if they exist, or at least records of any that may exist.  Perhaps the name of any attorney my mom may have worked with.  If not, they are probably the best people to give us some direction as to what next.

Then go to a lawyer, if necessary.

[skimomma]

6 minutes ago, Pen said:

 

It sounds like she may have found and been able to afford a CCRC, in which case, her situation may be far more stable than you are anticipating and worrying about. 

 

Calling the senior living complex she is at may shed some light. 

 

What is a CCRC?

I may have to make a call to the complex.  I did get a 3am phone call a few weeks ago, from the complex, informing me that the fire department had been dispatched to mom's residence.  It was a false alarm and mom was fine but this tells me that they have my contact info, at least.

Edited August 6, 2018 by skimomma

[Pen]

Something like a continuing care retirement community— though I could be off on the acronym. 

People start in independent living part, and then if / as needed progress to assisted, and then nursing if necessary. It is set up at the start, so not so likely that you would be  getting a call that she has fallen and they need someone to deal with it. 

They sometimes have an upfront hefty buy in at the independent living stage, which after a certain time is non refundable but ultimately helps to pay for more assistance at later stages. 

As I understand it based on only one person I know who was at one. 

[DoraBora]

nvm

Edited August 6, 2018 by DoraBora

[Pen]

9 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

What is a CCRC?

I may have to make a call tot he complex.  I did get a 3am phonetical a few weeks ago, from the complex, informing me that the fire department had been dispatched to mom's residence.  It was a false alarm and mom was fine but this tells me that they have my contact info, at least.

 

Then they may be able to talk with you more straight forwardly about her arrangements and you can even refer to the call they made to you as part of why you are wanting to make sure of her situation , and what you might expect in various circumstances. 

[skimomma]

5 minutes ago, DoraBora said:

Continuing Care Retirement Community: sort of one-stop shopping for independent senior living, assisted living, memory care or nursing home care.  Residents can move to more care as needed.

 

Thanks to you and Pen for the acronym help!

I do believe this is the arrangement she has.  It explains the large downpayment despite still paying a hefty monthly "rent."  Years ago, she explained this to me but also expressed concern about being able to afford it long term.  So I am a bit unclear on what money goes towards what and when.  She mentioned in my very last phone call with her (in which she was not very with it) that she may have to look into moving somewhere less expensive.  I could tell she was not on top of her game so did not even try to ask her what this meant with the large down payment she made at the beginning.  It almost sounded like there were less costly options within the network she is in....apartments or something.  A meeting with her complex must also go on the list.  I can start with a phone call but if they balk due to privacy, I am hoping I can set up an in-person meeting with mom when I am there next.

 

[Pen]

15 minutes ago, skimomma said:

 

Thanks to you and Pen for the acronym help!

I do believe this is the arrangement she has.  It explains the large downpayment despite still paying a hefty monthly "rent."  Years ago, she explained this to me but also expressed concern about being able to afford it long term.  So I am a bit unclear on what money goes towards what and when.  She mentioned in my very last phone call with her (in which she was not very with it) that she may have to look into moving somewhere less expensive.  I could tell she was not on top of her game so did not even try to ask her what this meant with the large down payment she made at the beginning.  It almost sounded like there were less costly options within the network she is in....apartments or something.  A meeting with her complex must also go on the list.  I can start with a phone call but if they balk due to privacy, I am hoping I can set up an in-person meeting with mom when I am there next.

 

 

You might even find a website for them that would give some preliminary information. 

And if she brought it up that could help get into the subject with her. 

Choose a time you expect her to be relatively with it. For a lot of people I know that seems to be morning after eating and getting hydrated. Though an uncle in his 80s seems to be an after noon person 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Pen

[DoraBora]

1 hour ago, skimomma said:

 

Thanks to you and Pen for the acronym help!

I do believe this is the arrangement she has.  It explains the large downpayment despite still paying a hefty monthly "rent."  Years ago, she explained this to me but also expressed concern about being able to afford it long term.  So I am a bit unclear on what money goes towards what and when.  She mentioned in my very last phone call with her (in which she was not very with it) that she may have to look into moving somewhere less expensive.  I could tell she was not on top of her game so did not even try to ask her what this meant with the large down payment she made at the beginning.  It almost sounded like there were less costly options within the network she is in....apartments or something.  A meeting with her complex must also go on the list.  I can start with a phone call but if they balk due to privacy, I am hoping I can set up an in-person meeting with mom when I am there next.

 

Yes, she might be in a two bedroom independent living apartment, but there are one bedroom apartments available -- or apartments with fewer square feet or without a balcony.  Sometimes, when a senior is already established in such a place, they will work with her regarding costs.  

[TechWife]

4 hours ago, skimomma said:

So, that's my first question.  Any idea how to go about finding the will under these circumstances?  And what do we do if we highly suspect one is out there but never find it?  We are worried that she will need to put that POA into service soon and we have no idea who it might be!  Is there some sort of way to search that I am not thinking about?  Do wills get filed somewhere accessible to the public?  Surely people die all the time where no copy of a will is easy to access.

...

My question is, would it be inappropriate to ask for a meeting with this person and my mom next time I am in town to get an idea of her financial situation?  It will require talking my mom into it.  But before I even attempt that, is this a thing people do?  Maybe this person has a copy of the will?  Is that a thing?

...

How can we ensure she is getting good care and WHO pays for it with us so far away?

 

The will is not filed with the court until after death, so it will not be publicly accessible until then. The attorney who writes it usually retains a copy. She may have given the executor a copy of it as well, but that would be her choice. If you cannot find a will, there is a legal process by which the next of kin would file with the county court and request to become executor. State law would determine how assets would be distributed at that point as far as paying debts and who the heirs of remaining assets are. The court does not have to grant your request to be the executor and can choose to appoint anyone as executor.

Yes, it is appropriate for you to ask for a meeting and you mother, at the very least, will have to give permission for the meeting to take place, if not attend it herself. It is possible that her financial manager will have a copy of the will and any other legal documents. It is also possible, in fact, highly likely, that the financial manager is the named financial POA. I say this because a POA gives someone the authority to conduct business on behalf of the person granting it, so it seems likely he/she has at least a limited POA. She may be unsure if she has money/how much money she has/think she is running out of money because this person has been managing it for her and she isn't involved in the day to day details. Also, ask them to back up any reports they generate for her/you with bank statements, investment account statements, etc. - make sure you see physical copies of these.

If your mother is unwilling for you to meet with the financial manager, ask her for the person's name and phone number so that you have the contact info in case of emergency.

I also expect the financial manager will have the details on the care arrangement your mother has with the facility she is in. After all, if he/she is managing her financial affairs, then they would need to know the details in order to manage resources appropriately.

4 hours ago, skimomma said:

 

We wondered about this.  If a new will is written, does that automatically supersede any existing will?  And can a new will be made if mom is not competent?  If no will is found and a new one is not made, what happens if medical decisions need to be made and she is not able to make them?  There us a good chance mom is not willing to have another will made.

Yes,  wills contain a statement to the effect of "This will replaces any previously written will in part or whole." A will doesn't contain medical decision information, it only covers what happens to a person's assets after death, although it may contain burial information as well. You would have to consult an attorney on the question of competence - it can be tricky. There is a difference between experiencing memory issues an incompetence. It may mean that an assessment needs to be conducted to determine your mother's competency. But, before you embark on that assessment, make sure you understand the legal ramifications of the assessment. If it is determined that she is incompetent, then a guardian and fiduciary will probably need to be appointed for her, this may vary by state. I highly recommend that a family member or close, trusted friend be that guardian. By trusted, I mean someone you trust. There are professional fiduciary/guardians out there that courts use when the state is the guardian and they are not always reputable. The damage a bad guardian can do is significant. It is not necessary that you be in the state where your mother is in order to be your guardian if you make appropriate care arrangements.

If medical decisions need to be made and your mother is not able to make them, the doctors will turn to whoever has her medical POA. If there is no POA, or they are unable to find the person named in the POA, they will turn to next of kin. If there is disagreement among family members as to what treatment should be undertaken, and there is no POA, then it's possible the doctors or hospital would turn to the court and ask that a guardian be appointed. If the doctors or hospital cannot find next of kin, then they typically have a process for  that involves more than one doctor agreeing on the course of treatment in order for treatment to move forward. Emergency treatment will always be provided. If they have no idea of what the patient's wishes are, then they are supposed to use all reasonable means to preserve life. What is "reasonable" could vary by doctor, hospital or state. 

2 hours ago, skimomma said:

I feel like my ignorance of the basic language/terms is also not helping.  It sounds like mom needs at a minimum:

1. Advanced Medical Directive (thanks, Mary in VA!)

2.  Financial POA

3.  A will

In order for her to be adequately looked after if she is not able to look after herself and to ensure that her wishes are adhered to as to her assets and funeral arrangements.  Am I missing anything?

These all may exist, even if mom cannot locate them.  If she does indeed want help from her children, it looks like we need to either locate these documents or help her put new ones in place.  If she does not want help, we walk away and stop talking about it.  And in that case, should she become medically incapable of making her own decisions or dies and those documents cannot be found, we may be on the hook as next-of-kin?

 

Terms you need to know:

Last Will and Testament: details distribution of assets after death; may contain burial instructions; must be filed with the county probate court along with other legal papers, such as proof of notification of heirs, public notice to any debtors (usually a newspaper notice), death certificate. Again, what is required will vary by state. After the court receives and reviews all of this information, it will recognize the executor and give proof of that recognition to the executor so he/she can go about carrying out the terms of the will. The executor is legally bound to abide by the terms of the will.

Medical POA: give the person granted the POA access to medical records, enables health care providers to share information and usually give the person granted the authority to make medical decisions if the person is unable to do so. However, this, again, will vary by state. Medical POA does not remove any rights from the person. It can be revoked at any time, orally or in writing. A POA may be combined with an advance directive. Again, this is going to depend on state law. Again, depending on the state, the person who is granted the POA may be able to make decisions regarding immediate disposition of the body (chose a funeral home, authorize embalming, for example).

Finanical POA: gives the person granted the POA access to financial information and gives them the authority to conduct business on behalf of the person who has granted it, including managing money and property. It does not remove any rights from the person. They will still be able to conduct their own business and make any decision that they wish to make. A financial POA ends at the time of death. This is very important - financial authority transfers to the executor of the estate. This means that the person who holds the financial POA cannot access any checking accounts, sell any property, pay any bills, file life insurance, etc.. They can usually sign for funeral expenses, but that, again, will vary by state.

Living Will/Advance Directive: Gives information on what the person's wishes are as far as what type of treatment, resuscitation and life support a person wants and under what circumstances. It may be combined with the Medical POA, but it may also be a separate document.

Guardian: Again, state laws will vary. This is a person who is appointed to care for the physical needs of a person if they are determined to be legally incompetent. This person is responsible for making sure they have adequate housing, food, medical care, etc. They can choose physicians, nursing homes, hospitals, make treatment decisions (including the refusal of treatment when legal). The incompetent person is no longer allowed to make these decisions for themselves. A guardian may be entitled to payment of a fee for services from the financial resources of the incompetent person. Beware: there are professional guardians out there that will do this for the purpose of making money and provide minimal, if any, assurance that the needs of the person are actually being met.

Fiduciary: Again, state laws will vary. This is a person appointed to care for the financial assets of a person who has been declared incompetent. They will make all financial decisions and the incompetent person will no longer be allowed to make these decisions for themselves. This person is to pay bills, manage financial resources, such as checking, savings and investment accounts. A fiduciary may be entitled to a payment of a fee for services.  Beware: there are professional fiduciaries out there that will rob people blind and they will end up destitute.

Other things to ask about: Does she has any funeral and burial arrangements made, and if so, where? Ask if the arrangements have been paid for. If not, ask her what her wishes are. Expenses should be paid out of the estate, but if there is no money in the estate, then someone in the family will need to take responsibility. There may or may not be indigent funds available through the state to cover direct cremation, a funeral home or hospital social worker will know.

Also, ask her if you can meet with someone from the facility where she lives to find out about her financial arrangement with them.

2 hours ago, skimomma said:

With all of your great input, I am starting to develop a "plan."

First, I need to try to talk to mom when she seems the most with it and point-blank ask if she wants my help.  If not, I try to stop worrying and wait for the dreadful phone call which may or may not ever happen.  If she does, then on to the next step.

Next, ask her to allow me to accompany her to a meeting with her financial person to get an idea of the situation.  Advisor may have copies of existing docs, if they exist, or at least records of any that may exist.  Perhaps the name of any attorney my mom may have worked with.  If not, they are probably the best people to give us some direction as to what next.

Then go to a lawyer, if necessary.

Good plan. If she says she doesn't want your help, then ask her if she has made plans for someone else to take care of her affairs for her. If she has not, then the next of kin will be the one contacted in case of medical issues. So, you may or may not be able to stop worrying. If she has not made these arrangements, then be sure to bring that up in the meeting with the financial advisor. She should be strongly encouraged to make the arrangements.

1 hour ago, Patty Joanna said:

INFO NOT HELPFUL TO THE PARTICULAR SITUATION:  General info for the world at large:  a safe-deposit box is the WORST place to keep a will unless you also have given POA to someone who can open it without a court order.  Without the POA, or joint tenancy or something like that, the safe-deposit box is sealed until the court reads...the will.  (See the problem?).  Give a copy to a friend.  Put a copy in your freezer, or SOMEWHERE accessible.  (Me, I have given a copy to a friend but she is my age...so I'm also going to give a copy, and executor rights to a young couple in our parish, when we draft a new will soon...). 

Absolutely agree! Also, be aware that a POA expires at the time of death, so if a person is dead, the POA should not access the safety deposit box. If they do, they are breaking the law. An executor who has been recognized by the court will be able to access it. Make sure that someone has access to the will!

 

[TechWife]

OP, you will need to find out if the facility where your mother lives provides memory care - not all do. A simple internet search will probably answer that question.

[Pen]

 

 

5 hours ago, skimomma said:

 

Next, ask her to allow me to accompany her to a meeting with her financial person to get an idea of the situation.  Advisor may have copies of existing docs, if they exist, or at least records of any that may exist.  Perhaps the name of any attorney my mom may have worked with.  If not, they are probably the best people to give us some direction as to what next.

 Then go to a lawyer, if necessary.

 

If she wants you to help, personally I would suggest asking her how *she* wants you to help and if it is possible, following her lead. 

It sounds like your mother has not been comfortable being open with you about her personal affairs. You or your sister or both  insisting on seeing her financial advisor or putting such a big emphasis on seeing her Will may be experienced as intrusive, not as helpful. Especially if she is thinking she would like you to be medical POA, and you jump in about financial matters. 

Generally people have a right to privacy about their Will, for example, and relatives insisting on access does make motives seem suspicious, I think.

  Some of what you described of the financial advisor sounds like there was probably an effective trust set up to take care of your mother and her needs, and that the financial advisor may be the trustee .  It sounds like your father or mother or both may have already chosen who they want to handle things financially —  And it sounds also like it has been working fine for 25 years or so.

 

Edited August 7, 2018 by Pen

[Pen]

 

 

 

BTW Sometimes medications or dehydration can make it seem like people are having cognitive decline that could be fixed by changing medications or achieving better hydration. 

[Pen]

7 hours ago, skimomma said:

 I would like to move her to my location.  She is 100% adamant that she never wants to move from her area.  How can we ensure she is getting good care and WHO pays for it with us so far away?

 

If from your twice per year visits you think her care or situation is inadequate you can ask a senior or adult protection services person in her area to check on her. 

She likes it where she is and it sounds like she made a rational choice for herself. Since you can’t afford to pay for her care, what difference does it make if she is close or far?  

If you want to get closer contact and be able to check on how she is more often, while also honoring her own choice of retirement community, how about setting up Skype or FaceTime and having a daily virtual visit. 

[skimomma]

12 hours ago, TechWife said:

OP, you will need to find out if the facility where your mother lives provides memory care - not all do. A simple internet search will probably answer that question.

 

Your past post was very very helpful.  I have printed it out.  Thanks!

And, I did check.  The place does have memory care.  This does not surprise me as I know that mom has been worried about memory issues for as long as I can remember. 

[skimomma]

11 hours ago, Pen said:

 

 

 

If she wants you to help, personally I would suggest asking her how *she* wants you to help and if it is possible, following her lead. 

It sounds like your mother has not been comfortable being open with you about her personal affairs. You or your sister or both  insisting on seeing her financial advisor or putting such a big emphasis on seeing her Will may be experienced as intrusive, not as helpful. Especially if she is thinking she would like you to be medical POA, and you jump in about financial matters. 

Generally people have a right to privacy about their Will, for example, and relatives insisting on access does make motives seem suspicious, I think.

  Some of what you described of the financial advisor sounds like there was probably an effective trust set up to take care of your mother and her needs, and that the financial advisor may be the trustee .  It sounds like your father or mother or both may have already chosen who they want to handle things financially —  And it sounds also like it has been working fine for 25 years or so.

 

 

The possibility that her financial advisor is listed as her financial POA is comforting.  That would be much better than us trying to sort things out.  Neither of us has much know-how in that area.

We don't want to do anything mom is not comfortable with.  If she does not want help, that is fine.  Or if she has help all set up, that is also fine.  Great, actually.  We are just very concerned about her now that memory issues seem to be increasing rapidly, she brings up financial struggles often, and we feel that there is no one "on the ground" watching out for her.  

She is not the type to play games which is why I worry when she seems evasive about these issues.  If I thought there was a significant chance that she just wanted privacy or was worried that we would step on her wishes, I would completely drop it.  I feel very much though that this is more based in embarrassment and/or confusion.  

For instance, my mom hid the fact (from us) that she had diabetes for years.  It is absolutely her choice to disclose medical information as she is comfortable.  I was not upset that she never told me, just surprised.  Eventually she confessed to my sister that she was embarrassed to tell us because she felt the disease was her fault due to lifestyle choices.  Or that we would think it was her fault (we don't, BTW).  Mom has struggled with her weight for her entire life.  I am naturally thin.  And sister and I are both very into nutrition and fitness.  I have never judged my mom and never preach my nutrition/fitness habits.  But clearly she felt something not good about telling us.  There have been other examples like this involving financial matters, car repairs, etc.....