Language Immersion vs. classical school: X-Post

[ReadingMama1214]

I posted this in the afterschool board

Our school system is a choice system. In January you fill out a choice form that allows you to choose your top 5 school choices in the district. This includes charters and magnet schools

 

Dd is in a public half day preschool program. She does well there and generally loves school (especially math, art, and science). My husband and I both had classical educations and really loved it. We've been set on a classical charter for a few years now. It's the sister school DHs alma marter.

 

However. We have several Spanish immersion programs. They're true immersion and the students day in K is primarily in Spanish. They learn to read and write in Spanish before moving into English. The goal is to have them reading and writing on grade level in both languages by 3rd grade. I know a second language is a great choice and fantastic for them developmentally, but it would mean giving up the classical model.

 

The immersion schools tend to be less diverse than the other schools including the classical charter. They also tend to attract a more affluent crowd than other schools.

 

I'm not worried about Dd academically. She's half way through OPGTR and will be reading well by the time K starts. She is somewhat prone to anxiety and I'm not sure how she'd react to the teacher not speaking the same language.

 

Is immersion really all that it's cracked up to be? They are harder to get into for us, but she still stands a chance.

Edited October 6, 2016 by ReadingMama1214

[Ailaena]

 

Sometimes classical schools are very rigid in their course offerings. I have no idea what it's like for elementary, but at the schools we looked at (ages ago, yet still popular) there was no option for kids who were advanced in middle/high school. Everybody took the same classes.

 

Of course, here, immersion schools have their own issues, and you may run into the same problem, but with a curriculum you like less. And how are they at reaching that goal of bilingual by 3rd grade? What are the kids like in 9th grade? 12?

[Ailaena]

The immersion schools tend to be less diverse than the other schools including the classical charter. They also tend to attract a more affluent crowd than other schools.

 

 

 

This is exactly opposite of what happens in immersion school here. They are pretty dominantly Spanish-speaking families.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ailaena

[ReadingMama1214]

Sometimes classical schools are very rigid in their course offerings. I have no idea what it's like for elementary, but at the schools we looked at (ages ago, yet still popular) there was no option for kids who were advanced in middle/high school. Everybody took the same classes.

 

Of course, here, immersion schools have their own issues, and you may run into the same problem, but with a curriculum you like less. And how are they at reaching that goal of bilingual by 3rd grade? What are the kids like in 9th grade? 12?

The classical seems pretty varied in course offerings and a decent amount of electives for older kids. Also they seem to differentiate well for advanced kids. It's a pretty solid school from what I can tell.

 

The immersion starts at 90% Spanish 10%english I believe? I forget the name of the model. We have several Immersion schools in our district. I believe it's to be conversational by 3rd and reading on level in both languages. Most of the academic instruction is in the immersion language.

[ReadingMama1214]

This is exactly opposite of what happens in immersion school here. They are pretty dominantly Spanish-speaking families.

Our immersion schools seem to aim to teach English speaking kids Spanish or mandarin. A few offer French. But they do also have native Spanish speakers as well.

[Guest]

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Edited September 9, 2020 by Æthelthryth the Texan

[maize]

My six year old is in an immersion program and is thriving there; the parents I have talked to whose kids have done immersion through the end of elementary school have only good things to say.

[maize]

This is exactly opposite of what happens in immersion school here. They are pretty dominantly Spanish-speaking families.

Would this be a dual immersion program (some kids learning Spanish and some English)? The reviews of have heard of such programs generally do not rate them as highly as the type of program that is targeted primarily at teaching a second language to native English speakers.

[ReadingMama1214]

You might want to look on Google Scholar and see what research you can pull up on this. Our oldest's public school turned into an "immersion" campus, or what they called an ESL campus, when she was in elementary. We moved to get away from it. All of the research I found showed that the kids middled out so to speak. No one excelled (statistically) compared to more traditional programs. I didn't want her to get caught up in the experiment. We had enough pilot programs with spelling and grammar being skipped as it was.

 

Look at why they're offering the programs too. Often it's a funding grab rather than it's more beneficial for the students. I'm sure there are some schools like this that are amazing, but in general I didn't find any research that made that argument long term. It's been a trend on again and off again since at least the 70's if not before.

This is a charter school and is full immersion, not ESL. All academic instruction is taught in the second language (Spanish or mandarin) and specials (art, PE, music, etc.) are taught in English. The students are only allowed to speak in the target language. Starting in 3rd grade their instruction is in 80% Spanish 20% English. Before that it's 100%. Their test scores show that they are behind on English literacy skills at 3rd grade, but on or above average by 5th. The goal is fluency in the second language. The academic goal of K-3 is conversational fluency and relies heavily on family involvement.

[ReadingMama1214]

My six year old is in an immersion program and is thriving there; the parents I have talked to whose kids have done immersion through the end of elementary school have only good things to say.

This school goes through 8th grade. I believe that by then their instruction in Spanish and English is more evenly split, but they promote an environment that allows the second language to really cement in.

[maize]

This school goes through 8th grade. I believe that by then their instruction in Spanish and English is more evenly split, but they promote an environment that allows the second language to really cement in.

I'd go for it if current parents are happy with the program.

[ReadingMama1214]

I'd go for it if current parents are happy with the program.

A friends kids go there and I plan to have coffee with her soon to chat. I also scheduled a tour.

 

I imagine it's hard to get into. Immersions are highly sought after here and they only have 2 Kindergarten classes per language. So maybe 60 spots if that? We shall see. DDs school also has a brand new immersion program, but it's not full. I believe that they have a little more English instruction than a full program. I plan to talk to parents about it tomorrow.

[Guest]

This is a charter school and is full immersion, not ESL. All academic instruction is taught in the second language (Spanish or mandarin) and specials (art, PE, music, etc.) are taught in English. The students are only allowed to speak in the target language. Starting in 3rd grade their instruction is in 80% Spanish 20% English. Before that it's 100%. Their test scores show that they are behind on English literacy skills at 3rd grade, but on or above average by 5th. The goal is fluency in the second language. The academic goal of K-3 is conversational fluency and relies heavily on family involvement.

After reading Maize's description I realize it was dual immersion. Not ESL. I mis-described. Sorry.

[City Mouse]

This is a charter school and is full immersion, not ESL. All academic instruction is taught in the second language (Spanish or mandarin) and specials (art, PE, music, etc.) are taught in English. The students are only allowed to speak in the target language. Starting in 3rd grade their instruction is in 80% Spanish 20% English. Before that it's 100%. Their test scores show that they are behind on English literacy skills at 3rd grade, but on or above average by 5th. The goal is fluency in the second language. The academic goal of K-3 is conversational fluency and relies heavily on family involvement.

This goes along with what I have seen as a teacher from kids coming out of an immersion program.

I have had a couple of (English as primary language) students come to me from immersion programs. They are behind in academic language skills in English and struggle in the classroom, but because the family's primary language is English, they do not qualify for ELL support.

So my recommendation is that if you choose the immersion program, you commit to the entire program and don't change mid-stream.

[ReadingMama1214]

This goes along with what I have seen as a teacher from kids coming out of an immersion program.

I have had a couple of (English as primary language) students come to me from immersion programs. They are behind in academic language skills in English and struggle in the classroom, but because the family's primary language is English, they do not qualify for ELL support.

So my recommendation is that if you choose the immersion program, you commit to the entire program and don't change mid-stream.

 

Yes this would be a commitment through at least 5th grade, if not 8th. The school is pretty clear about the academic lag behind their English only peers in literacy. They make it clear that if you leave the program your child will most likely struggle academically for at least the 1st year and that they will appear behind their peers. 

 

DD is already reading on a mid 1st grade level and I plan to continue our phonics program until it is complete. We have about 120 lessons left in OPG and should finish by the summer, but it may take longer. I don't plan to stop that. I have a friend who's son goes to the school and she's taught him to read in English as well. It hasn't hindered his ability to do the full immersion program. She simply has him read daily to her in Spanish and English. I plan to do the same if DD attends. 

 

That being said, I wouldn't want to leave the program if we are happy with it. The goal would be bilingualism and this is the best way to achieve it if we really desire that for DD. It is also A LOT harder to enter the program in 1st grade and they will not admit new students past 2nd. So overall it seems to have an excellent student retention level. 

Edited October 6, 2016 by ReadingMama1214

[Bluegoat]

We have a fair number of immersion schools and programs here, as we have two official languages.  There is also a French scool board for kids who have French as a heritage language though in actuallity many start with no French.  I have mixed feelings about them, but they don't as far as I can see apply to all immersion programs everywhere.

 

But in my province these are my issues:

 

Immersion can start in K or in grade 7.  For kids in K or the French board in particular, there seems to be a tendency for parents to think of the program as a way to replicate a private school and avoid kids with problems.  Also, in the immersion programs, kids with any kind of learning disability tend to be weeded out rather than given resources to succeed.  This might be appropriate in some cases I am sure but I don't think they actually try and make it work when that would be a good option.

 

I also feel like the idea that the kids will come out with good French and English skills is rarely as straightforward as they suggest.  Often their written  English skills are not  as good, and a surprising number end up with not great French.  I've also known quite a few kids who came through the program and yet within a few years have lost most of their French.

 

A problem as kids get older is that it can be more difficult for them to get good French-speaking math and science teachers, and sometimes that aspect of school really suffers. 

 

I do think some of these things are mitigated by using the later start program.

 

I often find myself wondering though, why it is that immersion seems like the go-to answer for language ed in North America, especially in places with a reasonable size population that speaks the second language.  In particular, those kids rarely seem to manage a third language because so much time and energy is focused on the idea of immersion as they way to learn.  And yet people in other countries seem to manage to have quite a few students learn at least two languages to a reasonable level without immersion, as well as doing plenty of work in their first language.

 

It raises some questions to me around efficiency. 

[Bluegoat]

Oh, one other thing is that in the early years, immersion kids here have a lot of homework. 

[ReadingMama1214]

We have a fair number of immersion schools and programs here, as we have two official languages. There is also a French scool board for kids who have French as a heritage language though in actuallity many start with no French. I have mixed feelings about them, but they don't as far as I can see apply to all immersion programs everywhere.

 

But in my province these are my issues:

 

Immersion can start in K or in grade 7. For kids in K or the French board in particular, there seems to be a tendency for parents to think of the program as a way to replicate a private school and avoid kids with problems. Also, in the immersion programs, kids with any kind of learning disability tend to be weeded out rather than given resources to succeed. This might be appropriate in some cases I am sure but I don't think they actually try and make it work when that would be a good option.

 

I also feel like the idea that the kids will come out with good French and English skills is rarely as straightforward as they suggest. Often their written English skills are not as good, and a surprising number end up with not great French. I've also known quite a few kids who came through the program and yet within a few years have lost most of their French.

 

A problem as kids get older is that it can be more difficult for them to get good French-speaking math and science teachers, and sometimes that aspect of school really suffers.

 

I do think some of these things are mitigated by using the later start program.

 

I often find myself wondering though, why it is that immersion seems like the go-to answer for language ed in North America, especially in places with a reasonable size population that speaks the second language. In particular, those kids rarely seem to manage a third language because so much time and energy is focused on the idea of immersion as they way to learn. And yet people in other countries seem to manage to have quite a few students learn at least two languages to a reasonable level without immersion, as well as doing plenty of work in their first language.

 

It raises some questions to me around efficiency.

That's a great point. Many of our immersion schools won't let them start past 3rd grade. I haven't looked at high schools, but don't think we'd do an immersion highschool.

 

Those are great questions. I have a tour scheduled and will definitely write those down to ask. We aren't 100% settled. She may not get in and we'd end up pursuing classical ed.

[ReadingMama1214]

Oh, one other thing is that in the early years, immersion kids here have a lot of homework.

HW is definitely something I plan to ask about.

 

I plan to continue English instruction at home in literacy. Mainly because she's started reading and writing already.

[Arcadia]

A problem as kids get older is that it can be more difficult for them to get good French-speaking math and science teachers, and sometimes that aspect of school really suffers.

...

I often find myself wondering though, why it is that immersion seems like the go-to answer for language ed in North America, especially in places with a reasonable size population that speaks the second language. In particular, those kids rarely seem to manage a third language because so much time and energy is focused on the idea of immersion as they way to learn. And yet people in other countries seem to manage to have quite a few students learn at least two languages to a reasonable level without immersion, as well as doing plenty of work in their first language.

The private k-12 german immersion schools are okay teachers wise as we have a strong german expat community here with teachers who went through the German system. For example my kids Saturday german school head teacher could teach high school chemistry in English and German equally well. However most expats teach in private schools because there is no need for teacher credentials and private school families are self selecting anyway. The german private schools we tour does three languages for high school, English, German and French/Chinese.

 

The Chinese inmersion schools here are doing very well but there is lots of after schooling so the "very well" has more to do with parents than school.

 

The Spanish immersion schools here are a mixed bag for socioeconomic reasons. The AP Spanish exams scores are high even for kids who never did Spanish until high school. So the need is not there as having Spanish before 9th grade is not seen as a prereq for a good AP score.

[bettyandbob]

Looking back with an almost 22 yo and a 19 yo, I wish I'd done immersion when I had the chance.

[Bluegoat]

I think what happens here is that there are already something of a shortage of really qualified math, science, and French teachers.  THose are the three subjects anyone who teaches can find a job in.  (Teachers here have to have an undergraduate degree plus a teaching degree which is a two year program.)

 

And there are few people who learn French as a second language well enough to teach it, and also have a math or science degree.  Usually, they have a degree in French.  Many English speaking math and science undergrads don't even take a single language class at university.

 

So - the pool is really native French speakers, a minority in our province, who also happen to have undergrad degrees in math or science.  And those people have a choice of any job they want in the system.  They may or may not want to teach in an immersion program.

 

So - the pool is just really small.  A French teacher friend of mine, with an undergrad in classics and English, got asked to teach middle school math because she had done a class on math teaching strategies in her teaching degree.  But that was because she was interested in possibly teaching at elementary school and wanted to do a good job in an area that wasn't her main focus.  Her general math skills were good, but she really didn't think they were adequate for middle school math, especially in French as she had been educated in English.  But there just were not a lot of options for the school.

[ReadingMama1214]

The private k-12 german immersion schools are okay teachers wise as we have a strong german expat community here with teachers who went through the German system. For example my kids Saturday german school head teacher could teach high school chemistry in English and German equally well. However most expats teach in private schools because there is no need for teacher credentials and private school families are self selecting anyway. The german private schools we tour does three languages for high school, English, German and French/Chinese.

 

The Chinese inmersion schools here are doing very well but there is lots of after schooling so the "very well" has more to do with parents than school.

 

The Spanish immersion schools here are a mixed bag for socioeconomic reasons. The AP Spanish exams scores are high even for kids who never did Spanish until high school. So the need is not there as having Spanish before 9th grade is not seen as a prereq for a good AP score.

Here, in Denver, Spanish is spoken by a large amount of the population. It greatly improves your job prospects if you're fluent in Spanish. Our church is multilingual and sings in Spanish, Swahili, and English and offers a Spanish sermon alongside of the English one. She'd have a lot of opportunity for Spanish outside of school if we go that track.

[Arcadia]

Here, in Denver, Spanish is spoken by a large amount of the population. It greatly improves your job prospects if you're fluent in Spanish.

It is very location specific and local schools programs reflect that. Here the supply of spanish speaking people are much higher than demand.

 

We just went to BOA last week to pay bills. All the mortgage officers there are bilingual/multilingual in asian languages. My Citibank mortgage officer earns a great commission on top of a decent basic pay and is bilingual in Hebrew.

 

At your daughter's age, I would go for enjoyment vs worrying about jobs prospects.

What do you think she would like?

Also what are the support services available for subject/grade accelerated kids? That might be more crucial than whether it is an immersion program or classical program.

[bibiche]

A little OT, but it has been on my mind so I wanted to address it.

 

In response to this

The immersion schools tend to be less diverse than the other schools including the classical charter. They also tend to attract a more affluent crowd than other schools.

this was said:

This is exactly opposite of what happens in immersion school here. They are pretty dominantly Spanish-speaking families.

I may be misreading, but it seems to me that this second post posits Spanish-speaking families as being in opposition to affluent families, as if they are mutually exclusive. I have noticed that a lot of people immediately associate "Spanish-speaking" with poor and uneducated and I wanted to point out that this is often not the case. I can tell you it is definitely not the case where I live - Spanish speakers here are just as likely to have pictures of their relatives on the bills that you carry around when you visit another country. Heck, the richest man in the world up until 2013 was Carlos Slim, who is Mexican (and no, not drug money).

 

It's just that I have noticed that a lot of Spanish-speaking children are not as proud of their language and heritage as children who speak other languages, and I think it is because of the knee-jerk reaction people have of associating Spanish with uneducated or poor or criminal or illegal or all of the above.

 

And OP, I would choose the immersion school if I were you. :)

Edited October 6, 2016 by bibiche

[MistyMountain]

I had a similar choice and chose the school that was more classical like. It was a hard decision. I know parents who have done both options and some are happy with their choices and others pulled their kids. More parents pulled from the immersion program. My decision came with pros and cons and I second guess a lot but I think the immersion school would have been an even poorer choice. The classical school you are describing sounds good. I also found a good start before kindergarten in reading does not really mean that you do not have to worry about the method. The other stuff like writing and grammar instruction and spelling and what type of language arts stuff they do plus if they cover other subjects is important. You can do reading instruction at home and get a kid reading but with a full day of school you cannot fix everything.

Edited October 6, 2016 by MistyMountain

[Arcadia]

I have noticed that a lot of people immediately associate "Spanish-speaking" with poor and uneducated and I wanted to point out that this is often not the case. I can tell you it is definitely not the case where I live

The article linked below was in my local newspapers which may lead to certain misconceptions.

 

"Racial, gender wage gaps persist in U.S. despite some progress"

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/01/racial-gender-wage-gaps-persist-in-u-s-despite-some-progress/