Help me think through Language Arts

[bethben]

This is concerning grammar and to delay or not to delay...First off- I'm not a language arts person (I barely know parts of speech - BIG gap in my education). Math is my speciality. I'm of the mindset that grammar and all that can wait until the child is reading well and learning to write. Well, I'm at that point. We're heading into 4th grade stuff. I've got spelling (AAS) and writing (WWE) figured out because they make a lot of sense to me personally. The whole other part of the language arts (alphabetizing, parts of speech, when to add an apostrophy, ect...) I really don't know how to teach. He's learned a lot about sentence structure through dictation, but I really am not all that great in the "everything else" category. Up until this point, we've done Primary Language Lessons (I skip the dictation sentences).

 

I'm confused as to where to go from here. I'm not too thrilled with Intermediate Language Lessons as it is a lot more writing and I think WWE is the way to go for us. Learn grammar through Latin instruction? So, what do I do? Continue to delay grammar? Start something like Easy Grammar? Help me figure this out. Thanks!

Beth

[Ali in OR]

I would second R&S. We're doing the third grade book this year. The lessons are short and stick to one narrow topic. We do some exercises orally, some on a whiteboard, skip some, do some on paper--whatever seems like reasonable practice to me that day. It's really very manageable, and you will learn a lot as well as your child. I would not teach grammar through Latin if I wasn't pretty comfortable with grammar myself. Go ahead and study Latin, but have something else on the side to learn English grammar too.

[Another Lynn]

The "everything else" stuff concerns me too. I use SWr for spelling and it gives a variety of "enrichment" LA activities to choose from. I was always worrying that I wasn't choosing the right variety to cover everything (maybe I have an aversion to certain things without even realizing it?) Anyway, I'm using FLL 3 with my 4th grader (we started it in the spring) and plan to go to FLL 4 maybe after Christmas. Besides parts of speech and diagramming I think there are also lessons on abbreviations, contractions, etc. It gives me great peace of mind and it is very gentle. Ds doesn't object to it at all (nothing short of amazing!)

 

Good luck!

 

(P.S. as one who had Latin in high school I sort of feel like there's nothing wrong with getting a foundation in English grammar before Latin instruction, fwiw).

[Sunshine State Sue]

Consider Junior Analytical Grammar. I'm a math person and AG appeals to me because it is clear and concise. I haven't used JAG, but I've been extremely pleased with AG. They have videos at the website (in my signature) that explain the program well.

[Jenn Robinson]

I also think that FFL3 is great for parents and children with out a lot of grammar experience. It starts with the basics for the child and a script for you!

[Jane]

I too recommend Rod and Staff. It walks you through *everything* and doesn't confuse the student w/too many extras. Every year they add more, but it is not an overwhelming amount. Your biggest learning curve if you or your student are truly unfamiliar with the basics will by introducing the 4th grade book, but really you should be fine because R&S does such a great job of weeding out all the confusing extras. Plus, lots of us use the books on these boards so if you have more questions you can ask.

 

That said, I haven't used Analytical Grammar or a few of the others recommended that may be equally as great. :)

[laurad1125]

My 4th grader is in FLL 3 and I really love it. We got the CD companion to 1 & 2 and it really helps stuff stick. He says he doesn't like it but he learns the lists pretty fast. (FYI - we also use WWE2. Being in different levels in those two programs hasn't been an issue)

 

FLL is easy to use. If you can read, you can teach grammar and usage. It has an accompanying workbook which is not strictly required but helpful for a busy mom (anyone on this board NOT busy? anyone? I thought not...) It also doesn't require too much writing which is great with my writing phobic boy. The best thing about it is that it actually sticks. He seems to understand these concepts. Which, I hope, will really help him in the future.

 

In the past we've used Daily Grams (worked OK but stuff didn't seem to stick) LLATL ( grammar part was OK but we needed more - and the writing stuff was way over ds' head) and FLL 1. We liked FLL 1 but needed something with less (read - no) teacher participation at the time.

[bethben]

Does a young 4th grader really need to know sentence diagramming? All I remember is being in 7th grade trying to diagram sentences and being totally confused. It probably didn't help that I didn't know parts of speech. I'm more of a less is more kind of person. To be honest, sentence diagramming freaks me out. There's so much "I" don't know as a teacher. Language arts is NOT my strength.

Beth

[dawn of ns]

Does a young 4th grader really need to know sentence diagramming? All I remember is being in 7th grade trying to diagram sentences and being totally confused. It probably didn't help that I didn't know parts of speech. I'm more of a less is more kind of person. To be honest, sentence diagramming freaks me out. There's so much "I" don't know as a teacher. Language arts is NOT my strength.

Beth

 

I was looking into this lately and what I read wasn't convincing. Some of what I read maintained that diagramming was a usefull tool for visual learners but some of it declared it just a tool and one you could safely disregard in favour of other methods. It's one way, but not the only way. I tried it a bit with my daughter and we're going to give it a bit of a fair shake but I'm not optimistic and feel fine about dropping it if it doesn't appeal to us. Parsing a sentence seems much easier and more enjoyable for my daughter.

 

For grammar I've found Winston Grammar to be extremely friendly to those of us who aren't grammar pros. Lessons are scripted, parts of speech are clearly explained, there's an answer key and (I love this part) questions from the student are anticipated and answered. I tried Easy Grammar but didn't find it so idiot-friendly.

 

For punctuation I've been wanting to buy A Fresh Approach To Teaching Punctuation for ages. I may still. Thankfully though it seems so far that Writing Strands is covering some of that. Another book I did buy and have found really useful is Everyday Editing where the author takes the approach that rather then correcting badly punctuated sentences as many workbooks tend to approach teaching punctuation, a teacher should show students examples of good writing, have them discuss how punctuation is used and then essentially outline and rewrite the sentences. Seems like a really progymnasmata/classical writing friendly approach. Excellent book for a no-nothing. :)

[Peela]

I would just pick a grammar program and do it. I am glad we did a solid year of grammar at that stage, because sometimes since then we have taken a break from solid grammar but we laid a good solid foundation then, so when we come back to it, the basics are there. You can do grammar orally, you can drop the writing exercises, you don't have to do it solidly year after year, but I would say its a good time to do a solid year of it. Those defintions, parts of speech- much easier to memorise them during grammar stage, I think. They kind of stick. I am sure glad we are not trying to learn them from scratch now, because there is so much else to learn now, too.

[Ellie]

You could get R&S's English and spelling, and then you wouldn't have to think about it any more :-)

[Kisa in CA]

I can speak from experience, since I too knew little grammar when I began teaching my son. We tried Growing with Grammar, Easy Grammar and are now using Rod and Staff. It is THE BEST because it will teach YOU and him. If you don't want to diagram early, just use it a grade level behind. It is so thorough and beause of the oral review you have to do, you learn too! It has saved me and made grammar a favorite subject for my son and I as we learn together. I even take the tests too!

 

HTH!

[BryRon]

This looks interesting...we're going to use Michael Clay Thompson, only because DD is extremely strong in this course. I did check into this initially, though, and it may be a little more driven to younger ages, it is certainly worth checking into, IMO:001_smile:

 

 

Does a young 4th grader really need to know sentence diagramming? All I remember is being in 7th grade trying to diagram sentences and being totally confused. It probably didn't help that I didn't know parts of speech. I'm more of a less is more kind of person. To be honest, sentence diagramming freaks me out. There's so much "I" don't know as a teacher. Language arts is NOT my strength.

Beth