Math curriculum for adhd

[Elwoodfive]

I am looking for a math program for my 7 year old. He has some issues with focus especially in math. We have been using Math Mammoth and he is working at the 3rd grade level, he has no trouble understanding the math and often gets it instantly or just does the problems easily in his head. The problem is we spend lots of frustrated hours just complete assignments Bc his focus is all over the place. I have tried reducing the workload, covering all but one problem, rewards, things like that but still I have to stand right over him to keep him on task and math takes forever to do. It's not the math it's his focus. I have downloaded samples of teaching textbooks and he seems to focus much better being presented with one problem at a time, and being able to type the answers. But I am concerned about the reviews I have heard about teaching textbooks for children who are gifted in math. Does anyone have any suggestions as to curriculum here? I also have a struggling 6th grader and gifted 4th grader so eliminating some struggle and frustration for my adhd son will allow me to help them too. So my concern is how to help my son focus on his work without slowing his learning down there. I have read about moving them up a grade in TT but will it be too slow after that? Does anyone have experience w TT or other programs that may help?

[EKS]

I would sit next to him at a table with a medium sized whiteboard in front of you.  Write a problem on the whiteboard and have him solve it (either orally with you writing or by writing himself), erase, and repeat.  Redirect his attention as necessary.  Do not expect him to do any work independently.

 

If MM is working otherwise, I'd stick with it and just modify it as I suggested above.  If there are other issues, you might want to look at either Singapore or Beast Academy.  I would not use TT with a child who is gifted in math.  

[Targhee]

It can be so frustrating knowing your child's ability and their performance not matching that ability. You want them to reach their potential.

 

I don't have experience with MM or TT first hand. I do have both ADHD kids and gifted kids (not as extreme as some other 2e kids). I think there are lots of things you can consider. But can I ask some more about your learner to get an idea of what might be best?

 

Does your child have an ADHD diagnosis? I ask because while it may be ADHD it may just be age related and engagement related (i.e. child is bored or doesn't see the point, child's learning style isn't met).

 

Is your child accelerated only in math (are reading skills commensurate with the math work you are doing)?

 

Does your child have difficulty with attending in math only or other subjects too?

 

Does your child have trouble with following directions you give (multi step) in other areas?

 

Some other things to consider

- what is your child's learning style and is it congruous with MM or TT?

- there are other ways besides acceleration to give gifted students enrichment and challenge (go deep, go broad instead of just fast)

- some kids need physical presence (you at elbow) in order to be productive

[Janeway]

TT is the worst thing you can do for ADHD. With ADHD, screen time makes it worse. TT will make life much more difficult.

 

Oddly, my child who cannot seem to focus and is all over the place, he is a Wiggle Willy, he loves Singapore Math. It is interesting enough and varied enough to keep his attention. The lessons are not long. The work he does himself is in a workbook so he likes not having to copy problems.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Janeway

[EKS]

TT is the worst thing you can do for ADHD. With ADHD, screen time makes it worse. TT will make life much more difficult.

 

Oddly, my child who cannot seem to focus and is all over the place, he is a Wiggle Willy, he loves Singapore Math. It is interesting enough and varied enough to keep his attention. The lessons are not long. The work he does himself is in a workbook so he likes not having to copy problems.

 

This!

 

My tutoring student, who is 2E with ADHD being one of the Es, used TT last year and it was a bad match for him.  The "buddies" even with the sound off were extremely distracting.  

 

I had a similar experience with Singapore math with my older son (who is also 2E, with dyslexia and possibly ADHD).  He had a much easier time focusing on the harder problems.

[Elwoodfive]

It can be so frustrating knowing your child's ability and their performance not matching that ability. You want them to reach their potential.

 

I don't have experience with MM or TT first hand. I do have both ADHD kids and gifted kids (not as extreme as some other 2e kids). I think there are lots of things you can consider. But can I ask some more about your learner to get an idea of what might be best?

 

Does your child have an ADHD diagnosis? I ask because while it may be ADHD it may just be age related and engagement related (i.e. child is bored or doesn't see the point, child's learning style isn't met).

 

Is your child accelerated only in math (are reading skills commensurate with the math work you are doing)?

 

Does your child have difficulty with attending in math only or other subjects too?

 

Does your child have trouble with following directions you give (multi step) in other areas?

 

Some other things to consider

- what is your child's learning style and is it congruous with MM or TT?

- there are other ways besides acceleration to give gifted students enrichment and challenge (go deep, go broad instead of just fast)

- some kids need physical presence (you at elbow) in order to be productive

Thank you, no he has not been diagnosed and I am not going to have him diagnosed, although the medical and school professionals we have been around have said he could be, I don't use the term around him but used it so you all would understand. This is our first year homeschooling, his teachers were not able to get much out of him in school and he spent most of his time sitting out or in the office, or just not working. He is well above grade level in reading and he did 3rd grade grammar and spelling with no problems, he is very creative and detailed in writing. He is probably most gifted in math, he breaks numbers up in his head naturally like MM teaches. He struggles with any copy work, having to look back and forth to write, being told two or more things at once, he writes letters and numbers backwards often, but the main issue is focus, staying in his seat, staying on task, he is distracted by everything, even his pencil, he often will forget what he is doing mid task. He is very compliant and rarely obstinate. But math and copy work seem to be what he gets distracted worst in.

[wapiti]

First, regarding the big picture:  it's impossible to know for sure that adhd is the issue here without any actual information.  Too many symptoms of adhd overlap with too many other issues.  It could be some combination of giftedness, developmental vision issues, sensory needs, etc.  Without knowing more, it's a little hard to make suggestions.

 

Second, unfortunately I wouldn't expect any 7 y.o. to work independently in math, least of all a very bright one with a history of difficulty staying on task.

 

For math programs, Kai had great suggestions - try MM working together first and definitely try a white board!  Also make sure he is placed appropriately and compact lessons and allow him to test out of whole chapters whenever possible.  Alternatively, consider Singapore and of course Beast Academy.  Based on what you've written, I would strongly recommend looking at Beast.

 

(I have a child very much like the one you describe - now 13 - and I wish Beast had been around when he was that age, though he probably would have preferred only the practice books.  By the time Beast came out, he was starting AoPS Prealgebra and he felt too old for the beasts.)

 

Good luck!  Been there done that and still doing it - even now, there are some days I need to stay nearby to keep him on track with his geometry homework  :tongue_smilie:

Edited May 19, 2016 by wapiti

[Elwoodfive]

Thank you all, I am not concerned w the label, just that he gets what he needs, maybe I am expecting to much from him to work independently, but I also need to be able to step away to help the other two. I will check out your suggestions. Lots to learn in this homeschooling thing 😉

[PinkyandtheBrains.]

Most seven year old children will not be working independently, even neurotypical seven year olds.

 

 

I know you don't want the label.

 

But a correct label really helps in knowing how to appropriately help a student/child. 

 

 

My ADHD (and other fun stuff) kids have used Singapore, Math Mammoth, and Art of Problem Solving.  Smaller amounts of work at a time, and physical activity between sit down sessions helped. We medicate now, but didn't when they were that young.  They are 13 and 16 now.

[Targhee]

Thank you all, I am not concerned w the label, just that he gets what he needs, maybe I am expecting to much from him to work independently, but I also need to be able to step away to help the other two. I will check out your suggestions. Lots to learn in this homeschooling thing 😉

I think you may be right about expecting too much of him for independent work. Most 7 year olds are still building up stamina to work for very long on the same thing and to work without consistent redirection to the task. I liked the above idea of doing problems together using the white board. I firmly believe that the dividends for teacher-intensive learning are often large but come later. If you have to be selective with where your teacher time is invested, invest it in his areas of struggle.

 

I know you are not looking for a label. I think the questions about him, and about the possibility of ADHD are brought up because successfully helping him is dependent on why he is having a hard time. Giftedness can often have ADHD like symptoms, and you can be both gifted and ADHD. You can have a learning disability like dyslexia, dyscalcula, or other condition that can manifest in distractibility or inattention like CAPD, SPD, NVLD or ASD. It could be trouble with working memory, or visual tracking. And just as an aside, a "label" isn't just the power of name, it is like finding a piece of a puzzle - it helps you to see more clearly what is behind the behavior, difficulty, or strength and to remediate it and take advantage of it. You may want to seek our evaluations now or in the future. I think you will find a good number of parents wished they would have done evaluations earlier (saves you from banging you heard against the wall because what you try to do ins't working).

 

So, that same brilliance that came up with manipulating numbers intuitively is probably hard at work on his pencil, or whatever else is distracting him. You don't want to squash that, just encourage focus time. Work in short bursts. At age 7 you could work 5-10 minutes of math problems followed by 5 minutes of a certain game or toy (one that can be played with in short intervals of time, perhaps even a special toy for "brain breaks"). Then, back to 5-10 minutes more of math, and 5 minutes of play. You can set up fun timers, visual timers are especially helpful.

 

Another thing that 7 year old boys need, especially if they do have ADHD, is some running around. Indoor trampoline, somersaults down the hallway, swinging, riding a bike or scooter, kicking a ball, etc. all are good ways to get your neurotransmitters firing so you can then move on to your work.

 

Consider your child's learning style. I don't just mean auditory vs kinesthetic vs visual - that is only one dimension to look at. Some kids do better at a desk, others do better on the floor. Some kids need background noise or music, others need quiet. Some kids work best with a little snack or something to fidget with. Some may work best in the morning and others at night. I highly recommend The Way They Learn by Cynthia Ulrich Tobias as a book for helping you discover the different dimensions of learning style and what will work best for your child.

 

Many gifted kids don't want straight forward math, but something that is more challenging because it then is more intresting. Some other curricula to consider if MM isn't working: Singpapore Primary Mathematics, Beast Academy, MEP. None of these is hands-off, but Beast Academy is probably the most self directed while MEP is the most teacher intensive. They all include more challenging problems, MEP and BA include more puzzle-type problems and advanced topics. My ADHD gifted kids like BA, they like Singapore too but not as well as BA. We haven't tried MEP but may use the middle grades next year for my DS. My most math-gifted child was too old for BA, and used Singapore until start AOPS books. She is very math intuitive, but would take for-ev-er to get her problems done because of distractibility. One thing I did was reduced the number of problems to do. If she could answer one of the hardest problems in the set correctly she would only have to do a few.

 

Have you looked into any math enrichment? A Math Circle perhaps? Fun books like Penrose the MAthematical Cat and Math Mansion, Sir Cumference, etc. Even if the math is below or the reading below, there can still be enrichment happening. There are activity books too like Family Math, Zaccharo books, Moebius Noodles, Patty Paper Geometry, etc.

 

So, in summary:

- don't expect much independence in output yet

- evaluations and diagnoses are ways of understanding why struggles and strengths exist so you can approach them in the best way

- work in short sessions

- use exercise/exertion to boost concentration

- find our your child's learning style and set them up to succeed by teaching to it

- rigorous math like Singapore PM, BA, and MEP can be more engaging for gifted learners

- reduce unnecessary problems in the problem set

- consider enrichment as a way of feeding his math gift

 

Best Wishes in your homeschool adventures!

Edited May 20, 2016 by Targhee

[sbgrace]

I skimmed the replies, and I agree with others that many 7 year olds with no underlying issues aren't going to be independent in math.

 

My son has ADHD, among other things, and math has always been the most difficult focus area for him.

 

Someone mentioned sitting with him and using a white board. I did that for most of my son's early years. My son used to do a problem, jump on the mini-trampoline, do a problem or two, jump, etc.   When you know he's mastered whatever Math Mammoth is teaching in that lesson you can just stop. You can also just stop if he's just mentally too checked out. He won't know you've shortened the lesson, and your lessons will feel more successful to both of you. End on a high note, before he's gone. Keep math short, maybe splitting it into two short lessons if that works for better. I still split my son's lessons.

 

My son is doing well with CLE right now, FWIW, and he did pretty well with Singapore Math in Focus and the white board for his elementary years.  But I wouldn't change curriculum given Math Mammoth is working. I would just change my methods.

Edited May 20, 2016 by sbgrace

[Elwoodfive]

Thank you all, this has been very encouraging, i haven't thought about excercise breaks, just getting up and walking around the room is always full of spins, rolls, and jumps. He does say he likes rewards but seems to quickly forget they are available so they don't seem to help. He loves silly stories, I had been told of Life of Fred as a supplement as well. Do any of you have tips or strategies on just helping him to focus and get self control? He cries about not wanting to act like a baby and wanting friends and has struggled to make friends his age. He wants to do better and be like his siblings, who tend to get frustrated with him.

[LMCme]

Just to second something that's already been said -- getting evaluated for ADHD isn't about the diagnosis, it's more about making sure it isn't something else that can be specifically addressed.  As a family doctor, I see a lot of kids because the school thinks they have ADHD who are completely normal (usually boys who just need more activity that is commonly provided in schools these days), others who have a sensory issue that responds well to occupational therapy or glasses, and a very few who actually have ADHD.  If you are worried about your child feeling like something is wrong with him because he needs evaluation, you can do the eval with someone other than a doctor or psychiatrist, and tell him it's to help figure out his strengths and weaknesses. 

 

Best,

LMC

[Freedom]

FWIW, my soon to be 7 DS is very similar. You've been given great advice (I read most, not all so forgive me if someone suggested this). We use MM and he is gifted in math but cannot sit still and focus. So I instituted 10 minute breaks between every 2 subjects. I always do math third, right after our first break and it's transformed our day. The one exception is if he goes to bed late and then we're back to no focus, floppy, wiggly and then I just have to drag us through the day.

[maize]

Not curriculum, but I have a couple of ADHD kids who have done really well using the prodigy math game for practice. I can input specific assignments for them to work on and the game aspect keeps their attention.

 

It's free but more fun with a membership; that's only about $14 for a year if you get in on a group buy.

[OneStepAtATime]

I agree with others, it might REALLY help to get an evaluation through the private sector, not to get a label but to get answers.  There are about a zillion things that could be at issue here and lots of areas of strength, too.  Many of those things can be addressed and the earlier the more likely they can be addressed successfully.  Not having answers, only assumptions, means you may waste a TON of time trying to help him without the right tools to be successful.  It is kind of like trying to tie your shoes with one hand tied behind your back.  

 

I also agree that physical activity may help, even if that means he needs to run around the house or jump on a mini trampoline every 15 minutes or whatever it takes to get him through academics.   You might set a timer.  Let him do something very physically active for 5 minutes, then write the math problem on a dry erase board .  Work through it with him.  If he is still focused, do another problem.  Then let him do something physical.  Maybe incorporate an apprenticeship and have him training on some sort of house chore.  He can take a moment to work on learning that chore (do things the same way each time in the same order for him to "master" his chore and keep things positive, upbeat, lots of praise) in between lessons.  Eventually, he will learn to do it independently and you can send him off to do it while you work with your other kids.

[sbgrace]

Thank you all, this has been very encouraging, i haven't thought about excercise breaks, just getting up and walking around the room is always full of spins, rolls, and jumps. He does say he likes rewards but seems to quickly forget they are available so they don't seem to help. He loves silly stories, I had been told of Life of Fred as a supplement as well. Do any of you have tips or strategies on just helping him to focus and get self control? He cries about not wanting to act like a baby and wanting friends and has struggled to make friends his age. He wants to do better and be like his siblings, who tend to get frustrated with him.

 

:grouphug: Social effects of ADHD were the main reason we finally tried medication, eventually settling on short acting Ritalin. I wish now I had done it long ago.

 

But, generally--getting enough sleep (if he snores get evaluated for sleep apnea) and lots of exercise can help.

 

The self control you are talking about--it is impulsiveness or emotional regulation or something else?

[PeterPan]

Thank you, no he has not been diagnosed and I am not going to have him diagnosed, although the medical and school professionals we have been around have said he could be, I don't use the term around him but used it so you all would understand. This is our first year homeschooling, his teachers were not able to get much out of him in school and he spent most of his time sitting out or in the office, or just not working. He is well above grade level in reading and he did 3rd grade grammar and spelling with no problems, he is very creative and detailed in writing. He is probably most gifted in math, he breaks numbers up in his head naturally like MM teaches. He struggles with any copy work, having to look back and forth to write, being told two or more things at once, he writes letters and numbers backwards often, but the main issue is focus, staying in his seat, staying on task, he is distracted by everything, even his pencil, he often will forget what he is doing mid task. He is very compliant and rarely obstinate. But math and copy work seem to be what he gets distracted worst in.

 

 

First, regarding the big picture:  it's impossible to know for sure that adhd is the issue here without any actual information.  Too many symptoms of adhd overlap with too many other issues.  It could be some combination of giftedness, developmental vision issues, sensory needs, etc.  Without knowing more, it's a little hard to make suggestions.

 

 

Wapiti is, as usual, very correct and giving you good advice.   :)  The copying issues you're describing indicate he may well have a retained reflex.  The STNR will affect midline and vision, specifically resulting in problems copying.  He should have an OT eval by someone experienced in looking for retained reflexes.  There are some other reflexes that, when retained, make it uncomfortable to sit.  While I'm ok with meds for ADHD, it seems like it's better to solve the problem than medicate for it when everything else is satisfactory.   ;)  So I would start with an OT eval.  Sometimes you can find a developmental optometrist who screens for and treats retained reflexes.  You never know.  And once you treat the retained reflexes, I would DEFINITELY get his eyes checked by a developmental optometrist to make sure the vision problems (and the resulting cascade of problems) are improved.  If they are not, they can do VT for that.  COVD.org is where you find a developmental optometrist.

 

Since you have clear indication of physical problems, I would get those dealt with.  Then consider a psych eval for what remains.  As the others said, it's about WAY more than the label.  He sounds QUITE bright, and documenting that can get him access to things.  (Davidson, gifted programs in the schools, etc.)  He might have some holes you're not anticipating.  Sometimes it's nice just to have the right words, rather than assuming.  You'd also learn about executive function, etc.  

 

As the others said, in general, if you confirm the ADHD and he's having significant trouble in spite of thorough OT and vision treatment, I would consider meds.  

 

I do think you've got physical problems underlying what's going on.  I think you could be doing a lot more INTERACTIVE math like Family Math.  I think at that age I was doing with some of the Math Olympiad books AOPS sells.  I think that's wishful thinking to think he'll do TT independently.  We had a lot of math not done when we tried that, and eventually I realized I had to sit with her.  So no that probably isn't your ideal match.  BJU was really good for us, because it's one that can be done together, on a whiteboard.  I'm all about the whiteboard!  If you really like how MM is clicking with his brain, you might try blowing up the pages bigger, like printing them onto 11X17 paper or something, and then using colored markers.  Or scribe for him onto the regular paper and use colored markers.  You're going to have to punch it up.  Or pull the whole pdf into a pdf editor on an ipad and let him type his answers.  

Edited May 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Thank you all, this has been very encouraging, i haven't thought about excercise breaks, just getting up and walking around the room is always full of spins, rolls, and jumps. He does say he likes rewards but seems to quickly forget they are available so they don't seem to help. He loves silly stories, I had been told of Life of Fred as a supplement as well. Do any of you have tips or strategies on just helping him to focus and get self control? He cries about not wanting to act like a baby and wanting friends and has struggled to make friends his age. He wants to do better and be like his siblings, who tend to get frustrated with him.

 

Forgetting the rewards, what his options are, etc. is EF (executive function).  He sounds like he could use more structure.  Structure is the buzzword psychs, schools, etc. use, but it definitely would help here.  You could use choice boards, visual schedules, clear structure.  YOU are going to have to follow through.

 

I'm concerned about your comments that he may act like a baby, struggle to make friends, etc.  These are very REAL reasons to get evals!!  You're saying you don't want a psych eval and want labels, but HE is saying he wants answers and wishes he didn't have these behaviors.  So he is struggling with the lack of explanation, which HURTS, while you're saying it would hurt to get the label!  And what is hidden within "tend to get frustrated with him"?  I'm just saying that can have some stuff you're unwrapping there.  When you've got a kid that advanced with EF issues and maybe social delays, that could come out a variety of ways with evals.  And right now you're saying evals would label him, labels are terrible, but he's ALREADY dealing with the problems that come from a LACK of labels!

 

So flip that scenario.  My ds is gifted.  My ds was initially diagnosed ADHD-inattentive (obviously not accurate) with social delay and SLDs.  The school said our explanations were not complete, so we got more evals and they bumped it to ASD with ADHD-combined type.  Now he's getting social skills interventions.  Do you know how AMAZING it is to do social skills interventions with kids this age?  My ds is 7, like yours.  It's ASTONISHING.  They bring this entire cognitive level to bear on how they process the information.  And it doesn't matter whether the label is ADHD or ASD or NVLD or just gifted, the social skills interventions are the SAME!!!  

 

I'm saying if you got some evals, got connected with help, this is something that could CHANGE!!  Your bright 7 yo does not have to feel like he can't control himself, can't understand what Zone of Regulation he is in, can't understand how others feel about his actions or how to make better choices. He's super bright and he CAN understand those things.  All it takes is someone who does the Social Thinking.com materials with him.  Could be you, an OT/SLP, a behaviorist, anyone who has the materials and makes the effort.  Socialthinking - Getting Started

Edited May 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[PeterPan]

Another thing that has really helped my ds is gymnastics.  He's at the Y most days doing something, and the gymnastics especially is TERRIFIC for kids with lots of energy, a need to crash, impulsivity, etc.  Whatever *can* be done on the child's part volitionally to get that under control and reigned in, they'll figure out in gymnastics.  My ds is on team, so he's had to learn to wait in line, be very attentive to his body, etc.  They do lots of games with false starts in the lower levels, that works a lot on that impulsivity!  And of course the gymnastics itself, with all that crashing, is just super input for their sensory system.  Without that, my ds is, well he's just REALLY physical in the house, crashing into things.  So you really can't have too much of that.  We do gymnastics and swimming.  We've done Crossfit and he REALLY liked that, wow.  They changed their schedule for the summer and it doesn't work for us, sniff.

Edited May 21, 2016 by OhElizabeth

[SarahW]

Labels can really help. My DH was diagnosed last year as ADHD. He's over 40 years old. And it was just such a relief. He said something to me along the lines of "Now I know I'm not just some big dummy for not being able to figure out how the world works." Also, when he runs into "issues" at work, or in our relationship, or whatever he has something concrete to put into google to get advice and start asking himself healthy, helpful questions like "am I being too rigid? is the environment overtaxing my concentration? am I really overfocussing on this one thing?" 

 

We ran into DH's elementary school teacher shortly after his diagnosis and they enjoyed catching up about life, and DH mentioned that he got diagnosed as ADHD Inattentive and the teacher exclaimed "oh yes! definitely! that's totally you!" It was kind of funny, but also infuriating. If she saw his problems why didn't she say something? Why didn't she do something? Why did it take seeking out a psychologist for anxiety and depression in his 40's for someone to finally clue him in?

 

ADHD isn't just a matter of being hyper or not being able to focus. There are very real pre-frontal cortex issues going on which affect a vast array of issues. For a while I thought my DH had dyscalculia, numbers don't make any sense to him. He got put on the "short bus" and sent to special classes because he was so bad at math in school. But I'm starting to realize that he probably doesn't have dyscalculia at all, he just has enormous problems with sequencing. Not being able to handle sequences is a real problem in math, but it's a problem with lots of other things as well. If he had had a teacher who saw the ADHD and understood how it could manifest, he could maybe have gotten support for this issue and been able to advance in math. But since that didn't happen his education was derailed for a very long time. Getting a diagnosis, and a full evaluation that looks for these sorts of issues, would enable you to head off these sorts of problems.

 

My DS (who is also probably ADHD, but evaluations take for---ever) didn't like MM. It actually made him cry. I'm not really sure what he hated about it, but oh well, there was no salvaging it. He really likes BA, but he also like GN's in general, so math GN's are just icing. The guides help him tolerate the practice pages. He's also liking Prodigy, I just let the game place him and move him through the topics. Now that he is older and his reading has picked up he's also enjoying reading the Murderous Maths books. You could also try the Key to... series. They don't have much depth, but some math gifted kids like working through them. My kid prefers big concepts, so I've started scouring the math sections at bookstores and libraries and throwing books at him and seeing what stick. Metaphorical throwing, not literal, but sometimes I feel like literally throwing, because this whole "not linear" thing he has going on with math drives me a bit batty.

Edited May 21, 2016 by SarahW

[Elwoodfive]

Thank you all, I will look into your suggestions and links, we have started gymnastics and he loves it!