Can't Decide What To Do About Math-- WWYD? -- minor update

[OnMyOwn]

I keep going around in circles about math for my dd. She is just finishing up Saxon algebra 2. She did well with it and she enjoys it. The only downside is that it is time-consuming and I guess I worry about whether she is getting the big picture since I am not really a math person. Also, she is going into 9th grade and I'm a bit worried she's going to forget everything she needs to know for the PSAT by the time she gets to 11th. So, these are the options I am considering.

 

1. Continue on to Saxon Advanced Math. Maybe lightly go through Lial's Intermediate algebra this summer so that I can make sure she's getting the big picture. (I own Lial's and have used it with my ds.). The benefit if this is that my dd likes Saxon and I already own the books.

 

2. Take a break from Saxon and try Aops Geometry this year. Dd loves doing proofs and has strong visual-spatial skills. But, will I be able to grade the proofs at home? She won't have time for a class because she's already taking a bunch of online classes.

 

3. Have dd wrap up the rest of geometry with TT, which I already own, and begin either Derek Owen's precalculus or Wilson Hill's precalculus in the fall. My dd does not want to do this because she likes Saxon. The appeal of this for me is that math will take significantly less time than it will with the Saxon Advanced Math book and she would no longer be using a program that gets so many negative reviews, which would alleviate some worry for me over math.

 

If my dd continues on the track she is on, I believe she could take classes beyond calculus at the local university vs the cc beginning in 11th grade. I think she would like that. But, she doesn't have to do that and maybe it would be better to stretch things out a bit. She likes math, but she also likes, Latin, Spanish, Writing, speech, etc., etc.

 

So, any thoughts on these options? I am open to other ideas as well.

Edited July 7, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[EKS]

Instead of using Lial's Intermediate Algebra (which is weak), I would run through Derek Owens Algebra II if you're concerned about the big picture.  Then if she likes DO, she could continue with his precalculus course.  

[Brad S]

I agree with the first reply and would not go with Lial, which I also consider weak; I'd go with Saxon before Lial, esp. since your DC likes it.  As for geometry, if your DC hasn't gone through a proofs-based geometry, I would do that, but perhaps through supplement rather than AoPS.  I'd listen to others here, but it might be better to use AoPS Intermediate Algebra instead of Geometry.  If you do go through a complete geometry course, I'd go slowly through the geometry to allow review or slow progression in algebra so as not to forget the algebra.  I think your concern is justified.  DO or some other course is another option, but I can't say which would be best for your DC.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Brad S

[amsunshine]

My younger dd is finishing up Saxon Algebra 2 this year.  This is our plan:  This summer, she will do ALEKS Geometry.  Then, she will move on to Saxon Advanced Mathematics in the fall.  During the year, she will do ALEKS Integrated Maths II as review and reinforcement in her free time.  She may not finish Advanced Maths by the end of the year, and that's ok.  Next summer, she will do ALEKS Algebra 2 with Trigonometry.

 

I do really like these two Saxon texts -- they are dry but they definitely get the job done.  My dds both seem to really grasp all of the concepts, as they always do well and feel confident with the concepts they review on ALEKS (I use it as my backup to make sure there are no gaps in their learning).  So far, so good.

Edited June 15, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[Legomom]

Our experience was somewhat similar to yours with Saxon, although my son just did Algebra 1 (we had done Singapore math prior to that).  Saxon was very time consuming and while my son received an "A" (it was an outside class), I sensed that he wasn't seeing the big picture.  This was particularly disappointing because prior to this he had been quite intuitive about math and problem solving, but the step-by-step approach almost seemed to diminish his ability to approach the problems while seeing the big picture.  I saw this happen with specific problems that in the past he would have been able to visualize quickly and then he started bogging down in the method approach.  I was hopeful that his standardized test scores would reflect his "A" in math, but they didn't.

 

He liked using Saxon, but because it was time consuming and he didn't seem to make the kind of progress that I thought was necessary, we went with Jacobs for Geometry. I hoped that changing the type of textbook (which included algebra review) would help.  He really disliked it and he ended up dropping Geometry and after much discussion, he is going to go back to Saxon (Algebra 2) and then take Advanced Math to complete his geometry credit.  At this point I am hoping that things will click as he moves forward. Part of the reason that he wants to stay with Saxon is because it is offered by the same online provider that he had for Algebra one.

 

All this to say, I can relate to your experience with Saxon and I wish you better luck than I had with changing programs.  Looking back, I am not sure what I would have done differently -- I think that his ideal is a live online teacher, so I should have found one with a different text for Algebra 1.

[Julie of KY]

If she likes Saxon, then I'd be inclined to stick with it. Lots of people do fine with Saxon.

 

Is there a reason you want to do AoPS Geometry? I think she's probably covered geometry already through Saxon (am I wrong?). If you want to go further in geometry, you certainly could do AoPS. If you are not a math person, then you would have trouble grading it as her answers will not look like the solution book. I'd feel fine letting a self-motivated student do AoPS on their own as it is written to the student and then self-grade. The AoPS geometry book is a long hard book.

 

I would not recommend jumping into AoPS intermediate algebra.

 

Edited to add that she'll get lots of algebra review in a precalc course.

 

As far as math for the future, you might also look at statistics.

Edited June 15, 2016 by Julie of KY

[OnMyOwn]

Instead of using Lial's Intermediate Algebra (which is weak), I would run through Derek Owens Algebra II if you're concerned about the big picture. Then if she likes DO, she could continue with his precalculus course.

That's a good thought and aomething I will add to my list of options.

[OnMyOwn]

My younger dd is finishing up Saxon Algebra 2 this year. This is our plan: This summer, she will do ALEKS Geometry. Then, she will move on to Saxon Advanced Mathematics in the fall. During the year, she will do ALEKS Integrated Maths II as review and reinforcement in her free time. She may not finish Advanced Maths by the end of the year, and that's ok. Next summer, she will do ALEKS Algebra 2 with Trigonometry.

 

I do really like these two Saxon texts -- they are dry but they definitely get the job done. My dds both seem to really grasp all of the concepts, as they always do well and feel confident with the concepts they review on ALEKS (I use it as my backup to make sure there are no gaps in their learning). So far, so good.

So, amsunshine, what is ALEKS Integrated Maths II? I have used ALEKS for my son in the past and I could see using it over the summer to make sure my dd is solid on what she's learned with Saxon or to freshen up her algebra skills before the PSAT if she continues on to Advanced Math.

[OnMyOwn]

Our experience was somewhat similar to yours with Saxon, although my son just did Algebra 1 (we had done Singapore math prior to that). Saxon was very time consuming and while my son received an "A" (it was an outside class), I sensed that he wasn't seeing the big picture. This was particularly disappointing because prior to this he had been quite intuitive about math and problem solving, but the step-by-step approach almost seemed to diminish his ability to approach the problems while seeing the big picture. I saw this happen with specific problems that in the past he would have been able to visualize quickly and then he started bogging down in the method approach. I was hopeful that his standardized test scores would reflect his "A" in math, but they didn't.

 

He liked using Saxon, but because it was time consuming and he didn't seem to make the kind of progress that I thought was necessary, we went with Jacobs for Geometry. I hoped that changing the type of textbook (which included algebra review) would help. He really disliked it and he ended up dropping Geometry and after much discussion, he is going to go back to Saxon (Algebra 2) and then take Advanced Math to complete his geometry credit. At this point I am hoping that things will click as he moves forward. Part of the reason that he wants to stay with Saxon is because it is offered by the same online provider that he had for Algebra one.

 

All this to say, I can relate to your experience with Saxon and I wish you better luck than I had with changing programs. Looking back, I am not sure what I would have done differently -- I think that his ideal is a live online teacher, so I should have found one with a different text for Algebra 1.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Legomom.

[amsunshine]

So, amsunshine, what is ALEKS Integrated Maths II? I have used ALEKS for my son in the past and I could see using it over the summer to make sure my dd is solid on what she's learned with Saxon or to freshen up her algebra skills before the PSAT if she continues on to Advanced Math.

 

Integrated Maths II has the heaviest concentration of geometry topics of the three integrated courses that ALEKS offers.  It also has some advanced algebra, as well as probability and statistics topics.  My older dd completed it this year while working on Saxon Advanced Maths.  In January, she took a placement test for the charter high school she will attend this fall, and she placed into PreCalculus Honors (this was about halfway through Advanced Maths).  I felt the Integrated Maths II was a nice review for her to do along with Saxon.  For this summer, I'm choosing to have her do Algebra II with Trigonometry because she is nearly finished with Advanced Maths and I feel it reflects what she has done this year better than the Integrated Maths III from ALEKS.

 

HTH.

 

eta:  actually, the ALEKS PreCalculus probably covers what Advanced Maths does, but I will have her do that for review over the coming year.

Edited June 15, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[OnMyOwn]

If she likes Saxon, then I'd be inclined to stick with it. Lots of people do fine with Saxon.

 

Is there a reason you want to do AoPS Geometry? I think she's probably covered geometry already through Saxon (am I wrong?). If you want to go further in geometry, you certainly could do AoPS. If you are not a math person, then you would have trouble grading it as her answers will not look like the solution book. I'd feel fine letting a self-motivated student do AoPS on their own as it is written to the student and then self-grade. The AoPS geometry book is a long hard book.

 

I would not recommend jumping into AoPS intermediate algebra.

 

Edited to add that she'll get lots of algebra review in a precalc course.

 

As far as math for the future, you might also look at statistics.

Well, it's nice to hear something positive about Saxon. It seems like most of what I read is so negative, it has me second-guessing myself.

 

The only reason I was considering Aops geometry was to go deeper and stretch things out. I had also read about how the aops courses are great for strengthening problem solving skills. I thought if there was an aops book my dd would enjoy, it would be geometry. She has covered a good chunk of geometry so far in Saxon, but still has some to cover in the advanced math book.

 

I did not realize she would be getting algebra review in the precalculus book. That is a plus. It wasn't long ago that someone posted that much of the advanced math looked unfamiliar and that it didn't look like there was much algebra review, so that caught my attention. But I didn't get the impression that the person who posted that was particularly mathy, either. I will take a look at the book again tomorrow.

 

I definitely have statistics planned for her. Thanks!

Edited June 15, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[OnMyOwn]

Integrated Maths II has the heaviest concentration of geometry topics of the three integrated courses that ALEKS offers. It also has some advanced algebra, as well as probability and statistics topics. My older dd completed it this year while working on Saxon Advanced Maths. In January, she took a placement test for the charter high school she will attend this fall, and she placed into PreCalculus Honors (this was about halfway through Advanced Maths). I felt the Integrated Maths II was a nice review for her to do along with Saxon. For this summer, I'm choosing to have her do Algebra II with Trigonometry because she is nearly finished with Advanced Maths and I feel it reflects what she has done this year better than the Integrated Maths III from ALEKS.

 

HTH.

 

eta: actually, the ALEKS PreCalculus probably covers what Advanced Maths does, but I will have her do that for review over the coming year.

Thanks for the insight! I will take a look at ALEKS again. Since your dd did the advanced math book this year, can you say whether it took more time than the Algebra 2 book? I have heard some people saying it takes 3 hours a day. Right now, my dd is spending about 1 1/2 - 2 hours a day on Saxon, depending on the lesson.

[amsunshine]

Thanks for the insight! I will take a look at ALEKS again. Since your dd did the advanced math book this year, can you say whether it took more time than the Algebra 2 book? I have heard some people saying it takes 3 hours a day. Right now, my dd is spending about 1 1/2 - 2 hours a day on Saxon, depending on the lesson.

Yes, the advanced maths does take longer than algebra 2. However, what Art Reed recommends for most students is to do the odd problems on one day and the even problems the next. The book is meant to be finished in 1 1/2 to 2 years. The first half would be called "geometry with advanced algebra" while the 2nd half would be called "precalculus with trigonometry".

 

The other option, which I don't recommend unless you have a very capable math student, is to use the schedule from My Fathers World, which has the student only do selected problems from each lesson. This is what my Dd did, but only because I knew it was appropriate for her.

[OnMyOwn]

Yes, the advanced maths does take longer than algebra 2. However, what Art Reed recommends for most students is to do the odd problems on one day and the even problems the next. The book is meant to be finished in 1 1/2 to 2 years. The first half would be called "geometry with advanced algebra" while the 2nd half would be called "precalculus with trigonometry".

 

The other option, which I don't recommend unless you have a very capable math student, is to use the schedule from My Fathers World, which has the student only do selected problems from each lesson. This is what my Dd did, but only because I knew it was appropriate for her.

Thanks. I do have the MFW schedule for all the upper levels of Saxon, but I've always been afraid to use it because I've heard too many people say they ran into trouble when skipping problems. I've actually done lots of searching on the web, trying to track down people who have used it and you are only the second person I've come across who has.

 

Lots to think about.

[LisaKinVA]

Some things you can do:

 

Continue with Saxon Advanced Math, but lightly -- maybe 2 days a week.  If the Saxon lessons are really long, have her just work 1 hour and get done what she can, before setting it aside

Do work in AoPS, but maybe Number Theory/Counting and Probability books instead.  

Sign up at Khan Academy and work in some SAT practice about 15 minutes a day 2-3x a week.

 

Working this way, here is what you accomplish:

 

1) Consistent review of skills learned for testing purposes.

2) Continue forward in math, but not completing Advanced Mathematics until her sophomore year -- thus giving her some time to grow, making the subject less time intensive.

3) Learn some different aspects of math, which aren't often covered in most math texts.  Still completing 1 math credit her freshman year.

 

This is similar to what we did with my daughter (except for the Khan Academy practice, and different text books) in 8th grade.  We've added the Khan Academy practice in for 9th grade. 

[Julie of KY]

Well, it's nice to hear something positive about Saxon. It seems like most of what I read is so negative, it has me second-guessing myself.

 

The only reason I was considering Aops geometry was to go deeper and stretch things out. I had also read about how the aops courses are great for strengthening problem solving skills. I thought if there was an aops book my dd would enjoy, it would be geometry. She has covered a good chunk of geometry so far in Saxon, but still has some to cover in the advanced math book.

 

I did not realize she would be getting algebra review in the precalculus book. That is a plus. It wasn't long ago that someone posted that much of the advanced math looked unfamiliar and that it didn't look like there was much algebra review, so that caught my attention. But I didn't get the impression that the person who posted that was particularly mathy, either. I will take a look at the book again tomorrow.

 

I definitely have statistics planned for her. Thanks!

 

AoPS Geometry is certainly a way to go deeper and stretch things out. AoPS is also a great way to strengthen problem solving skills.

 

Algebra isn't formally reviewed in precalculus, but it is a building block and you can't do precalc without knowing algebra. Certain skills are used a lot in precalc and others are not reviewed at all.

 

If you want to stretch things out, but do something different then you might look at AoPS counting and probability.

 

If you want to review and go deeper in algebra, you might look at AoPS Intro to Algebra. You could just look at the end of chapter reviews if you know the topics well and work through the chapters that you can't do the end of chapter reviews. I'd bet many students who have finished algebra 2 would still find much of the AoPS Intro book difficult.

 

If I had to pick, I'd say algebra is more "important" to know well than geometry. However, if it fine to pick whatever interests you to study further.

[Mama Geek]

Just another option to through out there, but have you considered a linear algebra course?  I might do that as an option to statistics.  

[amsunshine]

At least in our local cc system, students may not take linear algebra until they have completed calc 1-3.  Something to check.

 

eta:  pardon me, our local cc's require only calc 1 and 2 prior to taking linear algebra.

Edited June 15, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[Mama Geek]

I have taken calc 1-3 and diff eq.  I have not taken linear alg per say but have worked with it and learned it.  You don't need calc for linear algebra all you need is algebra and maybe geometry it really isn't any harder than statistics and would probably help some with calculus.

[amsunshine]

I'm not saying you need calc for linear algebra -- just that the cc may have it as a prerequisite, so one should check.

Edited June 15, 2016 by amsunshinetemp

[OnMyOwn]

Some things you can do:

 

Continue with Saxon Advanced Math, but lightly -- maybe 2 days a week. If the Saxon lessons are really long, have her just work 1 hour and get done what she can, before setting it aside

Do work in AoPS, but maybe Number Theory/Counting and Probability books instead.

Sign up at Khan Academy and work in some SAT practice about 15 minutes a day 2-3x a week.

 

Working this way, here is what you accomplish:

 

1) Consistent review of skills learned for testing purposes.

2) Continue forward in math, but not completing Advanced Mathematics until her sophomore year -- thus giving her some time to grow, making the subject less time intensive.

3) Learn some different aspects of math, which aren't often covered in most math texts. Still completing 1 math credit her freshman year.

 

This is similar to what we did with my daughter (except for the Khan Academy practice, and different text books) in 8th grade. We've added the Khan Academy practice in for 9th grade.

I do like the idea of using something like Khan Academy to keep her skills fresh and I had completely forgotten about the aops counting and probability books. I had originally planned on using those. Hmmm.

[Mosaicmind]

I agree that Saxon is time consuming but if she's learning then why change that? I see too many homeschool moms who switch programs because they doubt themselves or want the best one out there. Switching causes confusion and in some cases a student ends up regressing instead of moving forward. Art Reed explained it best, "I hear parents complain how much work Saxon math is and how it takes so long to complete, yet parents don't have a problem with their children spending hours training in a sport, practicing their instrument, and doing hours of other things that aren't school subjects." I agree. I would rather my students spend an hour to hour and a half on math and understand what they are doing so that it helps them in scoring well on SAT/ACT.

 

Also, she needs to do Saxon Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and the first half of Advanced math to have completed a whole credit of geometry. It's also been said, and I learned this with some of my kids, that if a student takes a year and does geometry or other math then it's quite possible that they will lose some of what they learned in Algebra 1 and Algebra 2; this is why Mr. Reed is in favor of the older editions of Saxon that integrate geometry instead of the new fourth editions that removed the geometry in favor of a single geometry course. Here is where you can read Art Reed's opinion of how to do Saxon:

 

http://usingsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2015.php#0915

 

Can you not have her go on into the next book and do some short refresher lessons here and there? I'm really just thinking out loud. Since she's so young and not even high school age I'm not sure what your plan was to move forward in math, do cc classes?

[OnMyOwn]

I agree that Saxon is time consuming but if she's learning then why change that? I see too many homeschool moms who switch programs because they doubt themselves or want the best one out there. Switching causes confusion and in some cases a student ends up regressing instead of moving forward. Art Reed explained it best, "I hear parents complain how much work Saxon math is and how it takes so long to complete, yet parents don't have a problem with their children spending hours training in a sport, practicing their instrument, and doing hours of other things that aren't school subjects." I agree. I would rather my students spend an hour to hour and a half on math and understand what they are doing so that it helps them in scoring well on SAT/ACT.

 

Also, she needs to do Saxon Algebra 1, Algebra 2, and the first half of Advanced math to have completed a whole credit of geometry. It's also been said, and I learned this with some of my kids, that if a student takes a year and does geometry or other math then it's quite possible that they will lose some of what they learned in Algebra 1 and Algebra 2; this is why Mr. Reed is in favor of the older editions of Saxon that integrate geometry instead of the new fourth editions that removed the geometry in favor of a single geometry course. Here is where you can read Art Reed's opinion of how to do Saxon:

 

http://usingsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2015.php#0915

 

Can you not have her go on into the next book and do some short refresher lessons here and there? I'm really just thinking out loud. Since she's so young and not even high school age I'm not sure what your plan was to move forward in math, do cc classes?

Yes, I may have her continue with Saxon. I think the thing I'm struggling with most is that it seems very inefficient to me. My dd is going to have a heavy schedule next year and from what I am hearing, it sounds as though the advanced math book may take 3 hours a day. That means we'd have to spread it over two years. If she was going to wind up with a superior understanding from Saxon, I wouldn't mind that. But, I am not feeling 100% confident that she will. Yes, Saxon is working for her, but I'd guess that a lot of programs would work for her. She picks up math pretty easily. She could finish what she needs to for geometry this summer with TT and take Wilson Hill's precalculus in the fall and only spend an hour or so a day on math and be done in one year. And maybe have a better conceptual understanding? That's where I feel unsure. But even if she wasn't solid with precalculus after Wilson Hill, she could probably work through Aleks or something for a few months and be in great shape having spent a fraction of the time she would have on Saxon. I'm wondering if she wouldn't actually do better spending less time doing lots of problems and more time getting solid instruction with a good teacher. On the other hand, I put my son in an online class years ago and was blown away by how much time was spent lecturing on very basic, simple concepts and how little time was spent on actually doing math. I think the Wilson Hill class would be better than that, though.

 

Anyway, thanks for sharing your thoughts with me. You've got me thinking it through some more. It's nice just to have people to talk it over with.

Edited June 20, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[GoodGrief]

I fall into the camp of sticking with a math program if it is going well (or well "enough" :-) ) in high school. it can be tough to recover from a new curricular choice that does not prove to be a good fit.

[Junie]

The Advanced Math book is supposed to take 2 years.

 

Ds15 will be finishing the Saxon Algebra 2 book soon and moving into the Advanced Math book.  We start with Saxon at the 5/4 level and use it the whole way through high school. 

[OnMyOwn]

The Advanced Math book is supposed to take 2 years.

 

Ds15 will be finishing the Saxon Algebra 2 book soon and moving into the Advanced Math book.  We start with Saxon at the 5/4 level and use it the whole way through high school. 

 

Thanks, Junie.  I have read that it could be done over two years, but I have never heard that it was supposed to take two years.  That's interesting.

 

** the rest of this is just my thoughts in general -- not directed at you, Junie **

 

While I don't necessarily have a problem with my dd spending two years on precalculus, I'm not sure it makes the most sense for her to spend it this way.  I still haven't decided what we're going to do, and I need to talk this over with my dd some more, but if she's going to spend two years on precalculus, I think, for her, it would make more sense to use a strong conceptual program the first year and then maybe do Saxon advanced math, evens or odds only, the second year (if she needed that).  I could see that being a very strong combination.  As I am typing this out, it's becoming clear to me that this is the issue I have with Saxon Advanced Math -- It shouldn't take 3 hours a day or two years.  If we're going to invest two years into a subject that every other publisher does in one, I want my dd to come out with a superior understanding of the subject and I'm just not sure my dd is going to get that with Saxon.  She does do very well with it, but she has very strong pattern recognition and memory skills, so I think that is why she is doing well.  The thing is, she also picks up difficult concepts very quickly and easily, so I am starting to think that it would make more sense to start out with a program that focuses more on conceptual understanding.  Then, if she were to need more practice to solidify her skills, Saxon or Aleks would fit the bill.

 

Interestingly, I've done algebra I twice with my son because even though he did very well with it the first time, I knew that going through the material with him again would really solidify things for him and it did.  We did that while doing geometry.  He's done great with algebra II as well, but, for a number of reasons, he's going to go through algebra 2 again this year with a more challenging program.  He'll still be able to get through precalculus before college and he has a very strong conceptual understanding of what he's doing. 

[swimmermom3]

Instead of using Lial's Intermediate Algebra (which is weak), I would run through Derek Owens Algebra II if you're concerned about the big picture.  Then if she likes DO, she could continue with his precalculus course.  

 

We are huge Derek Owens fans. One of my biggest high school regrets is not utilizing Derek all the way through.

 

[Junie]

Thanks, Junie.  I have read that it could be done over two years, but I have never heard that it was supposed to take two years.  That's interesting.

 

** the rest of this is just my thoughts in general -- not directed at you, Junie **

 

While I don't necessarily have a problem with my dd spending two years on precalculus, I'm not sure it makes the most sense for her to spend it this way.  I still haven't decided what we're going to do, and I need to talk this over with my dd some more, but if she's going to spend two years on precalculus, I think, for her, it would make more sense to use a strong conceptual program the first year and then maybe do Saxon advanced math, evens or odds only, the second year (if she needed that).  I could see that being a very strong combination.  As I am typing this out, it's becoming clear to me that this is the issue I have with Saxon Advanced Math -- It shouldn't take 3 hours a day or two years.  If we're going to invest two years into a subject that every other publisher does in one, I want my dd to come out with a superior understanding of the subject and I'm just not sure my dd is going to get that with Saxon.  She does do very well with it, but she has very strong pattern recognition and memory skills, so I think that is why she is doing well.  The thing is, she also picks up difficult concepts very quickly and easily, so I am starting to think that it would make more sense to start out with a program that focuses more on conceptual understanding.  Then, if she were to need more practice to solidify her skills, Saxon or Aleks would fit the bill.

 

Interestingly, I've done algebra I twice with my son because even though he did very well with it the first time, I knew that going through the material with him again would really solidify things for him and it did.  We did that while doing geometry.  He's done great with algebra II as well, but, for a number of reasons, he's going to go through algebra 2 again this year with a more challenging program.  He'll still be able to get through precalculus before college and he has a very strong conceptual understanding of what he's doing. 

 

The way I understand it is this:

 

Year 1 -- Algebra 1

Year 2 -- Algebra  2

Year 3 -- Advanced Math (1st half)

Year 4 -- Advanced Math (2nd half)

 

From what I understand, the first half of the book is mostly geometry.  So it is not really taking 2 years for Pre-Calc.

[Mosaicmind]

Here's a great description from Art Reed as to why the advanced math book should take 2 years and not one year. It's not just one math course but 3 rolled into one book.

 

"ATTEMPTING THE ADVANCED MATHEMATICS TEXTBOOK IN A SINGLE YEAR: Since there are only 125 lessons in the textbook, it seems reasonable to assume this is possible.

RATIONALE: “My son had absolutely no trouble in the Algebra 2 book and I believe he will have no trouble in this book either. The book has fewer lessons than the Agebra 2 book has. Besides, he is a junior this year and we want him to be in calculus before he graduates from high school.â€

FACT: The second edition of John Saxon’s advanced mathematics textbook is tougher than any college algebra textbook I have ever encountered. The daily assignments in this book are not impossible, but they are time consuming and can take most math students more than several hours each evening to complete the thirty problems. This generally results in students doing just doing the odd or even numbered problems to get through the lessons. I must have said this a thousand times “Calculus is easy; students fail calculus because they do not understand the algebra.†Speeding through the advanced mathematics textbook by taking shortcuts does not allow the student the ability to master the advanced concepts of algebra and trigonometry to be successful in calculus. And if the only argument is that the student will not take calculus in high school, then what is the rush?

 

The DVD tutorial series for the second edition of John’s Advanced Mathematics book that I have prepared allows students three different choices based upon their needs and capabilities.

They can follow my advice and take the course in two years (doing a lesson every two days). Thereby gaining credit for the first academic year of “Geometry w/Advanced Algebra,†with a first semester credit for Trigonometry and a second semester credit for Pre-calculus in their second academic year. Or -

They can take the course in three semesters. Their first semester credit would be titled Geometry, followed by a second semester credit for Trigonometry w/Advanced Algebra; ending with a third semester credit for Pre-calculus.

 

- or-

While not recommended — they can take the entire 125 lessons in the Advanced Mathematics book in a single school year gaining credit for a full year of Geometry along with a semester credit for Trigonometry w/Advanced Algebra. In all the years that I taught the subject, I only had one student complete the entire Advanced Math course of 125 lessons in a single school year – with a test average above ninety percent - and she was a National Merit Scholar whose father taught mathematics with me at the local university.

The specific details of how the transcript is recorded are covered in my book, but if you have any questions regarding your son or daughter’s high school transcript, please feel free to send me an email." Art Reed Newsletter August 2015 copied from:

 

http://usingsaxon.com/newsletterpage-2015.php#0815

[FriedClams]

We use Saxon and are splitting the advanced math book over two years. We do a half lesson a day and the time requirement us about the same as algebra 2. My understanding is that year 1 is lesson 1-70, year 2 is 60-125. It moves FAST.

[OnMyOwn]

The way I understand it is this:

 

Year 1 -- Algebra 1

Year 2 -- Algebra  2

Year 3 -- Advanced Math (1st half)

Year 4 -- Advanced Math (2nd half)

 

From what I understand, the first half of the book is mostly geometry.  So it is not really taking 2 years for Pre-Calc.

 

That is a good point about the geometry.  I have heard varying things about when the geometry credit is earned.  I know Art Reed says after the first 60 lessons, but another class I was looking at said after the first 20.  

[OnMyOwn]

A little update . . .

 

I had my dd take the diagnostic exam for Lial's Intermediate algebra and she got everything correct on the material that was covered in the first 9 chapters in Lial's, but couldn't do much with the material for the last 3 chapters of that book because she said Saxon hadn't covered it yet. We got similar results with Derek Owen's -- she aced the material on his algebra 2 exam for the first half of the year, but could do very little on the exam he gives for the second half of algebra 2. She said the material hadn't been covered and I'm inclined to believe her because she did so well on the portions of both exams that she did know, kwim? Though, Derek did say he has had students enter his precalc program after Saxon alg 2 and do fine, so that is a little puzzling.

 

I thought this comparison between the three programs might be interesting to others.

 

And I still don't know what we're going to do for precalculus, lol. At first, I thought we would definitely switch from Saxon since she didn't know a substantial portion of the material on both of the placement tests she took, but then I started to realize that she is very solid on what she said Saxon did cover.

 

Right now, she and I are just reading through Lial's, a chapter a day to solidify some of the bigger ideas and working to firm up her understanding of math terminology, which seems a bit weak. I got the idea to do that from the link someone had posted a few weeks ago about studying math like a foreign language and I can see where working on the terminology will really further her understanding and confidence. Then, we may try out Derek Owen's algebra 2 and work through a section she's already done in Saxon and then a few that she has not covered before and see what she thinks before making a final decision. If we do go with DO, I may copy EKS and watch the videos in advance so that I know what parts my dd would really benefit from watching in order to make the best use if her time. (I'm not sure if EKS mentioned her method in this thread or another.). So, now I am working on brushing up on my algebra 2, which is something I've regretted not doing this whole year.

[EKS]

A little update . . .

 

I had my dd take the diagnostic exam for Lial's Intermediate algebra and she got everything correct on the material that was covered in the first 9 chapters in Lial's, but couldn't do much with the material for the last 3 chapters of that book because she said Saxon hadn't covered it yet. We got similar results with Derek Owen's -- she aced the material on his algebra 2 exam for the first half of the year, but could do very little on the exam he gives for the second half of algebra 2. 

 

This is exactly what I would expect from a kid who has mastered Algebra I.  The last three chapters of the Lial book are essentially the only Algebra II material in the book.  And the second half of DO is where the stuff that is new for Algebra II starts.

Edited July 7, 2016 by EKS

[MatthewBlackwood]

If your daughter likes Saxon I'd stick with it. There are ways to make Saxon less "time consuming" for her as well. As long as she is understanding the concepts you could cut the problems that she does in half. I find that Saxon tends to include more practice than most kids need.

 

Matthew

 

Founder, UnLock Math

 

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[OnMyOwn]

This is exactly what I would expect from a kid who has mastered Algebra I. The last three chapters of the Lial book are essentially the only Algebra II material in the book. And the second half of DO is where the stuff that is new for Algebra II starts.

So you feel both Lial's intermediate algebra and saxon algebra 2 are really only covering algebra 1 material? That it interesting to think about. She did all of Saxon's algebra 2 and did well with it. Maybe Saxon actually covers a lot of what you're considering algebra 2 in their precalculus book? But then, I guess the next question is what is algebra 2 vs algebra 1? I was looking at Thinkwell's precalculus and the first half of their precalculus is algebra 2 and the second half is trig. When I was in high school, I took algebra 2 with trig, never took precalculus and then went straight to calculus in college.

 

Or, are you thinking my dd just didn't master the material in Saxon? It really does seem like she did and I sat through a lot of it with her and I could see why she wouldn't be able to answer the questions on DO second half of algebra 2.

Edited July 7, 2016 by OnMyOwn

[EKS]

So you feel both Lial's intermediate algebra and saxon algebra 2 are really only covering algebra 1 material? That it interesting to think about. She did all of Saxon's algebra 2 and did well with it. Maybe Saxon actually covers a lot of what you're considering algebra 2 in their precalculus book? But then, I guess the next question is what is algebra 2 vs algebra 1? I was looking at Thinkwell's precalculus and the first half of their precalculus is algebra 2 and the second half is trig. When I was in high school, I took algebra 2 with trig, never took precalculus and then went straight to calculus in college.

 

Or, are you thinking my dd just didn't master the material in Saxon? It really does seem like she did and I sat through a lot of it with her and I could see why she wouldn't be able to answer the questions on DO second half of algebra 2.

 

I have no experience with Saxon beyond 8/7.  But if she is solid with all but the last three chapters of Lial and the first half of DO then she is solid on Algebra 1.  And I should point out, this means that she is *also* solid on the first half of Algebra 2.  If she were to do Saxon Advanced Math, I assume that she would get the rest of Algebra 2 and all of precalculus.  But if you decide to switch to DO, I'd run through his Algebra 2 first before moving to his precalculus.

 

As for what Algebra 2 actually is--my sense is that the remedial college market thinks it is Algebra 1 on (a very low dose of) steroids whereas the high school market thinks it is pre-precalculus.  This is based on looking at several TOCs (and actual texts in some cases) of each type of book.

 

Here is my comparison of Lial and DO (scroll down to post 8).

[OnMyOwn]

I have no experience with Saxon beyond 8/7. But if she is solid with all but the last three chapters of Lial and the first half of DO then she is solid on Algebra 1. And I should point out, this means that she is *also* solid on the first half of Algebra 2. If she were to do Saxon Advanced Math, I assume that she would get the rest of Algebra 2 and all of precalculus. But if you decide to switch to DO, I'd run through his Algebra 2 first before moving to his precalculus.

 

As for what Algebra 2 actually is--my sense is that the remedial college market thinks it is Algebra 1 on (a very low dose of) steroids whereas the high school market thinks it is pre-precalculus. This is based on looking at several TOCs (and actual texts in some cases) of each type of book.

 

Here is my comparison of Lial and DO (scroll down to post 8).

Thanks, EKS. I always respect your opinion on things, so I appreciate your thoughts on this. If we do go with DO, we will definitely do at least the 2nd half of his algebra 2. I want her to be really solid before moving on. I may have her take the chapter test for each chapter, starting at the beginning and then start her wherever she gets less than a 90%. Or, if it looks like she'd benefit from the whole thing, we'll do that.

 

Right now, my dd's saying she wants to major in engineering and minor in psych. Who knows what she'll wind up doing, but I want to make sure that is an option for her down the road.

[OnMyOwn]

I have no experience with Saxon beyond 8/7. But if she is solid with all but the last three chapters of Lial and the first half of DO then she is solid on Algebra 1. And I should point out, this means that she is *also* solid on the first half of Algebra 2. If she were to do Saxon Advanced Math, I assume that she would get the rest of Algebra 2 and all of precalculus. But if you decide to switch to DO, I'd run through his Algebra 2 first before moving to his precalculus.

 

As for what Algebra 2 actually is--my sense is that the remedial college market thinks it is Algebra 1 on (a very low dose of) steroids whereas the high school market thinks it is pre-precalculus. This is based on looking at several TOCs (and actual texts in some cases) of each type of book.

 

Here is my comparison of Lial and DO (scroll down to post 8).

I just took a look at your Lial and DO comparison chart and see that I "liked" it when you first posted it. That thread is encouraging to read and makes me hope that my dd likes DO.

[OnMyOwn]

This is for anyone using Saxon who read my dd's test reslts with DO algebra 2's final exam. Do not be discouraged by my dd's test results. I posted them because I was actually feeling like her results weren't too bad considering DO is supposed to be a tougher program and each publisher has a different scope and sequence until EKS' comments that dd's results reflected a mastery of algebra 1 only. Well, that was discouraging to hear, lol. But then I thought about how DO said he had students use his precalc coming from Saxon 2 without any problems. So, I went back and took a look at the test.

 

There were 4 pages of problems for the second half of the exam and she got the first page correct. There were 4 problems with material she has not yet covered at all yet. The rest of the material consisted of topics she had covered in Saxon, but DO took them one step further than Saxon had or used a format we had not seen before. For example, dd has learned log10 and natural log, but there were problems with Log2 and Saxon has not hit on that. My dd hadn't been able to do the sin, cos and tan problems because of the way they were presented on the test even though she knows how to do all those calculations. I would not be surprised if other Saxon 2 students were able to do those because I know my dd "skimmed" those topics in Saxon and I had planned to go back and make sure she understood the meaning behind the calculations.

 

I also went back and looked at Lial's and it was the last two chapters that my dd didn't complete the diagnostic exam for. Again, there were some Log2 problems in one of the chapters, graphing circles and a math symbol that we had never seen before.

 

Anyway, we're going to finish up reviewing with Lial's this week and then maybe try DO for the rest of the summer before making a decision on whether we'll continue with Saxon or switch over to DO.

[Janeway]

One of the

Edited July 11, 2016 by Janeway

[Janeway]

One of the

[Mosaicmind]

Our experience with Saxon has been nothing but good, but we also do it exactly as Art Reed says to do it in his book. We've had 5 kids graduate and all of them say that Saxon made doing math in high school in the public schools so easy. Our oldest used Saxon at home even though she was doing something else in school. Once she got accepted at Purdue two years after her high school graduation she took a test of theirs and got credit for all the math she was required to take except for her statistics in psychology, which is its own math and is much different than plain stats (I've had to take 2 different psych stats for my degrees).

 

I would have to disagree with one poster who said she heard Saxon was good for only regurgitating math facts and how to do problems in only one way. Our son who graduated in May found out he got a 4 on his AP Calculus BC test this year and he says that it was more doing Saxon at home and using our Saxon books to study with that helped him than what he was being taught in his class in school. He's been told by the college that he is applying to for the fall of 2017 (he's going to Africa for 6 months during this year) that he will probably not have to take any math classes at all depending on if he sticks with the major that he's already said he wants to pursue.

 

So, for our family Saxon has been the best choice and what's gotten my kids to understand not only how to do math but understand the whys. My kids would all tell you that they could do problems differently with no problems. It's not been easy. I made them do every problem in each lesson, we never skipped lessons, we did every test, we didn't skip books, and if it took them over an hour to do math then that's what we did. I always told them that if they could spend over an hour to practice a sport, learn a new computer game, or play their war games on their Xbox then they could spend over an hour to do a math lesson. In my opinion, it shouldn't be a big deal if math is taking longer than expected if the student is learning it. What you put into something is what you will get out of it.