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Math is the bane of my existence...


bwdiaz
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I have an 8 year old DD who is theoretically finishing second grade soon (depending on how long we take). I'm worried about her Math. It is her least favorite subject, she dawdles, procrastinates, stresses to the point of tears (some manipulation, some real). I cannot figure out her Math style and I've bounced around trying a ton of things. She still counts in her fingers (a lot and even for fairly simple things like 3+4=7) and does not have almost any Math facts memorized. I would say she is a bright but average neurotypical child who enjoys and is compliant with most other subjects except handwriting (which she complies with but doesn't enjoy). [emoji16]

 

She did all of MEP reception in K. We had to take breaks from it a few times which I attributed to her being young. She did more than half of MEP 1 in first. Things got harder and she started having problems. I decided to give her a break and we read Life of Fred Apples and Butterflies, both of which she liked and never had a hard time with (other than learning Math facts or counting on fingers). She willingly does the "your turn to play" problems. I tried to get back to MEP, but it flopped. This finished 1st grade. Over the summer someone gave her one of those BrainQuest grade 1 workbooks and I just gave her free reign to play with it and she did the entire Math section in a week (counting on her fingers) happy and sorry there wasn't more.

 

I ordered Life of Fred Cats and Dogs. I bought the grade 2 BrainQuest book. Deciding she needed mental Math I found out about the Frank Hall books. I personally like vintage texts which we use for some other subjects, and my daughter seems to like old-fashioned stuff like me. So, I downloaded it to my iPad and planned a 2nd grade year where we'd do Frank Hall 3 days a week, Fred one chapter one day a week, and either BrainQuest or math games one day a week (for fact practice). This plan went well for a few weeks and as Frank Hall progressed she slowly rebelled. Tears and drama followed. Attempts to get her to do Khan, Xtra Math, or iPad app games have failed. I bought the C-rod kit and Making Math Meaningful and we had to have some discipline after she literally chucked those on the floor one day in a fit of frustration.[emoji31]

 

So, I'm at a point where we have maybe twelve weeks left of school. The Math section of the BrainQuest book has been finished for ages. She can tell time, measure length, liquids, and cooking ingredients just from doing life stuff. She can count, estimate, put numbers in order, do halves/thirds/and quarters for fractions, understand Math terminology such as greater or less than, fewer or more, etc. She enjoys the Greg Tang and Sir Cumference books, plays Quirkle, tangrams, Shut the Box, Monopoly and lots of card games. She does a daily Sudoku. And we're almost done with Life of Fred Dogs and she still does the problems without hassle (still counting on her fingers, hardly any facts memorized).

 

What the heck is going on?

 

She can clearly do some Math, just not any of the programs I get for her. I'm not sure what to try. I would stick with Fred but it isn't enough practice in my opinion. She also has said she's bad at Math and will never get it and when I point out that Fred and the fun stuff is Math she says games don't count and Fred is reading. (Clearly we need some help with logic too if you know what I mean.[emoji39]) She wants to be an Astronomer when she grows up and seriously thinks if she can't do Math she won't be able to. I don't know if anyone said this to her (I can't think of who) but these "reasons" why Math sucks have been coming out of her for the whole last year.

 

What do you all think? Is this an emotional problem? A maturity problem? A something mom is doing wrong problem? Do I need to try a different program or approach? I'm trying to be patient and loving but I've expended a lot of brainpower on this issue.

 

I don't have a lot of money right now to buy an expensive Math but if I thought it would give her the skills and it would be something she'd stick with a few years then I could probably afford a more expensive program by May but definitely June. So for right now I'd like budget options but I'm willing to consider something pricier for later. She reads age appropriate stuff independently though I still read most school work to her. I'm not thrilled with programs with tons of moving parts (in terms of changing books or pre-planning materials from around the house) but things don't HAVE to be 100% open and go and I do sit with her through Math. She's never been expected to be independent there, and I've collected a bunch of typical math manipulatives over time. I also have a Kindergartener so I can re-use whatever. These are my only two kids.

 

I'm going nuts.

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It looks like it has become a bigger issue in her mind than it needs to be. Do not letting her say she is bad at math. Stop her as soon as she says something. Encourage her by letting her know that everyone learns differently and you just haven't found the way she learns certain math things best yet. I can only say what I would do. I would not let my child count on their fingers and I would stop everything else and concentrate on math facts alone.

You might want to look into something like Addition the Fun Way http://www.citycreek.com/Addition-Basic-Kit-100-p/100.htm, or you can make up your own flash cards. Make each number a character and each problem a story. Make each fact a little cartoon. Getting her involved in this can be a lot of fun and if she comes up with the story she will remember it much better. She obviously doesn't mind math stories so make it as stress free as possible, yet be very strict when it comes to no finger adding and continued practice. Also make sure you take deep breaths and destress yourself when you work on this. Kids feed off of our moods.Tell yourself that she is only 8, math is not ruined for her, and she has plenty of time. This too shall pass  :grouphug: .

Edited by coralloyd
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Dice and domino games will help her visualize and move away from counting on fingers.

 

Is she counting from 1 or is she counting on from the first or the highest number?

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She may need a LOT more time using manipulatives (such as her fingers) before she can picture the numbers in her head.  Not knowing math facts or still needing to count on fingers doesn't mean she can't do well at math.  It is a different process from the conceptual side.  Some kids need a lot more time and frequently need a lot more work with manipulatives before that side sticks.

 

Have you looked at CLE?  Lots of review and they have kids use a lovely math chart as often as they need while the child works on automaticity/memorization of math facts separately.  It is all set up within the lessons themselves so you don't have to build in your own math fact review.  It helps kids who develop these skills asynchronously to be able to keep moving forward conceptually while their brain catches up on the other side.  The addition/subtraction flash cards are also brilliantly set up for helping with this.  

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_subject/4

 

It has a bit different scope and sequence so you might give her the placement test.  If she tests fairly close to a specific level but missed just a few then you might just start her in the first light unit of the level she almost tested into.  After Level 100 all levels start with a review light unit that covers concepts taught at the previous levels.  You can download the test and the answer key.  Here is the diagnostic test:

 

https://www.clp.org/store/by_grade/21

 

CLE might work well.  Get the TM.  It helps with what to do outside of just the material presented in the work book and includes some manipulative work.  She may need more than that, though, so maybe look for games that work on subitization skills/numeracy.  You might look at Soror's Relaxed Math thread.  It is pinned on either the Gen Ed or the K-8 board.

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I would second using manipulatives. I use a lot of cuisenaire rods, but many things work. You can use them with any program.

 

For 3+4, add the 3 rod to the 4 rod to get the 7 rod. While you can do this with your fingers, it's easier to use rods as you get higher than 10. The rods also begin to build place value as you make groups of ten.

 

I use rods for multiplication and everything else also. 4x5 is four - five rods. Line them up and then use the ten rods to figure out how much this is. Then lay out five - four rods and show that four fives is the same as five fours. Use manipulatives for as long as she needs.

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I had an interesting experience with my dd, now 12, with math.  It might not be the same kind of thing, but I'll share it in case anything clicks.

 

We started with Singapore in grade 1, and while she wasn't horrible at it, she never loved it and she could be oppositional.  Over the years she often seemed to take forever, or not be able to get things, etc.  I think, now, that really the issue was she wasn't interested and she hoped I'd give up, or at least she'd get to put it off a bit.

 

She did struggle with times tables, it seemed like no matter what, she couldn't really memorize them.

 

In grade 4, at age 10, we started with MM, instead, I was not liking Singapore.  At that point we were only at about the middle of grade 2.  A few things happened at that point.  One is, I found the program a lot easier to teach and there was more practice.  But also, she suddenly seemed to be able to memorize more, and focus, and so on.  She still didn't enjoy it much, it seemed, but she was doing better.  By the end of grade 5 we finished to the end of level 4 in the program.  Still not great but much faster than she had been going.

 

Anyway, this year for grade 6 she went to public school, and apart for one topic she's done well in math.  She actually seems to be one of the few kids who knows her multiplication well and can figure out the answer quickly if there is a gap, she likes math, and so on.  We worked on long division at home on some snow days (we realized she'd missed it at home and so there was a gap) and she was great to work with, got the concept quickly and had the ability to do the problems because she knew the multiplication.  She even asked if she could do the exercises we skipped on her own.  Her biggest issue at school is being sloppy and making silly mistakes.

 

What I got out of this was the math program needed really to be suited to me, as much as to her.  That in part the issue was that I, as her mom, was someone she felt ok with being difficult for, and that doesn't reflect her math ability so much.  And also - it really seemed like puberty made a big difference in her cognitive abilities with math.

 

So - don't despair!  Difficulties now may not mean all is lost for the future!

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I like Addition Facts that Stick and Subtraction Facts that Stick but it can last longer and you can add other manipulatives like ten frames, an abacus, c-rods or chunky counters arranged in patterns. I did not realize there was a video for them. Definitely watch them. If you cannot buy it right now just work on substidizing with ten frames, an abacus and counters or use c-rods and watch some of the videos from Education Unboxed and do some of the videos that work for the stage she is at. I start with subsidizing work then extend that to addition and subtraction. You can even do it alongside another curriculum.

Edited by MistyMountain
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Understanding math and learning math facts are two different balls of wax. For moving forward in math conceptually, I would use any tools she needed for computation. It could be as cheap as a bag of beans from the store as counters or drawing your own number line on a piece of cardboard or paper that she can use. From what you said, it doesn't seem like you are having other math problems besides math facts and some math resistance? She is adding and subtracting and learning basic algorithms? I didn't see any basic arithmetic mentioned in your list?

 

Some children have brains that process information differently. My daughter is a highly visual spatial learner and she needs to see (and sometimes touch!) the picture the math is drawing. She still counts on her fingers or uses a number line at 13 in pre-Algebra. Interestingly enough we did try one of those math fact programs that has the cute little stories and rhymes and she could remember every single story (astonishingly learning all the characters, stories and rhymes for every multiplication fact within a couple of days after 2 years of trying the traditional math fact route). She can memorize a long complicated story about the characters 2 and 7 and their interaction and tell you everything about the story and get the correct answer. But guess what? That is not faster than skip counting or adding on her fingers! Her way was already more efficient. We dropped the forced math facts. She learned them her way but it did not help us do math any faster.

 

We have recently discovered the soroban (Japanese abacus). It starts with some basic adding and subtracting of ones and tens without regrouping using the abacus. Then it has you visualize the abacus and the beads with your eyes closed and do the same computations. My child who cannot add 7 and 4 without using her fingers closes her eyes and adds and subtracts a list of four two digit numbers and gives the correct answer in seconds. She can see the beads and manipulate them in her mind quite easily. A child's mind is a fascinating thing to study. An abacus is very inexpensive also and might help. I really wish I had discovered the soroban when she was younger.

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Sorry for not replying sooner, the weekend has gotten in the way! I'm replying in two posts because when I try to do one, the Tapatalk app is giving me a weird error message.

 

Getting her involved in this can be a lot of fun and if she comes up with the story she will remember it much better. She obviously doesn't mind math stories so make it as stress free as possible, yet be very strict when it comes to no finger adding and continued practice. Also make sure you take deep breaths and destress yourself when you work on this. Kids feed off of our moods.Tell yourself that she is only 8, math is not ruined for her, and she has plenty of time. This too shall pass :grouphug: .

Thank you for your recommendation, I'd not heard of that program before, I'll look into it. You're right, math isn't ruined and she does like stories.

 

Dice and domino games will help her visualize and move away from counting on fingers.

 

Is she counting from 1 or is she counting on from the first or the highest number?

She's counting from 1. I keep trying to explain that she could start at 4 and just go 5, 6, 7 but she really doesn't seem to get that and never does it.

 

To be clear, I don't think I would be so freaked out about the reliance on her fingers if it seemed like they really helped but each addition or subtraction problem is like re-inventing the wheel.

 

She may need a LOT more time using manipulatives (such as her fingers) before she can picture the numbers in her head. Not knowing math facts or still needing to count on fingers doesn't mean she can't do well at math. It is a different process from the conceptual side. Some kids need a lot more time and frequently need a lot more work with manipulatives before that side sticks.

Can you tell me more about the difference between Math concepts vs. whatever this process is called that she is struggling with?

 

Have you looked at CLE? Lots of review and they have kids use a lovely math chart as often as they need while the child works on automaticity/memorization of math facts separately. It is all set up within the lessons themselves so you don't have to build in your own math fact review. It helps kids who develop these skills asynchronously to be able to keep moving forward conceptually while their brain catches up on the other side. The addition/subtraction flash cards are also brilliantly set up for helping with this.

 

...

 

CLE might work well. Get the TM. It helps with what to do outside of just the material presented in the work book and includes some manipulative work. She may need more than that, though, so maybe look for games that work on subitization skills/numeracy.

Thanks for the recommendation, I'm going to check it out but it made me nervous that it said it was Biblical on the first link you posted. I don't have a problem with having a little religion in our Math, Life of Fred isn't secular. But we're Jewish, and I would be stressed out if the text really is extremely Christian. If it's a little reference here or there, that's fine - we do use other Christian curricula when that is the best thing for us, but it wouldn't work for all the pages and examples to be about that. In your opinion, should I continue looking at CLE? I'm planning to spend some time reading the relaxed Math thread tomorrow.

 

I would second using manipulatives. I use a lot of cuisenaire rods, but many things work. You can use them with any program.

 

 

Thanks for your input. I do have some cuisenaire rods. We bought this kit a while back

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008N1847O/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_vkKSybHSWBQFK but it hasn't really been used much other than for play. She gets really hung up on the colors, but it has been a long time since I tried to use them during a lesson.

 

I really like this video (and the subtraction one) on the Well Trained Mind's Youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyGhPDraRrw&t=1241s for learning addition facts.

Thank you for the video. You know, I think I remember her books coming out a while back but I'd forgotten about them. Did you have a child with this issue as well? Off to watch... Edited by bwdiaz
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What I got out of this was the math program needed really to be suited to me, as much as to her. That in part the issue was that I, as her mom, was someone she felt ok with being difficult for, and that doesn't reflect her math ability so much. And also - it really seemed like puberty made a big difference in her cognitive abilities with math.

 

So - don't despair! Difficulties now may not mean all is lost for the future!

Well I am thankful you shared your experience. I personally didn't really have issues using MEP and I liked that it made her puzzle through things (even though I did feel it was a lot of work). Life of Fred, the Frank Hall text, and the Brain Quest workbook are all easy for me to teach from as well. None of those seem to be helping her be more confident or increase her ability, nor are they very cohesive. But what you and coralloyod shared do help me feel like I should be patient.

 

I start with subsidizing work then extend that to addition and subtraction. You can even do it alongside another curriculum.

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean by subsidizing work? Could you tell me a little more about that please?

 

I'd get a Rightstart abacus. Work with her on recognising the various quantities of beads. Once she can recognise them without counting, I'd have her use that. Every time she counts on fingers, redirect to the abacus.

Thanks for the suggestion.

 

Understanding math and learning math facts are two different balls of wax. For moving forward in math conceptually, I would use any tools she needed for computation. It could be as cheap as a bag of beans from the store as counters or drawing your own number line on a piece of cardboard or paper that she can use. From what you said, it doesn't seem like you are having other math problems besides math facts and some math resistance? She is adding and subtracting and learning basic algorithms? I didn't see any basic arithmetic mentioned in your list?

So, are you saying that she conceptually understand math or that she doesn't and her problem is Math concepts? I'm confused. Yes you understood me, I don't feel she has other problems besides the Math facts and some resistance. I have the idea that the Math resistance is because of the Math facts, though I'm not sure why I think that, nor would she be able to articulate that herself. You said you didn't see basic arithmetic in my list, yes, my list was stuff she does seem to understand and I guess I'm unclear as to whether she intrinsically understands addition and subtraction (as ideas) or if she seems that way because she can't recall the facts when needed. How might I figure that out?

 

Some children have brains that process information differently. My daughter is a highly visual spatial learner and she needs to see (and sometimes touch!) the picture the math is drawing. She still counts on her fingers or uses a number line at 13 in pre-Algebra. Interestingly enough we did try one of those math fact programs that has the cute little stories and rhymes and she could remember every single story (astonishingly learning all the characters, stories and rhymes for every multiplication fact within a couple of days after 2 years of trying the traditional math fact route). She can memorize a long complicated story about the characters 2 and 7 and their interaction and tell you everything about the story and get the correct answer. But guess what? That is not faster than skip counting or adding on her fingers! Her way was already more efficient. We dropped the forced math facts. She learned them her way but it did not help us do math any faster.

 

We have recently discovered the soroban (Japanese abacus). It starts with some basic adding and subtracting of ones and tens without regrouping using the abacus. Then it has you visualize the abacus and the beads with your eyes closed and do the same computations. My child who cannot add 7 and 4 without using her fingers closes her eyes and adds and subtracts a list of four two digit numbers and gives the correct answer in seconds. She can see the beads and manipulate them in her mind quite easily. A child's mind is a fascinating thing to study. An abacus is very inexpensive also and might help. I really wish I had discovered the soroban when she was younger.

What's the difference between the Soroban abacus and the RightStart abacus Kiara recommends? And thanks for the anecdote. I definitely don't mind tool as long as she understands why or how she's using them. I wish I understood her learning style better. How did you figure it out with your daughter? I have to say, I'm not sure if the cute stories would sidetrack her or not as they did with your daughter. I wonder if that is why Life of Fred is not really having the impact I hoped.

 

---

 

I really appreciate that you all took the time to help me with this. It has really been worrying me. Is the consensus to let her use her fingers or not? coralloyed is the only one who posted that it was a bad idea. Pros and cons? Also, do I just have her take a break from Math while I'm figuring out what approach to go with or not?

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Sorry for not replying sooner, the weekend has gotten in the way! I'm replying in two posts because when I try to do one, the Tapatalk app is giving me a weird error message.

 

Thank you for your recommendation, I'd not heard of that program before, I'll look into it. You're right, math isn't ruined and she does like stories.

 

She's counting from 1. I keep trying to explain that she could start at 4 and just go 5, 6, 7 but she really doesn't seem to get that and never does it.

 

To be clear, I don't think I would be so freaked out about the reliance on her fingers if it seemed like they really helped but each addition or subtraction problem is like re-inventing the wheel.

 

Can you tell me more about the difference between Math concepts vs. whatever this process is called that she is struggling with?

 

Thanks for the recommendation, I'm going to check it out but it made me nervous that it said it was Biblical on the first link you posted. I don't have a problem with having a little religion in our Math, Life of Fred isn't secular. But we're Jewish, and I would be stressed out if the text really is extremely Christian. If it's a little reference here or there, that's fine - we do use other Christian curricula when that is the best thing for us, but it wouldn't work for all the pages and examples to be about that. In your opinion, should I continue looking at CLE? I'm planning to spend some time reading the relaxed Math thread tomorrow.

 

O.k. now that you are saying she has to keep counting from 1 instead of breaking the numbers into sections and being able to count on from, say, a group of 4, that seems to indicate to me that she has weak subitization skills.  She may need a program that will walk her very specifically through understanding the basic building blocks of math, either on the side or alongside a more standard math program.

 

You might look at running your child through the Ronit Bird e-books to solidify her subitization skills.  She seems to be glitching at that level even though she is able to move forward in other ways.  You might look at Exploring Numbers Through Dot Patterns to start with.  I linked the e-books below.

 

http://www.ronitbird.com/ebooks/#ebook1

 

As for CLE, it periodically has some references to God but if you skip the beginning story of each light unit it really didn't seem very intense at all to me.  It is mostly just math problems.  Easy to edit out if you need to.  The beauty of CLE is that it is easy to slow down or accelerate (just post and others can help you if you aren't sure how) and it has math fact practice structured separately from the main lesson.  A lot of kids need quite a bit of time to learn math facts to automaticity.  CLE recognizes that and has a beautiful system in place for helping them get there while still allowing them to move forward with the conceptual and algorithmic parts without being slowed down by a lack of memorized math facts.  Those usually come with time and exposure.

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One of my children has done great with MEP. but my youngest did not follow suit even though I slowed it down and did more hands on math for 2nd and 3rd grade. I switched her to CLE, the 200 level, mid year 3rd grade. She is doing better with CLE. She is an artsy, crafty, compassionate, talented child who likely will thrive more in non-STEM areas as she matures. She needs the review, drill, and the slow approach to multi-step math problems found in CLE. I use manipulatives and hands on demos for some of the lessons, but she usually "gets" the CLE lessons from reading the instructions in the workbook just as well as using the the trillion manipulatives I loved using to enhance the MEP lessons.

 

I am a Christian, so can't tell you if there are too many references to Christianity for you. I understand several people who otherwise insist on secular materials are fine with CLE math.

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Watching that video that was posted I had the term wrong. It is subitizing. It means working with a ten frame, abacus, dice, dominoes and work on being able to recognize numbers without counting them grouped in ways to make it easier to see. You see what she can recognize and work up from there until she can recognize numbers to 10 at first and then to 20. Also it is good if they can recognize that smaller groups of numbers can be made up of other smaller numbers. I agree about the suggestion of Ronit Bird too.

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I think either abacus would work fine for her. My kids were just particularly interested in the soroban style.

 

I think if she is struggling to memorize math facts, you can make those their own little practice section of math each day. But for whatever main math program you are using, the manipulatives may really help her and make it more fun. Then she can move forward with math.

 

Memorizing math facts does not equal understanding math. It just makes computation faster which can be a big help when math gets longer and more involved. It is certainly worth the time if she is able to learn them. But everything doesn't have to stop in math while she gets those down, and some kids really struggle with those kind of rote memory tasks.

 

Math u see might be another program to look at for her. It is very visual and uses manipulatives.

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I found learning styles hard to pinpoint in lower elementary. The longer you work with her the more you will learn how she learns. Every struggle or success you have is a little more information about how her brain works. It was hard to tell with my kids until 4th-5th grade, although I knew something was going on with my daughter in third grade as we were floundering with math facts and spelling. I finally figured out she is a right brained, highly visual-spatial learner and so I researched how that learning style learns best. I used techniques that I read about and voila- break through!

 

It is so different than how I learn, it really feels like mental gymnastics to me trying to keep up with her, lol...

Edited by CaliforniaDreaming
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I wouldn't worry too, too much about counting on fingers if she is good at the other conceptual math. The math facts will come. I used to be horrible at math calculations and had to work them out on my fingers ever single time, yet I was always in the most advanced math class the district would permit. I now know that I was bad at math facts because I didn't want to write an answer unless I was absolutely certain that the answer was correct.  So even though 24 would pop into my head as the answer to 6x4, i couldn't be positive. So I always worked out the answers that I couldn't visualize by counting on my fingers in elementary school and by drawing dot diagrams (similar to the patterns on dice) in middle school. And of course, that took time, so I never did well on timed tests, even though every answer I wrote down was correct. Other kids would write down the first number that popped into their heads and would get better scores than me, but they would miss a few problems sometimes. Which is better? I'm not sure.

 

What I know now is that kids, usually, cannot visualize math problems beyond their own age. If they can remember the answer to 9+8, they may be remembering the word pattern more than they are understanding the math behind it. So your daughter is 8, she should be able to know the answer to 5+3, 6+2, 10-2, etc... Everything else, she may need to work out. Teaching her to skip count will help with multiplication. (Don't just do 2s, 3s, 5s, and 10s--skip count all of the numbers!) Using manipulatives will help her visualize math also. Try her out with a variety of manipulatives to see what she responds best to. You say you have manipulatives so you can try whatever you have: abacus, cusinaire rods, base 10 blocks, ten frames, or place value disks. Dominoes and dice are good, too.

 

Let her have a 10 minute warm up for math with a computer game. AbcYa.com has plenty to choose from. My son, who is also poor at calculations, picks up speed and accuracy when I have him do math games. He gets annoyed with just one or two math apps to choose from, so AbcYa has been a great help in that area.

 

We had to switch math programs a few times before we settled on Singapore. I like that it incorporated hands on and visual learning before throwing kids numbers and word problems.

 

Good luck. No subject will make you want to bang your head against the wall like math!  :banghead:

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Typically, children with maths SLD struggle with estimation, reading analog clocks, the concept of fractions, and learning basic math facts. Fundamentally, these students struggle with subitizing. Your student should be able to look at the dice patterns of 1, 2, 3, or 4 and instantly tell you the correct number. If she cannot do that, then you need to work on basic subitizing activities.

If she can instantly recognize the patterns to 5, maybe work on + 1, 2 number sense activities. Get the 10s complement facts down first and then build numbers to 20.

 

Make things fun. I would not spend over 10-15 minutes, and I'd include hot tea and graham crackers. You can print up and laminate your own 10 frames and number lines. My DD used to love to roll dice and build two and three digit numbers using MUS blocks.

 

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS709US709&hl=en-US&ei=cie0WKOrA8femAHa4agQ&q=10+frames+printable&oq=10nframes&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.3.0i13k1l5.10318.17072.0.21672.32.30.1.0.0.0.442.5019.1j22j3j2j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..21.11.1333.3..0j35i39k1j0i20k1j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i67k1j0i13i30k1j0i13i5i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0bYV6Dl3vsI#imgrc=LCIgDfQVzdg04M:

https://www.google.com/search?q=roll+it+make+it+expand+it&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS709US709&oq=roll+it+make+it+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.9653j1j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=d8c5Ng3PjlDMbM:

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Jumping to the end here, but the Ronit Birds Dots ebook is under $10 and exactly what you're needing. It might be time to consider evals for SLDs. What you're talking about, at least to me, is beyond the realm of normal. You could also get her vision checked by a developmental optometrist to make sure there's not a developmental vision issue (convergence, etc.) affecting say her visual memory and hence her retention. Her number sense seems intact, if she's doing LoF, etc. So if it's only the actual memorization of the facts, she could turn out to have low working memory, poor visual memory, maybe some ADHD.

 

And, fwiw, my dd was like that, really crunchy on facts. She turned out to be super bright with ADHD. The poor working memory makes it hard to get things into their long-term memory. She also turned out to have the visual memory of a *2 year old* when we had her vision thorough evaled by a dev. optom. at age 10. But those are things you can actually work on, kwim? Working memory, visual memory, these are things you can improve. My dd also had wicked low processing speed because of the ADHD, so even though she knew stuff it was just really slow to come out.

 

My ds, just to contrast, has SLD math and knows his facts just fine. I used Ronit Bird with him. :D And with him we've done tons of working on working memory, visual memory, RAN/RAS (rapid naming), etc. So evals really help you pinpoint exactly what is going on. You can have your lifestyle approach. That's how I teach my ds too! But you really want some evals at this point to help you TARGET whatever is going on.

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Typically, children with maths SLD struggle with estimation, reading analog clocks, the concept of fractions, and learning basic math facts. Fundamentally, these students struggle with subitizing. Your student should be able to look at the dice patterns of 1, 2, 3, or 4 and instantly tell you the correct number. If she cannot do that, then you need to work on basic subitizing activities.

If she can instantly recognize the patterns to 5, maybe work on + 1, 2 number sense activities. Get the 10s complement facts down first and then build numbers to 20.

 

Make things fun. I would not spend over 10-15 minutes, and I'd include hot tea and graham crackers. You can print up and laminate your own 10 frames and number lines. My DD used to love to roll dice and build two and three digit numbers using MUS blocks.

 

https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS709US709&hl=en-US&ei=cie0WKOrA8femAHa4agQ&q=10+frames+printable&oq=10nframes&gs_l=mobile-gws-serp.1.3.0i13k1l5.10318.17072.0.21672.32.30.1.0.0.0.442.5019.1j22j3j2j1.29.0....0...1c.1.64.mobile-gws-serp..21.11.1333.3..0j35i39k1j0i20k1j0i131k1j0i10k1j0i67k1j0i13i30k1j0i13i5i30k1j0i8i13i30k1.0bYV6Dl3vsI#imgrc=LCIgDfQVzdg04M:

https://www.google.com/search?q=roll+it+make+it+expand+it&rlz=1C9BKJA_enUS709US709&oq=roll+it+make+it+&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.9653j1j4&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#imgrc=d8c5Ng3PjlDMbM:

 

This is the stuff Ronit Bird Dots will give you, complete with games, and it's under $10. 

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Neither of my kids has ever been happy with any math program I've ever done...ok I take that back my son liked Miquon...

 

Honestly, just pick something that makes sense to you and has plenty of review, and stick with it.  The more you hop around, the worse it'll be for her.  

 

Also there is NO math program that in and of itself will teach the multiplication facts and review them enough, in the program.  THat absolutely has to be a thing that you dedicate extra time to on the side and then follow up with (yes, literally) and entire year, to two years of 100 mixed facts sheets.

 

The addition and subtraction facts are a little easier and she may be able to memorize them once she's using a math book that logically and consistently requires the use of said facts.

 

My dd did great with Horizons from 1-pre-Alg...horizons moves very fast and has lots of color and plenty of review

 

My son, who was not as good at rote memory, did better with Saxon, (and he has hated it all the way but we switched twice only to keep going back...) Saxon moves slower and in smaller pieces and also has plenty of mixed review every day, and plenty of math facts practice for addition and subtraction.  I think it would be good for your dd.

 

Another option is CLE which is black and white, but is somewhere between Saxon and Horizons as far as style.  It focuses more on one topic at a time, like Horizons, but is black and white and includes more facts practice, like Saxon. I think one day's lesson is four pages and it's always the same every day so kids know what to expect.  You can use the Time Timer and give her a break between each page.  YOu may have to place her into a lower level, so that she feels confident.  

 

No matter what program you choose, be sure to use the placement test!!

 

I know there are all kinds of fun, creative ways to "do math" but for me just being consistent has paid off.  My dd is now taking an only Pre Algebra class nad getting all A's and my son is going to community college next year and passed the online practice placement test for college math, in 9th grade.

 

 

 

So really, just pick something that seems more her style and stick with it.

 

 

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I just wanted to thank you all for your thoughtful comments and replies. I did a lot of poking around the Ronit Bird reccomendations and while it doesn't seem like (according to her) my daughter would categorically be considered dyscalculic she definitely has all the subitization problems you guys described. I bought the 10$ ebook and I'm working through it implementing her ideas. I may also get one of the expensive Amazon books if it seems like she's not improving by say Memorial Day or so.

 

So, my plan at this point, is to do Ronit Bird directed Math games every morning for a few weeks. Just that. We'll take a break for Passover. After that I'm thinking I'll resume Fred since she loves it, one chapter a week (same pace as now), play Ronit Bird and some Education Unboxed directed games 3 times a week, and on the 5th day play an unrelated Math game from Kitchen Table Math or Peggy Kaye's Games for Math. Or just fun games like Yahtzee or Shut the Box or Uno or War or whatever. I'll follow that plan till Memorial Day.

 

At that point I'll reevaluate how she's doing. We school during the summer. If it's going well, I may consider doing Fred once a week, a variety of Math games three times a week, and then start working through the Kate Snow book at an undetermined pace one day a week. I'll do that all summer and if it's going well I'll consider the issue of curriculum then.

 

I did see some samples of CLE that I understand better and it doesn't seem to have any more Christian content than Fred (which is fine in my view) so I may try the placement test for it in the summer. I've also been reading around a lot and may consider Shiller. I have a younger daughter than the one we've been discussing that I think might do well with Shiller so I'd feel pretty good about spending the money. I don't know. All this depends on how things go with the Ronit Bird stuff. If we are heading into July and things are still looking bad despite diligent use of Ronit Bird then I may consider getting her tested and avail myself of school district resources next academic year.

 

Thanks again and I'll check this thread often in case anyone thinks of anything else. I feel pretty good about the plan though, my daughter enjoyed the first few days of dice games last week, and I'm much less worried than when I first posted.

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I think you're being too schizophrenic in your approach. If she needs Ronit Bird, you have a serious issue going on. I think you ought to consider getting evals to get names for whatever is going on. If you can afford private, do private. If not, you can make a written request through the ps.

 

I have all the printed books by Ronit Bird and like them a lot, but you need to know that she made her ebooks (Dots, C-Rods, Multi-) to cover the major content from her first printed book. In other words, you don't need to buy the printed book. You need to work through her three inexpensive ebooks and her free Card Games ebook.

 

And when I say work through them, I mean by really diligent and MILK them! You need to use RB Dots every single day. Don't jump. If you want to do your other things, that's fine, but do them on Fridays after you play your RB games. The games are deceptively simple. Push forward and do RB activities every single day. Remember, I've taught through all the levels of math now with my dd. When I come to math with my ds with SLDs, I look at something simple like RB and I don't think oh, that's simple, not enough. I go WOW, I can extend it to this and this and this...

 

THAT is how you need to think of RB. Do the RB activity and then think how can I extend this? You can play other games. You can turn it into written facts and put them in the Fast Facts app to drill. You can use that skill in measuring. You can extend it to telling time. You can practice it with money. Whatever it is, take that skill and translate it to other areas to cover the other topics that would have been in a math curriculum. 

 

By the time you get through Dots, you should be able to have her doing all her addition facts in the Fast Facts app. Absolutely. And then there's a card game in the RB card games ebook (free!) that is called Turnovers I think. You play it with ante poker cards. They're super cheap to buy on ebay. I like them because they're skinny. Anyways, play that turnovers game, and boom you've taught her negative numbers. So now she's able to do all her SUBTRACTION facts and basic single digit add/subtr with positive and negative numbers. And all you did was finish Dots and play one extra game, kwim?

 

That's why you want to stay focused and not be so schizophrenic. I get why you're liking LoF. I got some. I'm just saying it's a distraction for you. If Dots is what she needs, do Dots. Milk it, go deep. In C-Rods you can take that all the way to 4-digit add/subtr. That really bogged down my ds, so we paused. I've been playing fraction war with him. I have no clue if RB teaches it, but I made it up, lol. We flip two cards, make the fraction, and cmopare. We have the RightStart hardwood fractions puzzle, which you can't even find anymore but which is AWESOME. So he's estimating, subtracting fractions, comparing, reducing, figuring out common denominators. I just keep extending and extending it. One game, and we've played it for WEEKS. And we'll keep milking it till his brain pops. Then at some point I'll go hey, what would that look like if we WROTE it? Then boom, he'll be doing written fractions. And all we ever did was play that crazy little game. :D

 

You don't ned the education unboxed stuff. Focus on RB. If RB fits, focus on it. The reason is because RB is specifically meant for dyscalculia and going to catch all her little holes in how her brain understands the concepts. So any time not doing RB is delaying getting back to working on that.

 

Shut the Box is fine, but it's a low step. If you can find Go Nuts, it's a better game and more profitable to her right now. Also play games that require her to read the dice without counting. Shut the Box or Yahtzee work for that. My ds is a huge Trouble fan. It has the ball that you pop. Main thing with any of those games is to get them to read without counting the dots.

 

I didn't really say this but implied it. You don't need to do any written math for a while. I would skip curriculum and focus on getting through Dots. Then, as you do approach the end of Dots, whip out a small whiteboard and lay the dots down and say hey, what would it look like if we tried to write this? Do it that way, dots to written, written to dots. Just on a whiteboard.

 

I have my ds use pages of Daily Problem Solving math from Teacher Created Resources. Not expensive and just enough. We actually use a lot from TCR.

 

I've done private $$$ evals with my kdis and evals through the ps. Your ps may try to punt in the summer, and they may require RTI before they're willing to test. Remember that the IEP process can take 120 days. If your dc needs Ronit Bird, you've got a serious issue going on, sorry. Personally, I'd get those evals started. It will probably be two months before they get anything done anyway through the ps. And a private psych will usually have a 1-3 month wait or more. So if you start now, it will be June/July before anything gets done.

 

I thin your approach has been schizophrenic enough that the ps may require RTI before the test. See, but I'm just saying. Our ps wanted to see what I had done. Also, with a very young child, the intervention of RB, which is specifically meant for dyscalculia, is going to shift the bar and make the math SLD harder to diagnose. That happened to us in our first evals, where I had been using RB and the psych was like what are you complaining about, he tests fine! I'm like HELLO, he has a gifted IQ and we spent a MONTH trying to understand the number 5 when he was 5. That's not normal for that IQ, lol. But RB, even for a few months, was enough to shift his scores enough that he was harder to diagnose.

 

There actually is some research being done about ways to diagnose SLD math. It's not like dyslexia (SLD reading) where they have a CTOPP. Until now, there was just discrepancy in test scores. That's why they might ask for RTI first, to see if it's due to a lack of instruction. So now there *is* a test. RB has written about it on her FB page. It looks at number sense. But just in general, you do RB for a few months with a young dc, and you may move the bar enough you don't get it diagnosed.

 

So I would do a normal curriculum, get evals, THEN begin RB if you want the most precise answer. If you can find that link and do the free test, that would be interesting. You could email her and she would send you the link.

 

The other thing to be aware of is that kids often have things co-morbid. Whether it's SLD math or not, you're probably going to learn some things when you eval. I would definitely be pursuing evals.

 

 

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