I believe my 12yo ds cheated on his Latin hw this week...

[Sunshine State Sue]

I was out at choir practice last night. Ds decided to do his Latin hw (translate about 30 sentences). Dh didn't look in on him. I believe that ds copied the translation out of the teacher's manual. No one saw him. I keep the TM in an extra student book. I believe the binding was turned the opposite way from the way I generally keep it. That was my first hint. The second hint was how well ds did on the translation.

 

ETA: The third hint was that he did the homework on Monday night while I was gone. He generally does it on Tuesday. I work all day (from home) and he does "school" with Dad, which consists of 1 science lesson. So, he has plenty of time to do his Latin homework and spread it out all day long on Tuesday.

 

What do you think are appropriate consequences? I am thinking of giving him an opportunity to tell the truth and if he doesn't, then the consequences will be more severe.

 

I don't want to have to lock up teacher's manuals and rip out the answer key from the back of the books, but I've been tempted before now.

 

Sigh!

Edited October 29, 2008 by Sue in St Pete

[shell in SC]

Maybe have him do it again?

 

We've had to deal with these issues. If you cheat, you have to do the assignment again. And yes, the answers in the back of the book get ripped out and the TM's go in a tote bag with me whenever I go somewhere.

 

It probably wasn't the ideal solution to our problem, but it worked.

[battlemaiden]

How about a pop quiz? Test his knowledge on that exact translation.

 

I wouldn't recommend directly challenging him. Let it come to light naturally if possible.

[unsinkable]

I was out at choir practice last night. Ds decided to do his Latin hw (translate about 30 sentences). Dh didn't look in on him. I believe that ds copied the translation out of the teacher's manual. No one saw him. I keep the TM in an extra student book. I believe the binding was turned the opposite way from the way I generally keep it. That was my first hint. The second hint was how well ds did on the translation.

 

What do you think are appropriate consequences? I am thinking of giving him an opportunity to tell the truth and if he doesn't, then the consequences will be more severe.I don't want to have to lock up teacher's manuals and rip out the answer key from the back of the books, but I've been tempted before now.

 

Sigh!

 

I don't agree with this part. You think he used the answer book. Tell him you think he used it and then give him his consequence.

 

My opinion is that kids "cheat" for different reasons. I wouldn't presume to give you a consequence before I know why he did what he did.

[Beth in Central TX]

I think I would ask him to translate the sentences again, today, right now, with you standing right there beside him. If there's trouble, then I would ask him if he used the answer key to help with his homework last night.

 

If he can translate the sentences, then I would move forward, but keep this incident in mind. If he can't, and he admits to cheating, then I would require all Latin homework to be done in my presence (or another trusted authority figure) until further notice. Responsibility comes with a price, and a child that has lost his trustworthiness has to earn it back.

 

HTH!

[Gailmegan]

I would give him a little quiz, including some of the harder parts of the translation to see if he really gets it. If he doesn't get it, I would have him redo the assignment. IMO the main purpose is for him to learn it, so I wouldn't impose any additional consequences, but I would probably hide the answers. Of course character is important too, but I would address that separately.

[Kanga]

Can I just completely digress and say, "Translate 30 sentences, Really? For a 12 yo? My college professor did not make me do this much!" If you want to know why he cheated I can tell you why!

 

Back on topic, I agree with those that suggested giving him a quiz. If he gets a B or above move on.

 

I would address the character issue, but I also don't think we should frustrate our children.

 

Just 2 cents from a draconian homeschooler.

[clwcain]

The old Jesuit who taught me Latin would always follow any suspicion of cheating with a sudden demand for oral recitation, translation, and exegesis.

 

He would look over the document and then ask the student to explain the grammar of several of the sentences without reference materials.

 

Generally, it became painfully obvious whether or not the student had cheated.

 

In this way the wrong was exposed, the culprit humiliated, and no one had to bother with more punitive measures.

 

Cheating is its own punishment.

 

And I agree that 30 lines is too much even for a college student. Grad student, no...but they should already know the language. ;)

 

HTH

[Remudamom]

Asking him to do it again wouldn't work if he can remember the sentences. I've got one that remembers math answers from last week.

 

I don't think you can punish him if he won't admit he cheated. In this house if someone is lying but won't own up to it I handle it in a different manner.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

And I agree that 30 lines is too much even for a college student. Grad student, no...but they should already know the language. ;)

 

 

Well, it really depends on the sentences. I don't know what Sue uses for Latin, but my son is younger than hers and he does translate some texts that are about 30 sentences long. But they're short and straightforward (for the most past) sentences.

 

I would definitely quiz. Ask for the reason it's translated this way and not that way. Ask for a few cases identifications.

[Zelda]

Asking him to do it again wouldn't work if he can remember the sentences. I've got one that remembers math answers from last week.

 

I don't think you can punish him if he won't admit he cheated. In this house if someone is lying but won't own up to it I handle it in a different manner.

 

Please tell us! I need strategies.

[Haiku]

I think you should assign the same homework again. If your son points out that he's already done it, simply tell him you want it done again. He probably won't ask why. If he does, ask him why he thinks you want him to do it again.

 

Tara

[clwcain]

Asking him to do it again wouldn't work if he can remember the sentences. I've got one that remembers math answers from last week.

 

At least with Latin, that is part of the brilliance of demanding oral explanation of all the relevant grammar. If you've cheated, you might be able to recall the translation, but you won't be able to explain it.

 

If you can explain it, and you cheated, I must confess that my reaction is "so what". If he knows the material, move on.

 

The goal is to get them to master the material.

 

Now, if you caught him in the act of cheating...that is a different story entirely.

 

But under the circumstances you've outlined, if he can orally defend the Latin homework he's submitted, you have only your suspicion to act upon. That's not enough, IMO.

[bkpan]

At least with Latin, that is part of the brilliance of demanding oral explanation of all the relevant grammar. If you've cheated, you might be able to recall the translation, but you won't be able to explain it.

 

If you can explain it, and you cheated, I must confess that my reaction is "so what". If he knows the material, move on.

 

The goal is to get them to master the material.

 

Now, if you caught him in the act of cheating...that is a different story entirely.

 

But under the circumstances you've outlined, if he can orally defend the Latin homework he's submitted, you have only your suspicion to act upon. That's not enough, IMO.

 

:iagree:

[myfunnybunch]

May I very very gently say that I believe that it is crucial that you be honest with your son. There is absolutely no way to be certain that he's cheated, and on the off chance that he didn't cheat, punishing him for not "coming clean" may backfire.

 

When my dd was home and the same age, something similar happened with math.

 

I was direct: I sat her down and told her that the desire of my heart is to trust her and to believe her trustworthy, but what I saw had me concerned. My heart was hopeful that she'd just done exceptionally well on her algebra. I told her that I wasn't going to ask any questions, nor was I accusing her of anything, but I felt the need to point out my observations and share my thoughts because I could not think of a reasonable explanation.

 

The next day I sat in the same room while she did a similar assignment. She did not do well. Assigning the same/similar work, or asking your ds to go over the work with you to explain how he got the answers he got, is a good idea. But I'd tell him why, calmly. Explain it as an opportunity to put your mind at ease (which is true), rather than as a punishment. If he still passes with flying colors, hooray!! And if not, well, then it's time to figure out the consequences. (I'd move the TM either way, though, for my own peace.)

 

:grouphug: I was sad and disappointed when my dd did the same thing. And in retrospect, getting to see that and working through it together was a valuable lesson for her.

 

Cat

[Janice in NJ]

Sue,

 

You've received some good advice, but I just wanted to send a BTDT hug. :001_smile:

 

It's a bummer to find out that on top of teaching Latin, now you have to parent your way through the dishonesty maze. PLEASE know that you are not alone! BTDT! Just push on through, Momma!

 

And be psyched that you homeschool! Once I got over being really ticked off and disgusted with my kid(s) :glare:, I realized that hsing afforded me more power over this than non-hsing parents have. We have the blessed privilege of being in the solidly loop with this stuff - a grand opportunity to raise our kids. They just seem to have NO PLACE TO HIDE, eh?

 

PEACE!

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

[lvbnhome]

We gave them the opporutunity to confess, what we KNEW they had done.

The next day. I went and bought another workbook and they started with LEsson 1... all over again... with the understanding... that they would complete it. The other book, was thrown into the trash can. That was hard, because they were 3/4 finished with the material. Never had a problem again!!

They got the point.

Lacy:grouphug:

[Sunshine State Sue]

Thanks everyone. I haven't spoken with ds yet, but I will. Ds admitted to dh that he cheated. You all have helped me to decide to (1) have ds redo the homework and (2) have ds do his work in front of me until trust is reestablished. Left on my own, I would have been much more severe.

 

For the record, ds is taking Latin with a tutor using Oxford Latin 1. He had to translate a section of 30 sentences for his weekly homework.

 

If he can't, and he admits to cheating, then I would require all Latin homework to be done in my presence (or another trusted authority figure) until further notice. Responsibility comes with a price, and a child that has lost his trustworthiness has to earn it back.

 

I'll have him redo the homework in my presence and future work as well until trust has been reestablished.

 

Can I just completely digress and say, "Translate 30 sentences, Really? For a 12 yo?

The 30 sentences was for the whole week, but I can suggest that he do a bit a day instead of all on one day. Thank you for the idea.

 

I think you should assign the same homework again. If your son points out that he's already done it, simply tell him you want it done again. He probably won't ask why. If he does, ask him why he thinks you want him to do it again.

Beautiful.

 

May I very very gently say that I believe that it is crucial that you be honest with your son. There is absolutely no way to be certain that he's cheated, and on the off chance that he didn't cheat, punishing him for not "coming clean" may backfire.

Thank you, you are absolutely right.

 

Sue,

 

You've received some good advice, but I just wanted to send a BTDT hug. :001_smile:

 

It's a bummer to find out that on top of teaching Latin, now you have to parent your way through the dishonesty maze. PLEASE know that you are not alone! BTDT! Just push on through, Momma!

 

And be psyched that you homeschool! Once I got over being really ticked off and disgusted with my kid(s) :glare:, I realized that hsing afforded me more power over this than non-hsing parents have. We have the blessed privilege of being in the solidly loop with this stuff - a grand opportunity to raise our kids. They just seem to have NO PLACE TO HIDE, eh?

 

PEACE!

Janice

 

 

Thanks Janice. I know I'm not alone. Actually, I can remember cheating on a math test in 3rd grade and cheating on a French test as a sophomore in college! And, I'm basically a decent person. As is ds. And, homeschooling does make it tough for him to hide. :001_smile:

[Sunshine State Sue]

We gave them the opporutunity to confess, what we KNEW they had done.

The next day. I went and bought another workbook and they started with LEsson 1... all over again... with the understanding... that they would complete it. The other book, was thrown into the trash can. That was hard, because they were 3/4 finished with the material. Never had a problem again!!

They got the point.

Lacy:grouphug:

WOW!