South Korean Curriculum

[Homeschooler in Dubai]

Hi everyone,

 

I recently watched this documentary which came out this year about the education system in South Korea:

 

 

Initially I wanted to know what is so special about Asian Countries education. Why are they so high in ranking? I found out that it's because they study 14-16 hours a day, in some countries even 7 days a week with a lot of pressure and only about 4-6 hours of sleep a day. The South Korean children will do a math High School exam which is supposed to take about an hour in 15 minutes and find it too easy because it is what they do in Primary School!

 

This documentary raised some questions which I couldn't find an answer for yet.

 

1. How come that Finland is so high up in the international ranking (comparison test) together with the Asian countries even though the study time of both Finland and Asian countries is so different (Finland: 4-6hours a day versus South Korea: 14-16 hours a day)?

 

2. Isn't the human brain working less effective under such extreme conditions like in South Korea?

 

3. Is the Singapore math curriculum which is everywhere available now really that fast (like in South Korea High School stuff at Primary)?

[Homeschooler in Dubai]

Oh yes and forgot 4. Does anyone know how many hours a day the South Korean Schools teach the subject math to reach that kind of a level? Science would be also interesting to know how many hours it is studied in South Korea at Primary level.

[SarahW]

There was a recent book, which chronicled American exchange students' experiences overseas. One was in Finland, the other in S. Korea. Smartest Kids in the Word, is that it? You might be interested in it.

 

I remember when I read it being struck that the S. Korea system (as the exchange student experienced it) was quite inefficient. The "normal" school the kids attend during the day is mostly a waste of time - most kids sleep during it. So you have to subtract a huge part of the 14-16 hours. Most of the learning for the exams is in the night cram school, and it's not clear if the education received there is of any use to anything except passing the exams.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I was reading some articles recently related to the recent POSTS results. Some articles pointed out that some of the tests are testing a particular type of math problems. One example was that Finland's rankings are very different on the PISA and TIMMS results. Some of the articles also pointed out the difference in student population being assessed. For example the Shanghai results dont test rural students living in the city without official sanction. Similarly students who leave school to work obviously aren't included.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

I don't remember where all the articles were. I started at Education Next journal. Some of the articles were from the last cycle of test so they were 2013 articles about the 2012 tests.

[....]

I'll delete my non-helpful post (and seek therapy for my MIL issues immediately!). In all seriousness, though, sorry OP if I messed up your thread.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Evanthe

[SoCal_Bear]

I'm pretty sure the book that SarahW is talking is The Smartest Kids in the World by Amanda Ripley. It's a pretty fascinating book.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Smartest-Kids-World-They-That/dp/145165443X

I'm an American born Chinese. When I chose to homeschool...it was not well received by our relatives. We got a ton of flack. My son used to be quizzed more...but they are less verbally critical as he has caught up or even surpassed his cousins that are several years older in several areas. They do seem to spend a lot of time explaining to me why public school is still better though as if our choice to homeschool was a judgment about theirs to not homeschool.

 

Asia has pretty high teen and young adult suicide rates in all those countries. They are producing extremely good test takers and memorizers, but they aren't able to teach kids to be creative and innovative. There's very little thinking outside of the box. I grew up in that sort of culture...it is literally a soul sucking experience. 

 

Edited December 23, 2016 by calbear

[redsquirrel]

I would not want to replicate the south Korean educational system. I don't think what they get out of it is enough for what they lose.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/02/opinion/sunday/south-koreas-education-system-hurts-students.html?_r=0

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/23/world/asia/23southkorea.html

[...................]

One of my best friends is from South Korea. She would never ever want any child to go through what they went through as kids. The fact that many Asian parents come here to America and then perpetuate the twisted achievement culture breaks her heart. She told me

Right Away to do anything but follow the Tiger Parents loving all around me. And If I had not seen it with my own eyes I would never believe it. I won't bore you with my stories again.

 

Suffice it to say that everything in life is a balance, no? We can fall off the balance beam one way or another and in my religious thinking on the issue Satan doesn't care which way we fall off as long as we do.

 

So. I have to set my eyes on God and do what he's asking of me and my children. Not the Joneses, or the Kims or the Skygaards.

 

I actually know friends IRL who are South Korean whose kids graduated from a BASIS school. One started taking Ritalin in 11th grade to get through it. They frequently complained of having only an average of 3 hours of sleep per night. Toward the end of high school they had very few friends, no long term volunteering or community outside their very narrow school, and almost no personality, the only hobby to speak of was piano which was all about notoriety as well. The mom said she regretted they didn't have a childhood after 7th grade. But they all got their hopes as the kids went to the best colleges in our state. Se la vie. I hope they find balance.

 

I think the idea that school should always be fun is ridiculous, or that one's career can and should always be a fun rewarding passion. But one doesn't actually want to flip burgers or to work against ones own talents either. (Ie a compassionate socialist working as a programmer analyst)

 

So again, there is balance. Look for balance. I am

Guessing the Finns have a lot of balance.

[....]

dp

Edited December 24, 2016 by Evanthe

[...................]

haha you wouldn't be the first to need mother in law therapy.

[....]

haha you wouldn't be the first to need mother in law therapy.

 

:laugh:  Lol!

[kalusignan]

I lived in S. Korea for a few years. Their view of education I find at the least, insane and at the most, inhumane. They send children to preschool at age 2. Small, elementary age kids go to school in the early morning, then directly to hours of after school privately owned tutoring schools, then home in the evening to complete hours of homework, many times very late and into the wee hours of the morning. Kids are sleep deprived and HATING their life!

 

And there's a TON of pressure from parents and family to do well and get into a good university and become a doctor or some other revered occupation.

 

The 'education' is extremely geared towards 'teaching to the test'. If it's not on the test, it's not worth knowing. It's all about how to regurgitate information.

 

I would NEVER want my children to experience that! That type of education is the exact opposite of what I'm trying to do in my homeschool.

[....]

dp

Edited December 24, 2016 by Evanthe

[vickjul]

I taught in South Korea for about eight years. Public school days actually tend to be shorter than American school days (although the school year is longer and kids go to school six days a week). Public school is primarily about testing, though. The bulk of actual learning takes place after school, when kids go to private institutes (hagwons) and study rooms for hours on end. I taught at one of the better English language institutes, where parents paid approx. $200/month/child for their kids to receive 80 minutes a day of English instruction in a small group setting. Most kids attended math and English hagwon at the very least, and many went to half a dozen or more after school classes. (Even in early elementary school, kids generally did math, English, music or art, and a martial art as a bare minimum.) By middle school, most kids were also enrolled in a "study room" where they went after hagwon classes to complete homework (and where they could still be beaten for wrong answers -- the Korean government banned caning in public schools in 2008). In my early years in Korea, the study rooms often stayed open until 1 or 2 a.m. In 2009 or 2010, though, legislation was passed that made it illegal for study rooms to keep students out beyond a "reasonable" hour of 10 p.m.-12 a.m. (depending on age).

I loved Korea dearly and treasure the years I was able to spend there. As a teacher, I loved working with parents who valued education and kids who wanted to learn. I still keep in touch with some of my former students and love seeing where their hard work has gotten them. But I could not raise my children in that system. I briefly enrolled my oldest child in music and dance classes when she was a toddler, and I thought I was giving her great opportunities. But even in "fun" classes geared toward toddlers, the teachers' top objectives were conformity and cooperation. I couldn't handle taking my 19-month old native English speaking child to a class, watching her do her best to follow instructions in a foreign language, then see the teacher deny her a sticker or a hand stamp at the end because she hadn't followed directions well enough. I actually ended up leaving my job and moving back to the U.S. rather than transition into a position that would have required me to put her in all-day preschool.

[Homeschooler in Dubai]

Thanks for all the stories and comments. Unfortunately the debate went to far into health problems etc. Obviously they took it to an extreme where they don't have a life anymore and live only for this world, fail to fulfill the purpose of life (to worship God) etc. but I was more interested in what good can we learn from them and how can we apply it to our own homeschooling? (see my questions regarding math curriculum, Singapore etc.)

 

Nice debate but not really answers to my questions yet :mellow:

[MistyMountain]

The book The Smartest Kids in the World discussed the educational systems in Finland and South Korea. It also discussed Poland. Finland is successful because they started raising standards for getting into the teaching program in higher education and because of the good post college training system they have. They made other changes when they changed teachers standards too like having high expectations for students. I like how in some European countries they also do not stigmatize kids that need help but rather expect that kids will need help at any given time in their school carreer and they make it easy to get help until they no longer need it.

 

I do think the brain is working less effectively on that little sleep and with studying all the time with no breaks. The brain does function better with active breaks and periods of rest. Why do they bother coming to school in the morning when kids are just sleeping or not paying attention because they feel all the learning occurs in the hagwons.

 

Signapore math curriculum is ahead of other curriculum but I do not think you can pass a high school level test with just the primary grade program but it will get you ready for high school level math if you go through the later levels of the primary program.

 

The good that can be gleaned from Asian countries is that rather then saying that kids are just not good at math or any subject when they are not understanding something or they get wrong answers you do not give up or say they are bad at it but find a way to teach it so they understand. You can take the good without taking it to the extreme they do with pressure and time. The Asian style curriculums that teach the whys behind concepts rather then a rote procedure to follow is good for developing mathematical understanding. I think a lot of kids need lots of practice with it too.

[....]

dp

Edited December 24, 2016 by Evanthe

[...................]

sorry Dubai, it'a only natural for those on the other side to look over and critique, but sorry we didn't answer your questions.

 

One thing I agree with Asian parents and see them do, if that they will sit and be part of homework, essays, they will pay for, drive kids to and truly engage in the educational pursuits of their offspring.

 

I don't know if you are Ex Pat or Indian or Middle Eastern but this would be also seen in all my highly educated successful Indian friends who live here. They too are extremely involved and will sacrifice whatever it takes to ensure the children receive an education. The difference however is that my Indian friends also want their kids to be happy so they encourage also fun things, friends, sports kids enjoy -they seem way more balanced.

 

 

This is very different from the American mentality. Many of the kids I grew up with were on their own. The parents, at best, will pay for a good private school and make their kids stay in from play until homework is done. No American parent I ever knew growing up (and I had a mix of socio-economic backgrounds and lived in country, suburb and small town)...no American I ever knew of would have paid for individual tutoring centers. They rarely helped woth homework or projects. My own husband believes our children should sink or swim at high school level (although he is still beyond most American dads in that he is absolutely sure about homeschooling and he knows that I am highly involved and if it's necessary he has and did pay for thousands of dollars of specialized tutoring last year)

 

So one thing I think we can take from the South Korean or Asian model is just being involved, putting education before hanging out time, and paying for Any necessary tutoring.

But as homeschoolers I think we are all already doing that :)

Edited December 24, 2016 by Calming Tea

[quark]

 

This documentary raised some questions which I couldn't find an answer for yet.

 

1. How come that Finland is so high up in the international ranking (comparison test) together with the Asian countries even though the study time of both Finland and Asian countries is so different (Finland: 4-6hours a day versus South Korea: 14-16 hours a day)?

 

2. Isn't the human brain working less effective under such extreme conditions like in South Korea?

 

3. Is the Singapore math curriculum which is everywhere available now really that fast (like in South Korea High School stuff at Primary)?

Thanks for all the stories and comments. Unfortunately the debate went to far into health problems etc. Obviously they took it to an extreme where they don't have a life anymore and live only for this world, fail to fulfill the purpose of life (to worship God) etc. but I was more interested in what good can we learn from them and how can we apply it to our own homeschooling? (see my questions regarding math curriculum, Singapore etc.)

 

Nice debate but not really answers to my questions yet :mellow:

I wanted to reply but did not want to contribute to some of the judgmental posts. The last thing we need is a whole bunch of judgment against a certain culture or parenting style. Yes, some of the environment is harsh and extreme but I see Ritalin use and tiger parenting among non Asian cultures too. And while suicides might be high in S. Korea, they are not exactly low among our own American kids (Silicon Valley being one example).

 

The thread might have taken the turn it did due to your Question #2 above. Thank you for turning it back in your latest reply. I think asking this question in a homeschooling forum is definitely going to give you biased responses. You are not only comparing cultures but also learning and teaching styles after all.

 

So what good can we learn? Some quick background: I am Asian but not South Korean. I've lived for about 30+ years in 2 Asian countries. I have many S. Korean friends and my DH spends a significant amount of time traveling to S. Korea for business and learning about their culture. I also have a S. Korean sis-in-law and half Korean-half non far east but other Asian nieces and nephews.

 

Some of the values that I see that could be the foundation points to why the kids do well in school (other than the harsh hours which I think actually backfire more than help):

 

There is a very deep sense of respect and obedience inculcated into the kids right from young. Perhaps this builds a natural compliance in many but I am sure the strong willed suffer. Compliance is very helpful when you want kids to learn something...but compliance can also affect creativity and the ability to take risks. I have lived for a number of years in Singapore and can tell you that working in the ad industry there was torture for me because people are so happy with status quos and very averse to rocking the boat. To me, creativity comes from taking big leaps of faith but the culture there, at least in advertising (except for agencies run by Western expats), was quite stifling. And yet, bosses expect "creativity" :laugh: .

 

Kids are given lots of structure. Like with everything else, too much and it backfires eg. overscheduling.

 

Hard work is such an essential part of upbringing and parents role model this hard work. In every family I have encountered, parents are always involved in something industrious. My sis-in-law for example, found a way to start an air bnb style business even before air bnb became famous. My nieces and nephews help clean up after guests and earn pocket money that way. Some of the parents also take classes part time or work and study. Like a pp mentioned, parents stay up with kids if homework is due or exams are on the horizon, they offer a lot of scaffolding and support. Some are much more encouraging and supportive than others (tiger parenting is definitely rife in some communities depending on how the parents themselves were raised). There is no "everything will be ok" mentality. There is always an idea that "you must work hard and succeed...mistakes are unacceptable, failure is not one step backwards but many...it's too difficult to catch up if you fail". I am obviously generalizing. (Personally, in my own family, we encourage mistakes and even occasional failure as a great way to learn).

 

When I was researching math curricula many years ago, I was intrigued to learn how some Asian languages contribute towards number sense. Our English for twenty is twenty but in some Asian languages, twenty = two tens. Right from the beginning, kids learning the native language have a head start!

 

Re Singapore math or any math -- the secret is not speed. It's how deep it goes into encouraging thinking. If you look at the Singapore math curriculum sold here, they don't only have the text and workbooks but also challenging problems and intensive practice books. In Singapore, where I worked for a number of years, learning does not stop with the math curriculum in school. Students go to after school tuition centers (usually it's not only for enrichment because there, almost in all families, both parents work and they need some form of after-school care and enrichment centers are a nice 2-in-1). Parents invest a lot in math, reading and science enrichment toys and other forms of learning. It's not just learning via a curriculum at a quick pace. And bookstores selling math workbooks of all kinds at affordable prices are very widely available in almost every large mall or neighborhood (as opposed to mostly online shopping or only small bookstores in the US that sell mostly fiction/ non fiction and not math books).

 

In our home we do a mix of everything. My DH and I could not avoid our own cultural upbringing and expected our son to be compliant. At the same time, it broke my heart to see my son hating a particular learning style. So after some initial trial and error, we learned to adjust parental expectations and settled into a form of "structured unschooling/ interest-driven learning" that seems to have worked fabulously for him.

 

Edited to add:

I forgot to mention:

• In countries like Finland and Singapore, math is taught by subject matter experts. Teachers who have math degrees (in Singapore many also have grad school qualifications), not education degrees. When you are learning with someone with a math degree, you are not just learning from an expert, but very likely, from someone who loves math enough to learn it to that level (and very likely someone who keeps learning even after obtaining a degree). This difference in attitude/ qualifications/ passion goes very far to inspire kids.
• The US curriculum kills kids with repetition. Every single textbook I've seen that goes up a level spends SO many pages repeating and reviewing previous levels. Perhaps that has something to do with population too...so many kids here and so many levels of learning and perhaps why they repeat and repeat trying to get everyone up to speed or at the same level (but that rarely works right?). Good teachers, confident teachers will know what to skip and move on and/ or differentiate for higher ability learners. Again, back to the teacher qualifications point. In Singapore, math is integrated and growing up in a similar education system, I don't remember the level of repetition that I see in US curriculum. Not sure what it is like in Dubai.

Edited December 24, 2016 by quark

[daijobu]

Like PPs have said, read the Smartest Kids book, and you'll find a wealth of information about S Korea and Finland.  I'm a few years away from reading it, but from what I remember about Finland, they eliminated many of their teacher training colleges so it suddenly became very competitive to become a teacher, and only the best could hope to be admitted.  

 

I agree with a PP that the system in S Korea seems like a waste.  Kids sleep through regular school because the teaching is so bad or nonexistent, but instead do all their learning and studying in after school programs all afternoon and into the night.  Why bother with regular school?  

[Homeschooler in Dubai]

Thanks to everyone :001_smile:

 

Looks like Singapore Curriculum is the right one for us then. Especially if you say it doesn't bore students with repetition. (You can always repeat yourself or complement with other math curricula). Saxon math also has probably a lot of repetition?

 

@quark: Could you give us an example of how an interest driven learning of math looks like? Which grades are you homeschooling math at the moment?

 

I am not from Dubai but from Germany. I have not been here to school nor have I taught here so don't know what it's like here.

[mathnerd]

There are positives and negatives to every country and culture. I am not Asian. But, I have observed the dominance of South Korea in my field of work (a STEM area) and have been an admirer of the depth of the mathematical talent in their country: they have dominated the IMO for decades : https://www.imo-official.org/country_individual_r.aspx?code=KOR

Most asian countries have the culture of cram schools etc. But, that does not mean that those countries do not have depth in their education system and do not produce academic talent (just take a walk around the campus of any elite American college's STEM department to see how the student population is spread amongst ethnicities). I have traveled and lived in asian countries before I had kids - and most good schools in metropolitan areas there have teachers for science, math etc with graduate degrees in those areas - combine that with afterschool tutoring centers where tutors with PhDs who have deep domain knowledge (this is very common in the big cities) it is easy for a middle class kid with strong parental support to learn a STEM subject with far greater depth than what is being offered in any textbook. That could be one of the reasons why South Korean kids do well in math and science. 

 

[quark]

Thanks to everyone :001_smile:

 

Looks like Singapore Curriculum is the right one for us then. Especially if you say it doesn't bore students with repetition. (You can always repeat yourself or complement with other math curricula). Saxon math also has probably a lot of repetition?

 

@quark: Could you give us an example of how an interest driven learning of math looks like? Which grades are you homeschooling math at the moment?

 

I am not from Dubai but from Germany. I have not been here to school nor have I taught here so don't know what it's like here.

 

For what it's worth, my son found Singapore math repetitive too (ETA: I meant using the IP and CWP books as well). But that could be due to his very big picture learning style. Mine is an only child homeschooled from K to 6th and then more heavily outsourced and then grade skipped from 7th. If you are reading this post on the WTM forums site (mobile might not show signatures), you can see some of the interest-led books we used in my signature. I have also updated the path my son took thereafter (using the local college and state flagship university for dual enrollment).

Edited December 30, 2016 by quark

[SoCal_Bear]

FWIW, with Singapore Math, the value for our family has been more with the IP and CWP books for more challenge and depth. The TB/WB by itself was not enough for us. You can see in my siggy all the math resources we tap into besides SM.

[daijobu]

BTW, my family enjoyed the linked BBC documentary.  Thank you for posting, OP!  

[Homeschooler in Dubai]

@Quark and Calbear; I could not see your signature I was using my laptop.Can someone explain how to get there please

[SoCal_Bear]

If posters have a signature, it appears at the bottom of every single post they have made.

[quark]

http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/topic/320275-designing-a-non-traditional-math-course-for-a-math-loving-structure-hating-child/

 

This is the thread I was refering to. Post 19 summarizes a good chunk of our math path. The rest is basically honors abstract algebra at our local uni in spring followed by starting full time (hopefully) at uni next fall.

 

Good luck!

[Ad astra]

Wow, what a great discussion!!

 

I'm Korean who spent most of my life in S. Korea and moved to the States at age 28 so I can relate myself to this topic but what I'm going to write below is just my personal opinion and does not represent my country.  :)

 

I see a good point in everyone's comment and sort of agree with most of you. There seem to be always both sides of view on each culture and it is somewhat true that the educational environment in S. Korea is quite harsh and fiercely competitive... mainly because it is a very small country with a HUGE population but low natural resources, a handful of selective universities and very few decent job opportunities. The general expectations on workload and outputs are much higher than here, and such hard work and the rapid growth of the educated labor force are in fact what turned one of the poorest countries in the world in 1950s into a world's top 10 economy only in a few decades. Such early training and discipline have also allowed many of them, who moved to the States in their 20s or even 30s, to compete with Americans, get into Ivies/top schools and find high-income professional jobs despite their visa status and language barrier.

 

However, there are also lots of cons and side effects you all pointed out.. It is indeed a soul sucking experience for most students to go through such a rat race for 12 years. The schools in Korea teach to the test and heavily focus on memorization mainly for efficiency. When I went to school, there were 50~60 kids in each class. The teacher-student ratio is much better now, but the standardized curriculum and tests are still the core in the S. Korean education system and there is very little room for creativity or flexibility, as mentioned previously. When everyone wants the same thing, getting into top schools and well-paid jobs, a merit system becomes important. Korean people hardly put up with any kid of privilege or inequality when it comes to education and college entrance. Thus, there is very little quality/price difference between public and private schools and no legacy preferences in college admission. The K-12 curriculum is nationally standardized and the high school GPA and standardized test scores are the most important factors for college matriculation. So, for many Koreans, the "holistic" U.S. college admissions often come across as confusing and somewhat subjective.  

 

Oh, and it is not true most Korean students sleep through the day at school, especially if they wish to get into any college. They are just required to work much harder and for longer hours than most American students do in average. In elementary school, students take midterm and final exams on all 10 subjects, including music, art and P.E. Lots of cramming, yes. Lot more pressure and stress, yes. Brain working less effectively, yes and no. When you do it everyday, you get used to this routine and your tolerance level grows. Well, everyone is studying and working hard, so there is basically no other choice anyway unless you don't care about falling way behind in the system.    

 

My DH (Caucasian American) and I (Korean immigrant) try to find some middle ground between these two starkly different mentalities for our family. He often tells me he learned the value of hard work and dedication from me and it helps him excel at work. And I learned from him to be more self-content, care less about what others think and love the learning itself. I feel fortunate my kids don't have to go through what I did in S. Korea, but at the same time I also find a majority of the public schools in the U.S. are... quite lacking, according to my experience of sending them to three different PS in the North-West, Midwest and South. My son, whose academic levels are a few years ahead, is currently placed in 1st grade and there's almost zero differentiation for him. His teacher and principle are both very "laid-back" and defensive. I kind of expected this but sent him to school anyway for social time because he is an extreme extrovert and I was not confident enough to continue to teach him in English. But I found out he has been only getting very short recess and lunch time--In S. Korea, 1st graders get a 10-minute break every 40 minutes and an hour-long lunch break.--and the school's art/music classes are awful. The school doesn't do much for science and social studies, either, and the only text book they are using for 1st graders is Go Math--Every South Korean students receive and own brand new textbooks and workbooks for all 10 subjects, that are nicely printed in color and for free, in the beginning of the school year. Therefore, I have been heavily afterschooling him and am most likely to pull him out at the end of Christmas break as it is obvious his school doesn't teach anything new to him and he is not even getting enough social time there. He is begging me to homeschool. We are military and it is unfortunately not possible for us to move to one of the best school districts in the U.S.   

 

About Singapore Math... honestly I haven't found anything special about this program so far. Its method of introducing different ways of thinking, e.g. regourping and bar models, is very similar to how I learned math when I was in school. The S. Korean math curriculum is not necessarily fast paced, especially in elementary school, but the school tests are more focused on its applications while the American schools mostly just teach basic concepts and review them with simple and direct questions. They do learn calculus in high school. IMO, Primary Math is not challenging nor advanced. It can be compared to the basic text books the Asian elementary schools use. My biggest pet peeve about Intensive Practice and Challenging Word Problems is there is no teaching incorporated in these. There are only questions and answers, but nothing else, no explanations for the advanced concepts or each problem solving process. Another difference I found is that Korean students don't just use a single curriculum for each subject. Education is a HUGE business in S. Korea and there are tons of different options for K-12 curricula/workbooks at different levels. Many students use a variety of programs for math. For some, it can be an overkill for sure, then there are also many different types of advanced math books to choose from, too. 

 

In short, I think you all as homeschooling parents are making a great balance for your kids. I don't know anything about Finland, so can't compare, lol. 

[daijobu]

Thank you for posting, Moon, and sharing your impressions of S Korean and US education.  

[8filltheheart]

Hi everyone,

 

I recently watched this documentary which came out this year about the education system in South Korea:

 

Initially I wanted to know what is so special about Asian Countries education. Why are they so high in ranking? I found out that it's because they study 14-16 hours a day, in some countries even 7 days a week with a lot of pressure and only about 4-6 hours of sleep a day. The South Korean children will do a math High School exam which is supposed to take about an hour in 15 minutes and find it too easy because it is what they do in Primary School!

 

This documentary raised some questions which I couldn't find an answer for yet.

 

1. How come that Finland is so high up in the international ranking (comparison test) together with the Asian countries even though the study time of both Finland and Asian countries is so different (Finland: 4-6hours a day versus South Korea: 14-16 hours a day)?

 

2. Isn't the human brain working less effective under such extreme conditions like in South Korea?

 

3. Is the Singapore math curriculum which is everywhere available now really that fast (like in South Korea High School stuff at Primary)?

I agree that if this sort of information is new to you that Smartest Kids in the World is a book you might find informative.

 

To take your questions in a slightly different direction, I would ask what the long term differences are. What are the adult levels of life goal achievement when comparing different educational philosophies? Are intense academics at a young age directly correlated with high academic achievement and career goal aspirations in ways that other educational approaches are incapable of achieving?

 

For me, those latter questions are vital. I approach education with the whole child at the center, not just their minds. I want to educate their minds, bodies, and souls. In order to do that, I ask myself what are the goals of education? What are my goals for my children? What are my children's individual goals? What does each individual child need to accomplish in order to achieve their goals? Are their days spent embracing life in joy? Are they happy? Are they physically healthy?

 

One of my highest educational priorities is helping my children become strong independent critical thinkers. That is the antithesis of focusing a child's education on memorization. Bloom's taxonomy is a simple introduction into thinking about educational goals in terms of a hierarchy of critical thinking objectives. These links give a brief overview:

http://www.celt.iastate.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/RevisedBloomsHandout-1.pdf

http://teaching.uncc.edu/learning-resources/articles-books/best-practice/goals-objectives/writing-objectives

http://www.nwlink.com/~donclark/hrd/bloom.html

 

So back to the original questions I proposed, are kids who are being educated via different methodologies able to reach the same level of achievement by the end of high school without following the long hours and long school yrs that are exemplified by the S. Korean model? I think that the Finland study suggest yes. I know that my homeschool affirms it for me with the level of achievement my kids manage. More importantly, they live life. Their souls are nurtured and they embrace their days. Learning is a love that they pursue on their own, not something to be checked off and mastered b/c it is required.

 

As you investigate different educational philosophies, single outcomes are only useful if the path getting there is one that you value.

Edited December 31, 2016 by 8FillTheHeart

[sewingmama]

I taught English in South Korea for a while. The only good thing I think we can learn from them is that kids are expected to be kids and their job is to go to school and be students. The kids do not feel any pressure to grow up too fast and therefore they are sweet and innocent for a lot longer then kids in the Western world typically are.

 

However there are way to many cons to ever consider this type of system as a good one. Its discouraging to ask kids what they like to do outside of school and have every single one reply sleep or play video games. No one has a unique pastime or hobby or interest...there isnt enough time.

 

And the cheating is out of this world. Its par for the course that every kid cheats and they do it openly as adults and teachers overlook it. I caught kids cheating all the time and the head teachers would be ..so..if they dont get good grades their parents will be shamed ..its basically expected. They may have high scores but does it really count if they wrote all their answers on their arm beforehand?

 

No kid loves learning..its so forced on them they cant see it as fun. They learn what they are made to for the test and thats the end. Once the kids get into Uni the pressure slacks off because "they made it" and its standard for the Uni students to not get good grades...slack in class..miss class...sleep in class. The teachers pass them anyway as ..hey ..they made it.. they dont need to prove themselves anymore.

 

Korean kids are no smarter then Western kids...just better at memorising and being in class 14 hours a day 6 days a week...some stuff does stick better.

[daijobu]

I forgot to mention, did anyone else find it highly offensive that the show played "kung fu fighting" as their theme for South Korea?  Weird and offensive.  

[PollyOR]

I forgot to mention, did anyone else find it highly offensive that the show played "kung fu fighting" as their theme for South Korea?  Weird and offensive.  

 

I was ... um.... surprised.

[Ad astra]

sewingmama,

 

I do respect your experience and opinion, but I think it is an overgeneralization to say "Every kid cheats." and "No kid loves the learning." in S. Korea. If I said "All American kids are slacking and less educated. They play video games and watch tv unlimitedly at home, play outside without any adult supervision, and hardly study or read.", such remarks would be highly offensive and not even true (though I'm describing many of my neighbor kids. My family is the only one who doesn't own a video game device in this neighborhood.) I have never cheated on tests myself and never seen anyone cheating at my school. (Well, I did see a few in college but it was no way prevalent even then.) I don't know in which setting and to whom you were teaching English, but the cheating usually gets strictly punished in Korean PS because, like I mentioned, Koreans do not like and are very sensitive about others taking such unfair shortcuts in this academic competition toward college admission. A few still try and occasionally make the headlines but they are highly criticized by the public.

 

Also, IMO, in every culture there are some lucky ones who found their passion and talent at young age and could pursue it, while many others still struggle in their 30s to find what they want. The educational environment sucks for most but some Koreans have still followed their dreams and become the world's class sports stars, artists, musicians, actors, K-POP stars, etc. I just watched the video that OP posted right before I wrote this comment, and those kids who go to multiple after-school classes at hagwon and study that hard until late at night should be compared to the American applicants for Ivy League schools, who are also extremely busy and under a lot of stress to be "well-rounded." The difference is that Korean students are only required to do the seatwork, studying books and taking tests, while American top-school applicants do sports and play instruments at a state competition level, go volunteering for hours every weekend, participate and show leadership in several clubs, write amazing essays and so on. Phew. It's just that not many American students go down this Ivy-prep route because luckily the college name doesn't determine their rest of life and there are many other ways to be successful in the U.S. The situation in S. Korea is different and the competition in the adult world is only getting worse. The living cost in S. Korea is similar to the one in U.S. major cities but the minimum wage there is much lower than what you get here with much less work. With the recent economic downturn, the "party time" for college students came to an end, too. A majority of college students nowadays continue to study hard, not only to maintain a high undergrad GPA but also to be more competitive in a job market, on English, other foreign languages, IT certificates, etc., in order to get a job in one of the few big companies like Samsung, LG, and Hyundai.

 

I actually had fun at school, believe it or not. I have a lot of pleasant memories with my classmates from all those long hours we spent together. We didn't just study nonstop, lol. Oh, and the food.... you can't beat the freshly cooked, nutritious and yummy school lunch (and dinner served in high school) in S. Korea, lol. During my K-12 school years, I had no worries but studying and it was okay. I never went to after-classes at hagwons like the students in the video but did well on tests and got into a top univ because I was self-motivated and enjoying the feeling of achievement. Those important and trivial facts on science, history, geography and even music theory I had to memorize still help me now and then. Think classical homeschoolers like many of you on this board also value the memorization at least in elementary years.

 

No one said that Korean kids are naturally smarter than the Western ones... because it is simply not true. But if they were only good at memorizing, not so many of Korean immigrants would be excelling at schools in the U.S. as well. And they are known to be especially good at math and science, which have least to do with rote memorization. I rather attribute their international test scores and other academic accomplishments to hard work and dedication, along with parental involvement/support and focus on education.

 

The Korean society has changed fast over the past 50 years and still is. A lot of its people are aware of their system's problems and trying to improve them. The standardized tests has changed from checking the facts towards testing logical/critical thinking and reading comprehension skills more. Cheating on Korean SAT by writing on one's arm has been impossible for decades. Lots of Korean parents try to make the learning fun, read aloud books to kids and expose them to various extracurricular activities from early, until the college prep becomes a priority later. Many of them studied in the Western countries and try to apply the pros to their situation. I believe such changes are also happening in other Asian countries like China, Japan, Hong Kong, and Singapore, where the educational environments are similarly overheated and competitive.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Moon

[SarahW]

Okay, so, one thing really bugs me about the documentary.

 

The exchange students are placed in one of the top of the top high schools in Seoul (and presumably the country) with wealthy parents paying for afterschool tutoring. And then they make a huge deal out of the fact that the students there all passed the math GSCE, and the fact that poor, rural Welsh students find it difficult. Um, that's not a fair comparison. At all. Compare the GSCE performance with Eton or the like. PISA rankings really don't say much except for the level of achievement gap, not between countries, but within countries. 

[ondreeuh]

Okay, so, one thing really bugs me about the documentary.

 

The exchange students are placed in one of the top of the top high schools in Seoul (and presumably the country) with wealthy parents paying for afterschool tutoring. And then they make a huge deal out of the fact that the students there all passed the math GSCE, and the fact that poor, rural Welsh students find it difficult. Um, that's not a fair comparison. At all. Compare the GSCE performance with Eton or the like. PISA rankings really don't say much except for the level of achievement gap, not between countries, but within countries.

But that was the point. The South Korean kids in that school were better prepared for the test than the Welsh kids (who were not poor, iirc).

 

The PISA actually does compare different groups within each country. In The Smartest Kids in the World, the author compares kids of different backgrounds within each country and can say that the most affluent kids in the US did not match up to the most affluent in these other countries.

[8filltheheart]

Cheating on Korean SAT by writing on one's arm has been impossible for decades.

Moon, I agree with your post that it is unjust to stereotype a society by the actions of a few. But I disagree that cheating on the SAT is a decades old problem. It is a problem. It is not restricted to S.Korea, but neither is it an issue that can be dismissed as not existing. http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-sat-two/

http://www.businessinsider.com/act-cheating-south-korea-and-hong-kong-2016-6

 

The TOEFL is another test that has faced a lot of cheating. http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=144334

 

Unfortunately, the honest students suffer the consequences for the cheating industry when test dates are cancelled or cast doubt on validity of scores.

[Ad astra]

Moon, I agree with your post that it is unjust to stereotype a society by the actions of a few. But I disagree that cheating on the SAT is a decades old problem. It is a problem. It is not restricted to S.Korea, but neither is it an issue that can be dismissed as not existing. http://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/college-sat-two/

http://www.businessinsider.com/act-cheating-south-korea-and-hong-kong-2016-6

 

The TOEFL is another test that has faced a lot of cheating. http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=144334

 

Unfortunately, the honest students suffer the consequences for the cheating industry when test dates are cancelled or cast doubt on validity of scores.

 

I was referring to the "Korean SAT" that most Korean students take for the college admission in S. Korea. Maybe a bad translation. In S. Korea, high school seniors take this test at the same time on the same day in November nationwide, and the test, consisting of highly complicated and comprehensive questions, is strictly proctored and receives national attention, and any act of cheating results in severe penalty. 

 

Regarding the incidents on the American SAT and TOEFL you quoted, I was by no means defending those cheating students/businesses(hakwons) nor implying they don't exist. It fact, they were highly criticized and shamed by the public, like I mentioned. I was just saying cheating is not as prevalent nor the norm in Korea as the previous poster described. I also tried to shed light on the background of such education fever and the recent positive changes in S. Korea. 

[73349]

Thanks for sharing the video.

 

The Welsh kids would have trouble waking up here in the US as well--I don't know any high school that starts later than 8 AM, and most are closer to 7:15. But US schools let out early (often by 3 for high school). I was at first surprised that the Korean parents would not demand that their children get home in time to get 8 hours' sleep, but I know that some American parents tolerate late nights also (though more likely because the child had a sports game or arts rehearsal than the academic load itself).

 

I've used some of the lower levels Singapore math with DS, and it doesn't especially seem accelerated compared to whatever we used in a regular US public school when I was a child. However, I think American students are often allowed to move up to the next grade without a solid understanding of the material, and many elementary school teachers do not especially have math as a strength--in some cases, having squeaked by in Algebra 2 in 11th grade and never taken a math course again. It sounds like there may be similar issues in Wales. (When I was in 9th grade, my math teacher's response to "Why do we have to learn this?" was "A Japanese guy's going to take your job." US high school teachers are clear on the global situation.)

 

Decisions we make as a family or as a culture about educational priorities are based in our values. I want my child to have good food, sleep, exercise, and some free time, because I value health; to stay curious and enjoy mental exercise, including reading and doing math and science for enjoyment, because I value inquiry and fun; to have high moral standards for himself; to be exposed to great ideas and arts; and to reach his potential.

I don't, however, have a need for him to be The Very Best at things (unless they're his own passions, in which case he should do the driving). Fortunately, we are not in a cutthroat economic situation, and many people can do well. Anyway, I believe strongly that there's a point of diminishing returns for any kind of work. The Korean kids could go to bed at 9 or 10 and still do fine by international standards--perhaps even better with the improved rest.

My husband and I would not consider trying to have DS do schoolwork 90 hours a week. DH graduated at the top of his university class with less time than that (comp sci major/math minor), and we don't want a younger child to work quite as hard as young adults do. I can see how kids burn out after years of that.

Edited January 2, 2017 by whitehawk

[daijobu]

I have many criticisms of the education system in the US, but one thing we do excel at is giving people second chances.  Not that it's easy, but if you mess up early in life, there are community colleges and vocational schools that can rope you back onto your educational track.  I just met a guy who went off to college only to "party too hard" so he enrolled in the army, got them to pay for his undergrad and med school and is now a successful radiologist.  I think med school in many countries is only available to those who achieve and achieve early.   

 

One more critique of the BBC documentary.  Did anyone else notice that after they administered the exam to the S Korean students, they were asked to volunteer whether the exam was easy or difficult?  Was it too much trouble to actually grade the exams and compare them to the English kids' scores?  Who is going to publicly self-report that they did poorly on the exam?  (I don't doubt that the S Korean kids did extremely well compared to the English kids, but why didn't they just score the exams?)