vaquitita Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) This is the first year my 5th grader has done a formal grammar program. (I never studied grammar formally in school) In past years we read Ruth Heller and Bryan Cleary books, did Mad Libs, read GrammarLand. This year he's doing ELTL level 3. He's done well with the grammar for the first part of the year, but now that we're mid way thru he's starting to struggle. There are more things to remember for diagramming. I don't think he's really understood the definitions for some of the grammar terms and so is forgetting them now that more is being thrown at him. The grammar definitions probably are using correct vocabulary, but they seem very formal and not very kid friendly. Figuring out sentences that have a helping verb, adverb, and then verb are tripping him up. But today one of his sentences had a direct object and he couldn't figure out what to do with it. The sentence was "You have had a sleep!". I think part of the problem is he's just not interested. Still, it seems like it could be presented in a more straight forward manner? Eta: I'm not sold on diagramming as a necessity. I never learned to diagram, and I don't feel the lack. Lol. I'm wondering if something like IEW's Fix It would suit us better. Edited February 7, 2017 by vaquitita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackie Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I've never used, or even seen, ELTL. Michael Clay Thompson's language arts were a very natural transition from our earlier use of Brian Cleary and Ruth Heller. DD still struggled a bit with prepositions, but the rest of it seems to have worked well for her. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 FWIW, we are using Fix-it here and it is pretty painless. 15 min a day, 4 days a week. I feel pretty strongly that unless someone just really loves grammar the purpose of learning grammar is to get better at writing and understanding written language, not to be able to diagram a sentence down to the nth degree. For those that love it, great! For those that it holds no interest, there are many ways to learn grammar without diagramming. Fix-it is one of them. On a side note, the new version is the one I am talking about. The old one is not considered a complete grammar program. The first book is very basic so if you do consider using it make sure that you give the placement test. I will say that DD and DS did much better taking small pieces, going pretty gently through, and building up their knowledge over time. Lots of built in review. It helped tremendously with retention and internalizing all of the terms and rules and actually applying that understanding in their writing. You only have to buy the TM. That gives you access to the student pages for free. Just print them out as you need them. That also gives you a chance to print them out multiple times if needed (page got spilled on, student made a lot of mistakes and needs to repeat the lesson, you want the practice yourself, you need to use the program with more than one child, etc.). They also offer a money back guarantee so if you feel it isn't worth it, you haven't lost a lot. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EndOfOrdinary Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 We have really liked the formal definitions because of how they apply to foriegn language. Ds' transition to learning Latin, Spanish, and soon French have been greatly aided by knowing exactly the difference between a transitive, intransative, and linking verb. However, if your child does not have much foreign language in his future, this is probably overkill. Is he learning Latin? It really, really helps there. For some, grammar learned through Latin is better than taking apart the English. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OneStepAtATime Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 We have really liked the formal definitions because of how they apply to foriegn language. Ds' transition to learning Latin, Spanish, and soon French have been greatly aided by knowing exactly the difference between a transitive, intransative, and linking verb. However, if your child does not have much foreign language in his future, this is probably overkill. Is he learning Latin? It really, really helps there. For some, grammar learned through Latin is better than taking apart the English. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clemsondana Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 We have used a simple, straightforward grammar (Growing with Grammar) because my kids do fine with it and it was quick and got the job done. In an effort to help my older child with writing, we tried out MCT's series this year, and WOW. We've been using the whole program, but the grammar part has really impressed me. My kid doesn't complain about it, and has really gotten a good grasp on what part of speech each word is and what their role in the senetence is. It doesn't teach diagramming, so I may use a diagramming book at some point. It's one of the few elementary school books that left me feeling like I had a much better understanding of the subject when we got to the end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikslo Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 MCT gets done here happily, no complaints. Which is huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 (edited) This is the first year my 5th grader has done a formal grammar program. (I never studied grammar formally in school) In past years we read Ruth Heller and Bryan Cleary books, did Mad Libs, read GrammarLand. This year he's doing ELTL level 3. He's done well with the grammar for the first part of the year, but now that we're mid way thru he's starting to struggle. There are more things to remember for diagramming. I don't think he's really understood the definitions for some of the grammar terms and so is forgetting them now that more is being thrown at him. The grammar definitions probably are using correct vocabulary, but they seem very formal and not very kid friendly. Figuring out sentences that have a helping verb, adverb, and then verb are tripping him up. But today one of his sentences had a direct object and he couldn't figure out what to do with it. The sentence was "You have had a sleep!". I think part of the problem is he's just not interested. Still, it seems like it could be presented in a more straight forward manner? Eta: I'm not sold on diagramming as a necessity. I never learned to diagram, and I don't feel the lack. Lol. I'm wondering if something like IEW's Fix It would suit us better. I don't think you have to teach diagramming to teach the parts of sentences and how to recognize them. So I think you should shore up the bolded. It's one of those things...you just really can't move on til it's locked in there. This is where "programs" are difficult, because the program has to keep going. But sometimes the student needs to stop and work 30 or 100 examples for a couple weeks before they get it. And I don't understand for the life of me how anyone actually picks up knowledge of grammar from things like Grammarland (or MCT! don't think less of me, friends :laugh: )! It's so many words ykwim? And only some of them are actually conveying the facts you need. My brain just doesn't get it :) I feel like ELTL can be that way a little bit. There's just a lot going on, and some people (me) have little brain compartments for new info. "this is grammar" this is story" this is composition" etc...and it only gets integrated once it's all down pat. Double ditto to the Latin thing EndofOrdinary said. My nine year old is new to Latin, but the grammar is like BOOM! in your face and you need to either know it, or learn it right meow. Which makes it sound like a horrible, affronting slog. But it's not because it's ONE THING at a time ykwim? One thing with nearly immediate results: learning something new in Latin. Unlike doing it all in English, where the only "result" is now knowing a technical term for a word you already understood in a sentence you immediately grasped the second it hit your eyeballs. Edited February 7, 2017 by OKBud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamamoose Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 I agree learning Latin has helped immensely. I like the Memoria Press Latin and grammar programs together--memorization of terms along with practical application in both English and Latin has moved dd11 along the path nicely. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Another Lynn Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 This is the first year my 5th grader has done a formal grammar program. (I never studied grammar formally in school) In past years we read Ruth Heller and Bryan Cleary books, did Mad Libs, read GrammarLand. This year he's doing ELTL level 3. He's done well with the grammar for the first part of the year, but now that we're mid way thru he's starting to struggle. There are more things to remember for diagramming. I don't think he's really understood the definitions for some of the grammar terms and so is forgetting them now that more is being thrown at him. The grammar definitions probably are using correct vocabulary, but they seem very formal and not very kid friendly. Figuring out sentences that have a helping verb, adverb, and then verb are tripping him up. But today one of his sentences had a direct object and he couldn't figure out what to do with it. The sentence was "You have had a sleep!". I think part of the problem is he's just not interested. Still, it seems like it could be presented in a more straight forward manner? Eta: I'm not sold on diagramming as a necessity. I never learned to diagram, and I don't feel the lack. Lol. I'm wondering if something like IEW's Fix It would suit us better. I think because had can also be a helping verb it is harder to recognize when it is action and has a direct object. It's not as obvious that a word is receiving the action of the verb like it would be in a sentence like "Joe kicked the ball." So, only you know how much he's understanding, but I definitely wouldn't judge his progress on that sentence. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellie Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 This is the first year my 5th grader has done a formal grammar program. (I never studied grammar formally in school) In past years we read Ruth Heller and Bryan Cleary books, did Mad Libs, read GrammarLand. This year he's doing ELTL level 3. He's done well with the grammar for the first part of the year, but now that we're mid way thru he's starting to struggle. There are more things to remember for diagramming. I don't think he's really understood the definitions for some of the grammar terms and so is forgetting them now that more is being thrown at him. The grammar definitions probably are using correct vocabulary, but they seem very formal and not very kid friendly. Figuring out sentences that have a helping verb, adverb, and then verb are tripping him up. But today one of his sentences had a direct object and he couldn't figure out what to do with it. The sentence was "You have had a sleep!". I think part of the problem is he's just not interested. Still, it seems like it could be presented in a more straight forward manner? Eta: I'm not sold on diagramming as a necessity. I never learned to diagram, and I don't feel the lack. Lol. I'm wondering if something like IEW's Fix It would suit us better. And that'sone of the reasons I loved Easy Grammar: no diagramming. EG makes more sense to me than other methods, because the first thing the children learn is how to identify prepositional phrases and to cross them off, because the subject and verb will never be a prepositional phrase. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 The sentence was "You have had a sleep!". I think part of the problem is he's just not interested. Still, it seems like it could be presented in a more straight forward manner? Yes, and (slight soap box) I'd add--who talks that way? ("You have had a sleep!") It's just not a sentence I would encourage my kids to write, so I wouldn't be excited to have them think about it deeply enough to diagram it. We used Easy Grammar, which doesn't focus on diagramming. Essentials in Writing wasn't out when my kids were in grade school, but that combines grammar and writing--and maybe that would help him in the interest department (to see the purpose of studying grammar). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaquitita Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Yes, and (slight soap box) I'd add--who talks that way? ("You have had a sleep!") It's just not a sentence I would encourage my kids to write, so I wouldn't be excited to have them think about it deeply enough to diagram it. We used Easy Grammar, which doesn't focus on diagramming. Essentials in Writing wasn't out when my kids were in grade school, but that combines grammar and writing--and maybe that would help him in the interest department (to see the purpose of studying grammar). This sentence was taken from the current lit book, the secret garden. I've actually been looking at EIW. I like the set up and the videos, he seems to explain things well. But I don't like the writing prompts, they seem lame, like all writing prompts. :O I'm looking at IEW and Fix It grammar now. I like that IEW is based on literature. When I showed my son the sample videos from EIW and IEW, he preferred the IEW guy. In the past I had written off IEW as being way more structured than I want, but that was elementary. I think for middle school, I'm ready for a little more structure. And I'm really liking what I see of Fix It. Eta: fixed typo, I got my EIW'S and IEw's mixed up. Edited February 8, 2017 by vaquitita 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Vaq, check out Writing Tales. I suggest it because it is what I decided on when I was looking at iew and eiw 😊. DS does cle grammar twice a week and Latin every day and WT fits right in. So I really think any other grammar program would mesh, too. Not for the first time I wish we could get together and show each other our stuff and talk about it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaquitita Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Vaq, check out Writing Tales. I suggest it because it is what I decided on when I was looking at iew and eiw 😊. DS does cle grammar twice a week and Latin every day and WT fits right in. So I really think any other grammar program would mesh, too. Not for the first time I wish we could get together and show each other our stuff and talk about it :) I will check that out. :) That sounds fabulous! No chance you live in CA? :D Edited February 8, 2017 by vaquitita Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 I will check that out. :) That sounds fabulous! No chance you live in CA? :D I used to live there! Maybe again sometime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vaquitita Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) Well ELTL went much better today. Monday I was forgetting we were coming off a three week break. I do think ELTL does a nice job in the grammar teaching sections. I'm wondering if I just had him make a grammar reference sheet, where he defined the terms in his own words, instead of using their definition flash cards, if that would help him 'get' it. This is his first year diagramming and ELTL doesn't use formulaic sentences, so maybe I shouldn't dispair yet. Lol Edited February 8, 2017 by vaquitita 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MerryAtHope Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 This sentence was taken from the current lit book, the secret garden. I figured it was from some lovely older book from the style and since it was ELTL. Glad today went better! The writing prompts have not always struck me as "wow" prompts in EiW either, but there was almost always a choice that struck a chord with my kids and made them want to write about it. I was often surprised. Here's a review I wrote several years ago, with my son's sample descriptive paragraph on an embarrassing incident. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
8Arrows4theLord Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 We have used R&S English for our grammar mostly (2nd-9th). Recently switched over to 1st Language Lessons for the younger ones. But I have heard a lot of really good things about Easy Grammar. I agree that Latin helps. My oldest (11th gr) always hated grammar lessons, but now she's so glad she was made to do them. She wants to major in English and Spanish in college. Give them the skills, you never know what they will do by the time they graduate. Hope you can find something that will work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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