Math for the 4th Grader who "hates" math?

[chellesnead]

I've been doing Bob Jones Math for my upcoming 4th grader for the last couple of school years.  She does fine during the chapter, but there is no review built in and she's completely forgotten what she's learned by the time it comes around again.  I'm looking at doing something more spiral for next year as she needs the review.  I was planning to use Horizons, but my son who is gifted in math has recently made the transition from BJU math 3 to Horizons 4 and has needed quite a bit of extra teaching as there are definite gaps between the programs.  I don't think my daughter will do well with that transition, and I don't want her to "hate" math more than she already does.  I like Saxon, but I think she'd really struggle with it.  She is ADHD and has a hard time transferring from a book to another piece of paper without making mistakes or leaving things out.  So, I don't think the format would work for her.  I'm considering CLE math, but not settled on it.  I'm wondering if she'd do well with Teaching Textbooks or online through CTC math.  Does anyone have any thoughts?  She really struggles in this area, and it's becoming a big struggle between the two of us.  I'd love to have her in a program that is a better fit for her and that helps her like math and not see me as the awful mom who makes her learn in. :)

 

Thanks!

[Rosie_0801]

Have you checked her for dyscalculia?

 

Even if you haven't, you might look at http://stern.buffalostate.edu/CSMPProgram/Primary%20Disk/PrimarySupplment.pdf and see how she likes it.

[sweetpea3829]

This kiddo is a perfect candidate for Prodigy Math (linked down in my Siggie).

 

So...I think MOST kids do better in math if there's some kind of spiral review built in. It's kind of how kids learn, really. They are introduced to the topic, learn it, practice it and then move on. But every time you go back and touch on that topic again, you are reinforcing that learning and making it easier to retrieve and use the information and skills necessary to work with that concept.

 

This is why, IMO, truly mastery programs are usually a flop for most kids. But truly spiral programs aren't the greatest either. When we tried Horizons, it was too many different concepts floating around and my DD (who has dyscalculia) couldn't learn anything because she needed time to sit and digest a given topic.

 

 

So here's what I do. For each kid, I keep a list of math concepts they've learned. I add new concepts to the bottom of the list as they learn them. Or, for concepts that build on previously learned material, such as geometry, I expand on that category. Every school day, my kids work on one of those concepts. I write them in their planners and just go right down the list. When I get to the bottom, I jump back to the top of the list and do it again.

 

 

Before I discovered Prodigy, I was giving them worksheets, games, online games, whatever to review those concepts. It took FOREVER. But with Prodigy, I go into my Teacher Dashboard, pull up the Assignments page and find assignments that cover review topics. I can give each kid separate assignments, start date, end date, how many. And then I can monitor and assess how they are doing.

 

Because Prodigy is an online game, my kids LOVE it. They beg to play. Even my math-phobic kid enjoys Prodigy and the allure of the game overcomes her feelings of "I hate math" when she encounters stuff that she struggles with. Instead of throwing in the towel, she has a strong incentive to keep trying.

 

 

AND...Prodigy is free. You can pay for a membership, which gives your kids in-game options that non-members don't have, but the free version is just as appealing. Be prepared, though, for your kids to beg you for memberships.

 

I held off on getting memberships, found a group buy ($15 for the year I think it was), and then used the membership as a further incentive to encourage them to meet certain goals.

 

So I can't really suggest any particular curriculum changes, but if you stay with what you're using, in order to avoid gaps due to transitioning, add in Prodigy for spiral review and that should help.

Edited June 22, 2016 by Sweetpea3829

[Jess4879]

Which version of BJU are you using?  And do you use the TG?  We are using the newer editions and the review is built in to the beginning of the lesson.  There are also review lessons on the CD in the TG and a separate review book you can get as well.  Just curious if you are using these resources and it still isn't enough?  If so, I'd maybe suggest Saxon (disclaimer: we've only ever used the K) because I believe the majority of each lesson is review followed by a bit of new teaching.  I *think* CLE is similar, but have never used it.   If you are just using the BJU workbook and not wanting to add the other elements, TT might be a good fit.  It would depend how well she does with computer teaching.  There is review, but I wouldn't say it is more than what BJU offers, so it might not be a good fit either. They have great samples online to try.  My oldest begged to do more and more of the sample lessons, it's what sold us on giving it a try.  It's been a great fit for her.  :)

[SilverMoon]

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Edited September 23, 2023 by SilverMoon

[chellesnead]

Take a look at Rod and Staff. You can see samples on milestonebooks.com. Rod and Staff is mastery rather than spiral. Each lesson focuses on one main concept at a time, and they stick with one main topic for a whole chapter. By the end of the chapter they know it really well. Each lesson ends with a little review section at the end of each lesson that spirals old concepts through. It's not flashy, cute, or colorful. It's straightforward, solid, traditional math. But it was a godsend for my math struggling ADHD kid.

 

If you go with R&S, I suggest you do use the scripted teaching plan in the TM and do a few problems with her to make she sure understands what she's doing before you set her loose on the lesson. This is considered optional, but it was a necessity for mine.

 

I did look at that a bit as it seems like a good program that has the components I'm looking for.  My concern is that she struggles with the transfer of the problems from the text to paper.  From what I can tell, this may be a problem for her if I used R&S.  How do you handle that with your ADHD child?  Where does he/she do the work?

 

Which version of BJU are you using?  And do you use the TG?  We are using the newer editions and the review is built in to the beginning of the lesson.  There are also review lessons on the CD in the TG and a separate review book you can get as well.  Just curious if you are using these resources and it still isn't enough?  If so, I'd maybe suggest Saxon (disclaimer: we've only ever used the K) because I believe the majority of each lesson is review followed by a bit of new teaching.  I *think* CLE is similar, but have never used it.   If you are just using the BJU workbook and not wanting to add the other elements, TT might be a good fit.  It would depend how well she does with computer teaching.  There is review, but I wouldn't say it is more than what BJU offers, so it might not be a good fit either. They have great samples online to try.  My oldest begged to do more and more of the sample lessons, it's what sold us on giving it a try.  It's been a great fit for her.  :)

 

She does the distance learning, but because she's ADHD and doesn't enjoy math, she's zoning out and I have to do a lot of reteaching.  We are using only the worktext that goes with it.

 

I don't think Saxon will work with her because of the transfer from book to paper.  That's a big struggle with her b/c of ADHD.  I think I like CLE because there is nothing for her to transfer and she can answer in the workbooks.  I've considered TT, but am after having so many disc problems with the BJU DL, I'm just not sure that I want to go with another disc based program.  

 

This kiddo is a perfect candidate for Prodigy Math (linked down in my Siggie).

 

I haven't even heard of this, but will definitely check it out!  Thank you.

 

Have you checked her for dyscalculia?

 I have not for her, but read about it for another of my children.  I am pretty sure that is not the problem.  

[maize]

I'll second the prodigy game recommendation!

[sweetpea3829]

Just to clarify...Prodigy is not an actual math curriculum (though it would be amazing if it were and I've totally put that bug in their ear).

 

It's more for review. Homework, if you will. But it covers most concepts from four different Curriculum Standards, from 1st-8th grade.

[SilverMoon]

I did look at that a bit as it seems like a good program that has the components I'm looking for.  My concern is that she struggles with the transfer of the problems from the text to paper.  From what I can tell, this may be a problem for her if I used R&S.  How do you handle that with your ADHD child?  Where does he/she do the work?

 

Assuming you're going to the 4 book, there's enough room in that student text to write out most of the answers directly in the textbook. 5 and up simply don't though. So you could start out writing everything in the textbook and spend the second half of the year working on transitioning to writing out work. Mine used looseleaf paper for putting answers on, he wrote out lots of multi-step problems, and we did a LOT of work on a whiteboard. Whiteboards have magic properties for some reason. Loose leaf paper can be folded and placed right under the row of problems, so they're not really doing more writing than a workbook would have, beyond labeling problem numbers and putting the lesson number at the top of the page anyway. (This also demonstrates what a tidy math page looks like before they start having to make their own without folding it under a row of problems.)

[gratitude]

I didn't read all of your answers, but I have a few things for you to think about based on your original post.

 

The Horizon scope and sequence is advanced and one year ahead of an older more traditional sequence. In my day it would have been a honors sequence. 7th grade is Pre-Algebra and 8th grade is Algebra 1.

 

By comparison BJU has a very traditional math sequence that would have been non-honors in my days in school. 7th grade is a review of elementary math, 8th grade is Pre-Algebra, and 9th grade is Algebra 1.

 

When you transferred your child that is strong in math did you use the Horizon placement test? A grade up would have been going from BJU 3 to Horizon 3. I did use Horizon K at one point and it was a first grade level book. It would have been very comparable to BJU 1, which I have also used. I am sure you have found many gaps in knowledge going to book 4.

 

BJU has a TM, Student workbook, and review book. In the TM are daily flash card drills. The review workbook reviews previous skills daily. Are you using all of those resources?

 

As for a child with ADHD who hates math. I would first say do some placement tests, forget grade levels in your mind, and find out where she is really at in math. Then let her work at her level no matter how far above or below her age it is. My experience as a teacher and now as a homeschool mom of 8 years is that children become very frustrated when they can't do the work being asked of them. So their response is to give up or hate the subject. Any child can learn math. It is a foundational building though that works up from that foundation. Sometimes the foundation doesn't stick under age 8 so they need to rebuild it around 9 or 10. I would get her to where she can truly succeed.

 

As for math programs (with 4 kids I have used too many out of my own love for math):

 

Bob Jones - highly teacher intensive. Uses both review (in the review book) and conceptual learning. More problems in the problem sets.

 

Math U See - very short lessons, which may in fact benefit your dd. They have placement tests.

Pre- Algebra in 7th. Review built in on the systematic pages.

 

Horizon - one year ahead of programs like BJU.

 

Singapore - strong in conceptual math. Basic arthimatic practice must be added.

 

Saxon- I like it starting in 7/6. Lots of practice. My son who likes doing math problems loves it.

 

Rod & Staff - drills basic arthimatic 1st - 3rd. Then starts upper elementary math in 4th. Slow and steady. I had one child learn their math facts from their grade 3 book and another learn nothing. It depends on the child and how they do with repetitive. I wouldn't think ADHD would do well with it, but I don't know.

 

I think MUS at her level might really help her. Make sure she really places into the level you start with since he expects mastery and 20 math facts in one minute to move beyond Alpha.

 

I hope something I wrote helps.

[OneStepAtATime]

CLE is excellent for spiral review but definitely give the placement test.  It has a bit different scope and sequence.  If she doesn't pass to get into grade 4 but comes close you can do 401 with her, going very slowly, to review what she didn't have down.  401 is entirely review of the previous level, nothing new introduced.   I highly recommend CLE for a child that struggles with math and needs spiral review, but don't rush forward.  Place them correctly.

 

Is she needing help with math facts?  CLE does math fact practice separate from the actual lesson, so it works beautifully for students that struggle with math facts.  They have a great way of organizing the math fact review.  Also, they have a great laminated reference sheet that I strongly encourage you to get as well.  Very helpful.  Get the TM.  Makes it much easier to grade and it gives suggestions, extra tests/quizzes, targeted extra practice pages, and makes looking up previous lessons much easier.

 

I also agree that Prodigy math might be a good supplement for CLE.  We use CTC math here since it covers all levels of math through Calculus and you can watch explanation videos and do lessons as often as a student needs/wants to solidify a concept, even moving up and down grade levels to master something.  Pairs very well with CLE and the child can do it independently for additional help when the parent is busy.  All results are tracked and the program remembers where the student stopped, even if they stopped mid lesson.

[deerforest]

Personally, I would spend time making math fun. My daughter is slightly accelerated in math, and if I had been using a single curriculum with her all along, she would undoubtedly would have checked out and be behind.

 

Not all curricula works for all kids. Some kids thrive on integrating living math activities such as books, games (board games, not video ones; my daughter hated Prodigy, for example), manipulatives, videos, etc. I'd start with this site: http://livingmath.net and there is also a great thread on WTM somewhere about living math ideas. Watch the videos at educationunboxed.com, for example.

 

I'd help her realize that math isn't just about worksheets, memorizing, and procedural learning. Show her the beauty of math. Help her not think she hates it.

 

Edited June 22, 2016 by deerforest

[Tiramisu]

Are you sure you are dealing with only ADHD and not dysgraphia?

[OneStepAtATime]

Agree with above questions, by the way. Could she have dysgraphia or even a developmental vision issue (frequently does not show up in a standard vision screening)? You might also look into dyscalculia.

[chellesnead]

Are you sure you are dealing with only ADHD and not dysgraphia?

 

 

Agree with above questions, by the way. Could she have dysgraphia or even a developmental vision issue (frequently does not show up in a standard vision screening)? You might also look into dyscalculia.

 

Yes, feel very confident that for this child she does not have dysgraphia or dyscalculia.  I have another that does.  Math just does not come easily for her.  It requires a lot of mental effort, she zones out, then gets frustrated.  She is gifted in the Language Arts.  She does really well through the chapters and on the chapter tests, but after she moves on, it's soon forgotten.  I really think it's a matter of using a program that is not a good fit for her.

[chellesnead]

CLE is excellent for spiral review but definitely give the placement test.  It has a bit different scope and sequence.  If she doesn't pass to get into grade 4 but comes close you can do 401 with her, going very slowly, to review what she didn't have down.  401 is entirely review of the previous level, nothing new introduced.   I highly recommend CLE for a child that struggles with math and needs spiral review, but don't rush forward.  Place them correctly.

 

Is she needing help with math facts?  CLE does math fact practice separate from the actual lesson, so it works beautifully for students that struggle with math facts.  They have a great way of organizing the math fact review.  Also, they have a great laminated reference sheet that I strongly encourage you to get as well.  Very helpful.  Get the TM.  Makes it much easier to grade and it gives suggestions, extra tests/quizzes, targeted extra practice pages, and makes looking up previous lessons much easier.

 

I also agree that Prodigy math might be a good supplement for CLE.  We use CTC math here since it covers all levels of math through Calculus and you can watch explanation videos and do lessons as often as a student needs/wants to solidify a concept, even moving up and down grade levels to master something.  Pairs very well with CLE and the child can do it independently for additional help when the parent is busy.  All results are tracked and the program remembers where the student stopped, even if they stopped mid lesson.

 

I am strongly learning towards CLE at this point. I like how the fact practice, flash cards, etc. are all built into the lesson.  Also, I'm thinking about getting CTC for extra practice.  I just got an email that they are offering an additional 6 months free with the subscription, making it very affordable if I decide to use it with all 4 of my kids.

[chellesnead]

I hope something I wrote helps.

 

Thank you for all you wrote!  I may go take a look at Horizons again and see if I need to just start her in an earlier book.  I think it would be between that and CLE.  

[J-rap]

A couple of my kids who were like that really liked Singapore math.  It was just different enough (compared to traditional textbooks) that it caught their interest.  We used the non-US edition, so that they could learn the metric system, and they liked that as well.

 

[TKDmom]

Not that you need another program to look at but ... I used MEP 4 with my dd when she was that age (actually I think it was 6th grade for her). She has an intense dislike of math, although she's also gifted in language and understands the concepts easily. She makes so many careless errors and copies things wrong all the time. And she's never managed to memorize any math facts. Drives me bonkers. I've tried so many programs with her before finding any that work. Traditional math programs never worked for her.

 

Anyway MEP had built in review at the beginning of each lesson (it was in the TM, not the workbook). I specifically remember factoring a few numbers every day for a semester. Also, the problems are challenging, but the problem sets are short. It helped my dd focus when she only had 5 problems. Multi-step, challenging problems, but still only 5. After MEP 4, we were able to skip to MEP 7, then jumped to another pre-A class.

 

In hindsight, I wish we had moved straight to Jousting Armadillos after MEP. It's been a great fit for her quirky, language oriented, personality. The problem sets are longer, but they are meant to be spread out over a few days, so we don't get distractions and melt-downs over 30 problems in a row. I know you're not at pre-algebra yet, but it may be something to look at as she gets older.

Edited June 23, 2016 by TKDmom

[joyfulmomSDG]

Yes, feel very confident that for this child she does not have dysgraphia or dyscalculia.  I have another that does.  Math just does not come easily for her.  It requires a lot of mental effort, she zones out, then gets frustrated.  She is gifted in the Language Arts.  She does really well through the chapters and on the chapter tests, but after she moves on, it's soon forgotten.  I really think it's a matter of using a program that is not a good fit for her.

 

I am in exactly the same boat with my rising 5th grader (who is also gifted in Lang. Arts).  We are transitioning her from Horizons to TT next year.  I am a huge Horizons fan & her older brother has done really well with it, but her...not so much.  Older brother is more of a natural with math & required very little instruction. She, on the other hand, needs more step-by-step instruction and practice/repetition.  

 

You may try the TT samples online to see if it would be a good fit?  My daughter really loved the samples and the fact that she could review topics easily if she wasn't 100% the first go-round. We will be using TT 5 as I think it will review some of the topics she was a little less confident on this year.  Fwiw - she will most likely be my only TT kid.  

 

My oldest (now graduated) was the same way - gifted in LA and struggled with math.  We had a really rough time all throughout high school.  Tried a zillion different programs & still never found a good fit for her.  

[MeganW]

There is hope!  My 4th grader told me not long ago that "you can make me good at math, but you can't make me like it!".  Whatever!  You are getting good at it, and that's half the battle!  

We switched to Singapore last year, and it was a hit for my non-mathy kid, believe it or not.  We do the Intensive Practice a month or two behind where we are in the textbook so nothing gets lost.