WahM Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 My dd is in 4th grade and doing Singapore primary mathmatics. She’s done the program from 1-present but she just hates the program. Every day she’s distracted and takes hours to finish. It’s not that the math is too hard once she knows she’s in a time crunch because there’s something coming up that she wants to do she will finish easily. I don’t know if it’s the format or what. I have a feeling that she’s bored with doing the same type of problems over and over I think she would like something more spiral where there’s a mixture of different types of problems a day. We had tried CLE 1 way back in the beginning and she loved it but I switched because I wanted to have a more “conceptual†program. At this point is it worth switching back to CLE or some other program? Or should we just ride it out until prealgebra? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 My dd is in 4th grade and doing Singapore primary mathmatics. She’s done the program from 1-present but she just hates the program. Every day she’s distracted and takes hours to finish. It’s not that the math is too hard once she knows she’s in a time crunch because there’s something coming up that she wants to do she will finish easily. I don’t know if it’s the format or what. I have a feeling that she’s bored with doing the same type of problems over and over I think she would like something more spiral where there’s a mixture of different types of problems a day. We had tried CLE 1 way back in the beginning and she loved it but I switched because I wanted to have a more “conceptual†program. At this point is it worth switching back to CLE or some other program? Or should we just ride it out until prealgebra? I would not let her spend hours doing math, no matter what. I'd set her to work for, oh, 45 minutes, and call it good. Seriously. I have not figured out what people mean when they say that this publisher or that publisher is more "conceptual." All of them teach "concepts." I think you might have gotten sucked into that, lol. If your dd loved CLE, then it would have been better to stay with it. I have not used Singapore or even reviewed it; I know that many people here seem to like it, but the few times I was able to pick up a workbook briefly, it did not appeal to *me.* Apparently it doesn't appeal to your dd, either. I say give it up. Go back to CLE, if you want. Or do Saxon, which will be the last publisher you'll ever need (you'd want to give your dd the placement test so you'll know which book to place her in). Or Rod and Staff Publishers, which is excellent and which your dd can do until she's ready for algebra. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 You could work on strategies to help her focus, like chunking, using a lock box for distractors, etc. If the program fits her overall, then change how you're using it. She'd probably have the same issues with CLE, because she'll have the same body. 360Thinking has a ton of great ideas for how to work with kids who need help to focus and stay on track. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 I also would not let a ten year old kid spend hours every day on a subject they don't like. Whatever gains they're making, they can't be worth this time expenditure. One hour, tops. One of the advantages of homeschooling is you get to tailor your curriculum to your student. If she doesn't like Singapore, please, pick something else! If she liked CLE, run with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Well we do the lesson together then she does the workbook on her own and that’s when she’s super distracted and takes hours to finish most of it is spent looking around, dodding, etc. not actually math. If I set a timer for 45-60 mins a day she would probabaly take over two years to finish a one year curriculum. Not exaggerating that’s who much she would not do in that time frame and I don’t want to hold her back and her get super behind when she can work at or above grade level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 It's fine to do the lesson together and assign independent work, sure, yes. She's an appropriate age for that and it's a good skill, absolutely. She sounds like a pretty typical ADHD, maybe also gifted presentation, which means it's time to start bringing in those supports, things like chunking the work, setting goals. ‎www.efpractice.com/images/pdfs/plenary.pdf Here's a slideshow for a 360Thinking talk. They had a really excellent webinar for only $39 this summer, but it's over now. Anyways, you can do things like setting smaller goals, like hey let's break this page into 4 parts, let's estimate how long each part should take, let's set the timer and finish that first chunk and have a cookie, then do the 2nd chunk and have a cookie, and so on. Structure is a huge, huge buzzword for this. Just to plop them in front of a page and say go isn't going to give her more skills to do better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Well we do the lesson together then she does the workbook on her own and that’s when she’s super distracted and takes hours to finish most of it is spent looking around, dodding, etc. not actually math. If I set a timer for 45-60 mins a day she would probabaly take over two years to finish a one year curriculum. Not exaggerating that’s who much she would not do in that time frame and I don’t want to hold her back and her get super behind when she can work at or above grade level. Nevertheless, I would not allow her to spend hours finishing a lesson of any kind. You'll need to figure out why she's distracted and takes hours to finish. Is the lesson too easy for her? too hard? completely not her style of learning? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanaqui Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 Well we do the lesson together then she does the workbook on her own and that’s when she’s super distracted and takes hours to finish most of it is spent looking around, doodling, etc. not actually math. If I set a timer for 45-60 mins a day she would probably take over two years to finish a one year curriculum. Not exaggerating, that’s how much she would not do in that time frame and I don’t want to hold her back and her get super behind when she can work at or above grade level. Then there are two potential issues here. They are not mutually exclusive. The first is you have a bad curriculum choice for her and you need to pick one that works for her. She's not engaged, she's not interested, and she's not learning. (It's also possible that you're giving her too many problems in a sitting. If she understands the material and isn't making mistakes, then why belabor the point? Cross out half the problems from each set.) The second is that, as suggested, she may not be NT. I wouldn't jump to "she's distracted during a boring lesson and doodles and looks around" to "therefore, she must be ADHD" but it's definitely a possibility. If the lesson is taking hours, she's not learning the material better just because she does the entire problem set. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 25, 2017 Author Share Posted October 25, 2017 Thank you for all the suggestions. I will look into all of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 You might give the placement test for CLE and she where she places. CLE ended up being a much better fit here than either Singapore or MM. I supplement the word problems and have used Beast Academy on the side for some additional depth but CLE definitely worked better here by a LONG shot. I would suggest, though, that you consider cutting out some of the review problems in areas she is solid. Everything gets reviewed a LOT so if she is learning the concepts and internalizing the material then all that review is not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fralala Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 If a kid is bored or uninspired by math, changing the curriculum can be an expensive way to prove that the problem isn't the curriculum. Several questions that you may or may not find useful(but not demanding you answer them here): 1. Do you enjoy math and look for opportunities to share your excitement about it daily, beyond just progressing through a curriculum? This is how I've added spiral (and fun) to Singapore. I walk around with a tape measure in my pocket and we keep our kitchen scale on the table. When I'm not with my kids, I snap pictures of things I think might spark an interesting mathematical discussion. (Signs with different shapes, for instance, or a litter of piglets, or an incredibly tall stalk of corn.) Right now we've spent a week observing the tree in our front yard and the weather conditions and are about to estimate the date on which it will have finished shedding all of its leaves. When math is slow and tedious, letting it spark conversations and even build your relationship with the kid who is struggling is...a true joy! 2. Do you provide your daughter with opportunities to "test out" of having to do lots of practice? Something like giving her one challenging problem and, once she gets it, crossing out all the other practice problems and telling her she's free to spend the next 30 minutes doing "independent study" for math-- anything that interests her and in which she needs to use math. The project can take more than a day. Deciding what your project is going to be can take longer than a day. And one thing I often have to remind my kids is that the challenging problem itself is meant to be challenging-- like, you might have to walk away from it challenging, or you might decide you'd prefer to blast through your easy ones challenging, because it involves multiple steps and processes. But I wouldn't be scared of assigning only one problem. I am reworking my way through my high school algebra and geometry, and it is the problems that take me the longest that I actually learn from. Often I will learn more from doing a single hard problem (over the course of several days!) than from a whole page of easy ones. We are looking for learning, not boxes checked off! (Often I think we homeschool parents are tougher on our kids than classroom teachers who are confident with differentiation...we can be so insecure about failing our kids!) 2. What does your daughter say when you share with her your concerns that you shared here? I notice that you seem to be guessing at her motivation and feelings, but if she can be honest with you, her advice will probably be better than any of ours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milknhoney Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 I went through a period of several years with ds who took forever on his work (in every subject...) due to daydreaming. It was very frustrating because despite all of my lectures and reasoning with him, he didn't seem to care how much of his free time he was losing. I don't think anything ever actually truly helped until he just grew out of it. BUT, I think it helped a LITTLE when I started making him set a timer and record how much time he spent to complete each assignment. When he actually saw how much time he had let go by, I think it motivated him a tiny bit to buckle down. The suggest above to let her "test out" of extra practice is a good one. Between the text and the workbook, there are probably more practice and review pages than really necessary in Singapore. Sometimes I allow one to be skipped if a perfect score is reached on the previous. Linking it to time taken to complete is an idea I wish I had thought of back when ds was daydreaming... Now algebra is his favorite subject and he blasts through it with gusto! Take heart! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forty-two Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 My oldest is like that with math, although somewhat less so as she is getting older. It's not usually an issue with the SM workbook, but happens regularly with IP. For her, it hits most when the problems are conceptually easy yet something about them is also hard. (If it's conceptually hard, she cries; if it's genuinely easy in all respects she whips them out. It's only when it's a combo of easy to see what needs doing, yet hard to actually *do* it that she goes off into daydreaming, doodle land.) I try to figure out what, exactly, is hard about it, and either remove the obstacle or explicitly teach dd11 how to work through it. For example, wrt removing the obstacle, I eventually figured out that one reason dd had more trouble with the Intensive Practice than the workbook was because the print was smaller - it meant there were more problems on the page and less space to write answers. Both of those things throw dd off. I deal with the number of problems by having her do one or two per page per day, and I dealt with the lack of space by getting her a graph paper notebook. Anytime she doesn't have enough space, she can write NB in the space (for notebook) and do the work there. WRT working through it, she is stronger conceptually than procedurally. When she was younger she found it hard to do problems that required more calculating than thinking - they were "boring" - and left to her own devices would have done only "thinking" sorts of problems. But eventually her lack of calculating skill was hampering her ability to do thinking problems, and that's when I decided she needed a lot more practice at rote calculation, boring or not. It was hard at first - I had to sit right by her and redirect her attention three zillion times. (And I thought a lot about whether I should change curricula.) But we both put in plenty of steady work, and now she can whip out most calculations without it being a thing. I know from my own experience that things that the things that feel "easy" yet are somehow painful to actually *do* - usually I'm missing some precursor skill. And with dd, I try to figure out what, exactly, she's missing, and either explicitly work on that skill or else find a different way to do it that doesn't require that particular skill. She definitely leans in the ADHD direction, although I don't think she is diagnosable. But I think she could use more explicit teaching on *how* to focus and sustain focus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 My dd is in 4th grade and doing Singapore primary mathmatics. She’s done the program from 1-present but she just hates the program. Every day she’s distracted and takes hours to finish. It’s not that the math is too hard once she knows she’s in a time crunch because there’s something coming up that she wants to do she will finish easily. I don’t know if it’s the format or what. I have a feeling that she’s bored with doing the same type of problems over and over I think she would like something more spiral where there’s a mixture of different types of problems a day. We had tried CLE 1 way back in the beginning and she loved it but I switched because I wanted to have a more “conceptual†program. At this point is it worth switching back to CLE or some other program? Or should we just ride it out until prealgebra? If this problem is exclusive to Singapore math, then it is likely the math and not ADHD or something like that. If she loves CLE, let her do CLE. I also suggest you put all of math into a time crunch to get it all done in one hour per day, your teaching time + her independent time, and then have there something rewarding for her to do when she's done. We did all subjects by time rather than by content or pages or problems gotten through anyway, so that when the timer said _____ was done for the day, it was done for the day. A good faith effort was expected for the time it was being done, and the benefit was that school time was condensed with more time for play. Don't get hung up on thinking Singapore is more "conceptual." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 25, 2017 Share Posted October 25, 2017 How many components of Singapore are you using? CWP, IP, EP, other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 How many components of Singapore are you using? CWP, IP, EP, other? We only do the HIG, textbook, workbook, and sometimes we do the process skills word problem book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 If this problem is exclusive to Singapore math, then it is likely the math and not ADHD or something like that. If she loves CLE, let her do CLE. I also suggest you put all of math into a time crunch to get it all done in one hour per day, your teaching time + her independent time, and then have there something rewarding for her to do when she's done. We did all subjects by time rather than by content or pages or problems gotten through anyway, so that when the timer said _____ was done for the day, it was done for the day. A good faith effort was expected for the time it was being done, and the benefit was that school time was condensed with more time for play. Don't get hung up on thinking Singapore is more "conceptual." I know she is a wiggle kid overall, but the concentration in Singapore has gotten so bad. She’s always been active and distracted. Her little brother has a better attention span then she has ever had. But she’s able to pull it together enough to finish her other subjects in a timely manner. Sometimes I think she liked CLE better because it had many different types of problems in a lesson instead of just focusing on one. And I have gotten caught up in the whole conceptual is superior and it’s more rigorous than other programs. Maybe it’s just not the right fit. I’ve tried for many years to make it work and it just hasn’t gotten any better. I will try the timer more because if she knows she’s up against deadline she will focus better to finish. I just didn’t want to stress her out with timing her every day. Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 It's fine to do the lesson together and assign independent work, sure, yes. She's an appropriate age for that and it's a good skill, absolutely. She sounds like a pretty typical ADHD, maybe also gifted presentation, which means it's time to start bringing in those supports, things like chunking the work, setting goals. ‎www.efpractice.com/images/pdfs/plenary.pdf Here's a slideshow for a 360Thinking talk. They had a really excellent webinar for only $39 this summer, but it's over now. Anyways, you can do things like setting smaller goals, like hey let's break this page into 4 parts, let's estimate how long each part should take, let's set the timer and finish that first chunk and have a cookie, then do the 2nd chunk and have a cookie, and so on. Structure is a huge, huge buzzword for this. Just to plop them in front of a page and say go isn't going to give her more skills to do better. Thank you for the link! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 Remember, those kinds of strategies and supports are good for ALL kids, ADHD or not. So the whole question of diagnosis, that could be another time. But I'm just saying it's good to step up supports. You could just say she's gifted and step up supports. Call it anything you want. And yes, Pen's point is really well taken that you're probably seeing issues across environments if it's ADHD, not *only* in math. We were one where we didn't get the ADHD diagnosis until later, like 12. In retrospect, it was obvious I was putting up with a lot, compensating for a lot, that was clearly, clearly ADHD. Nobody was taking me aside and going wow, can't you see it? We just painted it like oh the romantic beautiful wonder and flexibility of homeschooling. Fine, whatever. At some point it's really nice to have the right words, because right words lead you to right strategies and prevent wrong words like dumb, bored, lazy, etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I know she is a wiggle kid overall, but the concentration in Singapore has gotten so bad. She’s always been active and distracted. Her little brother has a better attention span then she has ever had. But she’s able to pull it together enough to finish her other subjects in a timely manner. Sometimes I think she liked CLE better because it had many different types of problems in a lesson instead of just focusing on one. And I have gotten caught up in the whole conceptual is superior and it’s more rigorous than other programs. Maybe it’s just not the right fit. I’ve tried for many years to make it work and it just hasn’t gotten any better. I will try the timer more because if she knows she’s up against deadline she will focus better to finish. I just didn’t want to stress her out with timing her every day. Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing? FWIW, a lot of kids do better with mastery based but a lot of kids don't. They do better with a spiral approach that has many different types of problems. If your child really flounders with mastery based (mind did) and she liked CLE better, she can still get a great math education using CLE as the spine. Many parents have used it very successfully. You can supplement with some of the Singapore word problems for some deeper conceptual understanding. CLE does have conceptual within its pages, just not to the depth of Singapore. Lots of people supplement from Singapore and other conceptually based sources (like Beast Academy) but still use CLE as the spine because it works for their children. Or use games and other resources on the side to solidify conceptual understanding. Those sometimes work better for a wiggly kid. Teach the child in front of you. I had to work to embrace that concept. Use what works. If you have been struggling through Singapore and she really hates it, she liked CLE and you are both frustrated, then I say try switching back. It doesn't have to be set in stone. Give it a light unit or two and reevaluate. If it works, great. If it doesn't, at least you know that isn't going to be the solution, and you didn't have to buy an entire year's worth of material. Just make sure you give her the placement test first (and keep in mind that the first light unit of each level is review of the previous level's concepts) and don't be afraid to cross out some of the review problems in the areas she is solid. :) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pen Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 I know she is a wiggle kid overall, but the concentration in Singapore has gotten so bad. She’s always been active and distracted. Her little brother has a better attention span then she has ever had. But she’s able to pull it together enough to finish her other subjects in a timely manner. Sometimes I think she liked CLE better because it had many different types of problems in a lesson instead of just focusing on one. And I have gotten caught up in the whole conceptual is superior and it’s more rigorous than other programs. Maybe it’s just not the right fit. I’ve tried for many years to make it work and it just hasn’t gotten any better. I will try the timer more because if she knows she’s up against deadline she will focus better to finish. I just didn’t want to stress her out with timing her every day. Maybe it wouldn’t be a bad thing? If she is wiggle kid over all, then I would look into ADHD. And also try to change math to something that would not be so distressing. Ask her what about CLE she liked if she can remember, or what she thinks she'd like better, or what the problem with Singapore is from her POV. BMS schools at least past a certain grade, generally have set times for classes. They don't go on and on after the bell to change class rings. For us doing subjects by time worked well. As did moving on when something was understood, or spending longer on something if it was not, rather than doing things according to the number of pages available in our book. Maybe it would stress your dd out--I guess if you try you'll know. For my ds it meant that there was an end in sight. My son liked the aspect of Khan Academy that allowed moving on if you got the first 3 problems of a particular type all correct, so that the computer assumed mastery of the topic. It helped him to do a careful accurate job, rather than feel overwhelmed by page after page of material. In 4th grade he was using MUS because the page layout was good for him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WahM Posted October 26, 2017 Author Share Posted October 26, 2017 Thank you for all the support and helpful advice. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letsplaymath Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 There is one possibility that I don't see mentioned in the posts above. 4th grade math is HARD. The difficulty level, both conceptually and procedurally, takes a big jump in 4th grade. This would have happened with any other curriculum, too, so the fact that she liked the early level of CLE may not matter. She would still be facing hard math in the 4th grade book. With a child who is struggling as you describe, I would not allow her to do ANY independent work in math. Do the workbook together, buddy-style, as I describe in this blog post. It will be much faster and save you both a world of headaches. Don't worry about whether she'll grow up dependent on you. You held her hand when she was learning to walk, and she learned just fine. Now is a time when "holding her hand" is appropriate in math -- but she will become independent in her own time. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterPan Posted October 26, 2017 Share Posted October 26, 2017 It's partly hard because it requires more working memory, more sequencing, more executive function skills, things that would be low or behind in ADHD. So working on WM especially would be a good strategy. I'm all for whiteboard math, buddy math, but independent work is valuable too. For whiteboards we like the 16x20 size. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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