Your experiences being vegetarian

[OrganicJen]

I'm a cookbook lover. Lots of the vegetarian cookbooks are written by non-vegetarians, and those are usually the ones with boring, just-sub-the-meat types. And there are vegetarian cookbooks for people who can't cook or are living in dorms, so those are filled with processed foods. Ditto with books written specifically to help meat-eaters transition to vegetarian.

 

I'm a much better cook as a vegan, and I cook far healthier food than I did before my switch. My spice cabinet is breathtaking (to me). :)

Again, I'm obviously not vegan, but one of my favorite cookbooks is vegan. It's by Baker Creek Heirloom Seed company. I love it because it has so many recipes for the heirloom veggies we love to eat. You can get it from their same website where they sell their seeds.

[creekland]

Wow...I had no idea, this is heartbreaking. It's awful to think that local fresh produce is that expensive in some areas that it's a luxury. For us it's less expensive to eat local produce, although our favorite things we just grow. The farmers markets I've been to are less expensive than grocery stores. This makes me sad for our society. My son had this idea that I thought was great, that every flat roofed building should have a hydroponic greenhouse on the roof. So in schools they could grow fresh pesticide and herbicide free foods for lunches, grocery stores with flat roofs could grow food right on their roofs etc.

 

Winter has a bit of say in this in some locations.  Would the heat required to keep the greenhouses warm enough and the electric required to provide enough light be a better trade off?  I'm not so sure.

 

Farmer's Markets are usually more expensive here than grocery stores are and I live in a rural farming community.  One can sometimes get good deals at roadside stands though, but who knows if any of the produce grown is organic.  Our neighbor used to have a U Pick Strawberry field literally right next to our house.  I overheard him tell people the strawberries were 88% (+/- with my memory) organic.  He only sprayed for weeds and bugs... Uh, ok.  They nodded in appreciation though.  He definitely sprayed for weeds and bugs - and fertilized too.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Wow...I had no idea, this is heartbreaking. It's awful to think that local fresh produce is that expensive in some areas that it's a luxury. For us it's less expensive to eat local produce, although our favorite things we just grow. The farmers markets I've been to are less expensive than grocery stores. This makes me sad for our society. My son had this idea that I thought was great, that every flat roofed building should have a hydroponic greenhouse on the roof. So in schools they could grow fresh pesticide and herbicide free foods for lunches, grocery stores with flat roofs could grow food right on their roofs etc.

 

It's expensive because not much grows here.  If you can't grow much and have very little to sell, then whatever bits you do have are going to be expensive.

 

We have a garden every year.  It's a wash in terms of cost because we have to rent a small plot of land AND half of what we grow doesn't make it.  Sometimes most of it does not make it.  The weather does not cooperate or we have to deal with animals that we aren't allowed to do anything about in terms of getting rid of them.

 

The farmer's markers are mostly craft food fairs.  Stuff like homemade jam, honey, artisan bread.  I mean "nice", but not really everyday sort of food stuff either.  And I don't really eat those things most of the time. 

[OrganicJen]

There are several ways around the greenhouse heating issue in cold areas. We have never fuel heated ours even when we lived in northern Idaho for a time. There are a several books on the issue. Some people build greenhouses down in the ground where the temperature stays pretty stable. Walipinis are one example of this. There are more elaborate methods too where you actually dig a trench for a cold sink. Then some people use cold frames and hoop houses and just grow cold tolerant plants. Also a lot of people use water barrels positioned to trap the heat of the sun.

[OrganicJen]

It's expensive because not much grows here. If you can't grow much and have very little to sell, then whatever bits you do have are going to be expensive.

 

We have a garden every year. It's a wash in terms of cost because we have to rent a small plot of land AND half of what we grow doesn't make it. Sometimes most of it does not make it. The weather does not cooperate or we have to deal with animals that we aren't allowed to do anything about in terms of getting rid of them.

 

The farmer's markers are mostly craft food fairs. Stuff like homemade jam, honey, artisan bread. I mean "nice", but not really everyday sort of food stuff either. And I don't really eat those things most of the time.

You should look into non circulating hydroponics. It yields a lot of food in a small space with little money, time and effort. Kratky has some instructional videos on it on the web. I have amazing success with it. I also grow some things in the ground using permaculture methods, but the bulk of our daily food is from the Kratky method. I use raft tables in greenhouses mainly with some tubs and buckets too, and even have a tub with greens inside by a window.

[SparklyUnicorn]

You should look into non circulating hydroponics. It yields a lot of food in a small space with little money, time and effort. Kratky has some instructional videos on it on the web. I have amazing success with it. I also grow some things in the ground using permaculture methods, but the bulk of our daily food is from the Kratky method. I use raft tables in greenhouses mainly with some tubs and buckets too, and even have a tub with greens inside by a window.

 

What about temperature?

[OrganicJen]

What about temperature?

It just depends on your situation. I started with a tiny little above ground greenhouse and packed it with hydroponics and the water stored enough heat it didn't freeze. But even before I did that I just grew a lot in warm months and dehydrated and canned extra food so we could have it in winter too. To me it was better to at least have some home grown food in the winter dehydrated or canned than to buy it, especially with how inexpensive it was to grow a ton of food all summer with the non circulating hydroponics since it uses no electricity and makes so much food in so little space. Now I have it in mainly below ground greenhouses so the cold is less of an issue. But even when the bulk of my growing had to be in the warm months and we dehydrated and canned the extra, we still had tons to give away because it just created so much in so little space.

[OrganicJen]

Plus, just the one tub I have in the house gives us a lot of fresh heirloom salad greens all year round.

[MEmama]

There are several ways around the greenhouse heating issue in cold areas. We have never fuel heated ours even when we lived in northern Idaho for a time. There are a several books on the issue. Some people build greenhouses down in the ground where the temperature stays pretty stable. Walipinis are one example of this. There are more elaborate methods too where you actually dig a trench for a cold sink. Then some people use cold frames and hoop houses and just grow cold tolerant plants. Also a lot of people use water barrels positioned to trap the heat of the sun.

Around here a lot of independent farms have solar as well. The panels work well even in our low light northern area.

[Jenny in Florida]

I went vegetarian over 30 years ago, and I'm still at it.

 

I have always been relatively healthy, and I continued being so as a vegetarian. In fact, certain things seemed to improve. For example, I had always had a tendency towards anemia, but haven't had a problem since going veg, even during the early years when I ate the same junk food I was already eating, just without the meat.

 

I went vegan (no eggs, dairy or animal products of any kind) almost 20 years ago. Interestingly, again, certain persistent health issues improved a bit at that point. Most notably, I was taking acid reduction meds to cope with ongoing stomach pain. Nearly a year after going vegan, I was cleaning out my purse and found a bunch of the tablets floating around in the bottom of the bag, crushed nearly to powder. That was when it hit me that I hadn't needed them in months. Since then, I have had those symptoms only when I accidentally eat something containing dairy.

 

I have to admit that health had nothing to do with my decision to go veg or to stick with it; for me, it's an ethical/spiritual choice based on a bedrock belief that it is wrong to make other beings suffer and die for my convenience or pleasure. So, while the presumed health benefits are nice, for me, they really aren't the point.

 

And, no, for me vegetarianism/veganism did not lead to weight loss. I've had a weight problem my entire life, and I'm still overweight now. I've been thinner as an omnivore and fatter as an omnivore, and I'm been thinner as a veg*an and fatter as a veg*an. Consuming -- or not consuming -- animal products doesn't seem to impact that for me.

 

My kids -- now young adults -- are lifelong vegans. Both are healthy, despite going through the normal phases of young kid pickiness and adolescent junk food fixations.

[creekland]

There are several ways around the greenhouse heating issue in cold areas. We have never fuel heated ours even when we lived in northern Idaho for a time. There are a several books on the issue. Some people build greenhouses down in the ground where the temperature stays pretty stable. Walipinis are one example of this. There are more elaborate methods too where you actually dig a trench for a cold sink. Then some people use cold frames and hoop houses and just grow cold tolerant plants. Also a lot of people use water barrels positioned to trap the heat of the sun.

 

This doesn't quite match the post I was answering about schools having greenhouses on their roof to be able to eat from it year round.  ;)

 

FWIW, some schools are experimenting with greenhouses around us (though not on the roof).  I think it's a wonderful idea.

 

My youngest son wants to turn our farm into more of a permaculture deal.  He did a presentation in Jordan about it (permaculture) and how it could help (and is helping in trials) their country with food production too - very well received.

 

He's more than welcome to try.  We're pretty much retired now.  With just the two of us living here we even opted to give away a lot of our extra veggies this year rather than freeze them.  We froze some, but not the same amounts we did with 5 (or 4) of us living here.

[SparklyUnicorn]

It just depends on your situation. I started with a tiny little above ground greenhouse and packed it with hydroponics and the water stored enough heat it didn't freeze. But even before I did that I just grew a lot in warm months and dehydrated and canned extra food so we could have it in winter too. To me it was better to at least have some home grown food in the winter dehydrated or canned than to buy it, especially with how inexpensive it was to grow a ton of food all summer with the non circulating hydroponics since it uses no electricity and makes so much food in so little space. Now I have it in mainly below ground greenhouses so the cold is less of an issue. But even when the bulk of my growing had to be in the warm months and we dehydrated and canned the extra, we still had tons to give away because it just created so much in so little space.

 

It's not uncommon for it to be below zero F here in winter.  Believe me...stuff freezes.

 

I have no room in my house.  It has to be something that could go outside and I don't know of any solution for that that doesn't have a very high startup and maintenance cost. 

 

Cost wise, buying produce has been cheeper for us.  The gardening is more of a hobby for my husband truth be told. 

[regentrude]

Wow...I had no idea, this is heartbreaking. It's awful to think that local fresh produce is that expensive in some areas that it's a luxury. For us it's less expensive to eat local produce, although our favorite things we just grow. The farmers markets I've been to are less expensive than grocery stores.

 

Farmers market here runs May through October - because this is the season when stuff grows here.

I like shopping the farmers market, even though produce is way more expensive than store bought, because I like to support local farms.  But besides locally produced eggs, there is no local food available in the winter. Except for frozen meat.

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by regentrude

[Jenny in Florida]

It's all about people's expectations. I've known some vegetarians who will outright complain to me that my only vegetarian offering at a bbq was a salad and bread. After all the years of knowing her, I should get more creative.  This was at a children's birthday party. She came with her kids who are not vegetarian. 

 

Sounds to me like that's not a "vegetarian" problem but a bad manners/unfair expectations one.

 

I've been at this veg*an thing for a long time, and I never, ever expect anyone to feed me. Nor do I make a big deal about not being fed.

 

When I attend a social occasion, I assume I am there to socialize. If there's something I can partake of while there in order to participate in the meal, great. (And I'm perfectly happy if that "something" is a plain salad or a baked potato with no toppings; that's more than fine.) If not, I'll sip a beverage and chat happily and have a snack when I get home.

 

When my kids were little and attending friends' parties, I would discreetly contact the host parent ahead of time and ask if if was okay for me to bring something for my child and, if so, what the party menu was so that I could do my best to bring something that would blend into the landscape. It's possible some folks were irritated, but I'm fairly sensitive to such things -- since I move through life more or less assuming everyone is just tolerating me, anyway -- and I never got the impression that this approach was a problem. 

 

When my kids encountered situations for which we had not had a chance to prepare, I would quietly explain that good manners meant they needed to politely decline anything they would not eat and that I would make sure they got fed something appropriate as soon as possible after the event.

 

The only time this general approach has ever been a problem is when we've encountered hosts who insisted on having a discussion about why my family was not partaking or felt it was appropriate to challenge or tease us about our choices. 

 

As long as everyone plays nice, there's no earthly reason for this to be a problem.

Edited December 22, 2017 by Jenny in Florida

[OrganicJen]

This doesn't quite match the post I was answering about schools having greenhouses on their roof to be able to eat from it year round. ;)

 

FWIW, some schools are experimenting with greenhouses around us (though not on the roof). I think it's a wonderful idea.

 

My youngest son wants to turn our farm into more of a permaculture deal. He did a presentation in Jordan about it (permaculture) and how it could help (and is helping in trials) their country with food production too - very well received.

 

He's more than welcome to try. We're pretty much retired now. With just the two of us living here we even opted to give away a lot of our extra veggies this year rather than freeze them. We froze some, but not the same amounts we did with 5 (or 4) of us living here.

Oh sorry, I see what you mean. Well my son had done some reading on it and he said the roof greenhouses are becoming popular in some areas of the world but I didn't ask him how cold places deal with that, but I would think they could use solar and that the heat from the warmth of being on top of a large building could help. I would love if all the big flat roofed stores grew hydroponic food on their roofs, I think it would be great for communities. I also think it would be a nice skill for kids in school to learn. I think with space and time being an issue more and more that hydroponics, especially the non circulating type, will be a more and more popular way to grow a ton of food for little money in a small space. I know a lot of people who have changed their lawns to food gardens though and they manage to grow a lot in the ground too of course.

[Liz CA]

Farmers market here runs May through October - because this is the season when stuff grows here.

I like shopping the farmers market, even though produce is way more expensive than store bought, because I like to support local farms.  But besides locally produced eggs, there is no local food available in the winter. Except for frozen meat.

 

 

Yes, we are spoiled here in CA and in areas where we take this for granted. We have some Farmers' markets that sell year round.

[Jenny in Florida]

I was an ethical vegetarian for several years, but I take offense at your example. A person is not the same as an animal. Please do not equate slaves with animals.

 

Of course a person is not "the same" as an animal, just as a dog is not "the same" as a cat.

 

However, the point that many ethical veg*ans are trying to make is that, for us, the life of an animal has as much worth and as much right to respect as that of a human. I recognize that you disagree, but that doesn't make it okay for you to tell us not to voice our own beliefs.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Oh sorry, I see what you mean. Well my son had done some reading on it and he said the roof greenhouses are becoming popular in some areas of the world but I didn't ask him how cold places deal with that, but I would think they could use solar and that the heat from the warmth of being on top of a large building could help. I would love if all the big flat roofed stores grew hydroponic food on their roofs, I think it would be great for communities. I also think it would be a nice skill for kids in school to learn. I think with space and time being an issue more and more that hydroponics, especially the non circulating type, will be a more and more popular way to grow a ton of food for little money in a small space. I know a lot of people who have changed their lawns to food gardens though and they manage to grow a lot in the ground too of course.

 

And you won't find flat roofs are very common in places that get a lot of snow.  The people around here have very steep roofs.  The only flat topped places are these stupid "throw em up in a week" business parks and they have all sorts of problems with leaky roofs.  And they have to get up there to shovel so nevermind adding weight from growing stuff.

 

A few in the area have solar panels, but these tend to be cheapo apartment buildings where the owner basically rents his roof out so solar companies can pocket the government subsidies.  Sometimes the owner saves a few bucks on utilities, but there is guarantee of that. And I wonder how great they are in winter when they are covered with snow and ice and it's cloudy for weeks at a time. 

[eternalsummer]

I haven't met too many people who even talk about this (except on-line).  They just eat.

 

Not everyone has access to stuff direct from a local farm.  Not everyone has the money or energy to even pursue such a thing.  Hell, I'd say even where I am, the concept of farmer's market is mostly some sort of foo foo fad because it's completely unpractical to spend $10 for a bulb of garlic or three to four times the price for produce (that the farm stand person possibly got from a local grocery store anyways because not a lot grows in my area so where are they getting it I always wonder).  Once a year I trek to some "somewhat" local dairy farms for cheese (we do have a lot of dairy farms in the state).  This is a complete splurge for me and certainly not something I could afford to do on any sort of regular basis. 

 

 

Yes, we ate this way when quite poor, and we didn't at that time eat foo foo fad farmers market meat or whatever.  We just ate beans and rice and bananas and occasionally kale (kale was super cheap at Target for the calories!) and apples and popcorn.  

 

 

I don't know anyone who eats factory farmed food because it is all they can afford.  They eat it because they would rather eat it than not, because they've made the value judgement that convenience, taste, or price is more important than avoiding directly causing the suffering of the animal (not in death, which I see as pretty natural honestly, but in living in such a way that it never sees the sun, or engages in natural behaviors, or often can never leave a cage.  Like ever.)

[MEmama]

Farmers market here runs May through October - because this is the season when stuff grows here.

I like shopping the farmers market, even though produce is way more expensive than store bought, because I like to support local farms. But besides locally produced eggs, there is no local food available in the winter. Except for frozen meat.

That isn't the case everywhere, though. Here in Maine many communities have year round farm markets that offer bounties of fresh food. Plenty grows here even in winter in greenhouses and grown hydroponically (increasing in popularity). There are sustainable and economic ways of getting around traditionally short growing seasons, but there does have to be a culture of interest and forward thinking. New England shines in that department, I think.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Yes, we ate this way when quite poor, and we didn't at that time eat foo foo fad farmers market meat or whatever.  We just ate beans and rice and bananas and occasionally kale (kale was super cheap at Target for the calories!) and apples and popcorn.  

 

 

I don't know anyone who eats factory farmed food because it is all they can afford.  They eat it because they would rather eat it than not, because they've made the value judgement that convenience, taste, or price is more important than avoiding directly causing the suffering of the animal (not in death, which I see as pretty natural honestly, but in living in such a way that it never sees the sun, or engages in natural behaviors, or often can never leave a cage.  Like ever.)

 

You misunderstood what I was getting at.  You ate low cost food.  You didn't pay for overpriced food despite being poor.

 

The only people I know who shop at farmer's markets around here are well off.  To add to the ridiculousness of this, the farmer's markets now take food stamps.  I think this would be an insane use of the very little money they give people.  I am just baffled by this concept given what I've seen of the farmer's markets around here!

[MEmama]

Oh sorry, I see what you mean. Well my son had done some reading on it and he said the roof greenhouses are becoming popular in some areas of the world but I didn't ask him how cold places deal with that, but I would think they could use solar and that the heat from the warmth of being on top of a large building could help. I would love if all the big flat roofed stores grew hydroponic food on their roofs, I think it would be great for communities. I also think it would be a nice skill for kids in school to learn. I think with space and time being an issue more and more that hydroponics, especially the non circulating type, will be a more and more popular way to grow a ton of food for little money in a small space. I know a lot of people who have changed their lawns to food gardens though and they manage to grow a lot in the ground too of course.

Lots of buildings do this. Whole Foods has been a leader in growing their own food in rooftop gardens.

[Jenny in Florida]

My dd is 25 and has been a vegetarian since age 12. Her biggest complaint is that when going out with friends she just gives up and orders the salad. This is a function of her friends and living in a "meaty" part of the country. She has been off gluten for 4 months (actual GI stuff) so she can't resort to bread anymore.

 

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G900A using Tapatalk

 

Yeah, the veg*an/gluten free combo makes life really super fun.

 

As I said, I've been vegetarian-then-vegan for ethical reasons for more than 30 years, now, but recently had to go GF for health reasons. It's a whole new world complexity. 

[OrganicJen]

It's not uncommon for it to be below zero F here in winter. Believe me...stuff freezes.

 

I have no room in my house. It has to be something that could go outside and I don't know of any solution for that that doesn't have a very high startup and maintenance cost.

 

Cost wise, buying produce has been cheeper for us. The gardening is more of a hobby for my husband truth be told.

I'm not trying to convince you that it would work for you, it's simply something that has worked for us and I recommend it and have found a lot of people aren't aware of the options out there for growing food so I'm happy to share my experiences. I went from a kid who used to think the food from grocery stores was real food and the stuff from my grandparents farm was fake, to slowly experimenting with growing things here and there, to providing the bulk of my family's veggies successfully with what to me feels like little time and effort. There is a very inexpensive book that a man wrote, who I think lived in way northern Idaho, about how he built an earth sheltered or underground greenhouse for pretty cheap to grow food in winter, but I haven't used his exact methods so I can't endorse it. Anyway, there are a lot of cold hardy veggies that can be grown in even small hoop tunnels and a very healthy one is cabbage that can be fermented into sauerkraut with a high vitamin C content which is great to eat in the winter months when it's hard to get things like citrus. So one of the ways people have dealt with the seasonal issues of growing their food in addition to dehydrating and canning is lactofermentation. My personal favorite way to store food in the winter though is dehydration because it preserves a lot of nutrients if done at a low temp, and it takes up so little space to store dehydrated food. It also makes it easy to add a little of everything into a smoothie when it's dehydrated too and I will often throw in a dehydrated sweet pepper to a smoothie for more vitamin C lol.

[regentrude]

That isn't the case everywhere, though. Here in Maine many communities have year round farm markets that offer bounties of fresh food. Plenty grows here even in winter in greenhouses and grown hydroponically (increasing in popularity). There are sustainable and economic ways of getting around traditionally short growing seasons, but there does have to be a culture of interest and forward thinking. New England shines in that department, I think.

 

yeah, the rural Midwest cannot be called progressive, not matter what kind of metric you apply 

[OrganicJen]

yeah, the rural Midwest cannot be called progressive, not matter what kind of metric you apply

Lol!

[wintermom]

And you won't find flat roofs are very common in places that get a lot of snow.  The people around here have very steep roofs.  The only flat topped places are these stupid "throw em up in a week" business parks and they have all sorts of problems with leaky roofs.  And they have to get up there to shovel so nevermind adding weight from growing stuff.

 

A few in the area have solar panels, but these tend to be cheapo apartment buildings where the owner basically rents his roof out so solar companies can pocket the government subsidies.  Sometimes the owner saves a few bucks on utilities, but there is guarantee of that. And I wonder how great they are in winter when they are covered with snow and ice and it's cloudy for weeks at a time. 

 

Not to mention that there needs to be sunlight to collect solar power. Short days, snow, fog, etc. all reduce any chance of solar power. 

[Liz CA]

Some estimates say the oceans will be fishless by 2045. Fish gasp for oxygen when caught, flapping around trying to get back to the water. They sort of backwards drown.

 

Recently in our area, a family was fishing in the park (legal) and another family was nearby. The woman caught a pretty big fish, and she put it on the ground, calling for her family to come see. The fish was flapping and opening and closing his mouth frantically. A boy from the non-fishing family, around 10 yo, grabbed the fish and threw it back in the lake. The fishing family started screaming and filming him, and called the cops. The other family turned out to be protesting the fishing going on in the park. No charges were filed.

 

What I couldn't stop thinking about was the cat that was with the fishing family. If the boy had thrown the cat in the lake and drowned it, he would have been arrested. But for stopping people from "air drowning" a fish, he got a lecture from the cop and smeared on social media/in the local media.

 

Oh, back on track, much of the fish eaten in the US is factory farmed as well, being fed cornmeal or chopped up dead fish. Some of the fish farm conditions are revolting.

 

Yes, killing swiftly and humanely is key. 

I don't eat farmed fish. So I pay more for wild caught but it's worth it IMHO. The overfishing of certain species is worrisome and I try to find out where product comes from. Fishing technique itself is also a factor as some methods harm others than those being fished. There is no reason that any animal should suffer in a prolonged way. 

[OrganicJen]

Not to mention that there needs to be sunlight to collect solar power. Short days, snow, fog, etc. all reduce any chance of solar power.

I get that, but I also think that there are many places where it would work and would be beneficial so it's better to have it in some places than none at least.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Not to mention that there needs to be sunlight to collect solar power. Short days, snow, fog, etc. all reduce any chance of solar power. 

 

Yeah we were on the fence with getting the panels on our roof.  It's dark for weeks on end in winter.  I just cannot fathom this saving any money.  I might be ok with breaking even, but I'm not even sure if that would happen.  And then if I get the panels, will this increase the value of my house and raise my already insanely high taxes?!  So given those two things, it's completely uninteresting. 

[SparklyUnicorn]

I get that, but I also think that there are many places where it would work and would be beneficial so it's better to have it in some places than none at least.

 

I think a big factor for many is cost. 

[eternalsummer]

You misunderstood what I was getting at.  You ate low cost food.  You didn't pay for overpriced food despite being poor.

 

The only people I know who shop at farmer's markets around here are well off.  To add to the ridiculousness of this, the farmer's markets now take food stamps.  I think this would be an insane use of the very little money they give people.  I am just baffled by this concept given what I've seen of the farmer's markets around here!

 

 

Ah, that's true!

 

As far as food stamps go, I know when I was on WIC they had some coupons you could use at farmers markets (and I think only at farmers markets, or only for fresh food, or something). 

[OrganicJen]

I think a big factor for many is cost.

I'm sure that's true but I'd love to see all the Wal-Mart's and Costco stores around us with food growing on their huge flat roofs.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I'm not trying to convince you that it would work for you, it's simply something that has worked for us and I recommend it and have found a lot of people aren't aware of the options out there for growing food so I'm happy to share my experiences. I went from a kid who used to think the food from grocery stores was real food and the stuff from my grandparents farm was fake, to slowly experimenting with growing things here and there, to providing the bulk of my family's veggies successfully with what to me feels like little time and effort. There is a very inexpensive book that a man wrote, who I think lived in way northern Idaho, about how he built an earth sheltered or underground greenhouse for pretty cheap to grow food in winter, but I haven't used his exact methods so I can't endorse it. Anyway, there are a lot of cold hardy veggies that can be grown in even small hoop tunnels and a very healthy one is cabbage that can be fermented into sauerkraut with a high vitamin C content which is great to eat in the winter months when it's hard to get things like citrus. So one of the ways people have dealt with the seasonal issues of growing their food in addition to dehydrating and canning is lactofermentation. My personal favorite way to store food in the winter though is dehydration because it preserves a lot of nutrients if done at a low temp, and it takes up so little space to store dehydrated food. It also makes it easy to add a little of everything into a smoothie when it's dehydrated too and I will often throw in a dehydrated sweet pepper to a smoothie for more vitamin C lol.

 

I'd love to find something that would give us a better chance at having a successful harvest.  Because year after year I am frustrated with that aspect.  But I also don't really want to spend too much money on it either. 

 

I don't know what I'd do with dehydrated foods.  I avoid them because they tend to have too many carbs and sugar. 

[OrganicJen]

Yeah we were on the fence with getting the panels on our roof. It's dark for weeks on end in winter. I just cannot fathom this saving any money. I might be ok with breaking even, but I'm not even sure if that would happen. And then if I get the panels, will this increase the value of my house and raise my already insanely high taxes?! So given those two things, it's completely uninteresting.

We have been hoping the cost goes down so we can get panels, they are still so expensive unfortunately.

[creekland]

yeah, the rural Midwest cannot be called progressive, not matter what kind of metric you apply 

 

Same here.  As mentioned before, even "88% organic" around here means "we only spray for weeds and bugs" while completely forgetting the fertilizer also used (not organic) and it just gets a nod (at least sometimes).  I still marvel at that one TBH.

 

I'm just glad I can get decent looking and tasting produce at our local grocery store, and only when it took over new ownership and we asked for it did they start carrying lamb (probably mainly for us, but there are at least a few others who buy it on occasion since I keep track of their supplies when I go).

 

Still, some things are progressing.  I see more people actually shopping for produce now than I did 20 years ago when we moved here.  There are kids at school who try hard for a decent diet.  There are still more who stop by McD's on their way to school and come in with their breakfast sandwich and soda, but there is change.  Our Health class (mandatory for 9th graders) and Fitness and Wellness classes (mandatory for 11th graders) try hard to teach nutrition from a science perspective.  I can work some in during Bio classes too.

[SparklyUnicorn]

Ah, that's true!

 

As far as food stamps go, I know when I was on WIC they had some coupons you could use at farmers markets (and I think only at farmers markets, or only for fresh food, or something). 

 

Yeah that's not a bad idea if they give coupons (WIC, for example) to be redeemed for food items.  HOWEVER, if you have a limited budget as it is, traveling to multiple stores and shops and markets adds to the cost.  Transportation is not free and public transport is time consuming.  KWIM?  Cities around here are not set up for walkers.  Stuff is spread out.  It's actually pretty decent if you have a car. I can be at multiple stores within minutes getting on the expressway which is up the street for me.  But for taking public transport or walking, forget it.

[OrganicJen]

I'd love to find something that would give us a better chance at having a successful harvest. Because year after year I am frustrated with that aspect. But I also don't really want to spend too much money on it either.

 

I don't know what I'd do with dehydrated foods. I avoid them because they tend to have too many carbs and sugar.

I've never added sugar to my foods to dehydrate them. I just for instance, slice up a sweet pepper then dehydrate it and store them in a jar. Or with greens I just dehydrate them and use my food processor to make them a powder and store in a jar to add to things like pasta dough or smoothies or soups. Or dehydrate tomatoes and store in the freezer in bags. I can use them as a substitute for sun dried tomatoes in recipes in winter.

 

Eta...although we snack on the dehydrated tomatoes all the time, they are sort of like a fruit leather, kind of chewy, so they often don't make it into recipes lol.

Edited December 22, 2017 by OrganicJen

[creekland]

I think a big factor for many is cost. 

 

It is.  A few months ago NBC ran a story about how one indoor hydroponic farm was closing down because they couldn't compete cost-wise with the regular ole farms.  Not enough people were willing to pay for it and I believe subsidies were ending (if my memory is correct).  I wondered at the time if getting on the news changed anything or not.  I guess I'm still wondering now that it's been rekindled in my mind!

 

Cost is indeed a factor for MANY when they choose what they are going to eat.  Cost coupled with their taste buds.  Many people are on tight budgets.  We've only loosened ours some now that we're empty nesting and not feeding three boys.  Having a higher income now than we did in the past helps too.  One can eat rice and beans cheaply (we did at times - enjoying it - still do once in a while too), but sticking with that alone is hardly a scientifically nutritious diet.  

[OrganicJen]

It is. A few months ago NBC ran a story about how one indoor hydroponic farm was closing down because they couldn't compete cost-wise with the regular ole farms. Not enough people were willing to pay for it and I believe subsidies were ending (if my memory is correct). I wondered at the time if getting on the news changed anything or not. I guess I'm still wondering now that it's been rekindled in my mind!

 

Cost is indeed a factor for MANY when they choose what they are going to eat. Cost coupled with their taste buds. Many people are on tight budgets. We've only loosened ours some now that we're empty nesting and not feeding three boys. Having a higher income now than we did in the past helps too. One can eat rice and beans cheaply (we did at times - enjoying it - still do once in a while too), but sticking with that alone is hardly a scientifically nutritious diet.

This is one reason non circulating hydroponics is becoming more popular. It is a lot cheaper and less work than traditional hydroponics.

[SparklyUnicorn]

I've never added sugar to my foods to dehydrate them. I just for instance, slice up a sweet pepper then dehydrate it and store them in a jar. Or with greens I just dehydrate them and use my food processor to make them a powder and store in a jar to add to things like pasta dough or smoothies or soups. Or dehydrate tomatoes and store in the freezer in bags. I can use them as a substitute for sun dried tomatoes in recipes in winter.

 

Eta...although we snack on the dehydrated tomatoes all the time, they are sort of like a fruit leather, kind of chewy, so they often don't make it into recipes lol.

 

No no...I mean I don't make stuff like dough or smoothies.  I eat stuff as is mostly (in terms of vegetables).   I mean more concentrated stuff is higher in carbs and sugars.  I sometimes eye those dehydrated veg snacks they have at the store, but then I see the carb count.  Too high. 

 

I eat low carb.

 

I know...goes against my baking fest I just posted about.  I do not eat the stuff though.  Ok..I had ONE cookie and my blood sugar crashed shortly after and I felt like crap.  The stuff just does not like me! 

[SparklyUnicorn]

It is.  A few months ago NBC ran a story about how one indoor hydroponic farm was closing down because they couldn't compete cost-wise with the regular ole farms.  Not enough people were willing to pay for it and I believe subsidies were ending (if my memory is correct).  I wondered at the time if getting on the news changed anything or not.  I guess I'm still wondering now that it's been rekindled in my mind!

 

Cost is indeed a factor for MANY when they choose what they are going to eat.  Cost coupled with their taste buds.  Many people are on tight budgets.  We've only loosened ours some now that we're empty nesting and not feeding three boys.  Having a higher income now than we did in the past helps too.  One can eat rice and beans cheaply (we did at times - enjoying it - still do once in a while too), but sticking with that alone is hardly a scientifically nutritious diet.  

 

Are they as nutritious?  I have to wonder.  I read a bit about it and I guess it depends on the added nutrients.  When trying to cut costs, how do I know they aren't skimping in that department?  KWIM?  Is there any regulation on that?

[eternalsummer]

I do eat fairly high carb, low protein, low fat (except when I'm pregnant, sigh).  It would be much more difficult on a low-carb diet, that is for sure.  

[OrganicJen]

No no...I mean I don't make stuff like dough or smoothies. I eat stuff as is mostly (in terms of vegetables). I mean more concentrated stuff is higher in carbs and sugars. I sometimes eye those dehydrated veg snacks they have at the store, but then I see the carb count. Too high.

 

I eat low carb.

 

I know...goes against my baking fest I just posted about. I do not eat the stuff though. Ok..I had ONE cookie and my blood sugar crashed shortly after and I felt like crap. The stuff just does not like me!

Oh I see what you mean. We don't really find that an issue. A lot of the things we dehydrate we eat by using in soups and stews with extra liquids in the winter so by the time we eat it in a recipe it isn't more concentrated it's just rehydrated back to normal. We snack on some things while still dry and it is easier to overdo those kind of snacks for sure.

[OrganicJen]

Are they as nutritious?  I have to wonder.  I read a bit about it and I guess it depends on the added nutrients.  When trying to cut costs, how do I know they aren't skimping in that department?  KWIM?  Is there any regulation on that?

 

I'm not an expert on this but I can speak from my personal experience and knowledge.  What I have found is that the regulation comes directly from the plants.  So whether growing a plant in the ground or in hydroponics, if it has a nutrient deficiency or other problem it will definitely tell me.  There are a variety of signs and symptoms of a less than healthy or nutrient deficient plant and I wouldn't ever be able to skimp on the health of my plants because it decreases their yield or they are sick looking icky plants I wouldn't want to eat.  So there really isn't a way that I know of to cut costs by skimping on nutrients but still get a product in the end that is worth growing.  So the way we have cut costs was switching to non circulating hydroponics because it is so much more cost effective in every way but still provides wonderful produce.  Traditional hydroponics requires more elaborate and more expensive equipment to circulate the water and nutrient solution, it requires more water, it requires more nutrient solution, it requires electricity, and it requires more work.  Non circulating hydroponics only requires basic, simple to make equipment, no electricity, less water, much less nutrient solution, less time, and way less work on my part.  With non circulating hydroponics I can typically set up a new planting in a table with it's water and nutrients, and then I typically don't have to do a thing to it until I start harvesting, including never having to add more nutrients or water.  So that is the only real way I know of to dramatically cut costs with hydroponics.  From my experience, if I were to skimp on nutrients to save money, the plants would show it and overall would be a waste because they would have yellow leaves or weird spots on their leaves or just would fail to thrive etc. 

[Sandwalker]

I also have a problem with this idea, on totally different grounds.

 

I live in a place that is good for small farming. I can easily get meat for my freezer, cheeses, etc, that IMO are farmed in an ethical and sustainable way, fairly close to my home. In some cases, like lamb, I can even get it at the grocery store, but there are also farmers markets and farm shares available for meat, fish, and vegetables and fruit. Actual fluid milk is a little tricker because of the supply management system - you don't have the same tendency to small farms although they are smaller than in many other provinces and there is less variation in what you can get - but it's still not that unreasonable and there are some options for milk from places you can go and see the operation and feel the farms are being run with a goal of ethical sustainable management.

 

All of these farms tend to have a lot of varied plant and animal life - not like the giant monocultures you see out west.

 

I really can't say that these choices are always worse than any non-animal choice. I can get nuts or nut-milks that are a staple of many vegan diets, but the nuts come from California. Lots of out of season vega also come from California - lettuce, beans, carrots etc, these are all non-sustainable and highly environmentally destructive. Oranges grown in Israel, country that has desalination plants for water. Coconut based products, avocados and avocado oil - these are also problematic from the point of habitat destruction, and food security, sustainability. All these things require shipping infrastructure. And there are human costs in many of the countries these plant products are shipped from in terms of cash cropping and local diet - and that in turn also contributes significantly to damage to the local ecology. Organic certification is almost useless when it comes to these questions as industrial organic agriculture is just a mirror of industrial agriculture generally.

 

And it's just very difficult to be very sure about what goes on on farms thousands of miles away, or to have political influence on farm laws and systems that far away.

 

So no - I don' think eating animal products produced under ecologically sustainable methods is always worse than eating a plant product thats contributing the the total destruction of some other ecosystem. That seems crazy.

Animal agriculture is far more detrimental to the planet and to humans than plant-based foods. Far more. You can cherry pick almonds are bad or whatever you like, but the water, land, pesticides, and animal deaths are far higher with animal agriculture. Don't fool yourself.

[Sandwalker]

Sounds to me like that's not a "vegetarian" problem but a bad manners/unfair expectations one.

 

I've been at this veg*an thing for a long time, and I never, ever expect anyone to feed me. Nor do I make a big deal about not being fed.

 

When I attend a social occasion, I assume I am there to socialize. If there's something I can partake of while there in order to participate in the meal, great. (And I'm perfectly happy if that "something" is a plain salad or a baked potato with no toppings; that's more than fine.) If not, I'll sip a beverage and chat happily and have a snack when I get home.

 

When my kids were little and attending friends' parties, I would discreetly contact the host parent ahead of time and ask if if was okay for me to bring something for my child and, if so, what the party menu was so that I could do my best to bring something that would blend into the landscape. It's possible some folks were irritated, but I'm fairly sensitive to such things -- since I move through life more or less assuming everyone is just tolerating me, anyway -- and I never got the impression that this approach was a problem.

 

When my kids encountered situations for which we had not had a chance to prepare, I would quietly explain that good manners meant they needed to politely decline anything they would not eat and that I would make sure they got fed something appropriate as soon as possible after the event.

 

The only time this general approach has ever been a problem is when we've encountered hosts who insisted on having a discussion about why my family was not partaking or felt it was appropriate to challenge or tease us about our choices.

 

As long as everyone plays nice, there's no earthly reason for this to be a problem.

^

[eternalsummer]

I would say the same about non-animal products.  

 

Do you mean that you don't encounter people who only eat non-factory farmed plant products?  Yes, I would agree this is much harder and indeed almost impossible unless you grow your own or live in a growth-friendly climate. But I'm not sure how it relates, exactly - the problem with factory farming of animals is pretty significantly different than large-scale farming of plants; grossly speaking, a factory farmed animal is abused and suffers pretty much its entire life, and when you eat it, you not only condone but demand that treatment.

 

I don't know that a factory farmed plant suffers in the same way as an animal - is that the argument you're making, the carrots suffer too argument?  

[ktgrok]

For me the issue is that vegetarianism relies on farm based, agriculture based eating. As in, grains, beans, etc. You couldn't drop a person off in the wilderness in most places and expect them to survive without eating animal products. You can kill and eat a bird or snake or fox or catch fish and be well fed. You can't live off of prairie grasses and pine needles for very long. Areas with lots of wild fruit would be an exception I would imagine. So then I have to decide if I think a grain/legume based, post agriculture diet is a good one for me health wise. And that is where I get stuck. And yet, if one can live without killing animals, perhaps one should, even if it isn't optimal?

[Bluegoat]

It's not uncommon for it to be below zero F here in winter.  Believe me...stuff freezes.

 

I have no room in my house.  It has to be something that could go outside and I don't know of any solution for that that doesn't have a very high startup and maintenance cost. 

 

Cost wise, buying produce has been cheeper for us.  The gardening is more of a hobby for my husband truth be told. 

 

People grow veg here all year round, it gets down to about -10 to 15 in January and February.  That's under glass or plastic but without and electricity or heat - like straw-bales and plastic sheeting or windows over top.

 

It's not what I'd call varied - you're really growing some hardy veg like kale that supplements your roots and stored food.  And if you start winter veg early so they are about grown when winter starts, they will stay nice in the ground in these little grow-beds. They won't actually grow any more, it is too cold, but they will be very edible, sometimes even nicer than before the cold.