Question for Heathens

[Moxie]

Sincere questions, I promise.

 

Heathen is a religion, correct?

 

Is it offensive to Heathens to use the word "heathen" to mean a bad person (thinking of the Twenty One Pilots song)?

 

Just curious.

[poppy]

Since heathenism is a  long established concept in Christianity (is a frequent word in the Bible) and this is a Christian band......... it's a culturally appropriate term for them to use, IMO (saying this as a non-Christian).

I don't think anyone complaining would have a leg to stand on.

But, I don't hear "heathen = bad person" in that song. I think the lyrics is using heathen to mean alienated, wary, outsiders, not fitting into society-- your typical angry young man thing.

 

[Georgiana Daniels]

Interesting question, and I didn't realize that Heathen was actually a religion. I guess I've only heard the term used as a negative reference. ETA: I guess if I were a Heathen, the term being used as anything other than describing my religion would be offensive.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Georgiana Daniels

[creekland]

I do not know the song.  I'm in the dinosaur category preferring to listen to songs from the old days (60s to 80s) and/or Contemporary Christian - and if they play on those stations, I don't recall that song.

 

That said, the only time I hear the word heathen IRL is when it is used in a joking manner and referring to someone who doesn't believe as the speaker does.  It can be any topic.  eg  "I don't like broccoli."  You heathen!" Same with "I don't like cats" or "I don't like ______ (sports) team," etc.  Aside from that, the word is not in use in my world.  Since I've only heard it used jokingly, I doubt I'd even really notice it in a song - or care about it.

[umsami]

I think you're thinking of paganism as a religion.  I don't believe heathenism was ever a religion, but was more of a general term for non-Christians, polytheists, etc.   But, of course, I could be wrong.

[Bluegoat]

I would describe it more as a catagory of belief, rather than a religion.  And often it's used to contrast with monotheistic religion in particular.

 

I don't think in its usual use people have had it to describe a particular religion or to use about themselves - however there are some groups I think that have taken up the word in more recent times to describe their own type of Neopaganism, which I think is based on the Germanic forms of paganism. 

 

I suspect that use is rather obscure though, most people would need an explanation if you used it that way.

[zoobie]

"Heathens" has slightly different meanings depending on context. I've heard it used negatively in a religious context ("avoid the heathens"), but usually it seems to be used in a lighter manner referring to someone who doesn't belong to a major religion or group. But I don't hang around with people who would use it in the heavy-handed religious context much. My parents' former hell-fire-and-damnation-preacher liked to use it in that manner. ;) I use it light-heartedly. As someone else said, not liking something. Last week one of DH's assistants said she didn't like chocolate desserts. I gasped and called her a heathen. 

[Bluegoat]

"Heathens" has slightly different meanings depending on context. I've heard it used negatively in a religious context ("avoid the heathens"), but usually it seems to be used in a lighter manner referring to someone who doesn't belong to a major religion or group. But I don't hang around with people who would use it in the heavy-handed religious context much. My parents' former hell-fire-and-damnation-preacher liked to use it in that manner. ;) I use it light-heartedly. As someone else said, not liking something. Last week one of DH's assistants said she didn't like chocolate desserts. I gasped and called her a heathen. 

 

I think I might argue that she was a heretic, rather than a heathen.

[Code Lyoko]

I think you're thinking of paganism as a religion.  I don't believe heathenism was ever a religion, but was more of a general term for non-Christians, polytheists, etc.   But, of course, I could be wrong.

This.

 

I think Heathenism is not a religion in and of itself but the term can be used to indicate the revival of a certain form of Germanic Neopaganism.  I believe it can also mean behavior tied with barbarism or idolatry or is sometimes used as a synonym for paganism.  I have also seen it used in a general sense to just mean someone who is not a Christian.  Depends on the context.

 

There are many forms of paganism, so "paganism" isn't a specific religion, either, as far as I understand it.  I think it is a more general term indicating a religion that is not based on the main stream world religions in existence currently (but I may be misunderstanding).  Pagans can be polytheistic or pantheistic or probably other istics that I am not aware of.  There are many different types of paganism being practiced, I believe.  Hopefully a paganist can help out.

Edited November 17, 2016 by Code Lyoko

[bolt.]

I think I might argue that she was a heretic, rather than a heathen.

I'm thinking maybe "blasphemer"?

[zoobie]

I think I might argue that she was a heretic, rather than a heathen.

 

Are you saying chocolate can't be a religious experience? ;)

[zoobie]

I think you're thinking of paganism as a religion.  I don't believe heathenism was ever a religion, but was more of a general term for non-Christians, polytheists, etc.   But, of course, I could be wrong.

 

Isn't it also in the Old Testament referring to non-believers which would mean not Jewish? The online dictionaries also say not Muslim, but I do not have any knowledge in that area. I've only heard far-right Christians refer to Muslims as heathens, which would obviously not be indicative of a wider world view usage.

[mamaraby]

Question for Heathens answered by not a single self-identified Heathen and decided not to be a religion by same.

 

Also not a Heathen or a pagan, but if I were to take Heathens at their word, I would say that yes, it is a religion because they self-identify as such. "Heathenry is a religion rooted in history and relevant in the modern age." (Source: http://www.thetroth.org/index.php?page=about&title=About%Us%20|%20The%20Troth&css=style2&pagestyle=mid)

 

And I would consider Paganism a religion as well with many flavors that voluntarily associate under the same umbrella.

Edited November 17, 2016 by mamaraby

[Code Lyoko]

Isn't it also in the Old Testament referring to non-believers which would mean not Jewish? The online dictionaries also say not Muslim, but I do not have any knowledge in that area. I've only heard far-right Christians refer to Muslims as heathens, which would obviously not be indicative of a wider world view usage.

The general definition means someone who follows a religion that does not worship the God of Christianity, Judaism or Islam.  (my post up thread gives more details).

 

 

Edited November 17, 2016 by Code Lyoko

[umsami]

"Heathens" has slightly different meanings depending on context. I've heard it used negatively in a religious context ("avoid the heathens"), but usually it seems to be used in a lighter manner referring to someone who doesn't belong to a major religion or group. But I don't hang around with people who would use it in the heavy-handed religious context much. My parents' former hell-fire-and-damnation-preacher liked to use it in that manner. ;) I use it light-heartedly. As someone else said, not liking something. Last week one of DH's assistants said she didn't like chocolate desserts. I gasped and called her a heathen. 

 

 

I think I might argue that she was a heretic, rather than a heathen.

 

 

I'm thinking maybe "blasphemer"?

 

Whatever she is, she is wrong.  :P

[Code Lyoko]

Question for Heathens answered by not a single self-identified Heathen and decided not to be a religion by same.

 

Also not a Heathen or a pagan, but if I were to take Heathens at their word, I would say that yes, it is a religion because they self-identify as such. "Heathenry is a religion rooted in history and relevant in the modern age." (Source: http://www.thetroth.org/index.php?page=about&title=About%Us%20|%20The%20Troth&css=style2&pagestyle=mid)

 

And I would consider Paganism a religion as well with many flavors that voluntarily associate under the same umbrella.

I don't know anyone who identifies as Heathen (and that link is just to one organization so I am uncertain if they speak for all Heathens or have just self-identified as a specific religion), but there IS a specific group of Heathens that have revived a particular form of Germanic paganism and are called Heathenists or Germanic Neopaganists.  I have no idea if other Heathens identify that way or not.  

 

I do know people who are pagans and I don't believe the people I know consider themselves as under one specific religion.  The term is used in a more general sense as I understand it.

 

But hopefully someone who is actually a pagan or a heathenist will chime in.

[MercyA]

Isn't it also in the Old Testament referring to non-believers which would mean not Jewish? The online dictionaries also say not Muslim, but I do not have any knowledge in that area. I've only heard far-right Christians refer to Muslims as heathens, which would obviously not be indicative of a wider world view usage.

 

"The word heathen is an older translation of the Hebrew word goyim in the Old Testament. The word goyim literally meant 'nations' and could refer broadly to all the nations of the world. In other contexts, the word was used to distinguish other nations from Israel, the people of God (Joshua 23:7; 1 Kings 11:2)...In the New Testament, the corresponding word is ethne, the source of our English word ethnic. It is the word used in Matthew 28:19 when Jesus commands His followers to make disciples of all 'nations.'"

 

https://gotquestions.org/what-is-a-heathen.html

[Tangerine]

I just like that I saw this thread and thought "I assume this is for me."

 

But Humanist, Pagan, etc.  I've never encountered anyone who self-identifies (seriously) as a Heathen. 

[Jean in Newcastle]

The 21 Pilots song is asking people not to be judgemental of others.  He identifies with the "heathens" who are his friends and asks for empathy for them.  Some people think that the "heathens" referred to are non-Skeleton Clique (21 Pilot fans) people who are starting to follow the group.  I think it can be a double entendre in that it can also ask Christians to not judge others because we aren't so different from them and still sin.  Hence the reference to murderers since we all "murder in our hearts" (Matt. 5:21-22). 

[Charlie]

The 21 Pilots song is asking people not to be judgemental of others.  He identifies with the "heathens" who are his friends and asks for empathy for them.  Some people think that the "heathens" referred to are non-Skeleton Clique (21 Pilot fans) people who are starting to follow the group.  I think it can be a double entendre in that it can also ask Christians to not judge others because we aren't so different from them and still sin.  Hence the reference to murderers since we all "murder in our hearts" (Matt. 5:21-22). 

 

The only "murder in my heart" is bacon.

 

True story.

 

[mamaraby]

I don't know anyone who identifies as Heathen (and that link is just to one organization so I am uncertain if they speak for all Heathens or have just self-identified as a specific religion), but there IS a specific group of Heathens that have revived a particular form of Germanic paganism and are called Heathenists or Germanic Neopaganists. I have no idea if other Heathens identify that way or not.

 

I do know people who are pagans and I don't believe the people I know consider themselves as under one specific religion. The term is used in a more general sense as I understand it.

 

But hopefully someone who is actually a pagan or a heathenist will chime in.

And likewise, I have read a number of works by pagans and have joined pagan religious celebrations and they considered themselves part of a number of different flavors under the general umbrella of paganism.

 

Neither you nor I are the arbiter of religious belief. Even if there is a group who decides that the label does not apply to them, there are those that do. In that case, I'll respect those who self identify accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that there are maybe those who do not feel the label applies and that's certainly within their right to self-identify as they choose.

 

Even if there is a Heathen on the board who desires to answer the question, though, we're still back to "it depends" and the general catch all of "answers may vary" are we not?

 

As for the Troth being one organization, yes, but that's also the organization that was brought up in another thread on TWTM in a thread on Heathenism which is why I referenced it here.

Edited November 17, 2016 by mamaraby

[Code Lyoko]

And likewise, I have read a number of works by pagans and have joined pagan religious celebrations and they considered themselves part of a number of different flavors under the general umbrella of paganism.

 

Neither you nor I are the arbiter of religious belief. Even if there is a group who decides that the label does not apply to them, there are those that do. In that case, I'll respect those who self identify accordingly. That doesn't change the fact that there are maybe those who do not feel the label applies and that's certainly within their right to self-identify as they choose.

 

Even if there is a Heathen on the board who desires to answer the question, though, we're still back to "it depends" and the general catch all of "answers may vary" are we not?

 

As for the Troth being one organization, yes, but that's also the organization that was brought up in another thread on TWTM in a thread on Heathenism which is why I referenced it here.

Okay. I wasn't actually arguing with you, just sharing my experience and perspective. I found the link interesting. I think we are saying the same thing. Basically, it depends. At least that is what I am getting out of this thread. Did I offend you? That was not my intention.

[creekland]

The 21 Pilots song is asking people not to be judgemental of others.  He identifies with the "heathens" who are his friends and asks for empathy for them.  Some people think that the "heathens" referred to are non-Skeleton Clique (21 Pilot fans) people who are starting to follow the group.  I think it can be a double entendre in that it can also ask Christians to not judge others because we aren't so different from them and still sin.  Hence the reference to murderers since we all "murder in our hearts" (Matt. 5:21-22). 

 

Now you have me curious about the song... I will probably have to find it and listen to it merely out of curiosity.

 

Are these folks anywhere near as awesome as Neil Diamond or U2?  ;)

[Jean in Newcastle]

Now you have me curious about the song... I will probably have to find it and listen to it merely out of curiosity.

 

Are these folks anywhere near as awesome as Neil Diamond or U2? ;)

lol Very different genres of music. 21 Pilots is rather unpolished musically. They experiment with lots of different styles. This particular song is partly grunge, partly electronic. And sort of a pseudo rap (rhythmic but still melodic). This is just my opinion though.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bluegoat]

I'm thinking maybe "blasphemer"?

 

That too!

Are you saying chocolate can't be a religious experience? ;)

 

Totally a religious experience. 

[creekland]

We heard this song on our trip yesterday.  It had already made it to a Classic Rock station that said it did songs from the 80s to the present. (How is that CLASSIC rock, but I digress.  I'm glad we were on the station to catch this song...)

 

I'll admit to loving it!  I was driving so I had hubby look up more about it - total lyrics, reason behind it, etc - and he came up with this site (tons of interesting info):

 

http://genius.com/Twenty-one-pilots-heathens-lyrics

 

I love the depth of the meaning(s) and the style rings well with my music loving nerves.  I'm also one of those Christians who has oodles of non-Christian friends, so when my Christian friends come over at the same time the others do, I really hope they respect the others and don't turn it all into an evangelism event...  And with all the folks I know (via school and my other circles), I know many of us have things in our lives we don't share too openly...

 

It's interesting with the meaning involving his Clique.  I had no idea they existed, but then again, I'm out of the loop with most modern music.  I know my boys (two of them anyway) love the group and have for a long time.

 

Never watched Suicide Squad... how was it as a movie?  When we get back home I'll have to see if it's available via Netflix yet.