ODD

[Heathermomster]

Honestly, sort the vision, do the palmar reintegration exercises, and possibly try an elimination diet. The hard part about dealing with these children is knowing what behaviors are volitional and which ones are not. The vision and motor issues make learning physically uncomfortable. You describe a child who behaves with other people such as coaches but pushes back with you. Maybe a mom with an ODD child can answer this, but I always believed behavior issues were global and affected every relationship, not just mom or siblings.

 

My DS is 2e with 3 SLDs. One tester identified him as ADHD inattentive using a Connor's Assessment and a NEPSY 2. DS currently works with a CBT who has assigned cognitive work on the PC, mindfulness, daily exercise, and goal setting work. Executive functioning work has been great for my DS. Once the vision and the motor issues are settled and your boy matures a little, you will be able to determine whether he needs therapies or meds.

 

The brains of 2e children are different. Cortical thickness is thinner. With your boy's high IQ, he could be emotionally immature by 2 years. Their brains eventually mature and cortical thickness grows thicker than normal. I don't believe that all of your son's behaviors are volitional. He likely requires accommodations. Maybe scribe everything and work in short 10 or 15 bursts. Enlarge any print that you can. Encourage him to tell you when he starts feeling bad or on edge. Come up with a hand signal or cue word.

 

Think in terms of novelty. With a compromised working memory and or processing speed, he's going to need to take short breaks. Send him to rotate the laundry or fix himself a drink. Reward the good behavior and use his currency to your advantage. Try to be patient. I know that the situation is hard for you.

 

http://eideneurolearningblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/cognition-without-control-adhd-gifted.html

https://www.amazon.com/Squeeze-Emotional-Holiday-Stocking-Stuffer/dp/B00OV4L5K0/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1486396133&sr=8-22&keywords=Squeeze+ball

[PeterPan]

My son, now 24, was given label of ODD and ADHD after a neuro/psy eval at age 10. They said at a young age that certain things like bipolar and ASD can be harder to diagnose so they are reluctant to give those labels. Ends up he was given the label conduct/mood disorder (bipolar) when he was 17.

 

 

So what does this mean for him now?

 

This is a total (good) rabbit trail, but I've been reading about over-methylation in ODD, bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. The Common Symptoms of Overmethylation in Patients - Mensah MedicalMensah Medical The niacin helps lower the excess methyls, which can result in a dramatic decrease in symptoms. Apparently for *under* methylation it's the MTHFR gene defects, something now easily testable. For over-methylation, not sure. I'm still trying to learn about it. I think it's the COMT genes, but I really don't know.

 

Apparently the rates of *under* methylation in ASD are 45%, but that leaves a high percent that's possibly over-methylation and would explain the overlap in things (bipolar, ASD, ODD, etc.).

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

I'm really, really not meaning to be snark, because I LOVE heathermomster (which she knows well!)... but you ain't never had fun till you've tried to do therapy exercises with a kid with serious behavioral problems. It's pretty off the charts.

 

For my ds, the niacin is making a shocking difference. Like no way will I be without it again.  Huge, huge difference, and it costs next to nothing, easy peasy to get into him. And it's like BOOM, astonishing changes. We'll give it more time. When I've been without aggression 3 weeks, then we'll say.

 

And I'm not saying that's instead of ADHD meds. For my ds, there's actually some question of whether the ADHD meds would be appropriate. We're still waiting for the Quotient results. But there's NO question he had more going on contributing to his behaviors. And if ADHD meds alone get someone's behavior under control, cool beans. But for us, it's *looking* like this methylation thing may be part of it. And that's not my fault or something I can magic through. I mean, we've had a team in for 9 months now. If there were techniques to improve it, it would be improving. 

 

And I'm just kind of reading into what the op has said. Like she said ODD, and I've got serious non-compliance and aggression in my house. It takes two pages to log the kinds of stuff we're talking about. It's serious behavioral challenges that leave people hurt. So I was kinda assuming she was talking serious behavioral problems, not *only* ADHD. People don't always say what they mean and we kinda read between the lines and fill in the blanks and all that. Could be totally different, dunno. I like everything, but you have to deal with whatever is glitching things and making it hard to get through the rest of the instruction.

Edited February 6, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[Heathermomster]

I love you OhE.  I guess my issue is that he has been seen by two neuropsychs and neither mentioned ODD. 

 

Does ODD affect all relationships, or does the sufferer pick and choose who they will behave for?  I didn't really get the impression that the OP's DS was pushing back on all people.  

 

[PeterPan]

Truly, totally agree. I do think things get missed because the kids aren't in school or being seen by more people for behaviors to be obvious. Like I was the ONLY one in ds' life making demands, so people assumed the problem was ME! Then we brought in workers and it became obvious it was him, that the behaviors occurred no matter who he was with. But it can take a while to get that kind of observation happening. If it's not on the forms, the psych can't diagnose it.

 

So then the issue is what the mother is seeing and how she can get a team seeing that so it can get noted on forms and discussed. But I agree, there's a big spread there of what people can be seeing and what people can mean. 

[PeterPan]

Adding, lots of people won't make demands or quietly avoid and work around it, knowing behaviors will happen if they don't. That will sometimes be on the forms, where the person will indicate how much they have to back off or avoid demands because they're worried about responses. 

 

So if it's a grandma and she lures with cookies instead of making an age-appropriate request to come, she just worked around it. She avoided the problem behavior by not making a demand or making it way easier for him to comply (motivator, setting him up, etc.). But that isn't reality, kwim? Like people can't go FOREVER like that, lol. But it's true you'll have whole swaths of people who are with the dc who are quietly working around it because they're afraid. At least that's how it wsa with my ds. Until he got big enough that NOBODY is oblivious any more. 

[Heathermomster]

Well, I would expect push back on pencil work and reading due to the developmental motor and vision issues.  I expect the palmar reflex actually helps with wrestling.  

 

I'm not suggesting that the OP ignore niacin or supplements.  IDK enough about that to even make a judgement one way or the other, and it's not really my perview.  I'm simply suggesting that dealing with the motor and vision may temper the unwanted behaviors.   

 

And I hope that I've never suggested that therapies are easy.  My DS has a very easy spirit.  ETA:  He doesn't lash out.  He turns inward.  He flatly refused writing with me and it was affecting our relationship, so I hired that out for a couple of years.   My DD does not share his spirit, and I have been challenged by her on numerous occasions.  Her bent is gifted with motor difficulty.   DD can be a handful with perfectionism and anxiety though she is not crippled by it.  I have to measure my responses with DD.

 

I just don't want the OP freaking out over all of this information especially since she lives so far out and cannot do anything about most of it, at least not immediately.  I keep thinking of OhE's onion analogy.  Deal with what you have in front of you and peel back whatever else may or may not come.  

 

 

Edited February 6, 2017 by Heathermomster

[mamamoose]

Defiance and vindictiveness does not have to be global for an ODD diagnosis to be determined. In fact, its quite common for kids (at least at this age) to have the behavior in one setting but not the other. Ds is defiant but not necessarily always vindictive but he's pretty young. He does behave this way for my mom, for me, and for dh. He is not like this with coaches but he LOVES all his activities so it would make sense he wouldn't have any opposition to them at all. In fact, people frequently tell me he is one of the most coachable kids they have ever coached. 

 

When I asked him about vision therapy his response was, "I'm not doing it. I refuse." I imagine it will be a struggle. We did several of the palmar exercises this morning but I tricked him. I don't know how long I can do that.

 

 

Of course the mother of a kid with any kind of behavioral issue becomes an expert on how to avoid meltdowns, how to increase productivity, and how to accommodate to ease any difficulty this might have for the family. I am not sure this is entirely profitable in the long run, though. I guess time will tell. There really isn't any treatment for ODD as far as I can tell, aside from behavior modification. One of the most difficult things, and yet most beneficial afaik, is essentially ignoring the retaliation and not showing emotion. That is HARD for siblings and parents to witness and implement.

 

Its also hard to differentiate between symptoms...is it anxiety? Is it ODD? Is it ADHD? Is it depression? A combination of one or two or three of those? Even the psychologist told us that was a difficult diagnosis to determine...although we didn't discuss ODD really at that time. All of the comorbids make it even more difficult because unit you eliminate vision issues and retained reflexes, you can't even tell how difficult his life really is, so you don't know how much of it is in defiance of THOSE disabilities and anger at the situation, and how much of it is a mental disruption.

 

How much niacin?

[LLMom]

So what does this mean for him now?

It means he is supposed to take his medications and go to counseling, but he usually doesn't take them which means it can be a nightmare to live with him. We had to ask him to move out of our house at age 19 because he refused treatment and made life too stressful for us and younger children with his rage episodes.

[PeterPan]

A good coach is going to be able to explain things and expect precision. It can work really well with a gifted, very physical kid. And, as you say, it's preferred activities. 

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[mamamoose]

Is niacin tested in the blood?

[MomatHWTK]

Three out of my four children have distinct signs of ASD or ADHD. One has been diagnosed. What has made my life infinitely better is to give each child in my household the benefit of the doubt- always. At some point, it doesn't matter what the dx is, every child can be helped by a parent who seeks to instruct rather than punish. So, if a child is struggling, I help them cope. If they are out of control, I help them regain control. In some situations, that means the child has to go to his or her room to cool down. 

 

I do believe it is my job to force my child to conform to my will today, but to help them successfully navigate the world at large tomorrow. Keep your focus on the long-term benefits of behavioral training rather on the short-term gains of compliance.  :grouphug:

 

 

[mamamoose]

I'm using xxx mg niacin with my dd, but that's more than the nutritionist suggested (25mg). I would suggest you really be careful. One, it creates flushes (which my ds has never noticed, but he has autism and is hyporesponsive) and two giving more than someone needs can make really nasty under-methylation symptoms. So just because that has been fine for my ds doesn't mean it's good for your dc. 

 

If you give niacin to an under-methylated person, apparently it can make some nasty side effects. Like I'd really suggest you be careful. The ONLY reason I gave it to him with confidence is because I've taken it myself. He and I are very similar, so I know how it does for me. It's not like it was just out of the blue for the biochemistry of our family, kwim? 

How did you know you were niacin deficient? Isn't niacin a b-vitamin? I have b-vitamin issues...

 

I admit I am not good at consistent rewards but he is hard to reward. He often [defiantly] doesn't care about a reward or a consequence. I do stick with consequences...as in, if you schoolwork isn't finished then you lose your e-time, but I could do better at rewards. But honestly, a behavior coach seems far off for us right now. For one, it is expensive to have anyone even come to our home because we are literally 70 miles from anything. 

[Heathermomster]

What would your DS do if you tied good behavior to wrestling practice? I'm just curious.

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

nt

Edited February 8, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[MomatHWTK]

Step one is to change your perception from "this is defiant" to "my beloved child is struggling and it is my job to learn how to help him."

Edited February 8, 2017 by MomatHWTK

[mamamoose]

Step one is to change your perception from "this is defiant" to "my beloved child is struggling and it is my job to learn how to help him."

ODD is unlike something like ASD, so obviously the kid is struggling and obviously and obviously I want to help him or...why would I be here?! I'm sorry but that is just offensive. Clearly I'm here trying to help him not identifying whether the defiance is occurring.

[mamamoose]

What would your DS do if you tied good behavior to wrestling practice? I'm just curious.

Do you mean take wrestling away for poor behavior? I don't see any way to make this a beneficial consequence. It's like taking recess away, or only offering it when the child is "good."

[Heathermomster]

Do you mean take wrestling away for poor behavior? I don't see any way to make this a beneficial consequence. It's like taking recess away, or only offering it when the child is "good."

Choosing not to behave has natural consequences. It is his decision to behave. He has a choice in this scenario. You provide the clear goal. Accommodate his work by reading aloud and scribing. His job is to work for 15 minutes or so with a good attitude and no sass. Set a timer, do the work, and be done with it.

 

When my DS doesn't get his work done, he misses football practice. He plays on an 8 man tackle football team. He speaks to his coach over the phone and explains to the coach why he will miss. DS is answerable to his coach, team, DH, and me. My job is making certain that goals are clear and that he has the tools to complete the task I place in front of him. I want DS to participate in sports and am very clear about that up front.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Heathermomster

[Kanin]

I watched a pretty good video with a behavior---> consequences method. Basically you say calmly, "This is your one warning. You are doing X. If you continue, X will happen." You then say, "I'm going to go (check my email, change the laundry) and I'll be back in two minutes. By that time I expect you to have made your decision." The two minute wait time is to give the kid a chance to actually make a choice - when we're in their faces demanding instant compliance, they tend to get more upset and are more likely to make a bad choice. You also want to drive home the point that behavior is IS a choice.

 

(To be completely honest, I'm in the "kids to well if they can" camp, so I'm not saying the behavior necessarily IS a choice - perhaps he genuinely cannot do what you want - yet. You may need to do a lot of scaffolding and teaching how to behave... or if it's a brain chemistry thing and he needs medication, that's another thing altogether... but if you think he can control his behavior, you could try this method.)

 

I tried this twice yesterday. Once it worked like a charm. There was some grumbling ("She's so mean!") but then compliance. The second time the kid was yelling too much to let me give him the two minute wait time. Ugh. In general, though, I think it would work well with a kid that is NOT so worked up as to be yelling. 

 

The other key to this method is to always have a way to "up the ante" - so rather than jumping straight to "no TV for a week!" you start small - like no watching one show tonight. Then if the child is still defiant, go a bit more strict... and a bit more... always giving them the chance to make a good choice.

 

Forgive me if this is common knowledge! In theory I know I should do this, but in practice I often give too many chances before I enforce a consequence, or I issue orders with an annoyed (NOT calm!) voice. 

[PeterPan]

ODD is unlike something like ASD, so obviously the kid is struggling and obviously and obviously I want to help him or...why would I be here?! I'm sorry but that is just offensive. Clearly I'm here trying to help him not identifying whether the defiance is occurring.

 

I'm not a psychologist, but I wouldn't assume this. Look at the criteria, but I thought they included non-compliance and lack of perspective taking and social thinking. ASD-1 or ASD-2 if you want.

 

Kids float up and down labels all the time. You've already seen posts here from people saying their dc was ODD/ADHD labels for a while and moved over to an ASD label. Labels change. You're going to want to look for what works, wherever you find it, and get the evals and labels to get the funding to make the help happen. To need an ODD label is a pretty serious thing. There are kids who need more than typical good parenting techniques. Some kids are just extra in that category and need extra analysis. The behaviorist helps you look at functions of the behaviors, what the antecedent was, how to set them up to do better, how to find what motivates them, how to bring in more motivators, how to quietly get in control without stressing the child and disregulating them further. There's a lot of nuanced stuff there.

 

None of it is bad parenting and sometimes it even sounds obvious, like oh that's just good parenting. But kids with challenges sometimes aren't makign the inference, the connection between cause and effect. They aren't using their social thinking to take perspective and notice how other people feel. They aren't maybe yet in a place where it matters to them how other people feel (motivation). You can use behavioral strategies to improve how motivated they are. There's a LOT you can do besides just punishing.

[Heathermomster]

I need to clarify this. DS and I work with a CBT. I narrowed down what was most important to me during a school day. I have a set of minimum requirements to legally call DS an 11th grader with a specific amount of time dedicated to each subject. DS then spelled out what he wanted. Our goals are in writing and we agree to specific points. There is no ambiguity. I don't arbitrarily set goals. DS needs clear directions and to see his need. IDK if CBT work is beneficial to kiddos with ODD. I do not think it is recommended for kiddos with ASD.

Edited February 8, 2017 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Oh sure you can do CBT with kids with ASD, absolutely! Sounds great for anxiety, goal setting, getting buy-in, how they talk to themselves. There's just a lot of good uses for it! It's not the starting point for someone like my ds, because he's just not there. Working with him is sorta like working with someone much younger, sort of extended childhood. You spend more time in some stages that you'd expect to grow out of and need a lot more help to get some basic understanding for whys. He's not ready for that line of thought. But in general, good stuff, absolutely!  

 

I think the way you're using the CBT makes a lot of sense. Nuts, just surviving high school homeschooling, with your relationship intact, is something. 

[Guest]

ODD. Oppositional Defiant Disorder. A Guide for Families by the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry

http://docplayer.net/2427339-Odd-oppositional-defiant-disorder-a-guide-for-families-by-the-american-academy-of-child-and-adolescent-psychiatry.html

[Mom28GreatKids]

The behaviorist helps you look at functions of the behaviors, what the antecedent was, how to set them up to do better, how to find what motivates them, how to bring in more motivators, how to quietly get in control without stressing the child and disregulating them further. There's a lot of nuanced stuff there.

 

None of it is bad parenting and sometimes it even sounds obvious, like oh that's just good parenting. But kids with challenges sometimes aren't makign the inference, the connection between cause and effect. They aren't using their social thinking to take perspective and notice how other people feel. They aren't maybe yet in a place where it matters to them how other people feel (motivation). You can use behavioral strategies to improve how motivated they are. There's a LOT you can do besides just punishing.

This, this, and this again. This is what the behavior counselor has done for me. . . she has teased out the behavior, helped me to understand it, given me tools to head it off, redirect, etc. Her stuff is magical. She has helped me with appropriate consequences too, when all the tools fail, but that is rare these days. There is one area where all of the strategies are failing right now, and she is coming out next week to see if she can figure it out. Hoping to set up a scenario to get the behavior so she can observe it. She sees things I don't. She has taught me to keep things from escalating to where we need consequences. KWIM? So when we used to spend several hours every day dealing with consequences, physical behavior, etc, now we only have 1 or 2 times a week he even gets a time out. But, as the behavior counselor says, it takes lots of finesse and you have to be on your game. It is exhausting, but it sure is better than getting hit, bit, and scratched daily. And the only behavior report we have had from school so far is he got in trouble for kissing a girl. Ha ha. He's a lover, not a fighter. . . WHEN he is regulated and his mind is settled. He is 4.5, btw. Edited February 9, 2017 by Mom28GreatKids

[Heathermomster]

I need to clarify this. DS and I work with a CBT. I narrowed down what was most important to me during a school day. I have a set of minimum requirements to legally call DS an 11th grader with a specific amount of time dedicated to each subject. DS then spelled out what he wanted. Our goals are in writing and we agree to specific points. There is no ambiguity. I don't arbitrarily set goals. DS needs clear directions and to see his need. IDK if CBT work is beneficial to kiddos with ODD. I do not think it is recommended for kiddos with ASD.

I'm going to give this dead horse one final kick, quote myself, and walk away s-l-ow-ly.

 

This process has a name. It is called Achievement Motivation. During the goal setting process, you think through all the potential road blocks and difficulties, and then come up with strategies to handle the issues before the wheels come off on your groove train. And maybe this is where all the behavior strategies that others have mentioned fits in.

 

For example, if the student starts getting red in the face, maybe they recognize the need for a timeout, or hug, a cup of tea, or whatever you agree with to deescalate the situation. Agree to the strategy and then once all is clear, get back to work. If your the student can focus for 5 minutes and then requires a 2 minute breather or 50 jumping jacks, do it. My DS will get on the elliptical for 10 minutes.

 

Now with small children hanging at your feet, sticking with the strategy will be problematic; therefore, prioritize what must be done and establish a plan for dealing with little ones.

 

This process is very challenging and requires months and months to implement.

Edited February 9, 2017 by Heathermomster

[PeterPan]

Heather, that's really interesting! My ds' starting point is a lot lower, needing a lot more support and in-between steps and data collection and in-home help from a team, but I agree, the foundation (working on self-regulation, practicing skills when calm so you can use them when you're not) is the same. I like how intentional and organized the work is the CBT therapist is doing with him. It sounds very good!

 

And see that's a really good point, that it's a matter of degrees and how much support the op needs to get there. She could even get Zones of Regulation and do the training and implement it herself. Definitely agree she only needs to bring in the level of support that helps her solve the problem. Zones is similar to what you're describing. They want you to have check-in points during the day to improve self-monitoring and practice your calming strategies. My ds wasn't ready for that when we started a year ago. There are simplified things they've done with him, like ALERT. I got an OT who is really kick butt at taking the emotions and feelings and making it really kinesthetic, so in a session he might run the gamut of feelings and get to talk about them and improve his self-monitoring. So it's just steps of support and bringing in the level you need to get there.

 

Definitely agree it's not necessary to do NOTHING assuming a high level of support is needed if a lower level of support (more accessible, more affordable) and some tools would get you there. Better to do SOMETHING and find it's not enough than to do nothing. Even in the attempt to work on self-monitoring and self-regulation, you're going to get data and learn things to help you decide what your next step should be.

Edited February 9, 2017 by OhElizabeth

[geodob]

ODD Oppositional Defiant Disorder, is basically a lack of trust in the 'other'.

Where this 'lack of trust in the other', means that they will not allow the 'other' to have authority over them.

 

When an authority gives 'consequences' for not recognising their authority, and obeying their commands?

It only reinforces their lack of trust, in the authority of others.

Trust is something that we need to be able to give willingly.

Not out of fear of a consequence/ punishment?

 

Where the only real solution, is to help them to 'develop trust in the other'.

In a 2 way process, of giving and recieving trust, in each other.

 

 

 

[PeterPan]

Adding: You mention goals and motivators. With our team, we monitor very carefully the motivators, what is working, and the frequency they are needed. So when we started, we literally needed a motivator to get 5 minutes of compliance. And that motivator might be really big, like 20 minutes (10 and 10) of awesomeness! So like here we're going to sit and do dot to dots for 5 minutes, then we're going to do 10 minutes of catch and 10 minutes of Wii. Like serious pouring on of the motivators for a really, really simple task. 

 

That's how way down in the hole we were. He was only complying when he felt like it, when it was intriguing, and otherwise we had serious, unworkable or dangerous behaviors. So then we could quantify with data as we were able to shift that ratio, spacing out motivators, getting a little more done in-between. 

 

It was just a really low starting point for us, kwim? But I agree, it's the same idea, motivators and goal-setting, keeping it positive, getting buy-in, absolutely! 

[Guest]

"The Oppositional Child" by Stanley I. Greenspan:

 

https://etown.instructure.com/courses/728/files/148179

 

[Guest]

Agreeing:

ODD Oppositional Defiant Disorder, is basically a lack of trust in the 'other'.

Where this 'lack of trust in the other', means that they will not allow the 'other' to have authority over them.

 

When an authority gives 'consequences' for not recognising their authority, and obeying their commands?

It only reinforces their lack of trust, in the authority of others.

Trust is something that we need to be able to give willingly.

Not out of fear of a consequence/ punishment?

 

Where the only real solution, is to help them to 'develop trust in the other'.

In a 2 way process, of giving and recieving trust, in each other.

 Adding my POV:

 

It's about standing by the child like a coach or mentor, if you will. Showing him/her with actions that we are there to support and guide them to better decisions that work for the specific child. Not about asserting power over them and training them to like it, with any means at our disposal. Methods like the latter don't work for oppositional kids, at least not for long...

 

:auto:  

Edited February 9, 2017 by Guest

[swellmomma]

I'm really, really not meaning to be snark, because I LOVE heathermomster (which she knows well!)... but you ain't never had fun till you've tried to do therapy exercises with a kid with serious behavioral problems. It's pretty off the charts.

 

For my ds, the niacin is making a shocking difference. Like no way will I be without it again.  Huge, huge difference, and it costs next to nothing, easy peasy to get into him. And it's like BOOM, astonishing changes. We'll give it more time. When I've been without aggression 3 weeks, then we'll say.

 

And I'm not saying that's instead of ADHD meds. For my ds, there's actually some question of whether the ADHD meds would be appropriate. We're still waiting for the Quotient results. But there's NO question he had more going on contributing to his behaviors. And if ADHD meds alone get someone's behavior under control, cool beans. But for us, it's *looking* like this methylation thing may be part of it. And that's not my fault or something I can magic through. I mean, we've had a team in for 9 months now. If there were techniques to improve it, it would be improving. 

 

And I'm just kind of reading into what the op has said. Like she said ODD, and I've got serious non-compliance and aggression in my house. It takes two pages to log the kinds of stuff we're talking about. It's serious behavioral challenges that leave people hurt. So I was kinda assuming she was talking serious behavioral problems, not *only* ADHD. People don't always say what they mean and we kinda read between the lines and fill in the blanks and all that. Could be totally different, dunno. I like everything, but you have to deal with whatever is glitching things and making it hard to get through the rest of the instruction.

 

How much niacin do you use? with 4 with adhd, 2 with ODD and 1 with conduct disorder (that one refusing all meds right now and yet he is the one with the worst behaviour issues) I am willing to try anything to make an improvement.

 

[Guest]

Just an FYI for anyone interested...

 

"Niacin overdose" from the Mayo Clinic:

http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/niacin-overdose/faq-20058075

[PeterPan]

Swellmomma, I'm going to pm you. :)

[heartlikealion]

$350? Are they special glasses?

 

I clicked on this thread because sometimes I wonder if my child is ODD but he doesn't fit the check lists I've read. He's so difficult and I think it's mostly with close family (dh, me, sometimes around grandparents though we aren't around them often). He had one eval (didn't discuss ODD then) and I am going to look into vision stuff based on his Bender-Gestalt results. He complains of headaches after school often. I was given a check list at the optometrist to see if he's a candidate for further vision testing. I don't know if something like that would apply to you. I haven't read every reply to this thread.

 

You can find a copy here: http://www.woa-eyes.org/college-of-optometrists-in-vision-development-quality-of-life-checklist?preview=

But I think you need to follow up with a certain optometrist to interpret your answers.

[mamamoose]

The glasses are special lenses, but it's not that much more than it would be for any basic prescription. Mine were $400. And we've done vision testing and he is going to have vision therapy starting in May or June.

[heartlikealion]

The glasses are special lenses, but it's not that much more than it would be for any basic prescription. Mine were $400. And we've done vision testing and he is going to have vision therapy starting in May or June.

 

I just thought it sounded high because I went to a regular eye exam not long ago and the exam itself (I found the cheapest price so I know it can easily be more) was $75 I believe. Then I ordered my glasses at the site I heard about here (zenni optical). My two pairs of glasses/lenses were $52 combined (free shipping I think). But I didn't have any special testing, maybe that's what you meant. It might not help now, but maybe later to try that site. Of course being special lenses you might not be able to order there.

 

[mamamoose]

I just thought it sounded high because I went to a regular eye exam not long ago and the exam itself (I found the cheapest price so I know it can easily be more) was $75 I believe. Then I ordered my glasses at the site I heard about here (zenni optical). My two pairs of glasses/lenses were $52 combined (free shipping I think). But I didn't have any special testing, maybe that's what you meant. It might not help now, but maybe later to try that site. Of course being special lenses you might not be able to order there.

 

Well zenni optical doesn't fit for bifocals and you get what you pay for. I have purchased from them before and the fit was crappy and so was the quality. They are great for glasses you don't have to wear every day.

[heartlikealion]

Well zenni optical doesn't fit for bifocals and you get what you pay for. I have purchased from them before and the fit was crappy and so was the quality. They are great for glasses you don't have to wear every day.

 

They have bifocals on their site but maybe they didn't in the past. Or maybe you mean you have to get fitted in person. http://www.zennioptical.com/bifocal-glasses

 

This video I saw (which I originally saw because of the Hive I think) basically says that glasses are overpriced and you aren't getting much more quality based on the price tag. and one company owns most of them. But I don't think my glasses feel like they are high quality, either so I hear you. I do wear them daily. Every time I've replaced glasses it's been because a child of mine broke a pair. I thought it was important for me to have two pairs and this way I could afford two. I try to keep them away from my toddler, but sometimes I screw up.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7H-_8UkmFU

 

I respect your opinion but I just wanted to share where I was coming from. I'm sorry I don't have anything useful to contribute to the thread.

 

Edited since I'm not sure my original thoughts are correct but the video speaks for itself.

Edited February 17, 2017 by heartlikealion

[mamamoose]

Maybe all that's true. But I've owned 4 pairs I purchased from Zenni and two pair since and I can say with honestly, the pairs I purchased and had fitted at the eye doctor are heads and tails more comfortable. I do have a strange bridge on my nose and glasses tend to slide down.

[heartlikealion]

Maybe all that's true. But I've owned 4 pairs I purchased from Zenni and two pair since and I can say with honestly, the pairs I purchased and had fitted at the eye doctor are heads and tails more comfortable. I do have a strange bridge on my nose and glasses tend to slide down.

 

Ahh. Gotcha. I had a couple pairs prior to these that in some ways seemed to be of higher quality but the fit for me is always hit and miss. I wore "wedgees" with some of them. https://www.amazon.com/Wedgees-Eyeglass-Retainers-Eyewear-Oversized/dp/B00EULO7WM. I could hide the wedgees with my hair if I wanted.