Please help me understand this behavior

[Janie Grace]

Thanks, everyone. You were really helpful.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Janie Grace

[MEmama]

Passive aggressive narcissism.

 

It's common enough, but it stinks. Physical and emotional distance works well for me, but that's obviously not practical in every case.

 

Sorry you're stuck with dealing with it. :(

[JumpyTheFrog]

She sounds very manipulative and wrapped up in herself. NPD? I have no real life experience with anyone like this, so take it with a grain of salt.

Edited November 4, 2016 by HoppyTheToad

[Tanaqui]

Amateur diagnosis? Narcissism.

 

How to cope? It's like they say - stop expecting hot dogs from a taco stand. She won't give you the emotional fulfillment you need, so stop looking for it from her. (Additionally, and you probably have already figured this out, stop reacting to any power play designed to give her more attention. That's entirely counterproductive.)

 

There's a couple of websites on this subject which might be helpful in determining if I'm on to something or just crazy. First, Daughters of Narcisstic Mothers is very complete, and second - no matter what you think of the first link - I strongly suggest you visit the Raised by Narcissists subreddit to talk to people there. They can give some amazingly helpful advice even if you come to the conclusion that the armchair diagnosis does not fit your mother at all.

[Janie Grace]

Passive aggressive narcissism.

 

It's common enough, but it stinks. Physical and emotional distance works well for me, but that's obviously not practical in every case.

 

Sorry you're stuck with dealing with it. :(

 

Thanks. Interesting... as I was reading about this, I remembered another thing she does. When I arrive at her house, she will never come out and greet me. She is always busy deep inside the house somewhere (even if I have texted "there in 2 minutes!" or whatever). Even though she will say "looking forward to seeing you" she won't act like it in the moment (and when she arrives at my house, she spends forever straightening things up in the car before walking towards the house). It's like she subconsciously does not want to be seen as the initiator of affirming relational connection. Or she wants to feel "pursued" (which goes with wanting people to feel in debt, I think). This seems to fit the passive aggressive description. 

[zoobie]

Narcissistic and/or borderline given the manipulative behaviors.

 

:grouphug: It would be nice to all have sane parents.

[Janie Grace]

Amateur diagnosis? Narcissism.

 

How to cope? It's like they say - stop expecting hot dogs from a taco stand. She won't give you the emotional fulfillment you need, so stop looking for it from her. (Additionally, and you probably have already figured this out, stop reacting to any power play designed to give her more attention. That's entirely counterproductive.)

 

There's a couple of websites on this subject which might be helpful in determining if I'm on to something or just crazy. First, Daughters of Narcisstic Mothers is very complete, and second - no matter what you think of the first link - I strongly suggest you visit the Raised by Narcissists subreddit to talk to people there. They can give some amazingly helpful advice even if you come to the conclusion that the armchair diagnosis does not fit your mother at all.

 

Thank you. I have not considered this until recently. I thought narcissists were outgoing and loud. I just learned that there is a shy version, so I guess it is well within possibility.

[maize]

NPD is what came to my mind as well.

 

If that is what it is, it is not a path she chose intentionally or knows how to break out of. As crazy hurtful as it can be, there is a kind of innocence of understanding and intent--an actual disability when it comes to empathizing with and relating to others.

 

Reading books on NPD might be helpful to you, just to gain some perspective (and confirm that no it is not you who is crazy or has unreasonable expectations). There is also a book called Boundaries--I think one of the authors is Townsend? (someone correct me if I am wrong) that many people have found helpful in navigating relationships with someone like this.

 

I think it basically comes down to letting go of the hope that they will change, but making conscious decisions yourself about how you will interact with them and what limits you may need to place on those interactions for your own sanity.

 

It is OK to both love your mom and accept that she loves you while recognizing that her ability to really understand and respect you as a full and separate person is limited, and that it is up to you to maintain your identity and wholeness in spite of her if necessary--and to help your children navigate the same.

Edited November 3, 2016 by maize

[SparklyUnicorn]

You seem to want her to be a different mother than she is.  Which I get.  But let's say she has some diagnosable illness of some sort.  Would that change anything?  Obviously whatever her deal is she still functions.  So that's not really how that stuff works.  Meaning you can't tell her go to a shrink so she can be less of a jerk to you.  She would have to want to be less of a jerk.  She wouldn't likely, especially if she doesn't see herself as a jerk.  Or if we consider it is an illness and she can't control it, then what is there to do?  There is no magical fix for a lot of this stuff.  My parents were well medicated and had gone to every therapy known to man.  Hell, my mother even lived in the day of crap like shock treatment.  It didn't change her or cure her.  It basically kept her alive and that's about it.  None of that changes your personality either way. 

 

This dynamic reminds me VERY much of my mother and her mother.  My mother wanted so badly for her mother to be less selfish and to approve of her.  We used to tell my mother to stop looking for her mother's approval because her mother wasn't going to change.  And it was true.  My grandmother did not change.  My mother, unfortunately, didn't get completely past feeling down about it.  And she went to a lot of therapy to try. 

 

My suggestion is if you need to know that she has some illness that makes her unable to control the way she is, then assume she does and do what you need to do to cope with it.  Even if that means distancing yourself.  I have distanced myself from some family members because spending too much time with them the way they are has been too painful for me.  Yes, I would like to have a relationship with them, but when I've tried I just ended up hurt.  So I don't do that anymore.  It is what it is. 

 

 

 

 

[Plink]

There is no way to diagnose her over the internet, but as others have said, her behaviors seem narcissistic.  You might find help in one of these resources. http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/books-about-npd/

[SparklyUnicorn]

Another thought I have is do you ever speak up to her?  Do you flat out tell her that what she said hurts you?  I wonder how she would react. 

[Janie Grace]

Another thought I have is do you ever speak up to her?  Do you flat out tell her that what she said hurts you?  I wonder how she would react. 

 

When I have tried to do that, she gets VERY emotional (cries) and acts like I am a horrible person for wounding her this way. I get a long lecture on how all she ever tries to do is love me, why am I so critical, etc. 

[Tanaqui]

Another thought I have is do you ever speak up to her?  Do you flat out tell her that what she said hurts you?  I wonder how she would react.

 

Janie Grace's answer is fairly textbook, but there's something interesting - apparently, some studies have shown you can force narcissists to empathize with others by patiently asking them to frame events as though they were the person they happened to. No word yet on whether or not they can be trained to do it automatically without the prompt, or whether the results fade if you keep on asking them to do this.

 

And JG, as for what you said, the best response is no response. Narcissists want attention, and if you want to keep them in your life the only thing to do is carefully deny them attention for actions you don't like and then give them lots of positive attention for the things you do like. I've seen people suggest before that this does work, but it takes a lot of time and effort - and consistency.

[Janie Grace]

You seem to want her to be a different mother than she is.  Which I get.  But let's say she has some diagnosable illness of some sort.  Would that change anything?  Obviously whatever her deal is she still functions.  So that's not really how that stuff works.  Meaning you can't tell her go to a shrink so she can be less of a jerk to you.  She would have to want to be less of a jerk.  She wouldn't likely, especially if she doesn't see herself as a jerk.  Or if we consider it is an illness and she can't control it, then what is there to do?  There is no magical fix for a lot of this stuff.  My parents were well medicated and had gone to every therapy known to man.  Hell, my mother even lived in the day of crap like shock treatment.  It didn't change her or cure her.  It basically kept her alive and that's about it.  None of that changes your personality either way. 

 

This dynamic reminds me VERY much of my mother and her mother.  My mother wanted so badly for her mother to be less selfish and to approve of her.  We used to tell my mother to stop looking for her mother's approval because her mother wasn't going to change.  And it was true.  My grandmother did not change.  My mother, unfortunately, didn't get completely past feeling down about it.  And she went to a lot of therapy to try. 

 

My suggestion is if you need to know that she has some illness that makes her unable to control the way she is, then assume she does and do what you need to do to cope with it.  Even if that means distancing yourself.  I have distanced myself from some family members because spending too much time with them the way they are has been too painful for me.  Yes, I would like to have a relationship with them, but when I've tried I just ended up hurt.  So I don't do that anymore.  It is what it is. 

 

This is wise (and what dh keeps telling me). I need to come to terms with this being who she is and not treat it like a math problem I can somehow solve. I guess I just don't want to let go of the hope that one day she'll love me the way I want her to. But you're right; she's not going to change and I need to make peace with that.

[SparklyUnicorn]

This is wise (and what dh keeps telling me). I need to come to terms with this being who she is and not treat it like a math problem I can somehow solve. I guess I just don't want to let go of the hope that one day she'll love me the way I want her to. But you're right; she's not going to change and I need to make peace with that.

 

My dad said the weirdest thing to me recently about my grandmother (who sounds A LOT like your mother and yes I'm convinced she was a narcissist or something related).  I always wondered why my grandmother was so absent in our lives growing up.  My dad said on some level she did a selfless thing with staying away because she knew how difficult she was and she knew she could not change the way she was.  So the one way to not ruin her kids' lives as adults was to keep her distance.  That's kind of a weird thought, but maybe it's true.  I would not have interpreted it that way, but I'm too pessimistic. 

[gardenmom5]

When I have tried to do that, she gets VERY emotional (cries) and acts like I am a horrible person for wounding her this way. I get a long lecture on how all she ever tries to do is love me, why am I so critical, etc.

This is a cliche in npd mothers. E.v.e.r.y.t.h.i.n.g. is about them.

 

You note in your example she turns the focus to her, and she becomes the victim.

Edited November 3, 2016 by gardenmom5

[gardenmom5]

oh- there's a light bulb joke about this.

 

how many npd mother's does it take to change a light bulb?

none.  I'll just sit here in the dark.

 

 

 

it was my grandmother to a *T*!

[Laurie4b]

When I have tried to do that, she gets VERY emotional (cries) and acts like I am a horrible person for wounding her this way. I get a long lecture on how all she ever tries to do is love me, why am I so critical, etc. 

 

Ah yes, the "How dare you bleed all over my knife" move.