When a child doesn't like to do narration

[sea_mommy]

Any suggestions on how to deal with this (with a 4th grader)?

 

This is what we are currently doing:

 

1. Talking over our daily Bible Reading

2. 1 Narration for History topic of the day (3x week)

3. 3-4 sentences of written narration for assigned reading of the day (usually a chapter out of a book)

4. Casual talking over nightly read aloud to gauge understanding

 

I've dropped the narration of the nightly read aloud and any formal narration of any reading that he's doing for fun.  If ds finds that I'm going to ask for a narration, he literally wants to stop reading a book.  :huh: 

 

I know that "enough" is very subjective, but is what we are doing enough?  Should I be looking for other ways to add more narration? 

 

(Add: He's been doing narration for about a year, but I do acknowledge that maybe it's a bit difficult for him). 

 

 

 

 

[EKS]

My son hated doing narrations the WTM way where he had to tell back each and every history lesson.  What finally worked was that I would have him write one paper per week.  I would pick a topic he had been studying and say "Tell me about..." whatever it was.  And he would be required to write three paragraphs (or whatever was a reasonable amount of writing for is age at the time).  I guess it seemed less restrictive than narration.  I think he also preferred to have an entire topic to work with rather than going lesson by lesson.

[happypamama]

I like Pandia Press's approach of having the student write two facts for every section (usually a chapter or so of SOTW).  That was short enough that it wasn't too tedious, and it let my son pick out what was most interesting to him.

 

If you scroll down a bit on this page, there are some alternative narration ideas.  Perhaps letting him choose a few of those sometimes would be a good alternative to a standard WTM style narration.  http://www.elizabethfoss.com/journal/reallearning/2012/02/could-it-be-a-storybook-year.html

 

Or maybe simply don't require a narration every time.

Edited March 20, 2017 by happypamama

[Rosie_0801]

Does he know what the point of narration is?

[MerryAtHope]

What is it that he doesn't like about narration? What makes it difficult for him? I'd see if there are ways that you can adjust to make it easier/more enjoyable for him.

 

Also, does it make a difference if he narrates something he has read versus a book you are reading to him?

[Jess4879]

Have you tried using a narration jar?  If you google there are tons of ideas to put in them.  This way narrating isn't a "chore".  Each day would be something a little different. 

[TheAttachedMama]

What is it that he doesn't like about narration? What makes it difficult for him? I'd see if there are ways that you can adjust to make it easier/more enjoyable for him.

 

Also, does it make a difference if he narrates something he has read versus a book you are reading to him?

 

Merry is spot on.   You have to figure out what the root cause of the dislike is.  

Does he struggle with comprehension?   Does he struggle with putting his thoughts into words?   Does he just dislike the physical act of writing?  Do you notice a difference in output based on independent reading vs reading aloud?

 

If I were you, I would back up to just doing an oral narration in history and reading.   Practice JUST putting his thoughts into words for awhile.   Not an informal discussion, but a real formal oral narration.   I tell my kids that their oral narration should sound "good enough" to write down on paper.   We actually call it oral composition.  :)   I would remove the paper and pen for awhile and see how he does JUST forming his thoughts into words.  

 

Things to look for:   1)  Can he pull out the main ideas from a text and include them in his narrations?  (Comprehension) 2)  Can he remember key names and places?  (Comprehension)  3)  Are his oral sentences diverse and grammatically correct?  (Forming thoughts into words)  4)  Does he struggle with knowing what to say next?  (Forming thoughts into words.) 

 

I would also cycle through doing two different types of oral narrations:  a detailed (tell me everything you remember about this passage) vs a summary (tell me what happened at the beginning, middle, and end in a few sentences only.)    A detailed narration is great for REALLY knowing what the kid understood and took away from a text.   A summary is great for knowing if the child is able to pull out the most important parts of the story.   

 

(BTW--If you get any attitude when it comes to doing the oral narration, I would then tell him that he can copy your well-written narration or summary instead.   Give him the choice.  )     

 

IF you notice that he is having problems with comprehension, do the following:

1)  Reduce the text that you have him narrate into a smaller chunk.   Maybe just a page or a section instead of an entire chapter.   Maybe even a single paragraph.   Meet him where he is and gradually increase it.

2)  Write the proper nouns from the story on the board before you read.  (or any other key words you see)   Scan through the text and look for any place names or names of people.   Write them on the board and tell him to listen for these places and names.   He can then use those names when giving his narration.

3)  See if you notice a difference in comprehension between listening vs. reading. 

 

IF you notice that he has problems forming his words into thoughts:

1)   Try asking key questions that lead him into what he would most likely want to include in a narration.   Have him answer in complete sentences.  (SOTW AGs do a good job of leading the parent in doing this.)   

2)   It is OK to give as much help as possible.  You can even give him a sentence and have him repeat it back.  That still teaches them.

3)  Give them more practice speaking and doing oral narrations before moving on to written narrations.

 

Writing is mostly thinking and being able to put your thoughts into words.   So it is OK to spend as much time a you need on oral compositions before you have him write those if you need to.

 

---------

 

If you notice that he doesn't struggle with the oral narrations (only the written narrations), you then have to teach him to write those same wonderful thoughts that come out in his oral narrations.    You then have to troubleshoot where he is struggling when it comes to writing his thoughts on paper.

Perhaps his hand gets tired.  He might need more copywork to give him more endurance.   Or perhaps he needs to be able to type his narrations?   

Perhaps it is too hard to both THINK of a narration and write it down at the same time.    You might have to go back to scribing his oral narrations and then having him copy or do them as dictations.

[Guest]

I stopped calling it narration and started calling it summaries. Wording mattered to Monkey and Caboose. That said, they are expected to write a summary (cough, cough) everyday for history. Next round, I'm going to start them doing so for science, as well. This is a valuable notetaking skill that I wnat them to learn and practice. 

[Guest]

My nine year old would rather walk over glass than give a narration.

 

I just don't ask for them any more. He talks nonstop: he gets it.

 

My 7 year old love to give narration. :Shrug:

[8Arrows4theLord]

Some kids take to narration naturally, but others really need to work at it. If he has only been narrating for less than a year, then he is still new at this. Several narrations a day may just be too much for him. Perhaps you could try narrating one subject a day, in the way suggested above by the attatchedmoma. She has some good ideas! Then for his other subjects have him "narrate" in a more creative way. My kids have all enjoyed drawing a picture or diagram about something they learned, learning a song about the topic, or even drawing a comic strip about the events in the lesson. If he gets frustrated getting all his words on paper, you could tell him you will be his "secretary" for the session and he is to dictate his narration to you. Keep the narration passages short and simple to give him confidence. Then increase them as he gets better. We never narrate read a louds, it takes the joy from them.

[sea_mommy]

Thank you for all of the replies!  I've been mulling some things over in my mind this last week and trying to think through the various things that each of you have mentioned.

 

My son hated doing narrations the WTM way where he had to tell back each and every history lesson.  What finally worked was that I would have him write one paper per week.  I would pick a topic he had been studying and say "Tell me about..." whatever it was.  And he would be required to write three paragraphs (or whatever was a reasonable amount of writing for is age at the time).  I guess it seemed less restrictive than narration.  I think he also preferred to have an entire topic to work with rather than going lesson by lesson.

 

 

EKS, What age was your son when he started doing this?  I find that he does a better job when I saw "tell me about . . ." the topic, but I'm not sure that he could do a paper . . . 

 

I like Pandia Press's approach of having the student write two facts for every section (usually a chapter or so of SOTW).  That was short enough that it wasn't too tedious, and it let my son pick out what was most interesting to him.

 

If you scroll down a bit on this page, there are some alternative narration ideas.  Perhaps letting him choose a few of those sometimes would be a good alternative to a standard WTM style narration.  http://www.elizabethfoss.com/journal/reallearning/2012/02/could-it-be-a-storybook-year.html

 

Or maybe simply don't require a narration every time.

 

 

happypamama, He's done better with the "two facts" idea.  Thank you for the alternative ideas.  If I didn't require a narration every time/every day, how often should I do them?

 

Does he know what the point of narration is?

 

Rosie, Good question.  It's just something that we've done, so I guess that I never really explained why.  I just talked with him about it.  He seemed to understand . . .

What is it that he doesn't like about narration? What makes it difficult for him? I'd see if there are ways that you can adjust to make it easier/more enjoyable for him.

 

Also, does it make a difference if he narrates something he has read versus a book you are reading to him?

 

MerryAtHope, He said that it "takes longer" and he'd rather "just read."  Honestly, I'm not sure if it's an issue with difficulty or with laziness.  He does better when we do WWE.  If it's something that he's read on his own, he does better with a "tell me something interesting that you learned approach" rather than an actual narration with completely sentences. 

 

Have you tried using a narration jar?  If you google there are tons of ideas to put in them.  This way narrating isn't a "chore".  Each day would be something a little different. 

 

Jess, I've never heard of this.  Thank you!  I will look it up. 

 

Merry is spot on.   You have to figure out what the root cause of the dislike is.  

Does he struggle with comprehension?   Does he struggle with putting his thoughts into words?   Does he just dislike the physical act of writing?  Do you notice a difference in output based on independent reading vs reading aloud?

 

If I were you, I would back up to just doing an oral narration in history and reading.   Practice JUST putting his thoughts into words for awhile.   Not an informal discussion, but a real formal oral narration.   I tell my kids that their oral narration should sound "good enough" to write down on paper.   We actually call it oral composition.   :)   I would remove the paper and pen for awhile and see how he does JUST forming his thoughts into words.  

 

Things to look for:   1)  Can he pull out the main ideas from a text and include them in his narrations?  (Comprehension) 2)  Can he remember key names and places?  (Comprehension)  3)  Are his oral sentences diverse and grammatically correct?  (Forming thoughts into words)  4)  Does he struggle with knowing what to say next?  (Forming thoughts into words.) 

 

I would also cycle through doing two different types of oral narrations:  a detailed (tell me everything you remember about this passage) vs a summary (tell me what happened at the beginning, middle, and end in a few sentences only.)    A detailed narration is great for REALLY knowing what the kid understood and took away from a text.   A summary is great for knowing if the child is able to pull out the most important parts of the story.   

 

(BTW--If you get any attitude when it comes to doing the oral narration, I would then tell him that he can copy your well-written narration or summary instead.   Give him the choice.  )     

 

IF you notice that he is having problems with comprehension, do the following:

1)  Reduce the text that you have him narrate into a smaller chunk.   Maybe just a page or a section instead of an entire chapter.   Maybe even a single paragraph.   Meet him where he is and gradually increase it.

2)  Write the proper nouns from the story on the board before you read.  (or any other key words you see)   Scan through the text and look for any place names or names of people.   Write them on the board and tell him to listen for these places and names.   He can then use those names when giving his narration.

3)  See if you notice a difference in comprehension between listening vs. reading. 

 

IF you notice that he has problems forming his words into thoughts:

1)   Try asking key questions that lead him into what he would most likely want to include in a narration.   Have him answer in complete sentences.  (SOTW AGs do a good job of leading the parent in doing this.)   

2)   It is OK to give as much help as possible.  You can even give him a sentence and have him repeat it back.  That still teaches them.

3)  Give them more practice speaking and doing oral narrations before moving on to written narrations.

 

Writing is mostly thinking and being able to put your thoughts into words.   So it is OK to spend as much time a you need on oral compositions before you have him write those if you need to.

 

---------

 

If you notice that he doesn't struggle with the oral narrations (only the written narrations), you then have to teach him to write those same wonderful thoughts that come out in his oral narrations.    You then have to troubleshoot where he is struggling when it comes to writing his thoughts on paper.

Perhaps his hand gets tired.  He might need more copywork to give him more endurance.   Or perhaps he needs to be able to type his narrations?   

Perhaps it is too hard to both THINK of a narration and write it down at the same time.    You might have to go back to scribing his oral narrations and then having him copy or do them as dictations.

 

AttachedMama, Thank you for all of the ideas!  I don't think that he struggles with comprehension.  He said that he doesn't like it because it "takes longer" and he'd rather "just read."  So maybe I am just dealing with a laziness issue?  I'm honestly not sure. 

 

He seems to do fine with the written narrations.  He now does them without complaint and is getting better at pulling the main ideas.  Oral narrations seem to be the problem, so maybe I can let him keep doing the written narrations and focus on doing good oral narrations with history? 

 

I stopped calling it narration and started calling it summaries. Wording mattered to Monkey and Caboose. That said, they are expected to write a summary (cough, cough) everyday for history. Next round, I'm going to start them doing so for science, as well. This is a valuable notetaking skill that I wnat them to learn and practice. 

 

Paradox, Is a summary different than the WTM oral narration?

 

My nine year old would rather walk over glass than give a narration.

I just don't ask for them any more. He talks nonstop: he gets it.

My 7 year old love to give narration. :Shrug:

 

okbud, :)  He's not quite there, but it's definitely not his favorite thing.  :)  I can already tell that my second will have no problem at all. 

 

Some kids take to narration naturally, but others really need to work at it. If he has only been narrating for less than a year, then he is still new at this. Several narrations a day may just be too much for him. Perhaps you could try narrating one subject a day, in the way suggested above by the attatchedmoma. She has some good ideas! Then for his other subjects have him "narrate" in a more creative way. My kids have all enjoyed drawing a picture or diagram about something they learned, learning a song about the topic, or even drawing a comic strip about the events in the lesson. If he gets frustrated getting all his words on paper, you could tell him you will be his "secretary" for the session and he is to dictate his narration to you. Keep the narration passages short and simple to give him confidence. Then increase them as he gets better. We never narrate read a louds, it takes the joy from them.

 

 

8arrows, Yes, maybe I have been pushing too hard motivated by the fear that I'm not doing "enough."  Maybe I should drop the written narrations to 3 times/week and then do oral history narrations about 3 times/week as well.  Would that be enough?  My brain is going crazy trying to figure this all out and not wanting to "mess up." 

 

[sea_mommy]

Oops.  Double post.

 

Edited March 26, 2017 by sea_mommy

[EKS]

EKS, What age was your son when he started doing this?  I find that he does a better job when I saw "tell me about . . ." the topic, but I'm not sure that he could do a paper . . . 

 

I think we started with a paragraph and expanded it to three paragraphs over the course of a year.  Maybe starting at age 8 or 9?

 

But you should do whatever works for you child.

Edited March 26, 2017 by EKS

[Oakblossoms]

Maybe just discuss it. Ask a few questions? Start with something you liked or something new you learned from the passage. If all else fails, candy. Candy always works. Susan will agree with me😜

[PeterPan]

Age really matters here, because your ds, as a 4th grader (age 9? 10?) is really on the cusp of outgrowing demand narrations as a developmentally appropriate thing. You're asking for them because you're a newbie, wanting to be thorough, afraid, and he's giving you pushback. The trick to sort through is WHY he's giving you the pushback. Merry started to ask you about this, and I'll take it even farther.

 

-If he goes to a great movie or sporting event and comes home, does he tell you about it? That's narration. Like seriously, if you've got that, then technically he *can* narrate. 

-Kids with ADHD, SLDs (learning disabilities), etc., can find narration crunchy because of the EF (executive function) component. They're having to remember everything, organize it in their brains, put it in order. That's a lot of EF! For some kids, that is what is making it hard. You can provide EF supports and more structure, more clear expectation.

-If his working memory is low, that will make it hard to hold all his thoughts and get them out in order. There are other things, but low working memory would be a really, really common cause. WWE is largely about growing working memory, but playing strategy games would be WAY more fun. Play games with him every day. Like literally, put GAME TIME on your school plan and play a serious strategy game for an hour a day every day! TALK about what you're doing! Watch his language and working memory and ability to hold his thoughts and get them out grow. Way more fun than writing exercises. ;)  Ticket to Ride is a good one for this, but Risk, anything would do.

-Switching to summarizing in 4th is what WTM recommends, yes? Look it up. Someone in the thread suggested it.

-Switching to logic stage analysis and thought could help. He's a 4th grader, not a 6 yo, kwim? Treat him like a 4th grader. He might like to debate, consider cause/effect, answer why. He might like to summarize with some analysis, like what was the major consequence of such and such. 

-Even basic narrations, to be age-appropriate, could be spiced up. We used to recommend Writing Tales a lot around here. WT, CW, a bunch of these programs did some progymnasta exercises where they would retell the story from a different perspective, by beginning in the middle, by changing the setting, etc. These would be age-appropriate things to do! They might shake up his narrations and make them more engaging. Right now, just requiring a basic, boring narration is maybe not developmentally appropriate for him. It's not challenging or interesting. And it's nice to say well SWB said it so you should do it, but really it might be easier to up the challenge and make it more interesting. 

 

My dd has ADHD, and by about age 7 she was DONE with narrations. She previously narrated beautifully, so she could. They were just no longer developmentally appropriate as an exercise for her. She needed more challenge, some interesting aspect to hold her attention. Not every kid will slog through boring exercises simply because they're told to. My dd is quite creative and has an artistic component. It's ok to respect the child and shake things up. Ditch your insecurity!

 

So age 9, what would I do? Well I'd definitely look for something that makes him LIGHT UP while doing the skills you think you need to work on. He needs something with some intrigue. Listmaking would be awesome for that age. What does he like? He likes battles? This is history. Have him make top 20 lists or top 100 lists or top 10 lists. Listmaking is organizing in the brain. Then he can discuss WHY he put those things in that order on the list. ;) Top 20 guns of the Twentieth Century. Top 10 Battles of Ancient Greece, etc. etc. Let him make powerpoints or videos with this! Let him build the scenes with legos and do retellings. Let him debate. I had a debate book I used around that age that was really good. It was something like 50 debates for kids or something, I forget. It's now out of print and expensive, sigh, but the idea is good. He's coming into an age to argue, have opinions, have a slant. Have him retell the story like he's the VICTOR and then again like he's the LOSER. Maybe you both do a telling, one doing the victor and one doing the loser. Then next time you switch! You can do narrations WITH him. :)

 

Find some aspect of creativity or analysis that makes him light up and run with it. It doesn't have to be stodgy or stuffy or on paper to be valuable and to be hitting the necessary foundational skills. Just because WTM says we don't *have* to bring in that creativity doesn't mean we *can't*. With some kids, we really need to! Shake it up.