Self Help - What a crock!

[goldberry]

On one of the net price calculators, the bottom number ended up being $14000.  But the you go a line up and it says:

Self Help $7800

 

When you click on that, it says, this amount from student working, parent loans, etc.

 

WTH?  That is still money we are supposed to come up with.  What's the point in separating it, just to look better?  Our COST is what is going to be have to paid by us (one way or another) to the college.  That COST is $21780, not $14000.

 

Just a vent I guess.  This whole process is ridiculous.  Not that we even have $14000.

[amsunshine]

On one of the net price calculators, the bottom number ended up being $14000.  But the you go a line up and it says:

Self Help $7800

 

When you click on that, it says, this amount from student working, parent loans, etc.

 

WTH?  That is still money we are supposed to come up with.  What's the point in separating it, just to look better?  Our COST is what is going to be have to paid by us (one way or another) to the college.  That COST is $21780, not $14000.

 

Just a vent I guess.  This whole process is ridiculous.  Not that we even have $14000.

 

The whole thing is definitely ridiculous.  We are going to be chasing guaranteed merit and competitive merit scholarships.  Have you looked into those?  Checked the college confidential website?

[goldberry]

Yes.  She will definitely be getting some, but our state schools although fairly affordable are pretty stingy with merit.  There is one private "reach" school she is applying to, known for good merit, but I'm not sure her stats are high enough for *that* school, although they are higher end for the other schools she is applying to.

 

Calling part of the money you will owe "self help" is just lame.... 

[8filltheheart]

When I give "Homeschool to College" talks, one of the first things I address is financial aid and NPC. I immediately follow up on any comment about NPC (as well as financial aid packages bc they do the exact same thing) by emphasizing that they cannot just look at the highlighted "total cost" bc schools like to pretend that loans are not a cost. Ridiculous? Absolutely. But they definitely engage in the practice like loans mean you don't have to fork it over right away so therefore just don't think about it.

[bettyandbob]

Everyone needs a euphemism.

[teachermom2834]

Yeah...everything we fork over is going to be "self help".

 

We are another family that can't even begin to pay our EFC...so in state schools and guaranteed merit aid narrow the lists extensively.

[Lori D.]

Similar to 8FillTheHeart; whenever I give a session for our homeschool group, I also break down those college costs for families, with the quick formula and what all goes into those 3 areas of the formula.I  always point out that there are FOUR places where loans are expected to come into play for paying for college. From now on, I'll make sure to mention that about the Net Price Calculators only "imply" the loans by "hiding" them, and suggest families calculate costs themselves using the formula. 

 

COA - EFC = Need

 

COA = Cost of Attendance

The total cost of attending the specific college which comes from:

- tuition

- fees

- books

- room & board

- transportation costs

- supply costs

- personal expenses

 

EFC = Estimated Family Contribution (through the FAFSA, what gov't thinks you should pay for college)

Families pay for this amount through:

- student income

- student savings and assets

- parent income

- parent savings and assets 

- private parent loan 

 

Financial Need (the difference between COA and EFC)

Colleges cover between 60%-100%** of this Financial Need by offering a Financial Aid PACKAGE made up of:

- federal/state grants

- federal work study

- scholarships

- student loans

- parent plus loans

 

** = if the college package does not cover 100% of the Financial Need, whatever is not covered through the financial aid package offered by the college must be covered by the family, which comes from:

- additional student income/savings/assets

- additional parent income/savings/assets

- additional parent private loans

Edited December 7, 2016 by Lori D.

[goldberry]

Everyone needs a euphemism.

 

:lol:

[clementine]

I agree - that's misleading.

 

Here's a beef of ours.  Our dd's favorite school participates in the MIdwest Exchange, which includes states A,B,C,D, and E.  The only state in that list that they don't give a tuition break to is OURS.  The difference in tuition is $10,000 - that's unfortunately a deal-breaker for us.  Frustrating.  

[creekland]

On one of the net price calculators, the bottom number ended up being $14000.  But the you go a line up and it says:

Self Help $7800

 

When you click on that, it says, this amount from student working, parent loans, etc.

 

WTH?  That is still money we are supposed to come up with.  What's the point in separating it, just to look better?  Our COST is what is going to be have to paid by us (one way or another) to the college.  That COST is $21780, not $14000.

 

Just a vent I guess.  This whole process is ridiculous.  Not that we even have $14000.

 

Actually, it's even a little more detailed than this because they go off of what they consider to be "average" cost of attendance.  Your student might be higher or lower than average.  If higher, your number is higher.  That can come through more lab fees, books, personal items, or travel costs (etc) than what is allowed.  If lower, at least you get that in "lower cost."

 

Beware that work study is not guaranteed either.  It's a max amount the student can earn under the program.  They need to find the job and get enough hours to max that amount off.  It was no problem for my guys, but not all students go looking for jobs quickly or want that many hours or even follow through keeping the job.

 

To get a true bottom line, I tell parents to look at realistic numbers for them.  

[TranquilMind]

Parent private loans? 

The worst thing you can possibly do is financially obligate yourself well into retirement and become a burden on your children then because you can't afford to eat.  (Especially if you are old parents, as we are). 

 

Gah.
 

Edited December 7, 2016 by TranquilMind

[G5052]

One of my gripes is that it really doesn't take into account more complicated family situations. Yes, you can write a letter explaining, but I'm not sure how often those are truly considered.

 

The first time I saw the FAFSA numbers, I felt completely sick. DH was actively talking early retirement for medical reasons, but nothing definite. So we should drain the retirement accounts with that on the horizon?

 

As it turned out, we chose to go cheap "in case." My oldest will be graduating from the CC in May and commuting to a top-rated 4-year school. And indeed DH is retiring the end of this month. My pay and his pension may get us by, but we're going to start on the investments at some point. We have college $$$ saved for local options and perhaps to get them settled in if they go away for graduate school. 

 

Our finances are more of a concern than ever, of course. I'm bummed that the FAFSA won't reflect our month-to-month income for a few years. 

[Lori D.]

One of my gripes is that it really doesn't take into account more complicated family situations. Yes, you can write a letter explaining, but I'm not sure how often those are truly considered.

 

The first time I saw the FAFSA numbers, I felt completely sick. DH was actively talking early retirement for medical reasons, but nothing definite. So we should drain the retirement accounts with that on the horizon?

 

As it turned out, we chose to go cheap "in case." My oldest will be graduating from the CC in May and commuting to a top-rated 4-year school. And indeed DH is retiring the end of this month. My pay and his pension may get us by, but we're going to start on the investments at some point. We have college $$$ saved for local options and perhaps to get them settled in if they go away for graduate school. 

 

Our finances are more of a concern than ever, of course. I'm bummed that the FAFSA won't reflect our month-to-month income for a few years. 

 

You may hit that window of FAFSA doubling up on the same tax info for 2 years in a row, because you'll be submitted last year's tax figures again this year, which won't show DH's retirement, which can have a gigantic negative impact on your EFC number. At least it did for us. When DH retired 3 years ago, all of his retirement funds, which had been "hidden" because not accessible to taxes or to us until he was retired, suddenly "came out into the open", and those are now assets that could be spent on college. Of course he retired right when both DSs were in the first part of their college years, so there went any possibility of work study or grants until DSs are over age 26 and living independently.

 

(And, no, colleges don't care if those retirement assets are all you and your spouse have to live on for the retirement decades of your lives -- in THEIR minds, spending it all on college costs IS a perfectly valid and reasonable option. :( )

[Guest]

Self help is explicitly making the point that the student's senior year and summer job earnings should be available for his investment in his college education. My objection is that its hard for a 16 year old senior to meet that, as jobs arent available in my community for them. No issue for 17s, but 14 thru 16 is extremely difficult.

[FaithManor]

Self help is explicitly making the point that the student's senior year and summer job earnings should be available for his investment in his college education. My objection is that its hard for a 16 year old senior to meet that, as jobs arent available in my community for them. No issue for 17s, but 14 thru 16 is extremely difficult.

In my county, limited babysitting gigs and detassling corn are the only high school jobs available. When unemployment hit 24% here at the height of the mortgage scandal, adults with significant job training, licenses, and degrees took any job they could find. We lost tons of small businesses, and many sah parents went to work wherever they could to help offset wage loss of the primary earner. It never went back to normal. At one point the community closest to us - town of 1500 people total - had 102 houses in foreclosure! The economy did not recover but it is not taken into consideration with FAFSA.

 

Our local bank told us that 4H kids are the only ones with savings accounts. That makes sense. The ones in the ag science programs are raising meat animals, selling them, selling aggs, running produce stands in the summer. But the only other 4H kids who have earned a dime are those in our STEM club or on the rocket team who have earned cash prizes for their achievements. The only way my guys have made any money besides their cash prize and scholarships from 4H pursuits/science fairs/TARC has been farm sitting. They had riding lessons at one point, and worked for a friend who owned a horse and fiber farm so working with livestock is a skill they possess. Most teens do not possess these skills.

 

The runaway costs are largely fueled by the private student and parent loan industry. Without that, states would have to help students more, colleges would have to contain costs, colleges would have to divert money away from sports and into a larger scholarship pool...that or fail to fill their halls while community colleges burst at the seams.

[Guest]

Colleges also are filling their seats with international students. High schools are beginning the same trend. Ours wasnt making enough money with it, as their IB wasnt strong enough and their was no AP, plus rental costs are too high plus it was considered elitist, so it was canned.

 

Jobs here for teens who arent in the family business and are younger than 17 year olds consist of 3 slots at the town for youth counselors for a 4 week summer camp, and whatever the scout camp offers. If they have 300 dollars, they can take the lifeguard class and guard for the school district swim program at min wage. Most dont make a profit on that. Farms import seasonal labor, grocers have a deal with the high school to hire sn. Most young teens who cant find a job are merching...buy low, resell higher on CL.

Edited December 8, 2016 by Heigh Ho

[JanetC]

Wow. I hadn't heard about high schools recruiting internationals. But, it makes sense. Vancouver BC just put a tax on foreign real estate buyers, so now Chinese investors are bidding up Pacific Northwest mansions at 1 and 2 million to hide their assets. (Mostly the homes sit empty, but presumably these gazillionaires have kids studying somewhere.)

 

I'd like to point out that an NPC or financial aid offer pointing out the different between self-help and gift aid is actually a helpful thing. As you've realized, self-help is much less valuable.

 

Whether someone feels that a school which is not offering enough free money is worth the loans and campus job hours is ultimately up to them. Abolishing student loans without a replacement plan would put college out of reach for too many people.

[G5052]

You may hit that window of FAFSA doubling up on the same tax info for 2 years in a row, because you'll be submitted last year's tax figures again this year, which won't show DH's retirement, which can have a gigantic negative impact on your EFC number. At least it did for us. When DH retired 3 years ago, all of his retirement funds, which had been "hidden" because not accessible to taxes or to us until he was retired, suddenly "came out into the open", and those are now assets that could be spent on college. Of course he retired right when both DSs were in the first part of their college years, so there went any possibility of work study or grants until DSs are over age 26 and living independently.

 

(And, no, colleges don't care if those retirement assets are all you and your spouse have to live on for the retirement decades of your lives -- in THEIR minds, spending it all on college costs IS a perfectly valid and reasonable option. :( )

 

Arg. I hadn't thought of that end. So low income, but now it's available but not available. We have to conserve our funds because DH has a good chance of needing a nursing home at some point because he's barely mobile now and has memory issues.

 

I worked for fifteen years before kids, and then have worked since and always put some of it away, but the bulk of our savings are in DH's name. I don't know how they look at it if one is retired and one is not because I plan to keep working. But teaching pays dirt. Sometimes I wonder if I'll have to get something that pays better down the road.

 

I also get a pension from one job in four years. There's no benefit to waiting on it. Not huge $$$ but noticeable. That will impact too.

 

Ah well, they get you, don't they!

[FaithManor]

Arg. I hadn't thought of that end. So low income, but now it's available but not available. We have to conserve our funds because DH has a good chance of needing a nursing home at some point because he's barely mobile now and has memory issues.

 

I worked for fifteen years before kids, and then have worked since and always put some of it away, but the bulk of our savings are in DH's name. I don't know how they look at it if one is retired and one is not because I plan to keep working. But teaching pays dirt. Sometimes I wonder if I'll have to get something that pays better down the road.

 

I also get a pension from one job in four years. There's no benefit to waiting on it. Not huge $$$ but noticeable. That will impact too.

 

Ah well, they get you, don't they!

FASFA respects no human!

[G5052]

FASFA respects no human!

 

So I've decided.

 

If we didn't have the $$$ saved for commuter schools that thankfully have a wide range of programs including many that are nationally-ranked, I'd think I'd really be down about it.

 

So it's just a paperwork exercise for me so that they can get merit aid, which unfortunately the state colleges here don't emphasize.

[Lori D.]

Arg. I hadn't thought of that end. So low income, but now it's available but not available...

 

What I meant was, you might get a BENEFIT by hitting that window of FAFSA (when they use the same financial info 2 years in a row) for your financial aid this next school year (2017-18), as it would "hide" the retirement for one more year. So your DS *might* be eligible for federal aid next year, before the retirement money "shows up" on the FAFSA for the 2018-19 year.

 

 

... the bulk of our savings are in DH's name. I don't know how they look at it if one is retired and one is not because I plan to keep working... 

 

Alas, both parents' financial info is required by the FAFSA, so it won't matter whose name the retirement or savings is in. That is often very problematic for students whose parents are divorced, and one parent refuses to provide financial info -- it just means the student can't file the FAFSA and so can't receive any aid.

 

 

... We have to conserve our funds because DH has a good chance of needing a nursing home at some point because he's barely mobile now and has memory issues...

 

Another thought: is DH on disability? Or will he be on disability next year? Or would that be a better route (having DH apply for disability) for your family rather than going straight to retirement? Because if DH is on disability, that might qualify DS for some aid... Of course, if DH is of retirement age, he may not be eligible for disability...

 

I am so sorry your family is in such a difficult position. :(   :grouphug:  From what I'm seeing of nursing homes or in-home nursing care, there is a very good chance that will quickly suck up all of DH's retirement funds, and maybe your paycheck, too. Is DH a veteran? There might be the possibility of getting some expenses paid for through the VA, or have access to a veteran's nursing home. Just from my own extended family, I'm seeing that it takes having an able-bodied spouse or close relative aggressively go to bat and badger to get those funds.

[JanetC]

 

 

Alas, both parents' financial info is required by the FAFSA, so it won't matter whose name the retirement or savings is in. That is often very problematic for students whose parents are divorced, and one parent refuses to provide financial info -- it just means the student can't file the FAFSA and so can't receive any aid.

 

 

Actually, the divorce isn't a problem for FAFSA, which only asks for the custodial parent and their new spouse, if any. The problem with the CSS, which has a noncustodial parent version. Most CSS schools want the financial info of both parents.

 

One problem with the FAFSA is when the custodial parent remarries, and their new spouse does not want their income counted towards a child who is not their own. The FAFSA counts the custodial parent as a household, including the new spouse, not as an individual.

 

The other issue is when the divorce happens between the applicable tax return and filing the FAFSA. You cannot use the IRS retrieval tool because that is a joint return of a marriage that no longer exists. You can adjust the numbers to just the custodial parent's information, but it has been confusing people quite a bit with the prior-prior year FAFSA.

[G5052]

What I meant was, you might get a BENEFIT by hitting that window of FAFSA (when they use the same financial info 2 years in a row) for your financial aid this next school year (2017-18), as it would "hide" the retirement for one more year. So your DS *might* be eligible for federal aid next year, before the retirement money "shows up" on the FAFSA for the 2018-19 year.

 

Alas, both parents' financial info is required by the FAFSA, so it won't matter whose name the retirement or savings is in. That is often very problematic for students whose parents are divorced, and one parent refuses to provide financial info -- it just means the student can't file the FAFSA and so can't receive any aid.

 

Another thought: is DH on disability? Or will he be on disability next year? Or would that be a better route (having DH apply for disability) for your family rather than going straight to retirement? Because if DH is on disability, that might qualify DS for some aid... Of course, if DH is of retirement age, he may not be eligible for disability...

 

I am so sorry your family is in such a difficult position. :(   :grouphug:  From what I'm seeing of nursing homes or in-home nursing care, there is a very good chance that will quickly suck up all of DH's retirement funds, and maybe your paycheck, too. Is DH a veteran? There might be the possibility of getting some expenses paid for through the VA, or have access to a veteran's nursing home. Just from my own extended family, I'm seeing that it takes having an able-bodied spouse or close relative aggressively go to bat and badger to get those funds.

Thanks.

 

We're too high for need-based now, so I'm bummed that we're not going escape that window.

 

And I remembered too that they lump the retirement savings into one. Oh well. I had hoped to do the FAFSA over Thanksgiving, but DH latest surgery didn't go as well as we had hoped, and I ended up focusing on him and catching up on work. Good thing because I'm having to drive him both ways to work and PT until he retires. My day is packed. So the FAFSA will happen when I'm done teaching in a week.

 

We weighed disability retirement versus regular retirement, and regular retirement was actually better on multiple fronts. He'll be eligible for social security in 2017, and his employer pays the gap until then.

 

He talks of working as a consultant two days a week and has recruiters after him nearly every day, but I don't know if that's reasonable. He's a star performer despite his challenges, and his main doctor said that some patients with his type of dementia do improve with more rest and better health habits.

 

He's not a veteran. We do have long-term care insurance, but I realize that you can still run through the $$$ with that.

 

My mother had long-term care insurance and was in a $9,000/month facility for a year. The relative in charge never looked into something cheaper and never filed for the insurance. That's another colorful story.

 

Yesterday he was remarkably clear. I was very concerned dropping him off because he was so stiff, but then I was slightly late picking him up, and he had actually walked down the road from his building to an area that is actually easier for me to pull into. So every day is different.

 

Thankfully there are excellent nursing homes in our area, and several independent in-home care groups that I've heard good things about. I hired in-home help when he had his knee replacement so I could work from home, and they were lovely.

 

So a interesting period of life, for sure!

[JanetC]

FYI: Retirement funds that are designated as such with the IRS, such as in an IRA or 401K do not count as assets on the FAFSA. However, your payouts are income.

 

Depending on your college list, there are a lot of things in your situation you can document as part of a financial aid appeal. You will need to check with each school for their process. Some want you to get the initial offer, then appeal. Others want to know everything up front. Email the financial aid office and explain that you have a complicated situation not covered by the FAFSA and ask what they want you to do.

[FaithManor]

Hmmmm so let's see. Dh and I divorce on paper, I have "custody" of youngest ds, but er all live under one roof. My only income is tutoring and substitute teacher pay....hmmm....can we fool FAFSA and get financial aid that year???

 

:D

 

I know...totally dishonest...sigh.

 

We will have three in college at once, and I would bet money that our EFC will just be triple. It nearly doubled when ds2 went in and for dang certain our income didn't go up. Wanna bet they will ask for roughly half or more of our income?

 

Oh wait. I can't bet. We've got textbooks to buy for next semester.